Eida vs Aizen

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keyrushmeister

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Poll Eida vs Aizen (212 votes)

Eida turns Aizen to a simp 47%
Aizen trolls her 48%
Stalemate 4%
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Eida has knowledge

Aizen is in-character

Energy equalized, Eida can see Aizen

Start from 30 feet

Who would win ?

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Futureisbest

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#151  Edited By Futureisbest

wait so it depends on whoever hits first right? Does any of these characters have Resistance to TP?

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Futureisbest

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So with Senrigan she can see into the past of anyone without being present there? Wow that's pretty broken, I'm gonna have to give it to her then. She can passively make Aizen not Crush her with his spiritual pressure, the minute the fight start Aizen is going to try to make a move on her, then his heart ripped out. So she wins here. This isn't trasncended Aizen neither seeing the version the OP use so there can't be any argument for him right at this point and time he won't even say SK gg,.

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uchihaghost

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#153  Edited By uchihaghost

@saxz said:

@uchihaghost:

What?? When did I say KS KO'd an opponent, I said some Genjutsu KO's opponents by showing them traumatic images. Kakashi/Sakura bell test, Sasuke/Sakura , Sasuke/cee, Kakashi/Anbu and so on....... Aizen hasn't done that because it's not his style, but are you implying KS can't conjure traumatic images like Sasuke being impaled by multiple kunais.

Kakashi bell test genjutsu was not 3 tomoe genjutsu, and Aizen never KO'ed anyone with KS lol at it not being his style, its a different feat altogether, thats like me saying anyone with 3 tomoe genjutsu can alter the time perception of their opponennts and fall back on "its not their style so they didn't do it" thats not an argument bruh, its either he is implied to be capable of doing or he has feats, or a statement atleast, but Aizen has none of that, so stop giving him feats of things he has never done please.

2. With genjutsu one can enter the subconsciousness of their targets minds and even affect them on that level (like hebi sasuke suppressing kurama chakra inside naruto)

Yes which is why I gave it a point for its mind control abilities above KS.

Good to know

Yep this proves you weren't listening to shit and just jumped defensively ,if not you would know this wasn't about resistance. Resistance is a seperate ability from mind hax(although not entirely) but you can easily have mind hax resistance without having mind hax abilities.

The conversation started comparing both mind hax , strictly on mind hax abilities.

Yea okay, strictly mind hax 3 tomoe genjutsu is still superior regardless.

4. 3 tomoe genjutsu can outright control the opponent (obito controlled yagura, itachi controlled a random woman, sasuke controlled manda, madara controlled kurama etc), KS on the otherhand can't control anyone.

Points for mind control. I said this.

Entering the mind of an opponent and controlling the mind of an opponent are 2 different things, you accepted both points so it should be 2 points for genjutsu and 0 for KS.

5. With genjutsu one can strike fear in the hearts of characters that don't even have feelings (hebi sasuke striking fear in sai).

With illusion Genjutsu? Don't recall the scene, but how dare you sai has emotions.

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6. With genjutsu one can paralyse the opponent

By showing them illusions of being bound.

Yea it still works and is something KS hasn't shown to be capable of doing, your statement and lack of aknowledgement of that being a feat implies that KS is capable of something similar, did something similar or is within what it can do, when it has no such feats, so another point for genjutsu.

7. Genjutsu can be used for reality simulation,this is the only thing KS does, lol at it being comparable to something that could do much more.

Only thing, lol. You have six point prior to this, but only 1 is valid point above KS and that's mind control.

I gave you points that are legit different forms of mind hax that genjutsu has over KS which you refuse to aknowledge, not really my problem, fact is fact, Genjutsu does way more than reality simulation which is what KS does.

8. 3 tomoe genjutsu can break the opponents will (like how madara broke the raikage's will as well as kid ohnoki someone with really strong will)

Break will how??

like how it broke the raikages will to fight, before ohnoki snapped the raikage out of it, another point for genjutsu.

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9. 3 tomoe genjutsu grants illusion resistance, from bouncing back illusion like itachi did, to seeing through illusions. KS does NOT

Redundant and irrelevant.

Its not irrelevant, 3 tomoe sharingan is more of a complete package when it comes to dealing with the mind in general (both offence and defence) unlike KS which is only offensive, so it is a point you don't want to aknowledge, though if this argument is strictly on offensive mind hax, i can agree its irrelevant, but not on the grand scheme of things, eitherway my point still stands that 3 tomoe genjutsu is superior to KS.

Not going into izanami or izanagi that alter ones fate or decides ones fate (fate manipulation) because they are still under 3 tomoe genjutsu as well.

Izanagi is something different from mind hax entirely, its.a form of fate manipulation so no need to bring it up, and Izanami is being used by only one person currently, the most advanced Genjutsu user in the series and the fact that you bring it up makes me sure you missed the point of the conversation

1. Izanagi was stated to be a genjutsu cast on oneself that is able to break the boundary between illusion and reality, you are basically making illusion reality with izanagi, its just that advanced that makes it capable of fate manipulation.

2. Izanami was not only used by itachi lol, when itachi used the jutsu he said it was spammed in was used in the past against izanagi users, it was an uchiha forbidden jutsu, saying only itachi can use it is wrong, pretty sure others like obito/madara can use it because they have studied the uchiha kinjutsu so they scale to it as well.

And again you said genjutsu can only be used on a single target, well thats headcanon, it was never stated, and there are more evidence supporting the contrary like;

I was talking about high end abilities like Tsukuyomi and Koto in contrast to KS when I said this not regular gen

Considering we are diving into 3 tomoe genjutsu strictly, i will ignore this.

- kakashi who is not an uchiha ko'ing to root members with his single 3 tomoe

- Sasuke neg diffing 9 bijuus

- obito trapping both Fuu and Torune in genjutsu at the same time for days.

