The Justice League could actually win this.
Dr Strange vs DC Justice League
@wastelandman: I have shown on panel nanosecond, fraction of a nanosecond, attosecond, and faster than advanced alien thought speed feats that Superman has performed in post 9.
Strange has been struck and even KO'd by the likes of waaay slower people like Pile driver, Hulk, Mantis, and Luke Cage.
Besides Superman, we have other FTL or greater (Powergirl), and even faster than thought characters here-Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Flash.
But according to you, miraculously, none of them-not a single one of them-will do anything to Strange before he can move.
And apparently, while Strange is "effortlessly" getting out of Zatanna's mystical paralysis, the other JLA members-several of them who again, are capable of faster than thought speed-will just stand there with a slack jaw and dull look and not do anything during this time.
Strange "won't" be attacked with molecular manipulation, range weapons like heat and martian vision, TP assaults, etc. because-by your say so-he can for sure react faster than all of these people doing all of these things.
He will stay conscious long enough to "freeze time" even after being struck by multiple people who's lightest touch can pierce steel, who's thought can render minds, who are so fast-not to mention skilled-they can lasso Zoom while they are sightless.
Um Hmm.
Superman has "effortlessly" defied time dilation as shown in post 9, and even a total stoppage of time http://imgur.com/a/PuLOt more than once http://i.imgur.com/OaXO6T7.jpg. The Flashes have done this multiple times (I'm too tired to search for the scans right now) so that won't help Strange either---your claims to the contrary. In fact Superman's attosecond feat and Barry Allen Flash intersect-because during it, Superman catches an out of control Barry Allen Flash who was, quote "running faster than time" and warping reality---so again, "freezing time" won't do a thing to stop Strange from getting pulverized...
But in your mind, your claims and belief is superior to on panel facts.
So in short---because you "like" this character, you're just going to willfully ignore feats, facts, reason, and logic and give him the win-for sure-ridiculously disrespecting the other characters powers and abilities in the process, and smashing suspension of belief to the point of parody.
Face palm.
@tensor said
@gracetrack said:
The League wins. Come on now.
Indeed.
I see, looking above, the "come on now" asides are becoming more and more pronounced.
For good reason.
It's not a matter of if they are faster or not, the question is what are they gonna be able to do? before he figures out they're speedsters then just crushes them with no mercy. He's fought ppl that would solo these guys in 2 secs. Adam Warlock IG, Pre-Recton Beyonder, LT, Dormammu, the lost goes on and on. And now all of a sudden these guys beat Strange because they think faster, even if he was caught off guard by their speed what are they gonna do about his shields, Supes sure as heck ain't breaking them (On a consistent basis not some PIS BS). You're acting like super man or flash could solo. Please...
League should win, Dr Strange has a scary amount of power at his disposal but he doesn't usually use it to it's full degree. Plus the team has a massive speed advantage
You still have never posted a single feat for any of the League in-character blitzing a human they know nothing about.
I have shown on panel nanosecond, fraction of a nanosecond, attosecond, and faster than advanced alien thought speed feats that Superman has performed in post 9.
That's nice. It doesn't refute my argument.
Strange has been struck and even KO'd by the likes of waaay slower people like Pile driver, Hulk, Mantis, and Luke Cage.
It's really easy to just cite out-of-countext/lowballling instances. I can do the same with Superman: Being tagged by street-levelers like Deathstroke, Anguish, Aquaman, and random fodder aliens with blades. This is a hardly productive route for a discussion.
Besides Superman, we have other FTL or greater (Powergirl), and even faster than thought characters here-Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Flash.
None of these characters besides Flash operate at FTL combat speeds outside of travel.
But according to you, miraculously, none of them-not a single one of them-will do anything to Strange before he can move.
And apparently, while Strange is "effortlessly" getting out of Zatanna's mystical paralysis, the other JLA members-several of them who again, are capable of faster than thought speed-will just stand there with a slack jaw and dull look and not do anything during this time.
because-by your say so-he can for sure react faster than all of these people doing all of these things.
Never once did I say this so stop acting like I did.
Strange "won't" be attacked with molecular manipulation, range weapons like heat and martian vision, TP assaults, etc.
He will stay conscious long enough to "freeze time" even after being struck by multiple people who's lightest touch can pierce steel
Strange's autoshields have resisted strikes from a mindless Hulk without faltering in Incredible Hulk #299:
And even the friggen planet exploding in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #13:
That's your problem and problem that's shared on the vine in general, you're viewing this battle taking place in a way that's completely out of character to how they would actually fight. The League aren't sociopathic killers. They're not going to go all out on a character they no literally nothing about in-character or how much force it would take to incap Strange and if you were honest you'd know that and I guarantee you can't post an example of such.
And, again, Strange only needs a single thought to freeze time or erect a shield the league has no hopes of breaking through or wave his hand to BFR the League and it's not like Strange is slow either. Stephen, using magic can enhance his perceptions to the point where he can instantly review hundreds of spells and categorize entire disciplines of magic as seen in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #49:
And we see how fast Strange can react FTL in Strange Tales #154/155:
Now I'm not saying he's faster then all his opponents so don't try to straw man me but with all things considered, Strange's own significant reaction time couples with his precog and durability I think it's absolutely absurd to claim he wont get a spell off against a League that will be pulling their punches and not going all out against a total stranger. It'll literally take only ONE spell for Strange to really screw over the League.
Also @jrupert1 may want get in on this.
who are so fast-not to mention skilled-they can lasso Zoom while they are sightless.
Skill has literally nothing to do with this.
