Dr. Manhattan vs. Voldemort

Battle takes place in Diagon Alley. Random encounter, but Voldemort is aware of Dr Manhattan's abilities. Voldemort has the Elder Wand. Battle is to the death. No BFR.

*maniacal giggles echo throughout this vicious, mercilessly, downright cruel spite thread*

*maniacal giggles echo throughout this vicious, mercilessly, downright cruel spite thread*

*maniacal giggles echo throughout this vicious, mercilessly, downright cruel spite thread*

How is it spite? If the killing curse can kill Manhattan then it seems pretty even. Whoever connects first will most likely win

It wouldn't kill Manhattan. He isn't even human. He'd tilt his head and frown impercetibly, then vaporize Voldemort.

@Joygirl said:

It wouldn't kill Manhattan. He isn't even human. He'd tilt his head and frown impercetibly, then vaporize Voldemort.

Technically, unless Manhattan is aware of and able to destroy the various Horcruxes, that would not kill Voldemort.

As well, no proof that the killing curse wouldn't kill Manhattan, unless it removes his intrinsic field for the kill (that is the only thing he is ever shown coming back from -- no proof of anything else otherwise). If the Horcruxes aren't taken into consideration, I would say whoever is faster on the draw takes the win. Pretty even chances.

Seeing as Manhattan has full knowledge of absolutely everything, he could vaporize every horcrux, plus Voldemort, in the same instant right before he said the spell.

Manhattan didn't know his buddy was planning on nuking a city. =p

Manhattan stomps so hard it's not even funny.

Does Manhattan have a soul? Like, does he still have a human soul? I don't know much about him. Still... it's hard to see Voldemort winning here

The only reason he didn't is because Alan Moore is a self-contradicting hack. His power set is basically omnipotence/omniscience.

Fair, lol

@Wyldsong said:

As well, no proof that the killing curse wouldn't kill Manhattan, unless it removes his intrinsic field for the kill (that is the only thing he is ever shown coming back from -- no proof of anything else otherwise). If the Horcruxes aren't taken into consideration, I would say whoever is faster on the draw takes the win. Pretty even chances.

I keep seeing you posting this in all the Dr. Manhattan threads; you seem to be missing the point concerning Manhattan reforming himself.

Removing his intrinsic field causes disintegration. While you keep stating that he only came back from having his intrinsic field removed, you're ignoring/moving the focus from the outcome.

Dr. Manhattan came back from being killed on an extensive scale. His heart, his major organs, all the vital parts of the body that keep a person alive were disintegrated. Yet, he was able to keep his consciousness intact and manipulate his atoms to put himself back together.

That means that his consciousness can stay alive despite the failings of his major organs - despite them not existing, in molecular pieces - so why would any other method of kill work on him? Stabbing someone in the head shuts down their brain which shuts down their consciousness. When your brain is dead, you are dead. And all the different manners of dying lead to that brain death. If all the different kill paths lead to that same destination of brain death, the path taken doesn't matter. What is being decapitated going to do to Dr. Manhattan, when hes shown his consciousness can survive with his brain dead(because his brain was also dead when it was disintegrated)? What is being stabbed in the heart going to do to him when he's shown his consciousness can survive with his heart not functioning(because, when it was disintegrated, it also was not functioning)?

It shouldn't matter whether he needs to put his body back from the subatomic pieces, or put it back from having a head and major organs sliced up....he has sufficient control over his atoms that he can change size, teleport, make copies of himself, ect. Whether or not his body is in subatomic pieces, or in larger chunks, he should theoretically be able to put himself back together.

Analogy: That's like saying that a person who tanks a nuclear explosion cannot survive being burned by boiling water...The former causes the same damage of the latter, but 100 times more so and to a more intense degree. It's like saying someone who's shown to tank being stabbed in the heart with a sword needs to also demonstrate he can also survive a papercut.

Manhattan didn't know his buddy was planning on nuking a city. =p

The only reason he didn't is because Alan Moore is a self-contradicting hack. His power set is basically omnipotence/omniscience.