- itachi being stated by Ao and shukaku to be capable of mass genjutsu

Bijuus are weak and susceptible to uchihas, but I agree to the rest. These are

Bijuus are susceptible to uchiha's because of genjutsu, not that genjutsu is an inherent weakness of the bijuu like senjutsu is to juubi jins, its just genjutsu is something they have no resistance over, like how anyone in the series without being a perfect jin is susceptible or bleach characters being susceptible to KS.

- other genjutsu techniques affecting multiple targets like;

• feather genjutsu affecting a whole stadium

• kabuto muugen onsa genjutsu affecting uchiha bros

• jmans genjutsu affecting 3 paths

• gengetsu's genjutsu affecting a whole platoon

• Cee's genjutsu affecting juugo and sasuke

• kurenai's genjutsu affecting itachi and kisame

• IT affecting the whole planet

• Kaguya affecting tens of thousands of people with IT before the moon amplifying it.

So all evidence shows genjutsu affects multiple targets at the same time

Oh boy, you're missing the point by a mile, do yourself a favor and actually read what brought about these arguments. LMAO.

My exact point which @Mannilman responds to was it's unfair to compare KS to Genjutsu, because KS is just one guy's ability Vs Genjutsu- an umbrella term used to refer to the mind hax of the entire verse. And you just proved the point of my argument with these section by filling the holes in some Genjutsu abilities by using other people Genjutsu abilities. Lol.

I can destroy 90% of your case against KS if I bring in other mind hax from bleach to fill in its limitations, like As Nodt, Pepe, Shinji and so on.

No its not unfair, even ignoring special cases like tsukiyomi/KA/infinite tsukiyomi and also other none sharingan genjutsu like sound genjutsu etc, 3 tomoe genjutsu pretty much has all the feats needed for this argument, and most of the feats are done with 3 tomoe anyways. I can strictly stick to 3 tomoe genjutsu showings and provide all evidences to what i have been saying.

On to your 3rd point, the only taxing genjutsu are MS based genjutsu and forbidden 3 tomoe genjutsu (izanami/izanagi), stop making things up, genjutsu was never stated to be taxxing, nobody ever in the series complained about using 3 tomoe genjutsu.

Again stop being clueless and follow the conversation, Taxing Genjutsu was referred as a weakness to the higher end Genjutsu...... 3 tomoe Genjutsu and the other non taxing feather Genjutsu arent as potent and they are easily broken or not so effective.

So if we are sticking to 3 tomoe genjutsu only, your argument that genjutsu is taxing is a moot point.

And how is something as easy as making eye contact requiring intense concentration LMAO,

Jiraiya and Chiyo made it clear about the whole process of casting and maintaining Genjutsu. I can't post scan atm but being a Naruto expert I bet you know what I am talking about.

Uuuh.... Neither chiyo nor jiraiya said genjutsu needs high concentration to cast, it comes off way easier than casting jutsu, genjutsu specialists have higher chakra control though (thats what jman said), but not that 3 tomoe genjutsu users require high concentration to cast genjutsu, thats your headcanon.

bruh STOP WITH THE LIES AND DOWNPLAY.

More than Half of this post is you just confusing yourself so I don't what to say. Go back and rewrite your post when you've gotten the basis of the argument.

Now that i know you are arguing for offensive mind hax and not defensive, and also 3 tomoe genjutsu specifically, what do you have to say about the rest of the points i've made regarding 3 tomoe genjutsu offensive tp feats???

i repeat, the only areas were KS is superior to genjutsu are;

1. Altering the time perception of the opponent (which does not matter in a fight, cuz nobody even cares about what time it is in the middle of a fight).

2. Longetivity (also hardly matters in a fight, cuz fights don't last centuries in most cases, regardless Aizen gets a point cuz his tp can still be in effect for over a century, and genjutsu only lasting some few years e.g obito controlling yagura for years, madara controlling kurama for years).

3. Easier to cast - just seeing EOS Aizen means you will be caught, thats 1 point i admit as being more in battle efficient than 3 tomoe genjutsu.

Meanwhile genjutsu is more versatile as a mind hax attack as stated and proven above.

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Saxz

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Sorry for the late reply, I bumped with......... Well everything,so..

@saxz:

Versatility absolutely gives you more battle advantages

That's true but sometimes it just don't. Take Kakashi for example who is the most versatile of shinobi out there, it barely gives him an advantage in some scenarios.

It doesn't have to be a scary image, you can just KO people or put them in a trance. Aizen can only really on imagery.

I have only ever see it done with illusions, or sometimes when the manga would just take the initiative and not show the illusions on panel, but I may be wrong, because it's well within the ability of mind control to make them sleep, so. I'll just ask for the scan.

Whether or not it can be broken depends on the skill of the caster vs to victim's. The energy study thing applies to KS as well everytime Aizen releases it gives of unique sensation that perceptive people like ichigo can notice. Yama also felt aizen's presence when he was stabbed.

Yeah but except it's some itachi tier shit whom I totally respect for being for being above Aizen, most Genjutsu can be broken easily. Sometimes if itachi doesn't try too hard his Genjutsu can be broken by pain, like kurenai simply biting her lips to snap out of itachi's Genjutsu.

Not true, we've seen sharingan genjutsu get cast on multiple targets already.

I meant the high end Genjutsu, but even Sharingan Genjutsu has a really low limit I have seen it control a few people at best and that's for a breif moment

That's a limitation of the user, not the ability. KS has the exact same issue where when some with much less stamina and concentration than Aizen (tokinade) used it, he could barely focus and had his stamina drained quickily.

this is a bit of a false equivalency, Tokinada is lesser than Aizen, so of course he's have drawbacks stealing other people abilities. If someone lesser than Itachi uses the ability I doubt they could even activate it much less use it.