Superman has "effortlessly" defied time dilation as shown in post 9, and even a total stoppage of time http://imgur.com/a/PuLOt
Time was not being stopped it was being distorted. Superman was just being slowed down and he was speeding himself up to counter it and the process was so taxing he couldn't even stand:
This is a really bad showing in comparison to Strange because Strange has sped himself up to FTL levels in response to time being slowed down to the point it seemed frozen (to the point where it would take 100 years to take a single foot step) with zero effort in A+X #18:
So you actually showed just how inferior Supes is in this regard.
more than once http://i.imgur.com/OaXO6T7.jpg.
That second one Superman broke out of a physical device not resisting a magic spell. I'm not sure what that has to do with Superman being able to resist Strange's magic as Strange's magic isn't something physical you can break out of.
So in short---because you "like" this character, you're just going to willfully ignore feats, facts, reason, and logic and give him the win
Because I disagree with you it automatically means I'm completely biased towards one character? Okay....
for sure-ridiculously disrespecting the other characters powers and abilities in the process
This is hilarious coming from a guy who starts his post by ridiculously lowballing Strange's character.
and smashing suspension of belief to the point of parody.
You're just being pretentious and condescending here.
I see, looking above, the "come on now" asides are becoming more and more pronounced.
For good reason.
Appeal to popularity that I couldn't care less about, is irrelevant to this discussion, and has no bearing on what is true.
Dr. Strange needs to slowly meditate and assume the Lotus position to freeze time.
None of those things are necessary as I've shown Strange freeze time in multiple instances without meditating.
Since Gwenpool is involved, I don't care. You might as well bring in Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck.
It's canon. Doesn't matter what you think of a character lol.
No other details here to say if this is really impressive.
He froze time before someone can finish a sentence. What other details do you need....?
Dr. Strange said he can't maintain it for long. To be fair, he's also doing Astral Projection at the same time.
Not only that but he was also depowered. Freezing time is something he stated in the past he couldn't be able to do in that state but he still managed to do it anyway.
While it is impressive, it is not exactly a Time Freeze but simply devolving linear time.
Yeah, that's another way to say time has frozen lol.
I don't really know the details but it said there he stole some sort of power to do the Time freeze.
Nope.
He didn't steal any power at all. The "Stasis Spiral" is a spell Strange uses to manipulate time. He did this before in the same series like here where he fragmented himself into multiple versions of himself from the timeline which happened in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #60:
It's his own power/magic.
Hmmm. Somehow I find your Dr. Strange Time Freeze feats less impressive than this:
Effortless and fast Time Freeze by Zatanna.
I don't see how her freezing time is anywhere near as impressive as Strange especially when she's only it done it once as opposed to Strange who's done it multiple times and even in combat. Secondly, even if she attempted to freeze time, Strange has countered time manipulation from the Infinity Gauntlet in Infinity Gauntlet #6:
So even if Zatanna attempted to freeze time it would zero affect on Strange.
I'm not saying she wins the majority against Dr. Strange but Zatanna has duplicated the feats you presented here without the use of an artifact or meditating. She just needs to speak and it happens. It's as simple and as easy as that.
As I've shown, Strange doesn't need to mediate or use an artifact or even speak to do so.
@wastelandman: You have done a really good job showcasing your point. Don't think I'd need to jump in to counter or defend anything. But I will expand maybe a little and make note of some things.
Strange is quite adept at busting teams of even powerful characters as due to the nature of his abilities if they can't effectively counter certain things, numbers aren't going to matter much. I think people are writing him off because of the numbers against him (which admittedly isn't something to ignore). I'd say he could come into problems in large part due to Flash and Martian Manhunter, if they were both to blitz. With having to fend off a mental assault and such a fast physical assault at the same time, providing he doesn't take proper measures early into the fight, could throw him enough off balance. But a fight like this, stopping time is something he'd in-character be likely to do at the onset. Or bfr to the astral planes (or some other sort of trap dimensions) where he can deal with each at his leisure. And even to characters who can teleport, thinking that makes an automatic counter, his bfr is quite... effective. Mordo for example has experienced this several times, despite his own ,magic with things like teleporting, interdimensional and astral travel, etc, has needed to be plucked out by someone like Dormammu because he was trapped.
As for the deal with the stasis spiral spell being his power, this isn't even debatable since he had done it when he was limited to ONLY his personal power, which at that point had been waning after extended consistent use for some time (plus he was under the subtle affects of elemental magic at the time which messed with his powers), which would put him worse off than when he made the earlier statement of his powers being "at their lowest ebb." Yet still he was pulling that off. Which makes sense as his magic is at its strongest depending on his focus of will and desperation. Such as going from being hard pressed and on the defensive during a fight and then suddenly becoming an overwhelming force all because he was pushed to it. His willpower affects his magic (after all it is "first and foremost a mental discipline"). Sometimes he is his worst enemy in that regards (part of being human), and he often holds himself back (even his enemies make note of this), and a hit to his will makes his magic weaker. So when something like that situation where he pulled out the stasis spiral (which lead to an impressive series of feats in quick succession) it's actually explained in the comics to be why.
Also worth noting, when people draw feats from several different eras it becomes tricky with him. A lot is said of "classic Strange" but his power has often in flux for plot/character reasons. His Sorcerer Supreme series alone has him dealing with some sort of depowering that he had to overcome with other means for a good deal of the time. Once that series was done just past the mid 90s he entered the era people often refer to as the "modern Strange." Which causes the misconception that he was somehow different. But really it's just that he had a bunch of writers who didn't care much for the character or his history (or consistency but that is a common problem) and simply added him to a story they wanted without taking the character into consideration (they want to use a bunch of characters but they don't want to affect their preconceived story), which often meant disrespecting the character and his powers. Plus there was no parallel series for them to draw from. Now he has a series again but they kicked it off with him being quite near completely depowered. This isn't just writing away the low showings out of convenience but it's just hard to take some of them too seriously as it often came from being untrue to the character.
