Dr Strange vs DC Justice League

@zetsu-san:

Okay, and I accept that, but again not my point crowbar and Atoms immunity the "same", it just that while in different ways, fine, point is, in different ways, both got immunity, even if Atom immunity not as good as crowbar it good enough-especially since Atom in this fight got powerful partners helping him-to let Atom and his crew get Strange

Thing is though, they're not similar enough for the feats to be comparable.

It not about they be similar at all, again I not say that

Atom has resistance, but the Crowbar actively attacks the space-time and enchantments that it comes into contact with.

Detail of how they both immune not matter, point is by different (read that, "different", not saying they same or similar at all, different) ways they got qualities let them bypass magic, that the point

I can see why Atom might be able to resist Strange attempting to tamper with his body via magic, directly, but it shouldn't help much against Crimson Bands of Cyttorak for example.

You assume with person as powerful and fast as Atom alone much less other super fast characters in this thread Strange get chance to switch to Bands or any other attack before he get swarmed. Not likely, to claim that I feel is disrespecting abilities of League, it acting like they statues who will let Strange do anything he want to do no resistance, there two sides to this battle, assuming Strange will get chance and time to do all these wonderful things to Atom alone much less team, many who super fast and super powerful as well simply not likely

Plus the very arc where Atom had his declared immunity in the first place, involved him getting put under a spell. Yes, he did manage to resist it in the end, but he's clearly not "immune" like the characters kept insisting.

And like I say he showed immunity enough that it a good chance Strange not gonna one shot, if he not one shot Atom alone much less team got the speed, hax, power, strongness etc. to get to Strange before he can recover or attack again, really Strange gots no room for error

Plus Atom doesn't seem to always operate at his peak levels.

Neither do Strange, that go both ways

I respect that how you personal feel-really-but unless something undeniable PIS (like say, street leveler touching super fast characters like Flash, WW, Superman, etc.) I try not to always claim "PIS" on feats, even when they done by characters I don't like. If a character does something at least 3 or more time from at or beginning of they creation-and OP TP by Dracula fit that criteria-then I accept it something they can do (fair)?

Dracula as a character, is all over the place. Most of the time, he's just a mid tier with decent hax. He just has a bunch of random feats against high tiers, that are completely out of place, and completely at odds with the level he normally functions at. So yes, I would say it's PIS, exactly like street levelers touching super fast characters.

And you got right to feel that way, I and anybody else got right to feel different, just proclaim it PIS when he done it most of his career in and out of comics, in all kinds of versions of him I not think is feasible

Furthermore, as I said, even the comic makes it clear that Dracula's TP didn't work because it was powerful, it worked because it was different. Once Strange was hit by it the first time, he was able to alter his defenses and completely rebuff Dracula's next attempt, despite Dracula being under a heavy amp.

No way to legit claim for sure that in random battle with J'onn this "first time" he not fall to J'onn's TP either.

Again, the Dracula instance would be far more applicable as an argument for something like Tsukuyomi working, than J'onn who just uses convential TP that Strange encounters all the time.

You really try to claim Strange-for sure-can handle/got the concentrations to deal with a surprise TP assault from OP TP like J'onn alone in random encounter much less while he dealing with all these OP JLA members at same time?

REALLY?

C'mon. Maybe 2, even up to 3 of this team but all of them? No. Just don't think that reasonable

Martian has manage to probe and even scan briefly mind of one than one version of Spectre, and even defend against Overmind of Heaven-guy that can do that TP Strange, no doubt. J'onn-when he really put his mind to to TP someone-more OP than you realize

Spectre's power goes up and down base on many different factors ranging from plot (as in he's literally a powerful or as weak as he needs to be, for events to play out the way "god wills it") to the mental state of the host.

One of times I talk about Spectre between hosts, J'onn scan his mind and others around world

When Spectre was TPed by J'onn he was under heavy mental conflict and J'onn caught him by surprise.