Not really, his illusions are only active during the release. He's never actually kept it up for longer than a few days.

Nah I think his record is a few months, when he made a rando look like him and act as the vice captain while he was off doing whatever miles away .

Again, this isn't inherent to the ability. KS uses tons of energy, aizen just has a crazy amount so it doesn't matter. Its the same reason naruto spam a jutsu that normal drains the user to death.

If Tsukuyomi, Koto or whatever was a skill possessed by multiple people this would be a good point, but this is Aizen's KS VS whoever's Genjutsu.... Correction though, KS doesn't really use tons of energy as you put it, it's just that reiatsu is almost everything in bleach and Tokinada couldn't get KS to its full potential Because he has less reiatsu than Aizen, not that it was eating at his energy. Same with Ryujin jakka, the flames weren't as potent, not that it took more energy to make them..

Caster issue again. KS requires more energy for more people, aizen just has so much energy that he doesnt need to stress about it. Genjutsu would be the same.While a mid tier like kabuto can mind hax thousands a god tier can mind hax a whole planet.

Actually nothing says KS requires more energy for more people, anyone who falls for it, falls for it, any illusion Aizen conjures up fools anyone under the spell, it doesn't become more taxing the more people. This is a Huge misconception must be why you guys downplay KS a lot. Its more closer to Gengetsu (3rd Mizukage).

Good Kabuto can mind hax hundreds (not thousands) but his Genjutsu is weak definitely weaker than Tayuya and Kurenais which can be escaped by snapping yourself out with pain. That's a huge downside. That's what I don't get, and that's what started this conversation, why do you bring in other Genjutsu strength to fill out the limitations of another. Why does KS a single individual's ability have to be compared with the entire catalogue of mind hax from another verse.?? Either KS is that badass to warrant this or it's just plain unfair. If we're being fair then we Should just bring in the rest of bleach Mind hax to help out the limitations of KS

That just depends how perceptive the victim is. Unohana figured out something wasn't right just from examining his corpse and yama figured it out from a faint reiatsu from aizen.

Nope it's not the same thing, at all. Unohana is the highest class healer, so she can notice the subtle difference between a real corpse and something doctored to be one that's because of her extensive knowledge, because Aizen obviously wouldn't be able to make a perfect illusion of a corpse at not without the subtle hint to fool someone of unohana's caliber, Yama guessed, although that may just be the weakness of KS kicking in since he is touching the blade. Either way it's not something you know, The best you can do is guess and those two examples are weird they have context to them.

Illusions aren't nearly as common in bleach so most people don't know to question it. Meanwhile in naruto people are constantly aware that anything they see could be an illusion.

True... But being aware it's not the problem, Aizen basically broadcasted his ability at FKT and everyone was on high alert for illusions, but that didn't stop him from catching them unawares, his illusion is seamless, you only know when he wants you to know that's what makes it dangerous.

Agreed, Its definitely harder to be break than standard Sharingan Genjutsu

Yeah.

Again, depends on the caster.

True.

Still caster dependant. Also stronger individuals require more energy to keep KS up.

Misconception. KS consumes the same energy independent of the number of people. It's like a theatre/stage , Aizen is putting up a show the number of people watching is irrelevant to the show itself, he is not controlling each mind individually.

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Mike_Strike10

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#155  Edited By Mike_Strike10

I can't believe this is actually being debated lol.

Feats of her power affecting someone like Aizen????

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At this rate, Eida could walk through Bleachverse, LOL.

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Saxz

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ad regarding your argument on why KS is better, i will only agree with 1 or 2.

1. It lasts a very long time (madara controlled kurama for years, obito controlled yagura for years) though not as impressive as lasting a century, only IT would be better in that department.

2. Easier activation, sealed Aizen that merged with KS can activate KS easier than 3 tomoe genjutsu activation.

Thats about it, any other argument you gave is your headcanon, KS is NOT passive, otherwise ichigo would have been automatically caught, while its true it doesn't use much of Aizens reiatsu, its the same case with genjutsu, so i do not accept that as a reason for why KS is better. "can't be easily broken" is from the fact that the bleach verse have shit tier illusion resistance.

So yea based on the 9 points given on how versatile genjutsu is above KS, it should be superior.

1. He controlled him straight for years? Nah that would mean his Sharingan would be activated for years you're lying, it could very well mean he controlled him when he needed him, same with obito's case.

2.. once it's released anyone that looks at him(or his sword depending on the version) at that point has already fulfilled The condition of the spell and they'll be under that spell for as long as they live, except Aizen doesn't include on purpose like he did Ichigo. I guess semi passive is the word or passive isn't the right word at all, so I'll concede on that. My point is it's almost impossible to avoid without knowledge and unlike the sharingan after just one instant you're in it forever.

3. Uchihas casting anything high level is detrimental. The normal sharingan Genjutsu are way less potent than KS although they are more diverse. Uchihas can barely keep their Sharingan activated for hours, do you think they can Keep an illusion running on a thousand+ people for days. I'll like to see the scan that suggest that.

Bleach resistance is not that shit tier , you're just riding on Aizen trolling the verse with a simple monotone hax, but simple ≠ not potent. Jigen rode through the Narutoverse and all its versatility with something simple.

I am not trying to hype up their resistance because it's not really much but you're clearly downplaying. Tosen, Shinji, Pepe, Zommari, As Nodt, all had some level of mind hax that are more complex than KS and they got resisted. These guys mind hax aren't shit tier, Aizen's KS despite being simple is just that effective and difficult to break that's what you don't understand.

Walking through the bleachverse with no one breaking it with some willpower, power of friendship, I have more energy to release Bullshit is a feat for KS.