Oh, and Zatanna, who is one of my favorite female characters in comics... she really isn't in the same league as Strange in magic. Don't know many who would argue she is.
You still have never posted a single feat for any of the League in-character blitzing a human they know nothing about.
I have shown on panel nanosecond, fraction of a nanosecond, attosecond, and faster than advanced alien thought speed feats that Superman has performed in post 9.
That's nice. It doesn't refute my argument.
Strange has been struck and even KO'd by the likes of waaay slower people like Pile driver, Hulk, Mantis, and Luke Cage.
It's really easily to just cite out-of-countext/lowballling instances. I can do the same with Superman: Being tagged by street-levelers like Deathstroke, Anguish, Aquaman, and random fodder aliens with blades. This is a hardly productive route for a discussion.
Besides Superman, we have other FTL or greater (Powergirl), and even faster than thought characters here-Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Flash.
None of these characters besides Flash operate at FTL combat speeds outside of travel.
But according to you, miraculously, none of them-not a single one of them-will do anything to Strange before he can move.
And apparently, while Strange is "effortlessly" getting out of Zatanna's mystical paralysis, the other JLA members-several of them who again, are capable of faster than thought speed-will just stand there with a slack jaw and dull look and not do anything during this time.
because-by your say so-he can for sure react faster than all of these people doing all of these things.
Never once did I say this so stop acting like I did.
Strange "won't" be attacked with molecular manipulation, range weapons like heat and martian vision, TP assaults, etc.
He will stay conscious long enough to "freeze time" even after being struck by multiple people who's lightest touch can pierce steel
Strange's autoshields have resisted strikes from a mindless Hulk without faltering in Incredible Hulk #299:
And even the friggen planet exploding in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #13:
That's your problem and problem that's shared on the vine in general, you're viewing this battle taking place in a way that's completely out of character to how they would actually fight. The League aren't sociopathic killers. They're not going to go all out on a character they no literally nothing about in-character or how much force it would take to incap Strange and if you were honest you'd know that and I guarantee you can't post an example of such.
And, again, Strange only needs a single thought to freeze time or erect a shield the league has no hopes of breaking through or wave his hand to BFR the League and it's not like Strange is slow either. Stephen, using magic can enhance his perceptions to the point where he can instantly review hundreds of spells and categorize entire disciplines of magic as seen in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #49:
And we see how fast Strange can react Tales #154/155 FTL:
Now I'm not saying he's faster then all his opponents so don't try to straw man me but with all things considered, Strange's own significant reaction time couples with his precog and durability I think it's absolutely absurd to claim he wont get a spell off against a League that will be pulling their punches and not going all out against a total stranger. It'll literally take only ONE spell for Strange to really screw over the League.
Also @jrupert1 may want get in on this.
who are so fast-not to mention skilled-they can lasso Zoom while they are sightless.
Skill has literally nothing to do with this.
Superman has "effortlessly" defied time dilation as shown in post 9, and even a total stoppage of time http://imgur.com/a/PuLOt
Time was not being stopped it was being distorted. Superman was just being slowed down and he was speeding himself up to counter it and the process was so taxing he couldn't even stand:
This is a really bad showing in comparison to Strange because Strange has sped himself up to FTL levels in response to time being slowed down to the point it seemed frozen (to the point where it would take 100 years to take a single foot step) with zero effort in A+X #18:
So you actually showed just how inferior Supes is in this regard.
more than once http://i.imgur.com/OaXO6T7.jpg.
That second one Superman broke out of a physical device not resisting a magic spell. I'm not sure what that has to do with Superman being able to resist Strange's magic as Strange's magic isn't something physical you can break out of.
So in short---because you "like" this character, you're just going to willfully ignore feats, facts, reason, and logic and give him the win
Because I disagree with you it automatically means I'm completely biased towards one character? Okay....
for sure-ridiculously disrespecting the other characters powers and abilities in the process
This is hilarious coming from a guy who starts his post by ridiculously lowballing Strange's character.
and smashing suspension of belief to the point of parody.
You're just being pretentious and condescending here.
I see, looking above, the "come on now" asides are becoming more and more pronounced.
For good reason.
Appeal to popularity that I couldn't care less about, is irrelevant to this discussion, and has no bearing on what is true.
@wastelandman, outstanding post.
Most around don't realize just how powerful classic Strange was. This is the same guy that beat the In-Betweener, who casually corks black holes and shatters planets as collateral damage in some of his conflicts.
Classic Strange was a beast and I can't think of anyone comparable to him in power save maybe classic Doctor Fate.
Also, to those who claim Superman or Wally blitzes.....
Oh, dear.
First, Strange, as indicated above has auto shields. Can't help it if writer's don't always recall classic Strange had that power. This differs no more than writer's arbitrarily forgetting the Clark and Wally have super speed and have on numerous occasions, been tagged by slower characters.
Second, Wally has demonstrated he can't vibrate through magical barriers
Third, blood lust and "out of character" doesn't come into the picture. It's hard to tell with the comic vine crowd if folks genuinely don't get PIS moments or they are just claiming ignorance for the sake of a convenient argument.
At any rate, Doctor Strange wins this fight, period. You want to challenge Strange? Throw someone like Odin at the guy.
@shadow411: @wastelandman: Shadow411, I went through what "they could do" to Strange several times over now. Your continuing to claim that characters with FTL and better combat speed "can't" get to Strange before his auto shields remains ridiculous, wishful thinking. Luke Cage, Mantis, Piledriver and many more can do it, but "beat Wally and Barry Flashes, and Professor Zoom to the punch" Superman can't, as well as the Flash himself?
Poster, PLEASE.
