Dr. Manhattan vs the Beast (InFamous)

Alright. While it should go without saying, I will say it anyway:
 
SPOILER ALERT!If you have not played InFamous or InFamous 2, don't enter - unless you don't mind spoilers, in which case you may read on. 
 
 
You're still reading? Alright, then. Continue.
 
 
 
Location: New York City. They start at opposite sides (kinda significant for both characters. NYC was destroyed in their respective universes)
No prep
Victory conditions: to the death or KO. No BFR. 
 
Who wins?
 

What is going to give Dr. M the most trouble will be that black hole generation (if the beast's wiki page is accurate on is powerset), but I think Dr. M could pull out a win here. 

What is going to give Dr. M the most trouble will be that black hole generation (if the beast's wiki page is accurate on is powerset), but I think Dr. M could pull out a win here. 

Go with Manhattan. 

Going with Manhattan although this is a nice fight.

For anyone who is interested, here are some feats for the Beast:
 
- The power to create small black holes.
- Can survive a direct hit from a nuclear missile; reformed shortly after being hit.
- Telekinesis; throwing cars, people, etc. 
- Great destruction. Casually wiped cities off the face of the East Coast on his trek to New Marei (New Orleans)
 
Haven't beaten the evil ending, so there might be more, but I'm basing this off of his feats from the "good" ending.

Go with Manhattan. 

Any more takers?

For anyone who is interested, here are some feats for the Beast:  - The power to create small black holes. - Can survive a direct hit from a nuclear missile; reformed shortly after being hit. - Telekinesis; throwing cars, people, etc.  - Great destruction. Casually wiped cities off the face of the East Coast on his trek to New Marei (New Orleans)  Haven't beaten the evil ending, so there might be more, but I'm basing this off of his feats from the "good" ending.

the beast doesn't really have TK its really just anti gravity field also you neglected to mention he also has telepathy, teleportation, and some degree of pyrokinesis

but if manhattan could somehow trap him in another dimension or simply remove his life force ill go with manhattan since he would probably scatter his atoms throughout the galaxy or something which would defiantly put the beast out of commission for a while

I mentioned that. See point 2. If you're going to criticize an old post, please at least make sure the claims are valid.

Can't Manhattan simply manipulate The Beast's molecules/DNA and make him a regular human... Or a shoe? Or a cake?

Also, I'm pretty sure The Beast is ultimately defeated by physical damage (could be wrong, haven't played infamous 2 in a long time). Manhattan can pull himself back from nothingness. He can't be beaten in this fight.

Also, also he can see the future (unless someone is screwing with his ability to interact with tachyons a la Ozymandias). He already knows what is going to happen.

Maybe a black hole BFR but I doubt it.

@nothingclever: Beast needed the rayfield inhibitor to be harmed by Cole. Otherwise it was unstoppable.

That said, i lean towards Manhattan. Not that easily. But he could do it.

Manhattan's matter manipulation of living beings only extends to blowing baseline humans up. He has never displayed the level of control or ability to take away powers, rewrite someone's DNA, nor turn them into a shoe or cake. At best, it was stated he could change an inanimate object into maybe a butterfly...but again, it was never confirmed, and is a far cry from messing with living, sentient beings. As well, Manhattan did not pull himself back from nothingness. He had his intrinsic field removed, and rebuilt himself. The atoms and such were not reduced to nothingness, it is just that the glue that held him together was removed (the intrinsic field). His atoms and such were still there, just separated. Also, Manhattan doesn't see the future. He exists at all points along his lifetime simultaneously, and is in effect, a time traveler along his own lifeline since his transformation. He cannot change what he has experienced, as that leads to a fracturing of the quantum reality, and the end of the world. If he gets hit, he already knows it, and he cannot change it. As such, a useless ability for him in combat.

Black holes...Manhattan has never displayed that level of power. He is a matter and energy manipulator who has never done anything of that magnitude with his abilities. It was stated in the books that at best, if the bad guys from the USSR were to launch all of their missiles at once, he could deflect or disarm roughly 60% of them before they reach their targets and blow up. It was also stated that at best he could destroy large areas of soviet territory instantly, which puts him a bit below continent level destructive power wise. Someone with the power to create black holes, could do more damage, and would have better luck with the missiles.

@wyldsong: great info! I agree with you on much of that but I feel like you are applying a limit on manhattan's molecular manipulation. True he has not used it on any super beings but its not like he demonstrated an inability to interact with certain substances. The Beast is made of matter/energy... Manhattan manipulates matter/energy.

Put Manhattan in Cole's place at the end of InFamous 2 vs The Beast with all powers active (and possibly similar attack patters or "charge times")... I just can't see Manhattan not completely shaming Cole's performance all the while maintaining his quantum-displaced-distracted- by-the-minutiae-around-him-disposition.

He leaves Earth for another galaxy to maybe create humans. I get why in the strictest terms that Manhattan's exposition is inadmissable as a feat but we really have no reason to believe he can't create life. That is an extreme feat of matter manipulation.

Good info, made me pick up my copy and double check a few things!

@just_an_average_man: I completely forgot about rayfield inhibitor.

I think this scene is generally blown out of proportion. I believe that the implication is that he's going to create life, from the beginning of its evolutionary cycle, not just suddenly make humans. It's more likely that he intends to formulate the microbes from existing chemicals, and observe them as the grew - that's also characteristic of him, given his scientific attitudes.