I don't know if you consider Narutoverse with "great tier illusion resistance" but KS would walk through 98% of the verse with no one able to break it and you can't prove otherwise but try mental gymnastics and draw some false equivalency. The remaining 2% that resist KS would be Uchihas(sharingans and its derivatives before you try a strawman), they are the only ones that have a genuine resistance. If you want to go on about fodders disturbing their Chakra that has absolutely nothing to do with KS, go right ahead but you won't be making any point.

I told you in the last post I am not comparing KS-an individual ability to Genjutsu (the collective mind hax of the verse). Except you admit KS is badass enough to warrant that.

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No genjutsu has a feat that can even approach ks working on the almighty.

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alextheboss

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@gilateen: @scp-939: Prove Eida is one of the cyborgs he is talking about. And if she is it could be including her ability. It was pretty much straight up stated that Code could have killed her if he wasn't controlled by her power. So she may be the most dangerous, but there is no proof she has the raw power to back it up.

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@uchihaghost:

Sorry for the weird pattern of the reply I am crazy busy and I have 7 minutes to respond to this, so I'll correct anything that isn't coherent later.

Kakashi bell test genjutsu was not 3 tomoe genjutsu, and Aizen never KO'ed anyone with KS lol at it not being his style, its a different feat altogether, thats like me saying anyone with 3 tomoe genjutsu can alter the time perception of their opponennts and fall back on "its not their style so they didn't do it" thats not an argument bruh, its either he is implied to be capable of doing or he has feats, or a statement atleast, but Aizen has none of that, so stop giving him feats of things he has never done please.

Belltest wasn't 3 tomoe? My bad, The rest still stands like showing the Anbu members Naruto's sexy jutsu to knock them out (IIRC so don't blame me if I don't) . And no I don't understand you, is it anything than literally showing the opponent traumatic illusions?? Then why can't Aizen do it. Or is it anything more than that....... Oh so You do know KS can time dialate, didn't realize that when you dolwnplayed it to VR. No it's not the same thing, answer my question can Aizen conjure up those traumatic illusions or not?

Yea okay, strictly mind hax 3 tomoe genjutsu is still superior regardless.

No it's not, even if you pull the whole versatility card, it's just not.

Entering the mind of an opponent and controlling the mind of an opponent are 2 different things, you accepted both points so it should be 2 points for genjutsu and 0 for KS.

I don't think it should be different, because you have to enter the mind to. Control it, but OK 2 points regardless., you just accepted time dilation so that's a point for KS.

Bijuus are susceptible to uchiha's because of genjutsu, not that genjutsu is an inherent weakness of the bijuu like senjutsu is to juubi jins, its just genjutsu is something they have no resistance over, like how anyone in the series without being a perfect jin is susceptible or bleach characters being susceptible to KS.

That's false... If that were the case every other Genjutsu user would just be a Bijuu tamer, every Genjutsu user would be to blame for Kyubi's attack on Konoha and yet all eyes were on the uchihas. Madara specifically said they were slaves to the uchihas not Genjutsu and Kurama confirms it when he met Sasuke and he had hate for the Sharingan. And I bet it's a tad bit similar case to the rinnegan being able to tame the Juubi,

Not to mention Sharingan is a variant of the doujutsu that created them.

That's several point pointing to Sharingan being the factor and none to random Genjutsu being able to tame them.

No its not unfair, even ignoring special cases like tsukiyomi/KA/infinite tsukiyomi and also other none sharingan genjutsu like sound genjutsu etc, 3 tomoe genjutsu pretty much has all the feats needed for this argument, and most of the feats are done with 3 tomoe anyways. I can strictly stick to 3 tomoe genjutsu showings and provide all evidences to what i have been saying

OK. We'll see about 3 tomoe, but I don't think so, if you want to tango with KS via sheer feats and potency then you'd need the high end Genjutsus.

Uuuh.... Neither chiyo nor jiraiya said genjutsu needs high concentration to cast, it comes off way easier than casting jutsu, genjutsu specialists have higher chakra control though (thats what jman said), but not that 3 tomoe genjutsu users require high concentration to cast genjutsu, thats your headcanon.

Higher control, right. I know he said it wasn't an easy thing to do , and higher control is something you have to focus to do but I'll concede on this point because I don't want to stonewall on semantics.

Yea it still works and is something KS hasn't shown to be capable of doing, your statement and lack of aknowledgement of that being a feat implies that KS is capable of something similar, did something similar or is within what it can do, when it has no such feats, so another point for genjutsu.

Aizen has Perfect hypnosis, he controls all 5 senses which means be can simulate anything he wants, including his opponents thinking they are being tied by a chain, you're assuming, he cant visualize a simple chain around someone or some weird pillar things going through someone, I know these are things he doesn't do but I want to know whats special about them that someone who manipulates 5 senses perfectly can't achieve.

Now that i know you are arguing for offensive mind hax and not defensive, and also 3 tomoe genjutsu specifically, what do you have to say about the rest of the points i've made regarding 3 tomoe genjutsu offensive tp feats???

I don't think defensive mind hax is a thing but OK. it's not really 3 tomoe specifically The crux of this was, KS was referred to as basic and low tier here, so I said cool bring me the low tier basic Genjutsu user that's running around performing greater than Aizen's feat. And to my surprise I was being answered with the entire Genjutsu catalogue. Yeah that means something.

Although I'll accept 3 tomoe as an individual ability since most Uchihas use it at almost the same level, I already gave my answers to your point pros and cons there's nothing that puts 3 tomoe above KS in sheer potency or battle applicabability.

i repeat, the only areas were KS is superior to genjutsu are;

1. Altering the time perception of the opponent (which does not matter in a fight, cuz nobody even cares about what time it is in the middle of a fight).

2. Longetivity (also hardly matters in a fight, cuz fights don't last centuries in most cases, regardless Aizen gets a point cuz his tp can still be in effect for over a century, and genjutsu only lasting some few years e.g obito controlling yagura for years, madara controlling kurama for years).