"Even if he was caught off guard by their speed"---you can stop right there. Once he is "caught off guard", that's all she wrote. He'll be taken out, by any number of ways. Period.
And even if Strange miraculously got his shields up---Superman and Flash can vibrate through them and take him out before he realized it happened.
Wastelandman, your responses, when you strip away all the superfluous verbiage, is you saying "Nuh Uh!" to demonstrable evidence that Strange will be wiped out by any number of Leaguers before he can blink. Doesn't change the facts one iota.
The difference in Superman and Strange being tagged is Superman is legitimately too fast for any of the characters you mentioned to touch him. Those instances are PIS. Strange, despite his great magical power is human, with human level reflexes. Therefore, it is quite legit for Cage and company to tag him---which means that Superman and crew will really have no problem KOing him before he even realizes it happened.
All the character I mentioned are FTL and greater at combat speed---your claims and beliefs do not override facts (Your saying "Nuh Uh" to facts, once again, is not a rebuttal). In the scan I showed of Superman moving faster than advanced alien thought, Flash and J'onn also do this (Wonder Woman was being portayed by Diana's mom at the time, and needed Flash's speed boost to hang with them) so as usual, you're absolutely wrong.
"Never once did I say this so stop acting like I did" ---in order for Strange to "win", the rest would have to stand still and bizarrely not use their FTL and better speed to attack him while he "effortlessly" escaped mystic paralysis, so that is exactly what you said. Do you really not get that? SMH.
Strange's auto shields won't do him any good when he is struck multiple times before they protect him. Putting up a scan of the shields beating a slow brick like the Hulk to the punch does nothing to disprove that attosecond characters like Supes and crew will get to him (your claims that the likes of a Superman who can out pace the Flashes, Professor Zoom and FTL duos simultaneously, a Wonder Woman that has the combat speed and skill to lasso Zoom while sightless, and Barry or Wally West Flashes themselves "can't" out move Strange remains as ludicrous as ever).
"The 'Vine in general" doesn't have a problem by their stating the JLA members will easily get to Strange---evidence leaves us no choice to state that. The "problem" is with your fan, not fact based "logic" and "reason". The JLA has demonstrated they don't have to take opponents out in a "psychopathic killers" style to stop them. All of them-particularly the ultimate boy scout Superman-have shown countless times they know how to incapacitate or KO an opponent without behaving like "psychopathic killers". So speaking of using "strawman arguments"---please cut the crap. Strange can be rendered helpless without terminating him.
Once again, in order for Strange to "win" he has to move faster than every single one of his opponents before they get to him---so you are saying he's faster than all of them.
Skill does have something to do with this. Do you not realize how much skill has to be the equal of speed in order for a person to lasso someone as fast as Zoom at all, when they can see, much less when they are sightless??? Someone that can do an incredible speed and skill feat like that is not going to have a problem out moving someone with Strange's human level reflexes, which are FAAAR below Zoom
Re writing scans to fit your bias won't help you. The device that Superman resisted wasn't a one shot time freeze which Superman could have easily, quickly sped through, it was continuously stopping time. Superman sped up enough to eventually reach the villain and knock the device from his hand, which is a lot harder to do than what Strange did, and a lot more impressive. The second incident was a chronal time freeze, not merely a "physical device". You didn't mention a "magic spell", you claimed Strange would "freeze time", and those incidents show "freezing time" does not work on Superman. His incredible "Catch An Out Of Control Barry Allen Flash Moving Faster Than Time" feat proves that even more.
Your disagreeing with me doesn't prove your bias, your behavior of willfully ignoring feats, facts, logic, and reason does. Truthfully, factually stating Superman and crew can use their great speed to reach Strange before he can react is not "disrespecting him", anymore than saying they are stronger than him physically is. Just because the truth upsets you is not "disrespecting" Strange; likewise, calling you out on your behavior is not being "pretentious" and "condescending". If exposing your fan based behavior upsets you, that's regrettable, but not my responsibility. Don't like being called out for the behavior---stop the behavior.
Majorities are indeed not always right---but in this particular case we are. Notice how-unlike you-many of us state that if Strange has prep it might be a different story, but you are ridiculously asserting Strange will win for sure in a random encounter, with no idea of the versatile powers he would be facing. Patently ridiculous.
It still remains:
@tensor said
@gracetrack said:
The League wins. Come on now.
Indeed.
JUSTICE LEAGUE WINS.
@tedirey, with logic based users, what I stated in my last post would be a thread ender. But to fan based people, their "liking" a character better, in their minds, is equal, if not superior, to demonstrable, see-with-one's-own-eyes-facts.
Bless their hearts.
Good. GRIEF.
.
@shadow411: @wastelandman: Shadow411, I went through what "they could do" to Strange several times over now. Your continuing to claim that characters with FTL and better combat speed "can't" get to Strange before his auto shields remains ridiculous,
No, not really. That's the whole point of "auto shields". They appear when an object is about to strike. Wally and Superman having superior speed is irrelevant.
Hence, "auto shields".
They operate much the same way Hal Jordan's auto shields protected him against a nuke.
Instantly.
Put another way, Strange's auto shields are not contingent on human thought. Which is why they operated just fine against Deathurge when Strange's back was turned to him.
Get it?
wishful thinking. Luke Cage, Mantis, Piledriver and many more can do it, but "beat Wally and Barry Flashes, and Professor Zoom to the punch" Superman can't, as well as the Flash himself?
Again, your argument relies on writer ignorance or plot, albeit, the writer forgot, or otherwise failed, to employ a power Strange has demonstrated several times before.
I could just as easily point to times Wally and Superman have been tagged by the likes of Girder and Titus, folks with zero super speed, yeah?
Poster, PLEASE.
No, you please.
Your bias is disturbing.