Voldemort gives Manhattan an awkward hug.

This is going to happen to Voldemort.

Nobody from the Harry Potter Universe is in the same league as Manhattan .

@Tony_Shark said:

Does Manhattan have a soul? Like, does he still have a human soul? I don't know much about him. Still... it's hard to see Voldemort winning here

I have never seen any evidence about the existence of souls in watchman universe.

Manhattan stomps

@drgnx said:

Manhattan didn't know his buddy was planning on nuking a city. =p

Thats because his buddy used tachyons to obscure his vision of the future

@Jezer said:

@Wyldsong said:

As well, no proof that the killing curse wouldn't kill Manhattan, unless it removes his intrinsic field for the kill (that is the only thing he is ever shown coming back from -- no proof of anything else otherwise). If the Horcruxes aren't taken into consideration, I would say whoever is faster on the draw takes the win. Pretty even chances.

I keep seeing you posting this in all the Dr. Manhattan threads; you seem to be missing the point concerning Manhattan reforming himself.

Removing his intrinsic field causes disintegration. While you keep stating that he only came back from having his intrinsic field removed, you're ignoring/moving the focus from the outcome.

Dr. Manhattan came back from being killed on an extensive scale. His heart, his major organs, all the vital parts of the body that keep a person alive were disintegrated. Yet, he was able to keep his consciousness intact and manipulate his atoms to put himself back together.

That means that his consciousness can stay alive despite the failings of his major organs - despite them not existing, in molecular pieces - so why would any other method of kill work on him? Stabbing someone in the head shuts down their brain which shuts down their consciousness. When your brain is dead, you are dead. And all the different manners of dying lead to that brain death. If all the different kill paths lead to that same destination of brain death, the path taken doesn't matter. What is being decapitated going to do to Dr. Manhattan, when hes shown his consciousness can survive with his brain dead(because his brain was also dead when it was disintegrated)? What is being stabbed in the heart going to do to him when he's shown his consciousness can survive with his heart not functioning(because, when it was disintegrated, it also was not functioning)?

It shouldn't matter whether he needs to put his body back from the subatomic pieces, or put it back from having a head and major organs sliced up....he has sufficient control over his atoms that he can change size, teleport, make copies of himself, ect. Whether or not his body is in subatomic pieces, or in larger chunks, he should theoretically be able to put himself back together.

Analogy: That's like saying that a person who tanks a nuclear explosion cannot survive being burned by boiling water...The former causes the same damage of the latter, but 100 times more so and to a more intense degree. It's like saying someone who's shown to tank being stabbed in the heart with a sword needs to also demonstrate he can also survive a papercut.

Jezer, I post this because there is no clear cut definition of an intrinsic field, and just what exactly happens when it is removed. This is a Watchmen U concept, and all we know is that it is some theoretical field that holds stuff together. For all that we know, this ability is only truly activated when this field is removed. Your theory doesn't take into account the unexplained and unknown aspects of Manhattan, and just what truly allowed his consciousness to be freed. If the removal of the intrinsic field of the Watchmen U allowed his consciousness to be freed, awakening some unknown ability or showing a force of will not possessed by others or even divine intervention of a sort, then who is to say that his consciousness won't be trapped in a dying body, imprisoned by the selfsame intrinsic field when subjected to massive trauma and so on?

It's definitely not the same as saying that someone who can tank being stabbed needs to demonstrate they can survive being cut and so on. You are talking aspects of physical trauma and damage. I am talking about an accident that removed a property from Manhattan (his intrinsic field) versus physical trauma and other forms of attacks that aren't shown to remove the same physical property Manhattan had removed.

Until more intel is brought to the table, there is just no proof otherwise. It's a purely speculative argument otherwise, and I find it silly (no offense meant to you and not an attack here, just a general statement) to proclaim his ability to come back from almost any form of attack, when that attack doesn't involve removing his intrinsic field. Hopefully the new Watchmen stuff coming this year will elaborate more on Manhattan and his abilities, and if it proves me wrong, great. I don't mind, because there will be actual proof to use instead of speculation, conjecture, and opinion.