3. Easier to cast - just seeing EOS Aizen means you will be caught, thats 1 point i admit as being more in battle efficient than 3 tomoe genjutsu.

Meanwhile genjutsu is more versatile as a mind hax attack as stated and proven above.

1.well Aizen never used it in a fight so you can downplay however you want and I am not going to jump to conclusions either because that would be equally guilty but don't you tell me the concept of Altering time perception in a fight doesn't matter? If you reduce their time perception you can reduce their reaction speed. Which is mighty useful if used the right way.

2. Lol that's not the Longetivity I meant(mostly). What I meant is Aizen can keep his illusions rolling for months while having picnic miles away. I have yet to see an Uchiha who can maintain his illusions for 5 minutes straight. Hell considering how draining the Sharingan is, which basic Uchiha can keep it active all day??? Much less running a technique. Both the Obito and Madara scenario don't fly, Madara can just summon and control kyubi anytime he wants for the duration of the battle, no one says he literally has to run a Genjutsu for years (ignoring the whole Bijuu weakness) and Obito case is a bit vague but even with his hashi amps I don't think he could keep his Sharingan active for years,maybe he could do it but that's a feat specific to him because of his amp.

3. The major point is that it isn't easy to break, itachi may catch someone in a Genjutsu but if he gets distracted or his Sharingan deactivates then he has to recast it on that person again if it's a group fight this is a strong possibility ... While Aizen can just troll you for life after one meeting because he doesn't need a recast.

4. Aizen can run his illusions from a distance, he doesn't have to be present. He literally trolled Shinji (his captain at the time) and his entire division for a month by leaving a dummy Vice captain, while he himself was running business hundreds of miles way. Repeated it with his fake death

5. Sixth sense, KS illusions can fool the sixth sense, which is energy/aura sensing in this case, Genjutsu has no such feats. points for KS, you're gonna say sensors were placed under IT, cool highest level Genjutsu, but that's not even the counter, Naruto sensors are rare and the ones who do have don't use theirs passively, it's a jutsu they have to activate, you can tell with Tobirama not sensing Madara, Minato and so on. Karin's case is a bit special but I have seen her also activating a jutsu to sense. Either way by the time they are caught in a Genjutsu it's too late. So points stand, I haven't seen Genjutsu fool a sixth sense .

5. KS affects future sight, which is a higher sense that's almost abstract, now don't tell me Yhwach don't have resistance, that's utterly irrelevant yes Yhwach has no resistance and Aizen can get at him, but that doesn't explain how a vision of the future that doesn't exist yet is being altered.

Like i said I want to see basic low tier Genjutsu user that can replicate all this, that's what brought this conversation, so far we've being discussing shAringan Genjutsu and it's not even considered basic low tier in the verse.

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Guys! Why don't we just wait for more feats for Eida? It's too early to decide on who wins this battle.

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@karenfromcv----:

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@gilateen: @scp-939: Prove Eida is one of the cyborgs he is talking about. And if she is it could be including her ability. It was pretty much straight up stated that Code could have killed her if he wasn't controlled by her power. So she may be the most dangerous, but there is no proof she has the raw power to back it up.

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Here's your proof

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Guys! Why don't we just wait for more feats for Eida? It's too early to decide on who wins this battle.

If we go off of statements then Eida is already above Kaguya since Jigen>>>Kaguya

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@scp-939: isshiki>kaguya, we don't really know how jigen stacks up to her

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@scp-939: isshiki>kaguya, we don't really know how jigen stacks up to her

True but still

Eida was stated to GREATLY surpass Jigen so she's very much above him

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@scp-939: That dude said ALL of them were disposed of. So she could have been in the batch that were supposed to be disposed of, but only the ones that actually got disposed of were stronger, and she was only among the bunch due to her power. I mean, iirc she outright admitted Code is strong enough to kill her even while suppressed, so unless you think suppressed Code>Jigen, I don't see how she is physically superior to Jigen.

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Let’s wait for new feats for eida.

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@alextheboss: bro, there's only the one batch. There were several cyborgs, all of whom were order disposed.

The disposal failed because of Aida's ability.

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@scp-939: That dude said ALL of them were disposed of. So she could have been in the batch that were supposed to be disposed of, but only the ones that actually got disposed of were stronger, and she was only among the bunch due to her power. I mean, iirc she outright admitted Code is strong enough to kill her even while suppressed, so unless you think suppressed Code>Jigen, I don't see how she is physically superior to Jigen.

Amado didn't know that Eida wasn't disposed of, that's why he said all

Boro was supposed to dispose of her but he got haxed by her ability and couldn't destroy her

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I'm confused as to how anyone says she wins. She has no way to deal with aizen immortality and her hax shouldn't even do anything to him

Byakuya has already resisted basically the same power. Why people think it's useful here is confusing not to mention aizen would have no qualms killing someone he cares for. Just look at tousen

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@alextheboss

Also where was it stated that Code supressed could kill her?

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I'm confused as to how anyone says she wins. She has no way to deal with aizen immortality and her hax shouldn't even do anything to him

Byakuya has already resisted basically the same power. Why people think it's useful here is confusing not to mention aizen would have no qualms killing someone he cares for. Just look at tousen

Because IIRC her Powers negate Resistance

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@omega7373663: her power was never stated to negate resistance. There hasn't been a hax like it in the series so there isn't even any resistance to it honestly

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I'm confused as to how anyone says she wins. She has no way to deal with aizen immortality and her hax shouldn't even do anything to him

Byakuya has already resisted basically the same power. Why people think it's useful here is confusing not to mention aizen would have no qualms killing someone he cares for. Just look at tousen

You don't to kill someone to beat them.