You consistently ignore other posters' arguments in favor of pushing your own agenda, and in doing so, ignore battle forum rules that clearly indicate each combatant is doing their best....or you just ignore the other character's set of demonstrated powers altogether.
You post walls of text that could normally be summarized in a few sentences.
Your argument are utterly horrific.
"Even if he was caught off guard by their speed"---you can stop right there. Once he is "caught off guard", that's all she wrote. He'll be taken out, by any number of ways. Period.
Auto shields.
Let it sink in.
Auto shields. Auto shields. Think about it. Let it marinate.
And even if Strange miraculously got his shields up---
Which he will, because no conscious thought is required on his part for them to "be up".....
Superman and Flash can vibrate through them and take him out before he realized it happened.
And, wrong again.
So, first, I assume you are aware Clark has no more defense against magical attacks....or shields....than the average person out there right?
How will actually vibrate through force fields of magical origin?
And I already said, Wally can't vibrate through bonds of magical origins
We don't consider battle forums fights as to how the writers write a comic book. We evaluate them, doing their best to win the fight.
In battle forums, characters won't "forget" how to use their powers.
For everybody who's talking about speed blitz, Strange has auto shields, and he can amp his speed to enormous levels as well.
What part of "Auto shields" have you not understood?? They're all-the-time meaning there is no hitting him even if you catch him off-guard, there is still no getting through his defenses.
You say Strange got hit by street lvl'ers, therefore FTL characters slaughter him. But you don't mention the thousands of times each of those "FTL" characters got tagged by street lvl'ers themselves. Also, you say well Strange wouldn't go straight to BFR'ing them etc. but the JL would go straight to fighting FTL, so JL is bloodlusted and Strange is not, you refuse to put them in the same mindset, if you want a bloodlusted fight, Strange ends them in less than a second. If you want an IC fight, no one on JL will attack a regular human at FTL, you are letting JL fight BL but not Strabge. You are so biased it hurts!!
All you are is another DC fanboy crying because your JL team gets absolutely wrecked by a Marvel powerhouse!! Btw what really lets everyone know you're arguing on a biased lvl is when you are saying the JL will fight with full force, not even knowing anything about the guy. And you then turn around and say Strange will just sit there and let it happen.
I would hope that not even you would argue if this was a bloodlusted fight, JL gets wrecked in no time flat. However this is an In-Character fight and no one in JL goes FTL against an opponent they know nothing about, also, it is 100% in Stranges character to BFR when he's outnumbered.
If only you weren't biased you may have actually swayed some ppl.
Dr Strange has this handily. The team has great speed and power. No question there. Yet they cannot take down the guy who can take out some of the most powerful cosmic forces in the universe.
Speed blitz is IRRELEVANT!!! Auto shields is instantaneous, hence auto shields. And those shields can take planet plus striking power. Also wally can't get through those shields in anyway so that whole argument is again IRRELEVANT!!??
TP, we all know Jonn has some powerful TP but Stephen has major TP protection, I don't see Jonns TP breaking strangers magical protection and his resistance NOT happening.
Wonder woman's fighting skills and weapons are virtually useless against Stephens defenses.
Hal's constructs will likewise be near useless against this level of magic.
Team does NOT beat Stephen Strange period, no way they can.
Ever heard of PIS?? Prime example right there!!
He didn't even notice one time Hulk tried to hit him and the shields protected him, also protected him against deathurge with him doing nothing. So yes, normally they work. PIS likes to ruin everything, it could just as easily be said that every time you say superman is SoL+ you are contradicted by the multiple times he's hit by street lvl'ers. If he's really so fast to the point time stops, how can he be hit by Deathstroke??
This is ridiculous!! That I'm having to explain PIS
I asked you to post scans of any of the JL blitzing at full force a character they know nothing about and again you ignore it. Probably because it doesn't exist.
Wastelandman, your responses, when you strip away all the superfluous verbiage, is you saying "Nuh Uh!" to demonstrable evidence that Strange will be wiped out by any number of Leaguers before he can blink. Doesn't change the facts one iota.
..........I really want you to take a step back and realize just how incredibly ironic this statement is.
In my response I quoted every point you made separately and responded to each of them. I actually used feats and evidence to back up my arguments. Meanwhile, YOUR response here is just a massive wall of text filled with claims and literally zero scans. You're not refuting any of my points or explaining why they're not valid and basically repeating "I'm right" over and over again. You're playing make believe that you're actually giving cogent arguments and I'm just ignoring everything you say when I'm obviously not and am addressing each of your points.
The difference in Superman and Strange being tagged is Superman is legitimately too fast for any of the characters you mentioned to touch him. Those instances are PIS.
So those instances are PIS but not Strange's because it's not convenient for your argument?
Strange, despite his great magical power is human, with human level reflexes. Therefore, it is quite legit for Cage and company to tag him---which means that Superman and crew will really have no problem KOing him before he even realizes it happened.
This is really ridiculous. I just posted feats of Strange reacting and processing things infinitely faster than what is possible for a human. You're complaining about ignoring evidence but you literally did just that here. I posted scans of Strange analyzing entire disciplines and hundreds of spells in an instant and outracing a spell that travels FTL in post #61. If you're going to claim Strange is no faster than a human then debunk the scans I posted that clearly shows him obviously showing otherwise instead of just making a claim with nothing to back it up. So actually address this point and don't ignore it.
"Never once did I say this so stop acting like I did" ---in order for Strange to "win", the rest would have to stand still
No....for Strange to win he just needs to cast a single spell. They can attack him but they're not bloodlusted and are not going to attack with full force. Strange's autoshields and his own reaction will be enough for him to stop time or wave them away to another dimension.
and bizarrely not use their FTL and better speed to attack him
None of the characters on your team can fight at FTL speeds except Flash. Reaction =/= combat speed. I already said this and you completely ignored this point......like with most of my points.
while he "effortlessly" escaped mystic paralysis, so that is exactly what you said. Do you really not get that? SMH.
