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#1 Posted by GuedesEvery (611 posts) - - Show Bio

Location: Hogwarts attacked

Conditions: Dumbledore have Elder hand, Voldemort too

Match 1 Morals on

Match 2 Morals off

Who wins, Hogwarts or Voldemort follows, Light or Darkness, please give good arguments

The two teams can kill, ko or desarm

Lets go guys

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5a46927fc5463 (2849 posts) - - Show Bio

Close fight, I will give it to team 1 with Albus being the obvious MVP.

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#3 Posted by WeAreTheFlash (2084 posts) - - Show Bio

It all dwindles down to Voldmort vs Dumbledore. I think Voldemorts team win round 1, and then round 2 goes to Dumbledore.

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#4 Posted by drudged (244 posts) - - Show Bio

Match 1: Team 1.

Match 2: Still Team 1.

You can argue that Team 2 has Voldemort and Bellatrix, but that is offset by the presence of Dumbledore completely (and him with the Elder wand). Dumbledore has shown more impressive dueling capabilities considering he was holding back seriously against Voldemort (when they dueled in the Ministry of Magic compared to Voldemort who was desperately trying to best Dumbledore). Add in Snape who probably possesses an impressive magical affinity to come up with something like the Sectumsempra curse and they can pretty much overpower Bellatrix and Voldemort. Bellatrix has the tendency to be pretty cocky as well, and Snape is brainy enough to take advantage of such scenario. (The fact that Bellatrix lost to Molly might be a huge gaping evidence against her ability to focus in battle, which is not going to help against Snape)

Harry vs Draco is a wash. We know that Harry is a lot more capable than Draco in terms of dueling skills.

That leaves Minverva vs. Dolohov. This can go either way, but again, Dumbledore and Snape can just help her out.

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#5 Posted by WeAreTheFlash (2084 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudged: Just because he wasn't trying to kill Voldemort doesn't mean he was holding back.

You can go full try hard playing defence, and not have any offence.

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#6 Edited by drudged (244 posts) - - Show Bio

@sanitrize1999: The real reason why I'm thinking Dumbledore had no intention to kill Voldemort was he knew it would be for naught considering he most likely had prior knowledge to the horcruxes of Voldemort. Now, the fact that he was not using his full capacity or arsenal of spells (similar to what he did vs. Grindelwald) made me get the idea that he was holding back. You can actually read that from the dialogue as well (it was as if Dumbledore was coaxing Voldemort during the said battle).

P.S: This is in terms of the book. In the movie, it was Voldemort who fleed when he figured that he was basically stalemating Dumbledore. That part also didn't really give justice to Dumbledore's dominance over Voldemort as described in the book, although Hermione mentioned that Albus Dumbledore was the "one wizard" Voldemort feared during the Sorcerer's Stone.

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#7 Posted by WeAreTheFlash (2084 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudged: I read the books. Also, Voldemort was more than likely nervous and unprepared when he fought Dumbledore. It said something in the book that two of his spells missed horrendously. A battle between the two greatest wizards alive, would've taken hours.

I presume Dumbldedore wasn't using his "full power" because Voldemore is a coward. Voldemort was already nervous, going full out would've caused him to flee sooner, and thus the ministry would've arrived too late to see Voldemorts return.

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#8 Posted by GuedesEvery (611 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm

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#9 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore actually neutralized bellatrix with no difficulty and overwhelmed voldemort on his own. He can do that again. Harry beats draco. Snape and Minerva can at least hold Dolohov off.

Overall, going with team 1.

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

Dumbledore should stalemate Voldemort with morals on, but beats the Dark Lord with morals off.

Snape vs Bellatrix IS close, and although people say Bella stomps I'm going with Snape.

Harry is just better than Draco.

Minerva is just that better than Dolohov.

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#11 Posted by JasonBourne_ (434 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore would stomp all of Team 2 if he had no morals

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#12 Posted by Goltop (60 posts) - - Show Bio

Difficult match, I guess Dumledore's team wins. The reason is that most of the lesser combatants would die and then it would eventually go down to Dumbledore vs Voldemort and Dumbledore seemed slightly superior in OotP.

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#13 Edited by cpt_nice (10040 posts) - - Show Bio

With morals on, team 2 wins a majority, mostly because of Bellatrix.