I not talking about that time, but even then, Spectre at his weakest still powerful, more than many, it still a good feat of TP a powerful magic being, and in this case Strange would be "surprised" as well while he fighting other powerful foes at the same time. Strange not invincible, he been felled by less, so it not reasonable say for sure he would win in this scenario

Hal is also one of the weakest Spectre hosts, from my understanding. Spectre's a known jobber who has plot justified reasons for jobbing,

That true of Spectre sometimes, but that true of many characters include Strange, it don't change how powerful they actually are

it makes absolutely no sense for J'onn to be able to effect someone like him, if he were actually functioning at a proper power level.

That why I say earlier J'onn has affected different levels of Spectre, while I don't think he can TP most powerful versions I think he can briefly probe which J'onn has did, Control, NO, peer into short time, yes, and a J"onn who can do that much to more powerful Spectre can absolute control less powerful Strange who not at Spectre level

Just gave examples where that not true

Don't use low showings and act like higher ones don't exist, please, Nobody, even people like Silver Surfer, Phantom Stranger, even Spectre got a perfect win/loss record, lose sometimes don't mean that the character's "regular" level

And he has more instances of it being true than not and it makes more logical sense for his character than for the reverse to be true. He has had his senses controlled via magic, and has even been booted out of Zatanna's mind:

Gallery

Tell me, what makes more sense. That a random alien, with purely conventional TP, would struggle against magic (A common trope in comics as well as DC in specific)? Or that said random alien can somehow beat a supposedly Universal+ being in telepathic power?

J'onn not some "random alien", at his best he done things like causal TP on planet level more than once, and-through his subconscious, not even really try-TP his peoples to not pass on to next level of exist, even though they all TPs like J'onn, TP regular beings on planet level great, TP on planet level against other TPs RIDICULOUS

There's clear context to the latter instance.

As I just say, don't think he can "beat" highest form of Spectre, but probe briefly yes, and even affect lower versions yes, meaning if J'onn can do that, the ratio to control less powerful Strange is legit

Having issues with characters like Arion, Faust, Zatanna, etc. Are not "low showings". These are the characters who actually operate in his intended weight class. Not Spectre...

Just now addressed that

Hope format I use in this post more acceptable

Yes actually, that was quite helpful.

Cool.

@starstriker:

Detail of how they both immune not matter, point is by different (read that, "different", not saying they same or similar at all, different) ways they got qualities let them bypass magic, that the point

But that's the issue. They don't both "bypass" magic. Wrecker's crowbar will actively destroy an enchantment that it makes contact with. Captain Atom's body just helps him resist spells if they are used to effect his body directly.

The details here absolutely matter, as it completely changes what tactics are effective and what isn't.

You assume with person as powerful and fast as Atom alone much less other super fast characters in this thread Strange get chance to switch to Bands or any other attack before he get swarmed. Not likely, to claim that I feel is disrespecting abilities of League, it acting like they statues who will let Strange do anything he want to do no resistance, there two sides to this battle, assuming Strange will get chance and time to do all these wonderful things to Atom alone much less team, many who super fast and super powerful as well simply not likely

Strange doesn't need to "switch" to the bands or anything. They are one of his go to spells and one that is quite effective as a tool for zoning and crowed control. As soon as he casts it, he'd be applying pressure to the whole team at once.

Speed isn't a cumulative thing. The amount of opponents doesn't really matter. What matters is if any individual member of the JL is going to be able to get to Strange and break through his shields, before he can cast his first spell. I don't foresee that happening.

All characters here are incredibly inconsistent when it comes to speed. That's just how comics are. Everyone here, including strange, has incredibly massive high ends and low ends. If they were to meet and fight, I honestly just foresee speed getting ignored entirely and characters just operating at similar levels. Comics in general just seem to have this constant, unspoken speed equalize rule.

The only one who might be exempt from that is the Flash, but even he doesn't usually open with top speed pico blitzes when in character.

No way to legit claim for sure that in random battle with J'onn this "first time" he not fall to J'onn's TP either.