First of all he doesn't need to "escape" the paralysis. In the scan I posted it literally had no effect on him. He just waited for the sorcerer to leave the room before he moved so he can have the advantage of surprise. Secondly, you're assuming Zatanna even gets that spell off yet what reaction feats does she even have to suggest she can cast a spell faster than Strange? Strange who can cast entire litanies of spells at once:
Guarantee Zatanna isn't as speedy a spellcaster as Strange is.
Strange's auto shields won't do him any good when he is struck multiple times before they protect him.
His autoshield work automatically........that's why they're referred to as autoshields =.='
Putting up a scan of the shields beating a slow brick like the Hulk to the punch does nothing to disprove that attosecond characters like Supes and crew will get to him (your claims that the likes of a Superman who can out pace the Flashes, Professor Zoom and FTL duos simultaneously, a Wonder Woman that has the combat speed and skill to lasso Zoom while sightless, and Barry or Wally West Flashes themselves "can't" out move Strange remains as ludicrous as ever).
For one, Hulk being "slow" is besides the point. Hulk is powerhouse and Strange's shields easily protected them from his blows. This was also a Mindless Hulk which means he's completely bloodlusted as opposed to any of the League who are going to be massively pulling their punches and not going all out against an opponent they know literally nothing about.
You also completely ignored Strange surviving a planet exploding.
"The 'Vine in general" doesn't have a problem by their stating the JLA members will easily get to Strange
That isn't what I said and no the Vine in general does not agree with you lol.
evidence leaves us no choice to state that. The "problem" is with your fan, not fact based "logic" and "reason". The JLA has demonstrated they don't have to take opponents out in a "psychopathic killers" style to stop them. All of them-particularly the ultimate boy scout Superman-have shown countless times they know how to incapacitate or KO an opponent without behaving like "psychopathic killers". So speaking of using "strawman arguments"---please cut the crap. Strange can be rendered helpless without terminating him.
For the millionth time: they know nothing about Strange. They don't know how much force would be sufficient to incapacitate him. They're going to be holding back force and Strange's shields would be more than sufficient to protect him long enough to cast a single spell.
Re writing scans to fit your bias won't help you. The device that Superman resisted wasn't a one shot time freeze which Superman could have easily, quickly sped through, it was continuously stopping time. Superman sped up enough to eventually reach the villain and knock the device from his hand, which is a lot harder to do than what Strange did, and a lot more impressive.
I'm not "re-writing" scans I'm literally telling you what happened lol. Nowhere is it stated that time was stopped it was slowed to the point where it seemed time is frozen hence why Superman had to speed himself up. You can't counter time freezing by speeding yourself up that doesn't make any sense. What's more is even if what he did was resist time freezing (which he didn't) he was absolutely exhausted and couldn't even stand immediately afterward so what's the point?
The second incident was a chronal time freeze, not merely a "physical device". You didn't mention a "magic spell", you claimed Strange would "freeze time", and those incidents show "freezing time" does not work on Superman. His incredible "Catch An Out Of Control Barry Allen Flash Moving Faster Than Time" feat proves that even more.
Resisting a device that manipulates time is not the same as resisting a spell especially when Superman is vulnerable to magic. If you have a scan that Superman resisting a magical time freeze then you can't definitely say he can resist time. If even if could only HE would be immune not his teammates and it'd be Strange vs Superman and Strange would beat Superman in a 1v1 handily.
Your disagreeing with me doesn't prove your bias, your behavior of willfully ignoring feats, facts, logic, and reason does. Truthfully, factually stating Superman and crew can use their great speed to reach Strange before he can react is not "disrespecting him", anymore than saying they are stronger than him physically is. Just because the truth upsets you is not "disrespecting" Strange; likewise, calling you out on your behavior is not being "pretentious" and "condescending". If exposing your fan based behavior upsets you, that's regrettable, but not my responsibility. Don't like being called out for the behavior---stop the behavior.
Majorities are indeed not always right---but in this particular case we are. Notice how-unlike you-many of us state that if Strange has prep it might be a different story, but you are ridiculously asserting Strange will win for sure in a random encounter, with no idea of the versatile powers he would be facing. Patently ridiculous.
This is just a lot of condescension with no real arguments or substance something that makes up most of your posts.
Last time I read Dr. Strange lose in a fight is against Magik
Strange was depowered and she was amped.
Who else has he lost to? I know there's Spiderman even in his classic days, but who else?
That was pure PIS.
Isn't Current Strange nowhere near his "normal" levels?
Yeah he's massively depowered currently. But it's assumed characters are at full-power in battles.
I hate PIS yeah. It makes characters in battle threads a lot harder to gauge than it actually is.
So which is more recent? The most recent should supersede the showings from the past.
Which is more recent out of the two you referenced? The one where magik beat him in Limbo. But again Strange was depowered and she was amped because of her plot powers in Limbo.
Sorry, I'm talking about what's the most recent shield instance.
It was probably in his most recent series before he got depowered. It was here in Doctor Strange Vol. 4 #6:
He get's punched hard enough to be sent flying and flatten the side of a car but he just shrugs it off. The person who punched him was also strong enough to punch his way through several feet of compressed metal.
Does he still have auto-shields or people can tag him now?
Currently I don't think Strange has his autoshields right now.
I know Zatanna has two universal feats under her own power without the aid of artifacts and I heard he affected and trapped the Spectre once which I believe is beyond Dr. Strange's capability. So I think this alone will keep him occupied and the rest of the league will take care of the rest.
