@elijah_c_washington said:
@wastelandman: Isn't Strange supposed to be like a regular guy in a crazy set of circumstances? Why is he talking like that? Lol.
Well he was pretty much a regular guy but after life changing events he dedicated decades of his life to becoming a sorcerer. As for why he talks like that, he mainly speaks like that in his classic comics. Strange and his stories was based on old pulp-fiction sorcerers who are very melodramatic.
@wastelandman: You have done a really good job showcasing your point. Don't think I'd need to jump in to counter or defend anything. But I will expand maybe a little and make note of some things.
Strange is quite adept at busting teams of even powerful characters as due to the nature of his abilities if they can't effectively counter certain things, numbers aren't going to matter much. I think people are writing him off because of the numbers against him (which admittedly isn't something to ignore). I'd say he could come into problems in large part due to Flash and Martian Manhunter, if they were both to blitz. With having to fend off a mental assault and such a fast physical assault at the same time, providing he doesn't take proper measures early into the fight, could throw him enough off balance. But a fight like this, stopping time is something he'd in-character be likely to do at the onset. Or bfr to the astral planes (or some other sort of trap dimensions) where he can deal with each at his leisure. And even to characters who can teleport, thinking that makes an automatic counter, his bfr is quite... effective. Mordo for example has experienced this several times, despite his own ,magic with things like teleporting, interdimensional and astral travel, etc, has needed to be plucked out by someone like Dormammu because he was trapped.
As for the deal with the stasis spiral spell being his power, this isn't even debatable since he had done it when he was limited to ONLY his personal power, which at that point had been waning after extended consistent use for some time (plus he was under the subtle affects of elemental magic at the time which messed with his powers), which would put him worse off than when he made the earlier statement of his powers being "at their lowest ebb." Yet still he was pulling that off. Which makes sense as his magic is at its strongest depending on his focus of will and desperation. Such as going from being hard pressed and on the defensive during a fight and then suddenly becoming an overwhelming force all because he was pushed to it. His willpower affects his magic (after all it is "first and foremost a mental discipline"). Sometimes he is his worst enemy in that regards (part of being human), and he often holds himself back (even his enemies make note of this), and a hit to his will makes his magic weaker. So when something like that situation where he pulled out the stasis spiral (which lead to an impressive series of feats in quick succession) it's actually explained in the comics to be why.
Also worth noting, when people draw feats from several different eras it becomes tricky with him. A lot is said of "classic Strange" but his power has often in flux for plot/character reasons. His Sorcerer Supreme series alone has him dealing with some sort of depowering that he had to overcome with other means for a good deal of the time. Once that series was done just past the mid 90s he entered the era people often refer to as the "modern Strange." Which causes the misconception that he was somehow different. But really it's just that he had a bunch of writers who didn't care much for the character or his history (or consistency but that is a common problem) and simply added him to a story they wanted without taking the character into consideration (they want to use a bunch of characters but they don't want to affect their preconceived story), which often meant disrespecting the character and his powers. Plus there was no parallel series for them to draw from. Now he has a series again but they kicked it off with him being quite near completely depowered. This isn't just writing away the low showings out of convenience but it's just hard to take some of them too seriously as it often came from being untrue to the character.
Oh, and Zatanna, who is one of my favorite female characters in comics... she really isn't in the same league as Strange in magic. Don't know many who would argue she is.
I just saw your post. Thanks for the input and analysis. I pretty much agree especially on your point about people using scans from different points in Strange's career. A lot of people don't know the context behind them and it can be pretty tedious correcting the misconceptions about his feats and providing the proper context.
You still haven't posted the scans requested for of the Justice League blitzing a random stranger. I'm going to go ahead and assume they don't exist. I'm also just going to address the main points of your post since most of it is just irrelevant rambling and terribly formatted.
As for the "Strange" shrugs off mystical paralysis" incident you mention-you have proof that that magician is more powerful than Zatanna, and his spells-for sure-are equal to a "freeze" spell she could cast? No? That's what I thought...
I already posted the sorcerer's power. I'll post it again since you apparently ignored it like you do with most posts. The sorcerer was powerful enough so that even clashing with him in mystic combat threatened the planet:
The Flashes have resisted this
Show me.
Zatanna can stop and restart time http://i.imgur.com/MD8s1jP.png -@tedirey posted this above, apparently you missed this or willfully ignored something once again
I already addressed this in post #62 and I'm not repeating myself. Go and read the post. I also like how you say someone ignores posts while ignoring a post. You're being ridiculous.