@Wyldsong said:

@Jezer said:

@Wyldsong said:

As well, no proof that the killing curse wouldn't kill Manhattan, unless it removes his intrinsic field for the kill (that is the only thing he is ever shown coming back from -- no proof of anything else otherwise). If the Horcruxes aren't taken into consideration, I would say whoever is faster on the draw takes the win. Pretty even chances.

I keep seeing you posting this in all the Dr. Manhattan threads; you seem to be missing the point concerning Manhattan reforming himself.

Removing his intrinsic field causes disintegration. While you keep stating that he only came back from having his intrinsic field removed, you're ignoring/moving the focus from the outcome.

Dr. Manhattan came back from being killed on an extensive scale. His heart, his major organs, all the vital parts of the body that keep a person alive were disintegrated. Yet, he was able to keep his consciousness intact and manipulate his atoms to put himself back together.

That means that his consciousness can stay alive despite the failings of his major organs - despite them not existing, in molecular pieces - so why would any other method of kill work on him? Stabbing someone in the head shuts down their brain which shuts down their consciousness. When your brain is dead, you are dead. And all the different manners of dying lead to that brain death. If all the different kill paths lead to that same destination of brain death, the path taken doesn't matter. What is being decapitated going to do to Dr. Manhattan, when hes shown his consciousness can survive with his brain dead(because his brain was also dead when it was disintegrated)? What is being stabbed in the heart going to do to him when he's shown his consciousness can survive with his heart not functioning(because, when it was disintegrated, it also was not functioning)?

It shouldn't matter whether he needs to put his body back from the subatomic pieces, or put it back from having a head and major organs sliced up....he has sufficient control over his atoms that he can change size, teleport, make copies of himself, ect. Whether or not his body is in subatomic pieces, or in larger chunks, he should theoretically be able to put himself back together.

Analogy: That's like saying that a person who tanks a nuclear explosion cannot survive being burned by boiling water...The former causes the same damage of the latter, but 100 times more so and to a more intense degree. It's like saying someone who's shown to tank being stabbed in the heart with a sword needs to also demonstrate he can also survive a papercut.

Jezer, I post this because there is no clear cut definition of an intrinsic field, and just what exactly happens when it is removed. This is a Watchmen U concept, and all we know is that it is some theoretical field that holds stuff together. For all that we know, this ability is only truly activated when this field is removed. Your theory doesn't take into account the unexplained and unknown aspects of Manhattan, and just what truly allowed his consciousness to be freed. If the removal of the intrinsic field of the Watchmen U allowed his consciousness to be freed, awakening some unknown ability or showing a force of will not possessed by others or even divine intervention of a sort, then who is to say that his consciousness won't be trapped in a dying body, imprisoned by the selfsame intrinsic field when subjected to massive trauma and so on?

It's definitely not the same as saying that someone who can tank being stabbed needs to demonstrate they can survive being cut and so on. You are talking aspects of physical trauma and damage. I am talking about an accident that removed a property from Manhattan (his intrinsic field) versus physical trauma and other forms of attacks that aren't shown to remove the same physical property Manhattan had removed.

Until more intel is brought to the table, there is just no proof otherwise. It's a purely speculative argument otherwise, and I find it silly (no offense meant to you and not an attack here, just a general statement) to proclaim his ability to come back from almost any form of attack, when that attack doesn't involve removing his intrinsic field. Hopefully the new Watchmen stuff coming this year will elaborate more on Manhattan and his abilities, and if it proves me wrong, great. I don't mind, because there will be actual proof to use instead of speculation, conjecture, and opinion.

Occam's Razor. There's no use in speculating on the mechanics of what happened to Dr. Manhattan; we only know for certain the facts of what happened.