I
What are these feats? I think I know what you're referring to and if it is it really isn't anything that puts her on that level.
1. I see. The thread is not specific enough. There should be 2 versions of Dr. Strange:
- Classic - where he still has his auto-shields and insane amount of feats and
- Current - depowered and without auto-shields but still formidable
Classic Strange is the same as modern Strange. It's only very recently that he became depowered as much as he did because most of the magic in the universe had died off. If you want to make generalized distinctions of his power levels this would be more accurate:
- Depowered/Pre-Sorcerer Supreme
- Sorcerer Supreme
- Post-Last Days of Magic (the current version of Strange)
Her fight with Zor who is said to be omnipotent and with the fabric of the universe at stake and during the Seven Soldiers of Victory by Grant Morrison where she awakened the universe to summon the Soldiers.
I don't take statements of characters being "omnipotent" seriously. Multiple character who aren't anywhere close to omnipotent have said this like Odin and even some of Strange's enemies like Shuma-Gorath's Lieutenant. I also don't know what "awakening" the universe puts her above Strange. You'd really need to post actual scans of feats for Zatanna so I can view them myself.
So she took down someone's own realm? I don't think that means she's universal. Strange has done the same with others before in Strange Tales #136:
@wastelandman: Isn't Strange supposed to be like a regular guy in a crazy set of circumstances? Why is he talking like that? Lol.
Just got back from watching some thrilling NBA playoff games, so now---
@wastelandman: @shadow411: Shadow411, what part of "Faster than FTL/faster than thought/attosecond speed don't you understand? Strange has been hit uncountable times by uncountable foes. Saying he "won't" be in this situation by multiple characters this fast is outlandishly ridiculous.
I addressed the reasons why those FTL characters have been touched in my last post, so you have confirmed that your fan not fact based daze results in you not reading anything that doesn't say "Dr. Strange RUUULLLZZZ!" clearly. Typical. As further proof that you are so invested in being a Believe What you Want to Believe user to the point that your reading comprehension suffers, you claim that I said "Strange wouldn't go straight to BFR'ing them etc." I defy you to show me where I typed that. I stated he won't get the chance to do that, because he has been taken out first.
And the League doesn't have to be "bloodlusted" to use their powers to the best of their abilities. That is your claim. And I see you have devolved into the "fanboy" claim because I disagree that Strange can solo this team---also typical of your kind. No one is "crying" but you; your projection and hypocrisy is painful to the senses.
Strange will not "sit there and let it (his defeat) happen---he has no choice due to him being completely and thoroughly outclassed in combat speed, and the diversity of the powers he faces. To win, he will, among many attacks, have to miraculously react faster than multiple FTL'ers, people with lethal range weapons that can be implemented at faster than human speed, near instantaneous mega powerful magic attacks ("potS") and a surprise TP assault by an uber powerful telepath-all of these varied and versatile attacks of which he would have no idea coming, and what he needed to defend himself when, where, and how.
For you to behave in the manner you have above with a straight face-and then turn around and talk about "bias"-is startlingly atrocious.
If hypocrisy was bricks-you'd be a tenement.
Since you are not a mind reader, you have no idea how many "ppl" I "swayed". But since it appears, looking through the thread that most believe The JLA wins, that point is moot.
And speaking of moot---
@blackstaroblivion I see that you tagged me, but whatever you wrote I didn't read it; your behavior in that previous thread-showing you are incapable of debating in a rational, civil manner-renders whatever you have to say irrelevant.
Wastemanland, I've already posted more than enough scans to prove my point. What I don't believe in is exhausting myself posting scans to a person who is simply going to willfully ignore it or rewrite it to suit their bias. if a person at least acknowledges a bare minimum amount of obvious things, I'll continue indefinitely---but you have willfully ignored and/or dismissed everything. If you change, I may re consider.
I don't get into senseless, endless "Uh Huh!" Nuh Uh!" back and forth silliness in regard to "Water is wet/the sky is blue" subjects. You are free to Believe What You Want To Believe; meanwhile, the fact that in general Supes, Flash, et. al. are faster in every way than Strange is simply a fact. I showed the speed feats of Supes alone already; Flash is even faster and will get to Strange before he can react. I will no more exhaust myself "proving" this than I would if I say "2+2= 4" with endless groupings of items gathered together to prove a beyond obvious point.
Claiming that Strange-who at best, does not use his speed as a first option will out react characters who use their speed better and much more often (including a character who's only power is super speed and is the Speed Force using master of speed!!!) is simply, patently, fan induced frenzied preposterous.
Simply because you claim ""for Strange to win he just needs to cast a single spell" doesn't make it so. I showed "stopping time" doesn't even stop Supes, The Flashes have resisted this, Zatanna can stop and restart time http://i.imgur.com/MD8s1jP.png -@tedirey posted this above, apparently you missed this or willfully ignored something once again-even if Strange miraculously got his shields up in time that wouldn't protect him from a surprise TP assault from master TP J'onn that he would have no idea was coming and would KO him-I dare you to say he would for sure resist such an attack, by surprise, from one of the most powerful telepaths around-and even if Strange managed to BFR them, Green Lantern, Zatanna http://i.imgur.com/unUqbpw.png, and Wonder Woman via her dimension teleporting lasso http://static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Wonder-Woman-teleports.jpg can bring them right back. They don't have to "attack with full force" to defeat Strange; some of these characters can literally knock him out with their pinky once they beat him to the punch. So repeatedly stating that nonsense like a demented parrot means nothing.
Once again, the characters do have FTL combat speed. You can claim differently for the next 1,000 pages, and you will still be just as abysmally incorrect.