Pepe's power wasn't quite the same. He can't affect anyone who's apathetic and or has enough willpower. It's closer to old fashion mind control than actual love.

Wouldn't really say aizen cared about tousen. Her power straight up stops people from moving to kill her. Code was smitten by her and yet still fully intended to slit her throat but his body Wouldn't let him.

Just being a cruel meanie isn't enough to counter it.

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@scp-939: Maybe I misremembered her saying Code could have killed her if not for her ability, but when you read the chapter it does seem like that's what saved her. Anyways she makes it clear people feared her due to her ability, so unless we outright see she is physically superior tot he likes of Jigen, I would not say it's a fact yet.

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@scp-939: Maybe I misremembered her saying Code could have killed her if not for her ability, but when you read the chapter it does seem like that's what saved her. Anyways she makes it clear people feared her due to her ability, so unless we outright see she is physically superior tot he likes of Jigen, I would not say it's a fact yet.

I literally just showed you lmao

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#180  Edited By Omega7373663

@theemperor95 said:

@omega7373663: her power was never stated to negate resistance. There hasn't been a hax like it in the series so there isn't even any resistance to it honestly

IIRC it was stated that her powers work even on Womans (who are logically not supposed to be affected by her Love hax) and it worked on Cold blood/hearted people like code who is also not supposed to be affected by those kind of hax so it should clearly have some kind of resistance Negation

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Eida’s ability should work no problem.

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Gilateen

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Eida still, no matter what the poll shows.

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Aizen kills her with his penis

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#185  Edited By Wanderez

Eida's love hax isn't even passive, while KS is.

Not to mention that Shinji's Bankai, which>>>>Eida's love hax was stated that it'd not work on Aizen.

Aizen flexes his Reiatsu and Eida explodes.

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@wanderez said:

Eida's love hax aren't even passive, while KS is.

Not to mention that Shinji's Bankai, which>>>>Eida's love hax was stated that it'd not work on Aizen.

Aizen flexes his Reiatsu and Eida explodes.

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@wanderez: it is passive, that's her whole deal. She can't stop people from loving her and it makes her miserable. Its always active even when she's unconscious.

Meanwhile KS only catches people during the moment of release and you need to see it. Aida just needs to be near you.

Shinji's bankai wasn't used on aizen because its only good if he's outnumbered. If shinji uses it near allies, they'd turn against him and it basically doesn't do anything 1v1.

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#188  Edited By Wanderez

@manimalman:

Actually after re-reading the chapter, I missed the part where it was mentioned that Bug was affected long ago. I'm on 50/50 on whether her hax is passive or not. Still want to wait more to confirm. Bug was way too pressed to explain it to Code considering that if it was passive it would have affected Code long ago. Aizen is already fused with his sword and there is nothing to release. You looking at him is all that is needed.

It was actually explicitly stated that Shinji's Bankai would not work even if the conditions were met.

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Byakuya resisting Pepe's love doesn't transfer over to Aizen resisting Eida's love. I don't know why people keep bringing that feat up, both love abilities have different mechanism to them.

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@wanderez said:

@manimalman:

Actually after re-reading the chapter, I missed the part where it was mentioned that Bug was affected long ago. I'm on 50/50 on whether her hax is passive or not. Still want to wait more to confirm. Bug was way too pressed to explain it to Code considering that if it was passive it would have affected Code long ago. Aizen is already fused with his sword and there is nothing to release. You looking at him is all that is needed.

It was actually explicitly stated that Shinji's Bankai would not work even if the conditions were met.

It was explicitly stated that she has no control over her ability meaning that it's always active by default and this means yes it's passive, the moment she woke up is the moment where Code got affected and he couldn't do anything to her

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@omega7373663: why would girls not be effected? Girls falling in love with girls a pretty common thing

We know nothing about code but he certainly isn't as cold hearted as aizen. He's emotional when it come to ohtsutsuki. Also it's the first type of hax that has appeared in naruto so they don't have any resistance to it. Closest thing is koto and it's considered a God tier ability

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@stehu said:
@wanderez said:

Eida's love hax aren't even passive, while KS is.

Not to mention that Shinji's Bankai, which>>>>Eida's love hax was stated that it'd not work on Aizen.

Aizen flexes his Reiatsu and Eida explodes.

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@stehu said:
@wanderez said:

Eida's love hax aren't even passive, while KS is.

Not to mention that Shinji's Bankai, which>>>>Eida's love hax was stated that it'd not work on Aizen.

Aizen flexes his Reiatsu and Eida explodes.

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Aizen gets mind haxed since he is hill level and goes for eida.

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Aizen

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All good, I've been super busy with work too so it's hard to get through long replies.

@saxz said:

Sorry for the late reply, I bumped with......... Well everything,so..

@manimalman said:

@saxz:

That's true but sometimes it just don't. Take Kakashi for example who is the most versatile of shinobi out there, it barely gives him an advantage in some scenarios.

It's an advantage in most scenarios.

I have only ever see it done with illusions, or sometimes when the manga would just take the initiative and not show the illusions on panel, but I may be wrong, because it's well within the ability of mind control to make them sleep, so. I'll just ask for the scan.

You can scare them, put them in immobile trance, force them to sleep, Hypnotize them and order them to sleep etc. Here's Kakashi knocking out those ANBU.

No Caption Provided

He just KO's them and makes the dream of observing naruto. Aizen can only hope to scare someone unconscious.

Yeah but except it's some itachi tier shit whom I totally respect for being for being above Aizen, most Genjutsu can be broken easily. Sometimes if itachi doesn't try too hard his Genjutsu can be broken by pain, like kurenai simply biting her lips to snap out of itachi's Genjutsu.

Yeah any standard tier genjutsu can be broken through real pain. The kai/genjutsu release method is based on relative skill. Unskilled victims can't break out of genjutsu from skilled casters like how naruto couldn't stop itachi.

