If Eddard is at his prime, this is too close to call
Why? I would still put Brienne comfortably ahead of him. Not by much, but the gap is there.
He was doing pretty well against two handed Jaime until the guard stabbed him in the leg. Brienne only got the upper hand on a malnourished Jaime. I'd say the two showings equal out.
If Eddard is at his prime, this is too close to call
Why? I would still put Brienne comfortably ahead of him. Not by much, but the gap is there.
He was doing pretty well against two handed Jaime until the guard stabbed him in the leg. Brienne only got the upper hand on a malnourished Jaime. I'd say the two showings equal out.
Jaime was toying with him throughout the entire fight. After they locked swords (which is a pure strength contest) Jaime realized that he needs to start taking Ned seriously, but then Ned was stabbed and the fight was over. It's actually a feat for Jaime, that even when he isn't serious he can hold off a bloodlusted Ned. A serious Jaime is deadly, probably the deadliest fighter in all of Westeros at the time. He would have butchered Ned if he was serious, just like he did Jory.
Brienne's fight against Jaime isn't a "real" fight for many reasons, one of them being his undernourishment as you pointed out. I don't count it as a feat for her.
I just rewatched the fight and Im curious what would make you think Jamie was "toying" with Ned? Throughout the whole fight he was taking kill shots. He smiled at one point but I didnt view that a toying but rather due to excitement that hes getting a "real" challenge. One could even argue that Jamie's guard speared Ned because they realized it was a closer fight than anyone would have expected and he felt the need to protect Jamie because they were running the risk of him losing. Debatable of course, but I just didnt get the same sense you seem to have.
Anywho, Id probably say Ned with difficulty. He held his own against Jamie and had a good fight with Dayne in his younger days. The problem of course is that we havent seen him actually win the fights (on his own). Brianne bested a chained and malnourished Jamie, the Hound, and Loras (albeit it was not a sword fight - she had a shield and chain mace and he had an axe only). The Hound is a great feat and she just barely edged that one out.
I dont feel overly strongly about my position here, but slight edge to Ned.
If Eddard is at his prime, this is too close to call
Why? I would still put Brienne comfortably ahead of him. Not by much, but the gap is there.
He was doing pretty well against two handed Jaime until the guard stabbed him in the leg. Brienne only got the upper hand on a malnourished Jaime. I'd say the two showings equal out.
Jaime was toying with him throughout the entire fight. After they locked swords (which is a pure strength contest) Jaime realized that he needs to start taking Ned seriously, but then Ned was stabbed and the fight was over. It's actually a feat for Jaime, that even when he isn't serious he can hold off a bloodlusted Ned. A serious Jaime is deadly, probably the deadliest fighter in all of Westeros at the time. He would have butchered Ned if he was serious, just like he did Jory.
Brienne's fight against Jaime isn't a "real" fight for many reasons, one of them being his undernourishment as you pointed out. I don't count it as a feat for her.
I just rewatched the fight and Im curious what would make you think Jamie was "toying" with Ned? Throughout the whole fight he was taking kill shots. He smiled at one point but I didnt view that a toying but rather due to excitement that hes getting a "real" challenge. One could even argue that Jamie's guard speared Ned because they realized it was a closer fight than anyone would have expected and he felt the need to protect Jamie because they were running the risk of him losing. Debatable of course, but I just didnt get the same sense you seem to have.
Anywho, Id probably say Ned with difficulty. He held his own against Jamie and had a good fight with Dayne in his younger days. The problem of course is that we havent seen him actually win the fights (on his own). Brianne bested a chained and malnourished Jamie, the Hound, and Loras (albeit it was not a sword fight - she had a shield and chain mace and he had an axe only). The Hound is a great feat and she just barely edged that one out.
I dont feel overly strongly about my position here, but slight edge to Ned.
If Eddard is at his prime, this is too close to call
Why? I would still put Brienne comfortably ahead of him. Not by much, but the gap is there.
He was doing pretty well against two handed Jaime until the guard stabbed him in the leg. Brienne only got the upper hand on a malnourished Jaime. I'd say the two showings equal out.