We can, but J'onn uses normal psychic based telepathy. It's not something Strange doesn't encounter regularly.

That why I say earlier J'onn has affected different levels of Spectre, while I don't think he can TP most powerful versions I think he can briefly probe which J'onn has did, Control, NO, peer into short time, yes, and a J"onn who can do that much to more powerful Spectre can absolute control less powerful Strange who not at Spectre level

This is not just Spectre at his weakest version. This is a Spectre whose host was heavily conflicted and actively rebelling against the Spectre itself. All J'onn did was take advantage of the distraction to quickly show him some images. That's all.

There's nothing here that can be applied to Strange.

I see no reason to believe that Strange couldn't have replicated that same feat in those specific moments. In fact, I'd say it's fairly similar to that time Strange TPed HoM Wanda.

Yeah the Spectre feat is kind of wanked.

First, Spectre was mentally unstable in that issue and randomly passed out a few pages before.

Second, J'onn TP'ed Hal Spectre, who isn't entirely consistent when it comes to TP Resistance, and got outperformed by Batman.

Third, we actually saw how a Stable Hal Spectre compares to MMH in TP. He erased the memory of Flash's identity from the entire world, including the JLA.

Gallery

And it's not like you need to be Spectre level in strength to resist MMH's telepathy. Lots of people have.

@zetsu-san:

Detail of how they both immune not matter, point is by different (read that, "different", not saying they same or similar at all, different) ways they got qualities let them bypass magic, that the point

But that's the issue. They don't both "bypass" magic. Wrecker's crowbar will actively destroy an enchantment that it makes contact with. Captain Atom's body just helps him resist spells if they are used to effect his body directly.

You are playing semantics, if Atom's body "just helps him resist spells if they are used to effect his body directly" means that if Strange does just that, Atom gonna keep come at him and clobber him, rest of super fast JLA will come swarming in behind him while magician getting weakened by J'onn TP and Strange is done.

The details here absolutely matter, as it completely changes what tactics are effective and what isn't.

Details sure do matter, and the detail that Strange gots no legit way of out react all these super fast super powerful foes before they clobber him without plot armor-which not allowed on Comicvine-remains in effect.

You assume with person as powerful and fast as Atom alone much less other super fast characters in this thread Strange get chance to switch to Bands or any other attack before he get swarmed. Not likely, to claim that I feel is disrespecting abilities of League, it acting like they statues who will let Strange do anything he want to do no resistance, there two sides to this battle, assuming Strange will get chance and time to do all these wonderful things to Atom alone much less team, many who super fast and super powerful as well simply not likely

Strange doesn't need to "switch" to the bands or anything. They are one of his go to spells and one that is quite effective as a tool for zoning and crowed control. As soon as he casts it, he'd be applying pressure to the whole team at once.

A team who many are faster than thought, who don't have to charge Strange at once from same direction, it ridiculous you claim Strange can catch that many super fast people with bands "at once"

Speed isn't a cumulative thing. The amount of opponents doesn't really matter.

It does, it doubtful Strange can for sure catch one foe who is MFTL (or even mach 10) much less several, to claim this is fan fiction, show me multiple examples of Strange catching multiple foes who that fast you can't, Strange is person who been out reacted by like of Mantis and brute like Piledriver, it not a sure thing he can catch WW alone (she got the combat speed feats of lasso Jesse Quick out of speed force-accord to Wally Flash that takes over FTL speed to do-speak of him, lasso Wally Flash when he caught in force making him race around out of control at picosecond speed, and lasso Superman when he bloodlust not holding back his speed on two different occasions) much less her and Flash and Superman and Captain Marvel andCaptain Atom and Hal Jordan, all these people coming at Strange from different areas, I am literal laughing out loud, it not possible you try to serious claim that

What matters is if any individual member of the JL is going to be able to get to Strange and break through his shields, before he can cast his first spell. I don't foresee that happening.

