Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt:

  • Lancer
  • Black Star
  • I Have Willpower Damnit! Your team can easily brush off mental/soul attacks with no problem.

@highaccuser:

  • Chapter 2 Jin Mori
  • Weather Wizard
  • I Have Willpower Damnit! Your team can easily brush off mental/soul attacks with no problem.

Rules:

  • Time Control of any kind.
  • Shrinking Killing.
  • Telebombs inside the body.
  • No Ki/Chi/Mana/Magic/Psychic/Ect attacks above city block in potency.
  • Ki/Chi/Mana/Magic/Psychic/Ect are all interchangeable forces.
  • True Immortality. They must be incap or killed in reasonable way.
  • Molecule manipulation.
  • Summoning anything more than 3. Must fit limits above.
  • Gear must fit rules above.
  • Death or KO.
  • No BFR.
  • Random encounters.
  • In character.
  • Standard gear. As in gear that is use more than once, and easily attainable from the user.

Battlefield:

Start 50 feet apart.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sy8000
#2 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Star got in? Guess I forgot to argue that...eh it's too late now.

Avatar image for nfactor1995
#3 Posted by nfactor1995 (12759 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for chromtheexalt
#4 Edited by ChromTheExalt (703 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: You seem to know more about my characters than vice-versa so you mind going first?

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#5 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Star got in? Guess I forgot to argue that...eh it's too late now.

If he is argued over limits thats a disaqualed.

Avatar image for sy8000
#6 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: You seem to know more about my characters than vice-versa so you mind going first?

I know nothing about Lancer actually, but I'll go first.

Avatar image for chromtheexalt
#7 Posted by ChromTheExalt (703 posts) - - Show Bio
@chromtheexalt said:

@highaccuser: You seem to know more about my characters than vice-versa so you mind going first?

I know nothing about Lancer actually, but I'll go first.

Still, you know about one of my fighters as opposed to me being vaguely aware of Weather Wizard.

Avatar image for sy8000
#8 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt: True, anyway my post should just be a brief opener. I'll save feats and arguments for later.

Avatar image for sy8000
#9 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt:

Weather Wizard

No Caption Provided

Mark Mardon a.k.a. Weather Wizard is a consistent member of the Flash Rouges with a wand that lets him control the weather (although there are implications that he became a metahuman at some point and doesn't actually need the wand.

Character profiles:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

I am using composite Pre and Post Flashpoint feats for Weather Wizard. With that he uses weather manipulation to act as a range fighter with a wide range of options, mainly lighting and wind storms but his powers aren't limited to those. For displays of power, his lighting is powerful enough to collapse skyscrapers.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For a more imposing display of power he does noticeable damage to the polar ice cap by melting it with repeated lightning bolts.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For wind manipulation Post Flashpoint Mardon redirects the course of a magnet train and carries its weight over to a nearby building.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Pre-Flashpoint is significantly more powerful in this (and all but one) respect. He can create massive tornados that threaten city blocks shredding buildings and sucking up cars as a casual display.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Other view of same tornado, it can be seen towering over skyscrapers.

No Caption Provided

Mark is also capable of intensely raising the temperature in a local area and creating heat waves:

No Caption Provided

Jin Mori

No Caption Provided

Jin Mori a.k.a. Jecheondaeseong a.k.a. Sun Wukong is the protagonist of God of Highschool. Later in the series he regains memories as Monkey King and vastly high tier level power. I'm using the version before this from chapters 1-108. Although he doesn't have the stats of his later versions this version of Mori is still a very good mid tier with a level of martial arts skill and knowledge not normal for his tier.

Martial Arts Knowledge:

Mori has two main martial art styles he uses primarily: Re-Taekwondo and Nabong Needle Ryu. He occasionally mixes in moves copied from other characters but those two are his core styles.