I meant the high end Genjutsu, but even Sharingan Genjutsu has a really low limit I have seen it control a few people at best and that's for a breif moment

There's no known limit, we usually see genjutsu control a small group of people because fights usually only involve a hand full of people. The actual amount of people you can cast on and the duration should just depend on chakra supply. Its not an inherent weakness or strength.

this is a bit of a false equivalency, Tokinada is lesser than Aizen, so of course he's have drawbacks stealing other people abilities. If someone lesser than Itachi uses the ability I doubt they could even activate it much less use it.

The itachi analogy is a good example of what I mean. The sharingan and KS are just tools and its up to the castor to make the most of them. Both abilities require stamina and concentration but itachi and aizen are just adept enough to make it look easy.

Not really, his illusions are only active during the release. He's never actually kept it up for longer than a few days.

I only remember him making gin look like him for a while. The longest I remember is the corpse situation which was only a few days. Meanwhile genjutsu can last continuously for years.

If Tsukuyomi, Koto or whatever was a skill possessed by multiple people this would be a good point, but this is Aizen's KS VS whoever's Genjutsu.... Correction though, KS doesn't really use tons of energy as you put it, it's just that reiatsu is almost everything in bleach and Tokinada couldn't get KS to its full potential Because he has less reiatsu than Aizen, not that it was eating at his energy. Same with Ryujin jakka, the flames weren't as potent, not that it took more energy to make them.

Yes Tokinda has much less reiatsu(energy output) than aizen and yama, AKA he can't provide enough energy to bring their abilities up to those levels. The potency of the flames is dependant on energy. With KS the amount of time it can be active and the amount of people it can affect at once depends on how much energy the user can put into it.

Actually nothing says KS requires more energy for more people, anyone who falls for it, falls for it, any illusion Aizen conjures up fools anyone under the spell, it doesn't become more taxing the more people. This is a Huge misconception must be why you guys downplay KS a lot. Its more closer to Gengetsu (3rd Mizukage).

"Since it was being used by someone other than Aizen, someone whose reiatsu was lower than Aizen's, another weakness of Kyoka Suigetsu is born. The stronger the reiatsu of the opponent, the initial condition of the Shikai itself changed accordingly."

It takes more reiatsu to keep strong people under KS and the more people there are, the more effort. Also its just a matter of reason that it is isn’t infinite. All zanpakuto require energy to operate, KS isn't any different.

Good Kabuto can mind hax hundreds (not thousands) but his Genjutsu is weak definitely weaker than Tayuya and Kurenais which can be escaped by snapping yourself out with pain. That's a huge downside. That's what I don't get, and that's what started this conversation, why do you bring in other Genjutsu strength to fill out the limitations of another. Why does KS a single individual's ability have to be compared with the entire catalogue of mind hax from another verse.?? Either KS is that badass to warrant this or it's just plain unfair. If we're being fair then we Should just bring in the rest of bleach Mind hax to help out the limitations of KS

I'm comparing KS to regular sharingan genjutsu. Thing is, the basic sharingan can replicate most other genjutsu. There's a ton of things basic sharingan genjutsu can do that KS can't while the only things KS can do that the sharingan can't are instantly reactivate and stay up through physical pain.

Nope it's not the same thing, at all. Unohana is the highest class healer, so she can notice the subtle difference between a real corpse and something doctored to be one that's because of her extensive knowledge, because Aizen obviously wouldn't be able to make a perfect illusion of a corpse at not without the subtle hint to fool someone of unohana's caliber, Yama guessed, although that may just be the weakness of KS kicking in since he is touching the blade. Either way it's not something you know, The best you can do is guess and those two examples are weird they have context to them.

That's my point, Unohana thanks to her extensive training could perceive flaws. Someone like Aida who can see everything on earth (and beyond) instantly look back at any moment since her birth is absolutely gonna notice flaws.

Yama didn't guess, Aizen even asked him as much and he told him that his reiatsu was unmistakable.

No Caption Provided

Also the touching the sword thing, only applies to the instant KS releases. All it does is stop KS from activating, touching it doesn't do anything once KS is already active, otherwise KS would've been undone anytime Aizen sliced someone.

The context for both instances is pretty clear. Unohana noticed flaws in the illusion by looking extremely closely and Yama sensed him by having remarkably precise sensing and being super familar with Aizen's reiatsu.

True... But being aware it's not the problem, Aizen basically broadcasted his ability at FKT and everyone was on high alert for illusions, but that didn't stop him from catching them unawares, his illusion is seamless, you only know when he wants you to know that's what makes it dangerous.

Just about everyone there was already exposed to KS. He literally used to invite people over to hypnotize them before he kicked off his plan.

Compare that to Naruto where people go on high alert just from seeing puddles out of place, rabbits with the wrong color of fur for the time of year, the wrong species of bird in the desert etc.

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@manimalman:

It's an advantage in most scenarios.

Yeah that most becomes some when you're outmatched.

You can scare them, put them in immobile trance, force them to sleep, Hypnotize them and order them to sleep etc. Here's Kakashi knocking out those ANBU.

He just KO's them and makes the dream of observing naruto. Aizen can only hope to scare someone unconscious...

Oh yeah you're right so I concede on this, this is something KS can't do, but this raise the question why doesn't he put people on his level like Hidan and the rest to sleep, it's not like they have some special resistance that prevents this, This particular ability only works on fodders/way lesser than the caster. KS abilities have being shown to work on people at Aizen's level and greater.

Yeah any standard tier genjutsu can be broken through real pain. The kai/genjutsu release method is based on relative skill. Unskilled victims can't break out of genjutsu from skilled casters like how naruto couldn't stop itachi.