Jaime was toying with him throughout the entire fight. After they locked swords (which is a pure strength contest) Jaime realized that he needs to start taking Ned seriously, but then Ned was stabbed and the fight was over. It's actually a feat for Jaime, that even when he isn't serious he can hold off a bloodlusted Ned. A serious Jaime is deadly, probably the deadliest fighter in all of Westeros at the time. He would have butchered Ned if he was serious, just like he did Jory.
Brienne's fight against Jaime isn't a "real" fight for many reasons, one of them being his undernourishment as you pointed out. I don't count it as a feat for her.
There are many things that point toward Jaime toying with Ned:
Jaime stated that he doesn't want to kill Ned.
Ned acknowledged the fact that Jaime would beat him.
Ned was waaaay out of shape while Jaime was as fit as ever.
Jaime could have let the dozen or so guards that he had around him take care of Ned if he wanted to, but he fought him himself for sport.
He smiled right in his face to make him angry.
The feats, hype and accolades of each of them individually point toward Jaime being Ned's superior by a considerable margin.
It was stated by the producers that Jaime started the fight without being serious. Lol.
Also, Ned didn't do well against Dayne. He did a bit better than his other comrades, true, but he still got his ass handed to him in 30 seconds give or take. Brienne's best feat in my opinion isn't anything that you even mentioned. In my opinion her best feat is killing 2 knights of Renly's Kingsguard right after Renly died.
@the_red_viper: Ned killed a Kingsguard before engaging Dayne, and iirc it is stated several times that Aegon Kingsguards were the best of the best, Renly's guards weren't even the best of Westeros at that time.
Brienne vs Jaime is a feat for Jaime, not for Brienne. And I think Dayne would disarm Brienne as fast as he disarmed Ned.
Re read my post, I said "If Eddard is at his prime (...)" Meaning an Eddard on shape, if this is Brienne vs old Ned off course Brieene would win.
@the_red_viper: Ned killed a Kingsguard before engaging Dayne, and iirc it is stated several times that Aegon Kingsguards were the best of the best, Renly's guards weren't even the best of Westeros at that time.
Brienne vs Jaime is a feat for Jaime, not for Brienne. And I think Dayne would disarm Brienne as fast as he disarmed Ned.
Re read my post, I said "If Eddard is at his prime (...)" Meaning an Eddard on shape, if this is Brienne vs old Ned off course Brieene would win.
I agree on the Brienne VS Jaime thing, I always say the same thing myself.
Ned killed Hightower but I still don't see how that compares to Brienne killing 2 knights who were among the most elite of Renly's army (which was pretty huge). Even if Hightower was better than either knight individually which is probably the case, there were still 2 of them and they were bloodlusted, and Brienne killed them in under 10 seconds. I also don't think that Dayne would have disarmed Brienne that fast but there's no way of knowing.
And I understood your post, I think that Brienne would beat prime Ned. Not easily but she still has better feats. Past-prime Ned would be considerably easier of course. I just don't think that surviving 30 seconds against Dayne is as impressive as people make it out to be (especially considering that Ned was giving it all he had and Dayne was not very happy about having to fight Ned) and I don't think that killing 1 Kingsguard is better than killing 2. Add to that all of Brienne's other feats.
@the_red_viper: Watching the fight it certainly doesnt appear as though Jamie was holding much back - he had some swings in there that would have been kill shots, but you do have a great point that he didnt want Ned dead. I certainly agree 100% that Jamie would have won the fight ultimately, but when you face a top tier opponent like Dayne or Jamie, lasting even a few seconds is a high level feat. However, if what you said is true and the Producers stated Jamie was toying with him, that certainly makes a big difference! ha ha. Not sure where you heard that, but it would swing my perception of the fight for sure.
@the_red_viper: Watching the fight it certainly doesnt appear as though Jamie was holding much back - he had some swings in there that would have been kill shots, but you do have a great point that he didnt want Ned dead. I certainly agree 100% that Jamie would have won the fight ultimately, but when you face a top tier opponent like Dayne or Jamie, lasting even a few seconds is a high level feat. However, if what you said is true and the Producers stated Jamie was toying with him, that certainly makes a big difference! ha ha. Not sure where you heard that, but it would swing my perception of the fight for sure.