Renewal Taekwondo

Re-Taekwondo was developed as an answer for Itf Taekwondo. Itf Taekwondo itself is an incredibly refined martial art which draws from Kung Fu and numerous other techniques picked out for their various strengths to achieve perfection. A skilled user can defeat 50 martial artists without any damage or difficulty.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Re-Taekwondo is developed successfully as a counter and superior style to Itf.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Mori lived up to this by quite soundly defeating an Itf Taekwondo user who displayed the strength to cause large and powerful shockwaves that filled the ring and sliced outwards toward the arena (remember that neither Jin nor his opponent are superhuman in-universe and this is all a tier of stats achieved by skill).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14

Re-Taekwondo is extremely potent to the point of being extremely superhuman. Taejin, Mori's teacher and the creator of the style is capable of kicking away island busting swords thrown at him from orbit by giant angels without effort:

For confirmation of size they can be seen towering over mountains:

No Caption Provided

Mori has never been compared to Taejin so I won't use scaling to claim he can replicate these feats. The point is to put into perspective the level of feats attainable in God of Highschool via skill, and Mori is a master of one of the most potent martial arts in the verse.

Nabong Needle Ryu

Nabong Needle Ryu a.k.a. Bongchim Nah style is needle-less acupuncture. Fitting in with the other martial arts in God of Highschool it allows extreme Wuxia-tier effects such as nullifying pain and healing injuries which Mori himself has shown. He uses it to heal Il-Pyo who'd bleed out so much Nanomachines and Borrowed Power couldn't heal him and he was moments from death:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

For immediate relevance in melee it gives Mori the means to let him drop his opponents. This is how opponents appear to Mori:

No Caption Provided

Mori can easily knock out his opponents this way, helplessly immobilizing a superhuman opponent with a single move in a state where his vision was blurry.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
Images are in reverse order.

This will do for now. I have a solid range and melee fighter combo and will get more into feats and arguments as the debate goes on.

Avatar image for chromtheexalt
#10 Posted by ChromTheExalt (703 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser

Lancer

No Caption Provided

Lancer aka Cú Chulainn is the Lacer-class servant of the 5th Holy Grail War. He is widely remarked as the fastest servant in the entire war.

Stats

In an instant, he's traded blows with another servant over a hundred times.

He moves so fast it looks like he teleported.

Becomes FTE to Archer who can track supersonic projectiles .

A light backfist throws a man into a wall.

Gae Bolg

Lancer's Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg is his true advantage in any fight.

Gáe Bolg - Piercing Lance of Death Thorns - This is Gae Bolg's ability, which basically translates to "If he thrusts his spear, your heart gets pierced." The only way to avoid the usage of Gae Bolg is to be moving before Lancer has thrust it, as once he starts thrusting your heart is instantly pierced.

Gáe Bolg - Thrusting Lance of Death Flight - Gae Bolg's second ability which is activated when thrown, is classed anti-army and is easily city-block level, in combination with Gae Bolg's original ability to always aim at the opponent's heart, this is truly Lancer's trump-card.

An example of Gae Bolg's power when thrown.

Black Star

No Caption Provided

Black Star is an Assassin, Meister, and Bushin at DWMA. He is responible for hunting and collecting the souls of evil beings known as kishin eggs.

Stats

His sword swings create massive shockwaves that send multiple foes flying.

One kick sends an opponent flying and his kicks are compared to cannons.

Casually dodges a flurry of blows at close range.

Is slashed with multiple swords hard enough to smash him through a stone tower.

Restrains the Kishin (The god of fear) with a broken arm

Lifts one of the moon's teeth.

The absolute best durability feat ever.

Tsubaki: The Demon Sword.

Black Star's weapon partner Tsubaki adds an extra layer of power to an already beastly powerhouse.

Shadow☆Star: First Form is an powerful chain-scythe, and Tsubaki is able to change it's direction mid-air.

Shadow☆Star: Second Form: an upgraded shuriken prioritizing defense. It produces a strong black shield around any body part that passes through the center ring, capable of stopping lasers.

Shadow☆Star: Third Form: an upgraded ninjato prioritizing speed. Using it, Black Star can move fast enough to produce physical afterimages.