We don't need to know the clear cut definition or have an in-depth understanding of how the intrinsic field works. If the writers didn't feel the need to include any extra info like that, then for canon purposes there is not more to it. Therefore, there is no need to question whether there was a more convoluted reason as to why Dr. Manhattan survived intrinsic field removal. All we know is that factually his consciousness survived his body being vaporized. To suspect that there was more to it(and then argue against the facts because of such possibilities) would just be speculation(what you're arguing against).

The simplest answer is usually the most likely, and therefore we can simply state that Dr. Manhattan mind can survive independent of the death of his body.

Who's to say his consciousness won't be trapped in a dying body? The fact that Dr. Manhattan has demonstrated sufficient control of his molecules that he could put them back together from being vaporized, he can change his size/shape, he can teleport, and he can make copies of himself. Why would he be trapped in a body he put together himself? It's not his real body, its not his human body(as it doesn't look like it). It's a body he put together atom by atom, that he can mold and manipulate as shown when he grew to a gigantic size. Hypothetically, even if he was trapped inside a dead body, what's stopping him simply vaporizing his own body and freeing his consciousness? His powers originate from his mind, as seen by the fact that he was putting himself back together when he lacked a body.

It is still the same because the path doesn't matter, but the outcome and destination(death). And, the only information we've been giving is that removing the intrinsic field causes vaporization. Like I said earlier, the focus doesn't lie on the intrinsic field. Removing the intrinsic field didn't kill Dr. Manhattan. He died when his body disintergrated. The fact is he died, and that stabbing/ect/ will lead to death, as well.

Until more intel is brought to the table, we must go on the information we have. Your argument against the conclusions based on the information we have is purely speculative. We have enough canon information to draw forth firm conclusions. What you're saying applies to cases where you have such little information that any conclusion is speculation; this isn't one of those cases. We have canon facts and clear logical conclusions we can come to based on them without trying to overthink or secondguess the facts that we have.

I'm glad to hear that there's new Watchmen stuff coming out. I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know.

@Jezer said:

@Wyldsong said:

Occam's Razor. There's no use in speculating on the mechanics of what happened to Dr. Manhattan; we only know for certain the facts of what happened.

We don't need to know the clear cut definition or have an in-depth understanding of how the intrinsic field works. If the writers didn't feel the need to include any extra info like that, then for canon purposes there is not more to it. Therefore, there is no need to question whether there was a more convoluted reason as to why Dr. Manhattan survived intrinsic field removal. All we know is that factually his consciousness survived his body being vaporized. To suspect that there was more to it(and then argue against the facts because of such possibilities) would just be speculation(what you're arguing against).

The simplest answer is usually the most likely, and therefore we can simply state that Dr. Manhattan mind can survive independent of the death of his body.

Who's to say his consciousness won't be trapped in a dying body? The fact that Dr. Manhattan has demonstrated sufficient control of his molecules that he could put them back together from being vaporized, he can change his size/shape, he can teleport, and he can make copies of himself. Why would he be trapped in a body he put together himself? It's not his real body, its not his human body(as it doesn't look like it). It's a body he put together atom by atom, that he can mold and manipulate as shown when he grew to a gigantic size. Hypothetically, even if he was trapped inside a dead body, what's stopping him simply vaporizing his own body and freeing his consciousness? His powers originate from his mind, as seen by the fact that he was putting himself back together when he lacked a body.

It is still the same because the path doesn't matter, but the outcome and destination(death). And, the only information we've been giving is that removing the intrinsic field causes vaporization. Like I said earlier, the focus doesn't lie on the intrinsic field. Removing the intrinsic field didn't kill Dr. Manhattan. He died when his body disintergrated. The fact is he died, and that stabbing/ect/ will lead to death, as well.

Until more intel is brought to the table, we must go on the information we have. Your argument against the conclusions based on the information we have is purely speculative. We have enough canon information to draw forth firm conclusions. What you're saying applies to cases where you have such little information that any conclusion is speculation; this isn't one of those cases. We have canon facts and clear logical conclusions we can come to based on them without trying to overthink or secondguess the facts that we have.