It don't matter you personal "don't forsee that happening", facts bypass what you willing to see, Strange cannot out react all these people and resist J'onn's uber TP and recover from surprise when he hit Atom with a spell that don't work then he get blasted by Atom-who has one shot likes of Mr Majestic and Major Force-a half a second later, followed by assaults from rest of team a fraction of a second after that, your denying this don't stop truth.

All characters here are incredibly inconsistent when it comes to speed. That's just how comics are. Everyone here, including strange, has incredibly massive high ends and low ends. If they were to meet and fight, I honestly just foresee speed getting ignored entirely and characters just operating at similar levels.

That fine that because you want Strange to win that what you,

personalsee that would happen, but that your personal head cannon, that scenario can happen all you want in there; out of that arena however, "honestly" in reality Strange get overwhelmed by all these people speed, you can't dictate speed "not" be a factor nowhere else but in your mind. If Strange get to be the best he can be in this fight, so do others

Comics in general just sesem to have this constant, unspoken speed equalize rule.

Not in all cases, and WW Supes and especially Flash, as speed is his only power, has enough feats to show Strange gonnal get swarmed, I nor anybody else have to accept your "speeds gonna be equalized" claim cause you say so, you have no jurisdiction to force that claim on me or anybody else who know the speed feats of the other characters and feel different

The only one who might be exempt from that is the Flash, but even he doesn't usually open with top speed pico blitzes when in character.

Um-in youropinion, there are many many examples of Flash and the other characters using speed right away in a fight, and to get Strange they don't even have to move their fastest, there too many of them, understand that I or nobody else obligated to accept characters not, as rules in Comic vine state use their abilities at their best. I afraid you got to go on from here with some kind of arbitrary "speed equalized" rule for this thread, it don't say that true in the OP, therefore it not in effect in thread

No way to legit claim for sure that in random battle with J'onn this "first time" he not fall to J'onn's TP either.

We can, but J'onn uses normal psychic based telepathy. It's not something Strange doesn't encounter regularly.

You ignore that even "normal" J'onn TP formidable, and Strange is fighting all these other OP people at same time, if Strange resist a bit at first J'onn gonna increase power while Strange got to concentrate on other super fast super powerful foes at same time (including one who got great magic immunity), the Strange who can resist all those assaults at same time only exist in your head cannon, I'm afraid

That why I say earlier J'onn has affected different levels of Spectre, while I don't think he can TP most powerful versions I think he can briefly probe which J'onn has did, Control, NO, peer into short time, yes, and a J"onn who can do that much to more powerful Spectre can absolute control less powerful Strange who not at Spectre level

This is not just Spectre at his weakest version. This is a Spectre whose host was heavily conflicted and actively rebelling against the Spectre itself. All J'onn did was take advantage of the distraction to quickly show him some images. That's all.

It "not all", you ignoring I say J'onn also effect more powerful versions, go back and read post

There's nothing here that can be applied to Strange.

It can, a J'onn that got TP that can briefly scan Spectre's mind when Spectre between hosts (while at same time scanning other minds in world) can definite affect and control weaker Strange while he fighting other super fast super powerful foes at same time, that non negotioning plain as day fact

I see no reason to believe that Strange couldn't have replicated that same feat in those specific moments.

Again that fine you personal "see no reason", facts say otherwise

In fact, I'd say it's fairly similar to that time Strange TPed HoM Wanda.

Strange not gonna have time to concentrate to do nothing but get swarmed and soon after clobbered

@karkussaid:

Yeah the Spectre feat is kind of wanked.

First, Spectre was mentally unstable in that issue and randomly passed out a few pages before.

Second, J'onn TP'ed Hal Spectre, who isn't entirely consistent when it comes to TP Resistance, and got outperformed by Batman.

Third, we actually saw how a Stable Hal Spectre compares to MMH in TP. He erased the memory of Flash's identity from the entire world, including the JLA.