That's more Itachi since he is on a different tier with regards to Genjutsu, enough to make it his major fighting style.

There's no known limit, we usually see genjutsu control a small group of people because fights usually only involve a hand full of people. The actual amount of people you can cast on and the duration should just depend on chakra supply. Its not an inherent weakness or strength.

True there's no known limit, but by feats only a handful of people have being affected.... Even so that Chiyo thinks more number of people is a counter to Sharingan Genjutsu. If there's no known limit then we go by its current feats.

The itachi analogy is a good example of what I mean. The sharingan and KS are just tools and its up to the castor to make the most of them. Both abilities require stamina and concentration but itachi and aizen are just adept enough to make it look easy.

True. But you're mistaking KS doesn't burn stamina at all, even when Tokinada uses it.... Some weakness just resurfaced, stamina wasnt one of them.

I only remember him making gin look like him for a while. The longest I remember is the corpse situation which was only a few days. Meanwhile genjutsu can last continuously for years.

I don't remember the Gin one, the corpse is another example, but I am talking about this

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

When Aizen made Hirako and his entire division see some rando as himself for a month. I have yet to sharingan Genjutsu replicate this sort of thing. I haven't seen a Genjutsu that last continuously for years, wouldn't that require the Sharingan to active the entire time and the user not to sleep for years??

Yes Tokinda has much less reiatsu(energy output) than aizen and yama, AKA he can't provide enough energy to bring their abilities up to those levels. The potency of the flames is dependant on energy. With KS the amount of time it can be active and the amount of people it can affect at once depends on how much energy the user can put into it.

That last part wasn't stated, just as the only weakness born from Yama flames was the flames weren't as hot/destuctive as Yama's, the only weakness born from Aizen's KS is it doesn't work on people with high reiatsu. The number of people, the times and stamina doesn't change. It's not about the amount of energy Tokinada put into it, he can put all his energy and that weakness would still be there. His lower tier reiatsu just gave birth to that weakness.

Let me liken it to an isekai/RPG..... Aizen has class S reiatsu, which makes KS flawless, Tokinada has class A reiatsu which gave birth to the weakness. It's not that Tokinada isn't putting enough reiatsu.

I'm comparing KS to regular sharingan genjutsu. Thing is, the basic sharingan can replicate most other genjutsu. There's a ton of things basic sharingan genjutsu can do that KS can't while the only things KS can do that the sharingan can't are instantly reactivate and stay up through physical pain.

Yeah, in terms of potency yes SG can replicate most, but not all, Replicating Kabuto trapping 100 of civilians is one of them, because it's a different Genjutsu technique that uses range above potency.

Apart from the Sharingan Genjutsu ability to mind control, I don't really see its other advantages, and this mind control doesn't work on most battle scenarios or on people higher than you, else Sasuke would just one shot Raikage.

Those 2 points you gave for KS are the main reasons to put it above SG, but there are others

  • the fact that it can instantly reactivate means without learning the weakness you will always remain victim(without resistance)
  • The fact that you can't snap out of it, even when you know you're in it, nothing is getting you out, you either have resistance or you don't
  • Its illusions works on the 6th sense, (energy sensing) Genjutsu has no such feats
  • The fact that it can alter time perception.
  • the fact that the illusion run seamlessly for a long time over the course of an entire battle
  • Its called complete hypnosis; which means it aims to take over all the opponent senses at the same time. And this includes Yhwach future sight, which is something thats almost abstract
  • and that its battle effective and works on people even stronger than you are the reasons I put it above SG.

Naturally in terms of mind control I'd give it to SG but KS was never a Mind control ability, it's Sensory manipulation, it's a simple ability but it's effectiveness in battle surpasses anything that isn't the highest tier of Genjutsu(pr itachi). SG is also impressive for having sensory manipulation/illusions along with its mind control but its illusionary techniques are not on the level of KS.

That's my point, Unohana thanks to her extensive training could perceive flaws. Someone like Aida who can see everything on earth (and beyond) instantly look back at any moment since her birth is absolutely gonna notice flaws.

Yama didn't guess, Aizen even asked him as much and he told him that his reiatsu was unmistakable.

Nope she isn't not without an extensive knowledge on a particular subject, The illusion itself is flawless , the problem itself is with Aizen's knowledge, if Aizen was required to make a perfect illusion of a book he never or barely read, then of course he won't fool someone who has read the book twenty times over. That's the context with Unohana. It has absolutely nothing to do with the illusions he would show Ada in battle.

True, Yama was assertive but Aizen never confirmed his claim. So it's a big question mark.

Also the touching the sword thing, only applies to the instant KS releases. All it does is stop KS from activating, touching it doesn't do anything once KS is already active, otherwise KS would've been undone anytime Aizen sliced someone.

True, which is why it was just an assumption. Probably some weakness kicked it, but it's just headcanon. But the major point is Aizen never confirmed Yama's suspicion.

The context for both instances is pretty clear. Unohana noticed flaws in the illusion by looking extremely closely and Yama sensed him by having remarkably precise sensing and being super familar with Aizen's reiatsu.

Unohana is more than just looking closely I explained it above, it's just her having more knowledge than Aizen in that department and even at that She wasn't sure, Yama's case is a big question mark, because Aizen has confirmed that reiatsu sensing is just rendered useless as the rest senses.

Just about everyone there was already exposed to KS. He literally used to invite people over to hypnotize them before he kicked off his plan.

Compare that to Naruto where people go on high alert just from seeing puddles out of place, rabbits with the wrong color of fur for the time of year, the wrong species of bird in the desert etc.

Aizen is super smart, if it comes to replicating the environment perfectly he can do that perfectly, That won't be a problem, he'll have just as much knowledge on Aida or even more on the illusion he is replicating.

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Aizen’s IQ is hill level

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Aizen stomp