I'm glad to hear that there's new Watchmen stuff coming out. I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know.

But here again my friend, the only fact we know, is that after having his intrinsic field removed, he was able to return, and that we never once see him suffer any other form of attack to verify anything else otherwise. Hence, we have no proof, but I disagree with the underlined. The removal of the intrinsic field is definitely the focus, and obviously the key to what happened to him, and was the entire purpose of the machine -- the removal of that one property is most definitely a key focus. I am sorry, but everything else is still theory on your part, as much as it is on anyones part (mine included), because no one can provide proof, only theory and conjecture.

"Until more intel is brought to the table, we must go on the information we have."

And as I have said, that information is lacking. Without proof, I just can't back any plays stating he can come back from almost any form of attack based on his coming back from having a Watchmen U specific property removed from him, and then is only ever shown coming back from that same thing and nothing else.

As well, there are plenty of characters that can replicate many of the things Manhattan can do (some can do even more, and some were of course doing it long before his comic debut), and it's not just assumed that they can all come back from just anything. Why should we assume that Manhattan can come back then, just because he came back from having a property removed? His abilities are not proof positive of his mortality or immortality -- same as it isn't with other characters with similar abilities that have far more showings. Honestly, I am of the mind that Manhattan shouldn't really be used in battle threads just for the simple reason that there really is not enough information on him currently. He has far too few feats, far too few showings, and there are far too many unknown factors.

Really, I don't want to continue to argue semantics, but the cold hard fact is, there just isn't enough proof, and what may or may not happen is pure theory on both our parts. I will continue to stick with my position as is until there is hard core proof one way or the other. I just don't see using the position that he can't really die and will just reform, when again, we don't really know what happens to him when he suffers attacks that don't remove his intrinsic field. If it turns out I am wrong after the new comics, then I am cool with that, but it doesn't change my argument or make myself and other like minded individuals wrong as of today=) -- again, we are all still sitting on theory.

So, let's stop boring the others, we know our positions, and agree to disagree? I think we can each see where the other is coming from at least, even if we don't agree?

By the way...Occam's Razor...I give you props on that, have not heard that in awhile! And yes, there will defintiley be more Watchmen this year, unless something happens to stall it...hopefully not=)

Here's a link with some of the Before Watchmen intel. And Manhattan will definitely get some more time in the limelight in it:

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=33027

Good debating with you bud, but I have got to get some sleep, and then catch up on some reading tomorrow. Trying to finish off Witchblade, and then finish up the Darkness. Top Cow has made a fan out of me it seems=)

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Our focus lies on different areas, we disagree on what are the cold hard facts, and we ultimately disagree on the implications of what Dr. Manhattan has done.

But, I do definitely see your point of view. And your reasoning is valid given what you're focusing on.

The only problem is that I'll probably cringe everytime I see you post this opinion in a Doctor Manhattan thread, because of the extent to which I disagree with you. But meh.

Anyways, thanks for the link and quality debate. Have a good sleep.

@Jezer said:

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Our focus lies on different areas, we disagree on what are the cold hard facts, and we ultimately disagree on the implications of what Dr. Manhattan has done.

But, I do definitely see your point of view. And your reasoning is valid given what you're focusing on.

The only problem is that I'll probably cringe everytime I see you post this opinion in a Doctor Manhattan thread, because of the extent to which I disagree with you. But meh.

Anyways, thanks for the link and quality debate. Have a good sleep.

For the record Jezer i agree with you 100% here ... I had a very similar argument with wyldsong on another thread... which ended in the same way...

This battle should be locked now .

@Enemybird said:

@Jezer said:

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Our focus lies on different areas, we disagree on what are the cold hard facts, and we ultimately disagree on the implications of what Dr. Manhattan has done.

But, I do definitely see your point of view. And your reasoning is valid given what you're focusing on.

The only problem is that I'll probably cringe everytime I see you post this opinion in a Doctor Manhattan thread, because of the extent to which I disagree with you. But meh.