The obvious match ups seem Voldemort vs Dumbledore and Harry vs Draco. Those fights would both go on for a bit, since they are somewhat comparable in dueling prowess. The issue is neither Snape or Minerva would last long against Bellatrix. She has feats of fodderising duelists with more feats than them. Dolohov could easily hold off and arguably beat either Snape or Minerva as well. While wounded and fatigued he made short work of a fresh Mad Eye.

So the way it plays out is Bellatrix stomps either McGonagall or Snape, then proceeds to help Dolohov with the other person. If Harry has beaten Draco by this point he would easily get one shotted. I assume Voldemort and Dumbledore would probably still be at each other, but Tom should be able to win if he gets a bit of help.

The only way I see the good guys winning is if Dumbledore uses some spells to protect his allies while dueling. He has been shown to be able to do this, even while dueling an expert like Voldemort, who will not do the same for his team mates. So a few times out of 10, I see Dumbledore's team winning that way.

In the case of morals off, Dumbledore might actually finish off Voldemort a tad faster, which increases their chances at winning.

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#14 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Battle at the ministry was basically dumbledore protecting harry vs voldemort and bellatrix - and he neutralized her with no difficulty. while voldemort can defend himself from dumbledore for a while, he can't keep him from taking out his companions.

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#15 Edited by cpt_nice (10040 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

Bellatrix was ultimately restrained by an animated sculpture, which is not a factor here. Plus reason dictates she was already fatigued at that point. She managed to block a spell from Dumbledore while in that state. Fresh, and with the chaos going on of a 4 way duel, I dont see him taking her down at all unless he specifically focusses on her. A luxury he won't have with Voldemort breathing down his neck.

Also, in this scenario Voldemort has the elder wand as well, which gives him a small buff.

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#16 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice:

Bellatrix was ultimately restrained by an animated sculpture, which is not a factor here. Plus reason dictates she was already fatigued at that point. She managed to block a spell from Dumbledore while in that state. Fresh, and with the chaos going on of a 4 way duel, I dont see him taking her down at all unless he specifically focusses on her. A luxury he won't have with Voldemort breathing down his neck.

Also, in this scenario Voldemort has the elder wand as well, which gives him a small buff.

He had fought and beaten more people than she had at the time, run up the same flight of stairs she had, and he is much older than her. Even with voldemort breathing down his neck, he took her down with an absolutely casual spell.

The spell she had blocked was when he was far away, and a very offhand one. Nothing suggests he needs to pay attention to take her down, when he has in fact shown how effortlessly she is dealt with by people on her level. Heck, even in their duel itself he has plenty of opportunities to deal with someone in bellatrix's tier.

Voldemort never mastered the elder wand, if he is given that buff, he is featless with it. And dumbledore has already beaten almost equally skilled wielding the elder wand. Nothing suggests he can keep dumbledore from taking out bellatrix and dolohov any more than he could at the ministry.

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#17 Posted by the_red_viper (12781 posts) - - Show Bio

With my limited knowledge of HP I would say:

Dumbledore > Voldemort

Harry > Draco

Snape >= Lestrange

Minerva ? Dolohov (honestly I have no idea on this one)

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#18 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

With my limited knowledge of HP I would say:

Snape >= Lestrange

Minerva ? Dolohov (honestly I have no idea on this one)

Bellatrix's has significantly better combat feats than snape does, and dolohov has killed lupin and beaten moody. Minerva isn't winning against him. Other than that, you're on track.

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#19 Posted by Xerolot (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Yeah mostly accurate friend but:

Snape >= Lestrange

Lestrange >> Snape

Snape lacks combat feats while Bella has plenty of them. And her combat feats are leagues better than his.

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#20 Edited by cpt_nice (10040 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

He had fought and beaten more people than she had at the time, run up the same flight of stairs she had, and he is much older than her.

You know as well as I that the death eaters are fodder to him, so he did not exert himself from dueling. Also, Bellatrix already chased Harry halfway across the ministry. Dumbledore just arrived at the scene.

Even with voldemort breathing down his neck, he took her down with an absolutely casual spell.

He did not take her down with the spell

The statue of the witch ran at Bellatrix, who screamed and sent spells streaming uselessly off its chest, before it dived at her, pinning her to the floor. Meanwhile, the goblin and the house-elf scuttled toward the fireplaces set along the wall, and the one-armed centaur galloped at Voldemort, who vanished and reappeared beside the pool.