Shadow☆Star: Fourth Form: an ability that allows Tsubaki to become a clone of Black Star with similar strength and speed.

Shadow☆Star: Zeroth Form: an upgraded katana. His scarf is made of shadows strong and long enough to support him high in the air and sharp enough to cut flesh.

Shadow☆Star: Zeroth Form Masamune Infinity: Produces numerous blades of shadow capable of harming the Kishin.

Initial Thoughts

As far as I can tell, Jin Mori shouldn't pose too much of a threat to either of my characters. Lancer can outspeed him easily and finish him with Gae Bolg, if he doesn't kill both combatants with it's thrown ability. As for Black Star, he is both faster and stronger, with versatility that will allow him to take Jin Mori down and fight toe to toe with Weather Wizard, either by blitzing with Third Form afterimages, or using Zeroth form's scarf to take him on in the air.

Avatar image for sy8000
#11 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt: @sirfizzwhizz:Before I respond, I have to ask if Black Star eating a nuke and lifting one of the moon's teeth is arguing him above the limits.

Avatar image for chromtheexalt
#12 Edited by ChromTheExalt (703 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Well, the laser isn't really nuke-level. You can see that he clearly doesn't spit it that far, as it's still on the moon. I'd say it's a bit above skyscraper level.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#13 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

If the opponent feel it's skyscraper level in size, then its all fine.

Avatar image for sy8000
#14 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Well, the laser isn't really nuke-level. You can see that he clearly doesn't spit it that far, as it's still on the moon. I'd say it's a bit above skyscraper level.

They were flying outside the moon at that point and it made a huge mushroom cloud plus he literally ate it. It's a far better feat than you're giving it credit for, but if you're arguing it at a lower level then I suppose it's okay.

Avatar image for sy8000
#15 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt:

As far as I can tell, Jin Mori shouldn't pose too much of a threat to either of my characters. Lancer can outspeed him easily and finish him with Gae Bolg, if he doesn't kill both combatants with it's thrown ability.

Mori reacted to an attack fast enough to ignite air while handicapped. Granted the air was made dry which is why there was so much fire but it would've required speed just to make it ignite in the first place. Plenty enough to keep up with Lancer from what you've shown.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Regarding Weather Wizard, from what you've shown Archer was capable of blocking Gae Bolg which means it can be defended against. Weather Wizard should be able to blow it away with hurricane force winds. Regarding his reaction speed Marc has caught lightning.

No Caption Provided

Granted no speed was stated here and lighting usually obeys strange rules in that regard in fiction, but his opponent was using an earlier version of his Weather Wand which would mean it has similar properties. Mardon's lightning actually does have comments confirming its speed, with Wally noting it's difficult to dodge, which would imply they move at natural speed (considering even Superman can see lightning in slow motion natural speed seems like a minimum).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Admittedly her version of the weapon being an earlier one might mean feats don't transfer but it's strongly implied Weather Wizard doesn't actually use or need the rod and just keeps it for psychological reasons (which is supported by his son having lightning crackling in his eyes). At this point he should logically just be a metahuman with the same abilities as the original Weather Wand.

No Caption Provided

The speed of his lightning is also an important point because your team will struggle to avoid it.

As for Black Star, he is both faster and stronger, with versatility that will allow him to take Jin Mori down and fight toe to toe with Weather Wizard, either by blitzing with Third Form afterimages, or using Zeroth form's scarf to take him on in the air.

I will admit Mori can't beat Black Star, but I don't think he can stop Weather Wizard so easily. If he tries lifting himself up to Marc he'd be leaving himself defenseless and would likely just get shot down. Marc can generate city level phenomena casually so there's no avoiding him mid-air.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This applies to wind manipulation as well:

No Caption Provided

Furthermore with composite feats Weather Wizard has his Post-Flashpoint knowledge of how to create absolute zero blizzards

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So your team will have to deal with absolute zero winds they can't possibly tank that blanket the entire city.