Anyways, thanks for the link and quality debate. Have a good sleep.

For the record Jezer i agree with you 100% here ... I had a very similar argument with wyldsong on another thread... which ended in the same way...

Our discussion went a little differently, but I think we are cool now, even if we don't agree on the issue=)

SPITE

@Wyldsong said:

@Enemybird said:

@Jezer said:

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Our focus lies on different areas, we disagree on what are the cold hard facts, and we ultimately disagree on the implications of what Dr. Manhattan has done.

But, I do definitely see your point of view. And your reasoning is valid given what you're focusing on.

The only problem is that I'll probably cringe everytime I see you post this opinion in a Doctor Manhattan thread, because of the extent to which I disagree with you. But meh.

Anyways, thanks for the link and quality debate. Have a good sleep.

For the record Jezer i agree with you 100% here ... I had a very similar argument with wyldsong on another thread... which ended in the same way...

Our discussion went a little differently, but I think we are cool now, even if we don't agree on the issue=)

iirc you were pretty hot headed ;)

@Enemybird said:

@Wyldsong said:

@Enemybird said:

@Jezer said:

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Our focus lies on different areas, we disagree on what are the cold hard facts, and we ultimately disagree on the implications of what Dr. Manhattan has done.

But, I do definitely see your point of view. And your reasoning is valid given what you're focusing on.

The only problem is that I'll probably cringe everytime I see you post this opinion in a Doctor Manhattan thread, because of the extent to which I disagree with you. But meh.

Anyways, thanks for the link and quality debate. Have a good sleep.

For the record Jezer i agree with you 100% here ... I had a very similar argument with wyldsong on another thread... which ended in the same way...

Our discussion went a little differently, but I think we are cool now, even if we don't agree on the issue=)

iirc you were pretty hot headed ;)

I was, but it took a certain someone pushing my buttons=P

=)

Seriously though, I think we are good now, right?

Manhattan makes a nose for dark lord then obliterates him.

@Super_Gui_1 said:

Manhattan stomps so hard it's not even funny.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@drgnx said:

Manhattan didn't know his buddy was planning on nuking a city. =p

@Joygirl said:

The only reason he didn't is because Alan Moore is a self-contradicting hack. His power set is basically omnipotence/omniscience.

Actually, he couldn't see that aspect of the timeline due to the Tachyon interference caused by the event itself. And Manhattan would decimate Voldemort.

@Enemybird said:

@drgnx said:

Manhattan didn't know his buddy was planning on nuking a city. =p

Thats because his buddy used tachyons to obscure his vision of the future

I was going to accept the bad plot answer, but thanks!

(Facepalm).

@space_coyote: This is a joke. Voldemort was overrated going by his showings in the movies. Dr Manhattan is nigh-omnipotent, unkillable, and could probably figure out magical energy and manipulate it.

Zomg, tachyons, my only weakness! XP In any event, Voldemort has no access to tachyons, so for purposes of this battle it's still insane spite.

@Bo88gdan said:

This is going to happen to Voldemort.

The Avadra Kedavra kills any living thing. But there are things it doesn't work on, like inanimate objects (though in the books those things tend to blow up from the power). Manhattan is more like a consciousness that interacts with matter on a subatomic level. Hitting him with that would be like hitting a ghost with it. Dr. Manhattan would annihilate Voldemort and his horcruxes instantly.

@BringnIt: Dr. Manhattan can make it so that Voldemort would never even have existed.

Voldemort turns him into a frog.

Stalemate.

Wow, I can't believe this got bumped.

@Nefarious said:

Voldemort turns him into a frog.

Couldn't Manhattan do the same thing to Voldemort?

@beatlesfan134 Prove it.

Manhattan just destroys his wand without he is pretty much human or muggle

Dr. Manhattan slaughters....Spite....Lock now.

Dr.Manhattan flicks his finger up once and vaporizes Voldemort.

Manhattan.

Dr Manhattan stomps.