I showed "stopping time" doesn't even stop Supes,
No you didn't.
even if Strange managed to BFR them, Green Lantern, Zatanna http://i.imgur.com/unUqbpw.png, and Wonder Woman via her dimension teleporting lasso http://static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Wonder-Woman-teleports.jpg can bring them right back
Only Zatanna can teleport herself and others to different dimensions. In my very first post I stated this which is why I say Strange would BFR everyone except her who he'll deal with himself (as he'll know she's a capable sorcerer since he can sense sorcerous energies). You did not show Wonder Woman telelporting to another dimension she was clearly on Earth and you literally posted NO scan of Green Lantern doing it.
They don't have to "attack with full force" to defeat Strange; some of these characters can literally knock him out with their pinky once they beat him to the punch. So repeatedly stating that nonsense like a demented parrot means nothing.
LMAO
I showed you Strange's autoshields casually tanking hits from Mindless Hulk and the planet exploding and you think they can beat him with their pinky? Do you think they have planet busting+ pinky force? That's just nonsense.
Hulk being slow is exactly the point. He is too slow to get to Strange before he can react; that is not the case with the characters I mentioned. So all the excess verbiage you spewed willfully ignoring this point is irrelevant, and does not alter this point one iota.
No it's not. The point in the scan was to show how much punishment Strange's autoshields can dish out.
Wonder Woman relevant feats
Unaffected by time manipulation on the whole dimension of Skartaris
I concede that that is genuinely a great feat and could very well mean she could resist Strange's time manipulation. That said, only she would be able to resist it on her team which means it'd basically be a 1v1 against Strange and that's a fight Strange would win pretty handily.
Teleportation
Can she teleport transdimensionally? If not then it won't counter Strange from BFRing her.
Her lasso has defeated beings as powerful as demon who is supreme in his own dimension.
One of the very very very very very few beings who can survive Nekron's lightning.
Strange can simply shield himself from these attacks (feats for Strange's shields below). This is assuming Strange doesn't just BFR her right away.
Captain Marvel relevant feats
Easily broke Felix Faust' supposedly impenetrable shield with a casual punch.
Do you have evidence of the shield's durability outside of a single statement? Because Strange's shields sure does:
One of the very very very very few beings who can survive the destructive capability of a 5D Genie thunderbolt
I'm not seeing this as particularly impressive. The lightning barely destroyed the surrounding environment nor was it meant to even be an actual attack.
Remember how easily the Spectre can defeat mostly everyone in an instant just by a mere thought? Here, he can't one-shot Captain Marvel because of his power source. He actually needs to bleed his power dry before he can defeat him. That's high-end magical resistance for a non-abstract being.
I feel like this is a very big outlier and Spectre has been known to job pretty badly. I mean Strange can do one better as he's resisted a spell by the demon Zom (a being even above Eternity which would make him vastly above Spectre):
Now I don't actually believe Strange has Eternity+ durability (obviously Strange is nowhere near that level) but that's kind of my point. I would need to see more consistent showings in this regard for Marvel as I highly doubt that's the standard for his protection. Regardless, Strange can casually teleport somone as resistant to reality warping as Thanos against their will:
And Thanos of course is highly resistant to reality warping (and well above anyone on DC's team):
Captain Atom relevant feats
He is immune to magic. The Quantum Field is some sort of "Anti-magic" and his power is the inverse of magic.
Being "immune" to anything is a no-limits fallacy. In fact he has been affected by magic (and in one instance the exact same way I proposed for Strange, via BFR) by the sorcerer Dreamslayer. Here Dreamslayer one-shotted Captain Atom and others during Justice League Europe #16:
And it seems that Dreamslayer made them feel helpless during Justice League Europe#18:
He struggled a little against Wally West after this, but easily banished the JLE to Angor during Justice League Europe#17 (which is exactly what I'm proposing Strange does here):
To put this into perspective, Dreamslayer is basically just a watered-down vastly weaker version of Dormammu (in fact Dreamslayer was actually based off him), someone Strange goes toe-to-toe with and even matches on what might as well be a regular basis. Like here for example:
And Dreamslayer has been beat by a massively weaker sorcerer than Strange, Silver Sorceress. So this should really prove Strange's level of magic should deal with Atom no problem. Credit goes to the now offline @Laylah as I had a discussion with her involving this character and Captain Atom and learned these things during that time.
Defeats Nekron by absorbing his energy and brings it into the Quantum Field.
That's impressive but really doesn't change anything based on the above evidence.
Martian Manhunter relevant feats
Telepathically attacks the Spectre and reads his mind in another.
Able to affect telepathically the godwave-powered DC Hindu god Vishnu who can one-shot the universe.
Strange has resisted the Mind Gem from an Infinity Gauntlet wielding Adam Warlock:
Martian Manhunter relevant feats
Telepathically attacks the Spectre and reads his mind in another.