Avatar image for mylittlefascist
#16 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30842 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for chromtheexalt
#17 Edited by ChromTheExalt (703 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Mori reacted to an attack fast enough to ignite air while handicapped. Granted the air was made dry which is why there was so much fire but it would've required speed just to make it ignite in the first place. Plenty enough to keep up with Lancer from what you've shown.

Regarding Weather Wizard, from what you've shown Archer was capable of blocking Gae Bolg which means it can be defended against. Weather Wizard should be able to blow it away with hurricane force winds. Regarding his reaction speed Marc has caught lightning.

This is another speed feat for Lancer that should prove he is at least as fast as Mori, but beyond that, Gae Bolg's hax to always pierce the heart is the main reason I don't see him losing. Gae Bolg instantly pierces the opponents heart when activated, the thrust of the spear actually comes after the piercing of the opponent's heart. Unless Mori can replicate the feat of the only person to avoid Gae Bolg (Saber) and feel that Lancer is about to activate his Noble Phantasm and move preemptively he is just going to end up with a hole in his heart.

As for Weather Wizard, Lancer probably can't do much against a flying opponent, but that's what Black Star is for.

The speed of his lightning is also an important point because your team will struggle to avoid it.

Black Star has literally cought lasers and thrown them back. I'm pretty sure that any lightning shot at him would just get returned to sender or thrown at Jin.

I will admit Mori can't beat Black Star, but I don't think he can stop Weather Wizard so easily. If he tries lifting himself up to Marc he'd be leaving himself defenseless and would likely just get shot down. Marc can generate city level phenomena casually so there's no avoiding him mid-air.

I'll just point back to the laser eat, which even at skyscraper level proves a city attack wouldn't do too much to him considering how little damage the laser actually did to him. Not to mention Black Star will only go into the air as long as he needs to, if he know's Weather Wizard has air superiority he'll just knock him to the ground and use the other forms of the demon sword to take his opponent down for good. It's also worth mentioning that he was able to completely erase his prescence mid-fight and switch out with Tsubaki. This was a beginning of series feat and with the Forth Form Tsubaki would be able to give Weather Wizard some trouble, letting him destroy him with either his Soul Menace, or his overpowering strength.

Furthermore with composite feats Weather Wizard has his Post-Flashpoint knowledge of how to create absolute zero blizzards

So your team will have to deal with absolute zero winds they can't possibly tank that blanket the entire city.

I really just don't see that being an opener against a non-speedster opponent. And by the time Weather Wizard realizes Black Star is fast enough to warrant it he'll likely be dead or too busy keeping Black Star from killing him to do something like that.

Avatar image for sy8000
#18 Posted by Sy8000 (34795 posts) - - Show Bio

@chromtheexalt:

This is another speed feat for Lancer that should prove he is at least as fast as Mori, but beyond that, Gae Bolg's hax to always pierce the heart is the main reason I don't see him losing. Gae Bolg instantly pierces the opponents heart when activated, the thrust of the spear actually comes after the piercing of the opponent's heart. Unless Mori can replicate the feat of the only person to avoid Gae Bolg (Saber) and feel that Lancer is about to activate his Noble Phantasm and move preemptively he is just going to end up with a hole in his heart.

Mori would engage Lancer in melee and not give him the chance to attempt Gae Bolg. Considering there's no speed difference and Mori is more skilled, he should have the comfortable advantage there. Mori is also physically superior, having fracture Judge R's arm.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Same R who can trade blows with Judge Q that slice apart a distant factory with the air pressure they generate.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Regarding Gae Bolg, if Lancer gets a chance to use it during Mori's assault Mori still has a chance to counter. His combat instincts and reactions are fairly good having countered an attack as soon as it touched him.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Also if he catches wind of what Lancer is trying to do he can use Ssamsoo Taekgyeon Touch Awarness. Touch Awarness is a technique of keeping constant contact with your opponent to be aware of their next move by reading their muscles and capable of hitting them as Il-Pyo demonstrates against Mori.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Mori copies this technique and uses it on Il-Pyo. Using this he should be able to remain constantly aware of when Lancer is moving to use Gae Bong and disrupting the process.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Black Star has literally cought lasers and thrown them back. I'm pretty sure that any lightning shot at him would just get returned to sender or thrown at Jin.

