Dream of the Endless vs the Leviathan/Collective Unconcious (Vertigo vs Vertigo)

@soratoumiga@yasindermann@lightingjack@y3kthunder@einefaust

many of you might be wondering who the "leviathan" is.

the Leviathan is a cosmic entity in Mike Carey's (the same guy who wrote Lucifer) "the Unwritten" published by Vertigo.

it is the collective unconcious beyond physics, and is the embodiment/creator/eater of an infinite story hierarchy of infinite dimensions.

these infinite dimensions however, each contain multi-layeral hierarchies in them. effectively making the Leviathan, DC Comics go-to, triple infinite-D being or so. (but these infinite dimensions are very metaphysical and abstract).

since the Leviathan is beyond infinite-D many times. but is the creator/eater of stories and DREAM OF THE ENDLESS is the prince of all stories in DC.

i figured, why not have them fight?

also, most DC vs Marvel fights turn to fodder stomps (in DC's favor of course) so i decided to have Mike Carey's character fight Dream since they are both from the Vertigo Multiverse (which is beyond 3 orders of infinite hierarchy on its own without necessarily compositing DC).

By your description i feel like this is a legit tie

@norsewinter: This is the hardest match-up I've ever seen. I think you can just decide who the winner is, if they had an interaction or something. At some level of stupidity, there isn't a winner.

Therefore, I take dream from now on, because I like him more. I need to take a look closer to the leviathan first.

This is very interesting indeed I'll have to read the comic that the leviatian shows up in however I must say it seems it very well maybe a tie both are creators of stories but dream is dream an without dream there would be no story . I'll say tie for now.

@norsewinter: I'm curious have you read all of the unwritten cause I'm wondering if it may at all connect to other vertigo storys that may tie in to the sandman

Probably tie.

This is a tie but they both solo marvel

After much thought an reading of the unwritten I believe this is a huge stomp in the leviathans favor. If by some chance I read something to change my mind I'll do so but for now leviathan wins

No this thread is totally wrong. In a composite-DC scenario, Dream would be above the Unconcious as Dream formed the platform for the Leviathan's thought-actuality hax to even be possible and being the creative source behind the Sumerian Gods that created the Leviathan.

@etriel: oh ok so I did read it a tad wrong thanks

Etriel is correct. Dream's creation "pre-dates" the conception of the Unconscious. It is through him that the Leviathan/Unconscious sifts its power. At most, you can consider the Unconscious an inevitable function of Dream of the Endless, one that came to be as a result of the creation of Dream himself.

so then dream wins

gg

Any other thoughts on this?

I know this was a year ago, but do you think The Presence is above Leviathan of stories?

@userthatisme: is your fav character bugs

@userthatisme: yes I do believe the presence is and in a few days hopefully you will understand y I say that. My original statement right stemmed from bad thinking (the thought of unwritten being apart of dc) which I thought cause in tom Taylor's real world tom mentions a few other dc titles which later in his story it's revealed that some of those story's actually exist in not his universe but are another layer another universe so I thought perhaps dc was one of those universes I mean superman and books of magic were mentioned as fictional story's. But needless to say I was wrong. And what the leviathan is and represents is nothing in comparison to the presence. Gotta remember the leviathans story is done dc as a whole isn't there's a whole possiblity of adding even more to the presence not that he needs it but hope you get my point

I knew this already but I wanted a reason to make fun of YouTube commenters for claiming leviathan is above presence.(when Presence is really completely above him)

Would you also say that Azathoth dreaming things up only go to his own universe or do you believe it can go to all of fiction? (as I don’t believe that crap and can claim (since the presence is supposed to be the Omnipotent God’s of the real world (yes not just a christian God, but every God).) wouldn’t that mean that he’s technically above azathoth?

Dream GodStomp.

why bump to say that? just a though

Leviathan wins because it contains infinite consciousnesses and is a representation and the archetype of real life humanity's collective consciousness. Or dream, depending on “How you look at it”, because Dreams are = to fiction and the Leviathan can be still seen as fiction because even if the Leviathan exists as a representation of something beyond our mind(in the real world outside of human consciousness) or beyond fiction, we still have to think of it within our minds in a form of fiction in order for it to “exist” for us in the first place. The phrase "How you look at it '' in this instance, refers to what we think in our minds, too, and plays around with the notion of the conscious mind--in which both Dream of the Endless and Leviathan of Stories both represent by nature. In order for us to understand and embrace those two characters we must first understand that this battle isn’t simply limited to a yes or no question. To determine the winner is to utilize our minds, and these two "characters" both represent our minds.

Tbh, at the end of the day its origin stories involving the sumerian gods are only a story that is therefore a part of the Leviathan–since the Leviathan itself is also the symbol for the stories that humans dream of.

Leviathan probably wins by intent.

@dc1008: didnt know people were mid sclaers three years ago