Gallery

But J'onn has manage to scan more powerful versions of Spectre's mind, to do that mean he can not just scan but take over weaker Strange's mind, at very least force magician to extend much energy try to resist while he fighting other JLA members at same time, it highly not likely Strange gonna be able to do that without-ahem-"wanking"

And it's not like you need to be Spectre level in strength to resist MMH's telepathy. Lots of people have.

Want to play that, Strange been hurt and even beat by people waaaay slower,weaker or both than people on this JLA team before, so if that the new rule, ignore people best feats and claim the lower ones only things that count, cool, times people like Spider-Man and Cage hurt and beated Strange mean this JLA team wipe out magician for sure

Some pretty wild reaches being made lately to give Strange a for sure win...

@starstriker:

But J'onn has manage to scan more powerful versions of Spectre's mind, to do that mean he can not just scan but take over weaker Strange's mind

How does scanning one characters mind mean you can take over the mind of anyone weaker than that character? Scanning is a very basic action, and MMH was overwhelmed by the scan.

Want to play that

This isn't even lowball. There are many instances of MMH being unable to control characters weaker than Spectre, while there are 0 instances of him controlling anyone near the Spectre.

Some pretty wild reaches being made lately to give Strange a for sure win...

Never said Strange wins.

@karkus:

But J'onn has manage to scan more powerful versions of Spectre's mind, to do that mean he can not just scan but take over weaker Strange's mind

How does scanning one characters mind mean you can take over the mind of anyone weaker than that character? Scanning is a very basic action, and MMH was overwhelmed by the scan

Spectre at his best got just about best offense/defense minds, if J'onn can even for a second scan such a mind, since Strange mind nowhere near Spectre mind it mean by ratio J'onn will have no problem not just scan but control Strange mind-especially since Strange fighting other super fast super powerful people at the same time.

Want to play that

This isn't even lowball. There are many instances of MMH being unable to control characters weaker than Spectre, while there are 0 instances of him controlling anyone near the Spectre.

J'onn don't have to control nobody on Spectre level to control Strange, and is lowball, like I said Strange been hurt and beat by people much weaker and slower than this JLA team, what good for goose good for gander

Some pretty wild reaches being made lately to give Strange a for sure win...

Never said Strange wins.

Even better, then that the ball game, topic of this thread is: "Dr Strange vs. Justice League", if you not say Strange wins, then nothing more to discuss

@starstriker: Still not seeing it. What TP resistance feats does Corrigan Spectre have? MMH got overwhelmed by mentally scanning Corrigan Spectre. That doesn't mean he can control anyone weaker than Corrigan Spectre.

It's still not lowball. People weaker than Corrigan Spectre have resisted his probes too. Powerful stats don't give you TP resistance.

Several in JL can solo.

@karkus:

Still not seeing it.

Cause you don't want to, but you refusing to see it don't stop truth

What TP resistance feats does Corrigan Spectre have?

After by surprise ambush being taken over by Uber magic entity Eclipso, later fight him off

MMH got overwhelmed by mentally scanning Corrigan Spectre.

And another time he didn't when Spectre not even have host

That doesn't mean he can control anyone weaker than Corrigan Spectre.

Since he has, your point moot

It's still not lowball.

It still is

People weaker than Corrigan Spectre have resisted his probes too.

So by your standard then, those times>>>>>>>>>>>times they didn't, so from now on in honor of your standard, times Strange been hurt or beat by street leveler>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Strange beating more OP people

Powerful stats don't give you TP resistance.

Huh? Above sentence, don't know what you saying

Nobody got perfect win/loss record, you still try imply J'onn's defeats>>>>>>>>his victories?

okay then Cage ducking Strange's blast then knock him out>>>>>>>>>>Strange good feats

I don't know what point of this is, since you not say Strange wins, which is topic of thread, further conversation kinda pointless

@starstriker: Is there anyway you could type this in your native language so I could translate it? It's hard to understand what you're saying.

I'm not saying J'onns loses are greater than his wins, I'm saying there are 0 instances of him controlling Spectre, and dozens of him failing to control weaker people. It isn't lowball and you haven't explained why.