He animated a sculpture which took her down. This wont be a factor in this fight. She obviously panicked and was already in a fatigued state after giving chase to Harry, battling Tonks, Sirius and Kingsley back to back and then being outnumbered by a host of aurors AND Dumbledore, having to flee the scene. In the scenario proposed, she is fresh at the start of the fight. It is not comparable in the slightest.

The spell she had blocked was when he was far away, and a very offhand one.

Based on what?

Bellatrix turned tail and ran as Dumbledore whipped around. He aimed a spell at her but she deflected it. She was halfway up the steps now.

Nothing about him being far or anything.

Nothing suggests he needs to pay attention to take her down, when he has in fact shown how effortlessly she is dealt with by people on her level.

Nothing suggests what you say. If this is the case, then why did Dumbledore not take her out directly with a spell, especially since Harry's safety was at stake?

Voldemort never mastered the elder wand, if he is given that buff, he is featless with it.

Reaching. The OP clearly intends both Dumbledore and Voldemort to be EW buffed. Voldemort has incredible magical prodigy. Are you trying to pretend like he can't use a wand which will buff his magical abilities?

And dumbledore has already beaten almost equally skilled wielding the elder wand.

While in his prime, half a century ago.

Nothing suggests he can keep dumbledore from taking out bellatrix and dolohov any more than he could at the ministry.

Except, you know, the book itself.

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#21 Posted by the_red_viper (12781 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: @princearagorn1: *shrug* if you say so, as I said my knowledge is limited to reading the books like 10 years ago, lol.

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#22 Posted by cpt_nice (10040 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice:

You know as well as I that the death eaters are fodder to him. Also, Bellatrix already chased Harry halfway across the ministry. Dumbledore just arrived at the scene.

Yes, they are - point is, he had actually beaten more people than her, if that's supposed to cause fatigue. She also had a lot of time just playing hide and seek afterwards, and talking. Can you post the quote which indicates either her or harry - who had been through more than she had - were not in peak condition due to fatigue? I can't remember anything of the sort.

He did not take her down with the spell

She was effectively out of the fight with no effort is the point - that's all he needs to do here.

He animated a sculpture which took her down. This wont be a factor in this fight. She obviously panicked and was already in a fatigued state after giving chase to Harry, battling Tonks, Sirius and Kingsley back to back and then being outnumbered by a host of aurors AND Dumbledore, having to flee the scene. In the scenario proposed, she is fresh at the start of the fight. It is not comparable in the slightest.

Nothing is going to stop her from panicking against, since she is still as outclassed by dumbledore as she was before. while she had faced three people at the time, he had faced six - and now he is completely fresh as well - and Dumbledore getting fresh is a hell of a lot more threatening that Bellatrix.

Aurors don't get involved till the end, ftr.

Based on what?

Based on the description itself. He wasn't even fighting her at the time, just turns around and shoots it, while she is halfway out of the place already.

Nothing about him being far or anything.

Dumbledore was rounding death eaters in the middle of the room:

Dumbledore had most of the remaining Death Eaters grouped in the middle of the room, seemingly immobilized by invisible ropes. Mad-Eye Moody had crawled across the room to where Tonks lay and was attempting to revive her

bellatrix was fighting behind the platform, and she was already on the stairs out when dumbledore attacked.

There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dais. Harry saw Kingsley, yelling in pain, hit the ground.

He aimed a spell at her but she deflected it. She was halfway up the steps now

So yes, there was quite a bit of distance between them, and he wasn't even fighting her at the time.

Nothing suggests what you say. If this is the case, then why did Dumbledore not take her out directly with a spell, especially since Harry's safety was at stake?

He did neutralize her with a single spell, regardless of which one he used. She was unable to harm anyone after that, as she will be here.

Reaching. The OP clearly intends both Dumbledore and Voldemort to be EW buffed. Voldemort has incredible magical prodigy. Are you trying to pretend like he can't use a wand which will buff his magical abilities?

No, I am saying he doesn't have any feats with the said buff to say it will make a difference.

While in his prime.

But also a wizard of equal skill, and lacking the elder wand himself.

Except, you know, the book itself.

In the book, she is completely neutralized, unable to harm even harry even when voldemort was with her after a single spell from dumbledore. She hasn't gained any powers since then.

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#24 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore is the mvp. Team 1.

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#25 Posted by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 both rounds.

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#26 Posted by Laurus (1622 posts) - - Show Bio

R1 Team 1

R2 Team 1 stomps.