Second scan shows MMH being completely overwhelmed by Corrigan's Mind. Not Impressive.
Martian Manhunter relevant feats
Telepathically attacks the Spectre and reads his mind in another.
Second scan shows MMH being completely overwhelmed by Corrigan's Mind. Not Impressive.
He was overwhelmed by the sheer darkness of it all. Too dark even for him. So?
So he was overwhelmed by Corrigan's mind, that's not an Impressive or even quantifiable feat.
Martian Manhunter relevant feats
Telepathically attacks the Spectre and reads his mind in another.
Second scan shows MMH being completely overwhelmed by Corrigan's Mind. Not Impressive.
He was overwhelmed by the sheer darkness of it all. Too dark even for him. So?
So he was overwhelmed by Corrigan's mind, that's not an Impressive or even quantifiable feat.
No sane man would last if they even catch a brief glimpse of how dark the Spectre's mind is. So it's an impressive feat.
You have to prove that. Anyway, we are not just talking about normal humans here. Not Impressive because he was near Instantly overwhelmed and it's not quantifiable.
I'll get back to you on a lot of things. I got lots of things to do first. I am really enjoying this debate we're having and you're an honest Viner. See you later.
No prob and thanks for being civilized in the discussion.
I'm also just going to address the main points of your post since most of it is just irrelevant rambling and terribly formatted." Translation: "I can't dispute what TheOneWhoKnows said about J'onn TP'ing Strange and other points, so I devolve into the delusion of thinking I'm fooling anyone with the above drivel".
Got it.
No.....it means most of your post was irrelevant condescension (which ironically is exactly what you're doing here) and I actually chose to address your actual arguments....I also already addressed TP in post #106. You're so oblivious to everything that's going on it's laughable.
Besides Zatanna, Green Lantern can travel through dimensions http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8ghvOtYzUEs/VVZ5uwemrCI/AAAAAAAACkY/Zg-c3MPdjoA/s1600/Screenshot_2015-05-15-12-41-51~2.jpg
Oh boy this is rich. You're straight up lying. Green Lantern was not traveling across dimensions under his own power. He needed the help of Flodo Span, a gaseous entity with an ability to travel between dimensions inherent in his species:
He had to encase Lantern in his form and combine their power (and even then they barely managed to do it). Again, this means you either lied or you have no idea what you're talking about and are posting scans you randomly find on the internet to try and suit your needs. Regardless, this makes you extremely dishonest. This isn't the first time you lied about the context of scans you're posting. You did the EXACT same thing in that Vision vs Red Tornado thread where you posted scans of Vision being killed by She-Hulk to debunk his speed despite the fact he was friggen unconscious. Gtfo with that nonsense.
as can Wonder Woman (did you just willfully ignore things again with your "Earth" nonsense?? The second scan is her transporting people across the Chaos Void to Themyscara-more than just Earth, check it again http://i.imgur.com/sRMQT7J.jpg and here is Diana transporting herself through dimensions to the Nether Realms to rescue sister Amazon Artemis http://imgur.com/a/oDXEA
The only scan you posted of her teleporting others is when she teleproted them to Themyscira which is her home dimension. There's nothing to suggest she can teleport others anywhere else. The other instances she's only teleporting herself and it requires concentration. By the time she teleports back from being BFR'd Strange would have already dealt with Zatanna.
I "haven't posted scans of the JLA blitzing a random stranger" because your premise is nonsensical. This is a battle thread, therefore, Strange wouldn't be perceived as some poor, downtrodden little innocent bystander in the scenario---he would be perceived as a threat, and there is no reason why he wouldn't be treated as such. "Because you say so" about something still doesn't count as a legitimate reason.
Actually it's not. Just because they have to take someone down doesn't mean they're going to go all out like they're bloodlusted and morals off because it's not in-character. Lex Luthor is a threat and if the League had to take them down do you think the entire League is going to attack him like he's Darkseid? That's not even remotely in-character and what your proposing is fan fiction at that point.
When they beat him to the punch before he can react with his shields, people like Supes, Diana, J'onn, and Kara can beat him with merely striking him with their pinky (trying to willfully ignore this subject won't help you)...which renders your Hulk verbiage moot. Shields that are not erected in time won't protect him from them...
You're not comprehending the concept on auto-shields =.=' They will be up because they're ALWAYS up that's what makes them autoshields ffs.
Plus, since @tedirey has informed me current Strange apparently can't even erect shields now, the point is moot. Strange will absolutely get slaughtered now. He doesn't even have a chance of being the victor is this confrontation.
Characters in battles are expected to be at full-power unless specified otherwise in OP just ask any mod so stop whining.
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