Even if we assume those lasers were light speed (which would make Black Star above the limits), this still wouldn't translate into being able to catch lightning. Lightning has a temperature of 30,000 degrees Kelvin and you haven't shown heat resistance feats from Black Star to tank that. Also lighting is quite a bit harder to keep hold of than lasers given it constantly dances around.

I'll just point back to the laser eat, which even at skyscraper level proves a city attack wouldn't do too much to him considering how little damage the laser actually did to him.

You argue it at skyscraper level, then argue it would let him tank city level output? Regardless the attack left Black Star coughing up blood and as I've posted above, Weather Wizard's lightning is easily capable of destroying skyscrapers and he can keep hammering Black Star with this level of output.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Also, as I mentioned heat is a factor, lighting isn't just explosive force. Unless Black Star has heat resistance feats he will be fried by lighting. Also the electric surge caused by lighting will have an effect on Black Star's nerves like so:

No Caption Provided

Not to mention Black Star will only go into the air as long as he needs to, if he know's Weather Wizard has air superiority he'll just knock him to the ground and use the other forms of the demon sword to take his opponent down for good.

I'm not seeing how he knocks down Weather Wizard when Marc can repel all his attacks with wind.

It's also worth mentioning that he was able to completely erase his prescence mid-fight and switch out with Tsubaki. This was a beginning of series feat and with the Forth Form Tsubaki would be able to give Weather Wizard some trouble, letting him destroy him with either his Soul Menace, or his overpowering strength.

Marc wouldn't need to be aware of Black Star's location when he can hit him with AoE tornados. Black Star can't escape the range of his attacks while still being in the city. Also Marc is passive protected by the climate and I doubt Black Star could conceal himself from such a thing.

No Caption Provided

Regarding Soul Menace it appears to be a move used in melee not a ranged attack. There's no indication (that you've provided) how much damage it does when Black Star doesn't have contact with the target and if he sees it coming Marc should be able to react.

I really just don't see that being an opener against a non-speedster opponent. And by the time Weather Wizard realizes Black Star is fast enough to warrant it he'll likely be dead or too busy keeping Black Star from killing him to do something like that.

There's no reason he wouldn't. Post Flashpoint doesn't use it very often, but he's only been in a handful of fights with his limited appearances and it wouldn't be as reliable since the scale of his wind manipulation is far superseded by the Pre Flashpoint version.

For that matter I still don't see why keeping Black Star from killing him would be hard when Black Star can't really get to him in the air. If his assault is difficult to counter he can create cover using fog. He's created fog fast enough that Zoom and Inertia weren't able to move before there was so much they'd risk running into something.

No Caption Provided

Furthermore as I've pointed out Weather Wizard can stop Black Star with heatwaves that he hasn't shown the ability to tank and will mess up his nervous system. Note that doing so to Flash is impressive considering he has extremely high heat resistance via friction aura.

No Caption Provided

These can be fired in AoE form as shown here when he pushes back a wave of Black Lanterns creating one along with Heat Wave (this was hot enough to start melting Black Lantern rings which aren't even damaged by heat vision and blasts from Green Lanterns).

So Marc should have quite a few options for keeping Black Star at bay and eventually killing him with several forms of damage output he hasn't shown the ability to tank.

Avatar image for mylittlefascist
#19 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30842 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Once this match is done, you'd have enough for semi-finals perhaps more. Are you still declaring the tourney dead?

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#20 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mylittlefascist
#21 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30842 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mylittlefascist
#22 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30842 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deathhero61
#23 Posted by DeathHero61 (18485 posts) - - Show Bio