@cregan_stark told me that about the producers, but I couldn't find the source myself (I did try). He told me that the producers said that Jaime was not being serious in the start but realized he needs to step it up at some point (they don't say exactly when). Having watched this scene like a hundred times, it certainly looks like Jaime was starting to get serious only when he and Ned locked swords, but after that the fight was over so we didn't get to see Jaime being serious. Regarding the killshots, well of course he was making some shots that could have killed or injured Ned had they connected, but I guess Jaime knew Ned would be able to parry them which is part of the idea when you're toying with someone, you're just trying to make them angry. I don't think that surviving against Dayne can be counted as a feat, I mean it was just 30 seconds and it's not like Ned was putting up much of a fight, all he could do was literally just try and survive. Bran and Bloodraven even state that Dayne is FAR better than Ned.
Ned would beat Brienne. The only reason Ned lost to Jaime was because of the kingsguard interference, and him using Ice. I believe it would have been a better fight had he not been using a greatsword. Ned "surviving the Tower of Joy" is a better feat than anything Brienne has shown so far imo. And like theCrazybean said, Rhaegar's kingsguard was the most elite squad in Westeros. Of course, Howland was the G.O.A.T, but Ned didn't die. He fought alongside Robert, Howland Reed and other notable people of strength, fought in the Riverlands during the rebellion and ultimately survived it. Brienne will have the fight of her life.
Ned would beat Brienne. The only reason Ned lost to Jaime was because of the kingsguard interference, and him using Ice. I believe it would have been a better fight had he not been using a greatsword. Ned "surviving the Tower of Joy" is a better feat than anything Brienne has shown so far imo. And like theCrazybean said, Rhaegar's kingsguard was the most elite squad in Westeros. Of course, Howland was the G.O.A.T, but Ned didn't die. He fought alongside Robert, Howland Reed and other notable people of strength, fought in the Riverlands during the rebellion and ultimately survived it. Brienne will have the fight of her life.
There are so many inaccuracies here that I can't tell if you're trolling or not.
@the_red_viper: point out inaccuracies. He survived a fight with the greatest swordsman alive, fought in the riverlands at the beginning of the rebellion and survived it and he did use his big ass valeyrian steel sword against someone with more maneuverability. And yes, Howland Reed is the G.O.A.T that saved Neds ass
@the_red_viper: point out inaccuracies. He survived a fight with the greatest swordsman alive, fought in the riverlands at the beginning of the rebellion and survived it and he did use his big ass valeyrian steel sword against someone with more maneuverability. And yes, Howland Reed is the G.O.A.T that saved Neds ass
Ned would beat Brienne. The only reason Ned lost to Jaime was because of the kingsguard interference, and him using Ice. I believe it would have been a better fight had he not been using a greatsword. Ned "surviving the Tower of Joy" is a better feat than anything Brienne has shown so far imo. And like theCrazybean said, Rhaegar's kingsguard was the most elite squad in Westeros. Of course, Howland was the G.O.A.T, but Ned didn't die. He fought alongside Robert, Howland Reed and other notable people of strength, fought in the Riverlands during the rebellion and ultimately survived it. Brienne will have the fight of her life.
In order:
That man was a simple soldier, not a Kingsguard.
Ned was not using Ice, he was using a regular sword. Ice was a ceremonial sword and was never used in fighting.
Surviving the ToJ is not even a feat.
It was Aerys's Kingsguard. Aerys was the king, Rhaegar was the prince.
Howland Reed is closer to being a goat than to being a G.O.A.T. He was the fodderiest of Ned's party.
@phoenixtitan: Not exactly,Barristan is above him (based on what the books implied)...and the likes of Jaime,Robert,Oberyn,Hound,Mountain are above him as well.
@phoenixtitan: Not exactly,Barristan is above him (based on what the books implied)...and the likes of Jaime,Robert,Oberyn,Hound,Mountain are above him as well.
He had a burn on his arm, an infected shoulder, and had not changed his armour in several months. Brienne had a squire to accompany her, which means that her armour would've been polished regularly. Brienne also had a horse for the majority of her journey, and had a Valeryian steel sword.
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