If Strange got knocked out by Luke Cage tier characters a majority of the time, then yeah you could use that. MMH fails to control characters as strong or stronger than Spectre 100% of the time.

Being strong doesn't make you resistant to Telepathy.

@karkus:

Is there anyway you could type this in your native language so I could translate it? It's hard to understand what you're saying.

You replying well enough, you be okay

I'm not saying J'onns loses are greater than his wins, I'm saying there are 0 instances of him controlling Spectre, and dozens of him failing to control weaker people.

J'onn doesn't have to be on Spectre level to beat Strange, your thinking a bit confused

It isn't lowball and you haven't explained why.

I have, many times, if I do equivalent of point to sky and say "it's blue" and you keep say "I don't see it" after awhile it not up to me to keep indefinite explain such obvious thing

If Strange got knocked out by Luke Cage tier characters a majority of the time, then yeah you could use that.

But he has been hurt even beat by people in Luke Cage strongness or speed tier so many times-Spider-Man at least twice Mantis Black Panther uber strong but slow Hulk Piledriver Wrecker list go on and on so again in honor of your standards those times>>>>>>>>>Strange better feats

MMH fails to control characters as strong or stronger than Spectre 100% of the time.

Even if that were true it irrelevant! Strange nowhere near Spectre so MMH don't have to be Spectre level to beat Strange

Being strong doesn't make you resistant to Telepathy.

??? I not claim anything about strong=TP resistant-talk about hard to understand...

Again, I don't know what point of this is, since you not say Strange wins, which is topic of thread, further conversation kinda pointless

I know I’m a “newbie” so my opinion does not matter. But, from what I’ve seen argued, it boils down to two things. First, do the auto shields work as really Auto and instantaneous. Since sometime they seem to work and sometimes not, I’ll say it’s a 50/50.

Second Is, considering the battle conditions, no one on the JL (or Strange) is out to kill right off, and no one is blood lusted. If so, it’s a different story. But no way this group of JL is going to all out attack with everything they have without surveying the scene. For all they know, they are dealing with a being that is like Parasite in nature and gets stronger the more he is attacked. So, I really think, in Character, Strange would get his shields up anyway because that would be his first move anyway. That moves the 50/50 to say 75/25 in favor of strange.

The unknowns to me are if TP would get strange considering other powerful TPs have failed in the past, and Captain Atom’s ability. I think most agree Strange beats Zatana in a magic battle.

Classic Strange takes this

Still Strange, not even close.

Classic strange low diff. Mostly due to Zatana.

Strange

Dr Strange stomps. He one-shotted a Galactus(who had consumed Dormammu, Satannish, Misan-ha-gorath,mystical realms, probably nightmare as well, this Galactus stomped hundreds of heroes).

The only issue here would be speed.

When did he do any of this?

@boutatakeanl: Dr strange comics, it was some comic 1-2 years ago.

Would you happen to have scans for any of that, cause those are some nasty high ends.

Superman blitz. Speed > Hax and Raw power bruh.

Strange's auto-shields should protect him from being blitzed.

Oh, if that is the case, he stomps.

@theonewhoknows: The Living Tribunal stomps the JLA.

Unless he gets knowledge and prep, Strange gets stomped. Zatanna alone is enough to put up a good fight. Add in the others and he gets wrecked multiple ways

@antebellum: Superman-just speed

Dr.Strange-Speed+hax+Time manuplation+auto shields+Magic that can speed him to ftl levels.

Dr.Strange>>>>>>>>>Superman speed blitz

Lmaoo

Strange fights beings who are equivalent to True Form Daktseid,JL who regularly gets wooped by a Darkseid Avatar gets Stomped by Strange..

Zatanna alone is a good match, the others seal the deal.

Dr Strange takes this.

Strange killed Eternity, Galactus and stood up to Living Tribunal. He solos the league

JL.

@lazerbeak: Zatanna stomp him she took out pralaya

ok

this is base tf