As for the "Strange" shrugs off mystical paralysis" incident you mention-you have proof that that magician is more powerful than Zatanna, and his spells-for sure-are equal to a "freeze" spell she could cast? No? That's what I thought...As for "casting a spell as fast as Strange" she instantly froze the powerful mystic entity Brother Night in place http://i.imgur.com/VqdG1id.png as well as the team busting Despero https://pp.vk.me/c624617/v624617056/886a/F5gswSkPc8s.jpg and https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111219076/5508454-6352265783-28869.jpg so I doubt Strange can cast a spell SOOOOOO much faster than that-instantly-that Zatanna has "no" chance to "cast a spell as fast as Strange".
Snicker.
Hulk being slow is exactly the point. He is too slow to get to Strange before he can react; that is not the case with the characters I mentioned. So all the excess verbiage you spewed willfully ignoring this point is irrelevant, and does not alter this point one iota.
"That's not what you said"? Ummm---"That's your problem and problem that's shared on the vine in general, you're viewing this battle taking place in a way that's completely out of character to how they would actually fight. The League aren't sociopathic killers." You apparently can't remember what you write from one post to the next. Oh, well...as I said, the JLA does not, as you claimed, have to behave like "psychocapthic killers" to use their powers to the fullest and render Strange unconscious. Saying "Nuh Uh!" over and over again doesn't change this.
For the zillionth time---The JLA doesn't have to use lethal force to KO Strange. The amount of humans they have defeated with a minimum of force is incalculable; they have many years of experience in taking out even fodder with no permanent damage done to them. These characters are professionals who can walk and chew gum at the same time; they can "hold back" using "full force" and use their powers to the best of their abilities to reach Strange at the same time.
Once again you are playing the "dilute/deny/dismiss" games with demonstrable feats, and is why I don't feel like exhausting myself too much with users like you who simply willfully ignore things to get a result they want. Superman overcame a weapon that not in a one shot, but was continuously slowing, and ultimately stopping time in one instance, and almost immediately breaking free of a chronal freeze in the other. So you are certainly entitled to Believe What You Want to Believe all you wish---in the meantime those examples, plus the others I displayed prove "freezing time" won't work on Supes. And the claim that "only" Superman would be free of it is wrong, since Flash has sped past "time freezes", and as I showed earlier how effective Zatanna is in that area as well.
So-getting painfully redundant to have to keep saying-you are wrong once again.
Pointing these things out is-once again-not being "condescending"---you take it that way because you keep being showed up, and you don't like that. Again, not my responsibility.
Well, despite your latest unfounded, counter logical, fact free diatribe, it still remains:
The League wins.
Come on now.
FTL=Faster Than Light. Not Faster Than Thought.
Actually couldn't care less about Strange's character, but there's no way in heck JL is touching him. I'm just having a hard time figuring out what you're not understanding, "THEY LITERALLY CAN'T TOUCH THE GUY", his shields are made of MAGIC, Flash nor Superman (The two you keep referencing to as the ones who will outrun the shields) can outrun something that is already there and up!! MM is wasting his time if he's trying to put Strange under mind control, you know his "Auto-shields" protect against non-physical attacks as well right? Their speed is irrelevant in this battle, they can be infinitely FTL, but won't make a difference since Strange doesn't even have to think for these shields to activate, they already are, this isn't like Gaara's sand (Naruto), Strange's shield doesn't move at a certain speed, it's always there it doesn't have to move!!
So let me get this straight, you're saying Superman/Flash could solo Strange and I'm being a delusional fanboy by telling you you're wrong?? Lmfao nice try bro, but na. Don't think anyone would believe you on that, and I haven't low-balled JL the first time, I just said they'd be BFR'ed almost instantly and dealt with at Strange's leisure since that is 100% IC for him when he's outnumbered.
I did however call you the fanboy because It is not IC for Supes or flash to FTL blitz someone they don't even know, matter of fact I don't even remember reading them ever doing that to a normal human they don't know. But you insist that is how the fight would go and Strange wouldn't BFR them and that is him IC, not even bloodlusted, yet you act like he wouldn't even fight as hard as he does IC. And you keep saying his "Auto-Shields would be too slow to stop Flash/Supes, when the word Auto means they automatically activate and protect him whether he can follow the attack or not. So no, they don't touch him and as soon as he sees how powerful they are, he gets serious and the fight ends very very shortly after that.
I can tell you are riled up, sorry that wasn't my intention.
@shadow411: I honestly couldn't make out a lot of what you were trying to say (calm down and take your time when you post; this is a meaningless discussion about fictional fights between fictional characters, it's not that deep). What I WAS able to make out changes nothing. Your WORDS about auto shields do nothing to alter all the see-with-ones's-own-eyes images of Strange being struck and even KO'd by multiple people over multiple years who are FAAAR slower than the characters in this thread.
So do us both a favor and stop wasting my time; you're doing nothing but exhausting yourself and amusing me.
And claiming that J'onn-a being that was able to psionically keep his entire Martian race from entering the afterlife and enter the mind of The Spectre "wouldn't" be able to TP Strange-ESPECIALLY with a surprise attack-is just BEYOND ridiculous, and willfully ignoring facts (you think Strange's "shields" are more difficult to get by then the freaking SPECTRE?) At the risk of repeating myself:
Poster, PLEASE.
I couldn't really make out what you were saying until your last paragraph, talking about "auto". Teleportation in many cases is "auto". Thinking is "auto". Yet Supes and Flash have moved faster than both-many times-and therefore the so-called "auto" shields-which were not effective against Hulk (on more than one occasion), Black Panther, Piledriver, Mantis, Spider-Man, Mordu, and many, MANY others-will be no different for them.
Your CLAIMS don't alter the FACT that-when Strange is in battle with the characters displayed in this OP:
JUSTICE LEAGUE WINS.
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