The interesting thing is that Manhattan doesn't create anything out of nothing. We see him working with chemicals and machinery throughout Watchmen. If he were truly all powerful, then he shouldn't need to do that.

Can't Manhattan just control his molecules?

@jedixman: perhaps I am just drastically overestimating Manhattan. True, he needs matter to work with. I guess I pictured him literally making human being by manipulating whatever he had at hand... Kinda biblical I guess.

I think it is a question of perceived limits to Manhattan's power. He just seemed like he was in his "infancy" in his new life cycle as a deity. He demonstrates some noticeable character growth, by the end he seemed literally more collected both mentally and temporally and he actually was taking initiative. It could be argued that this was the natural, fatalistic path he must take but regardless he was ready to play god rather than play superhero/symbol/doomsday weapon.

But I've verbally wandered into speculation. I've got nothing to really back it up. But I do like discussing it.

I like this battle. Leaning towards DM but not sure who wins.

@jedixman:

I think Manhattan could. We might be able to with synthetic biology. Primitive as it is now, we've made artificial DNA. With Manhattans knowledge and serous processing, I wouldn't say he can't create life from dirt. Considering all elements required to make life are found in soil.

But that's just my view. But even Dr. Manhattan didn't even think he was all powerful. And a black hole.

I'm actually not sure if Dr. Manhattan can come back from that. That's worse than being disintegrated. Worse than being atomized.

Which is essentially what I said. It seems within his character to want to see life evolve from its primordial stages. I don't see him just making fully-formed humans. It's not necessarily a question of could he, but it seems to me that he would rather given with the microbial stage. If time is meaningless to him, then why not sit around watching life be created from his own hand?

@jedixman: Yeah I misunderstood. I wouldn't put it past him to do that just watch. He never really thought like regular humans did.

Canon wise, this is what he does with the life feat:

They don't even have him fully create life, and this scene is closer to the extent of his ability in the original series. He alters something that is already there, and then basically sits back to watch and see what it eventually becomes. You see, I'm not putting limits on his powers, I am just going based on what the series has shown, and while Manhattan is powerful, he is more or less a mid tier matter/energy manipulator. You can't think of it based on a power set with no limits, you have to think of it based on levels of power and proficiency (like Superman level strength versus Spider-Man level strength, they both have superstrength, but at different levels of ability). He hasn't shown Beyonder or even Molecule Man levels of proficiency and power with matter manipulation.

As for who would win this fight? Don't know, but if the Beast has telepathy and can use it offensively, Jon has no defense against that. In the end, I am not trying to argue a win or loss, I am just trying to keep his power level in perspective.

@wyldsong: I hadn't really thought about how DM might rank in terms of Marvel/DC power tiers. Where would you rank TB?

Regarding limits, my point was that there seems to be no reason his matter manipulation wouldn't work on TB despite no previous showings vs superbeings.

I wonder if TB could handle the scope of DM's mind/perspective?

To be honest, if the Beast had to reform from a nuclear strike, then it sounds like he has some good self molecular control. At that point, if the best Manhattan has done to something with a will is blow them up, then I just don't see it working out all that well for him in the end. Then again, I don't know the full extent of the scene of the nuclear strike. Without seeing something more extensive from Manhattan beyond just blowing up a baseline human, then unfortunately there really isn't much to go off of and debate on that front.

As for TB and DMs mind/perspective...what is the perspective of a being that can rip open time and space, and create a black hole from nothing? Unless Jon at the time has fractured quantum reality and is in the hive mind thing of multiple timelines and multiple Jon's throughout the timelines, I don't see it being an issue, though the last issue of Manhattan's latest book, and the end of the original Watchmen hint that his temporal ability is no more, which would scale back that scope and persepctive.

Where to place TB though? He can do some pretty bad arse things from what I have read, but is at least able to be affected (if only temporarily) by a nuclear strike. He can affect gravity, is a city buster, and can regenerate himself, can grow to large sizes, teleportation, telepathy...that's a pretty hefty list, and there are a few more things from what I am reading as well. If we think of the tiers as street, high street, mid tier, high, herald and beyond herald...somewhere between the mid tier and high levels from what I have read (which is admittedly limited information).

Here ya go. Video starts with him getting hit. After he's hit, skip to 23:25.

Here's the video where John talks about the day he was atomized by the Ray Sphere. He, like Manhattan, reformed himself from atoms when he first gained his powers.

John

If a guy with just lightening powers can beat The Beast what trouble does Dr. M have? I'm almost certain this is a Mismatch.

@jedixman: Thanks for the videos. If he can reform himself like Manhattan, then I don't see Manhattan's blowing things up trick working.

What is manhattan's feats ? Like destructive capability, durability etc..

Neither can really kill one another, although I say Manhattan sice he could just annihilate the Beast's body whenever it reforms

Cole far from did it by himself. He had to have a heavily specialized device precisely used to even start to have a chance at taking him down.

Jawsome match-up

i'd like this simulated

Maybe The Beast

@nothingclever:

I'm not so sure because the Beast also has complete molecular control of his own body, and was only defeated by the RFI because that was a weapon designed specifically for killing every conduit on Earth... I reckon its a stalemate.

Lol no, The Beast can exist as pure consciousness and manipulate quantum molecules and release ray field blasts that bio leach all life within his range, in Kessler's timeline, the Beast was implied and EVEN shown to have split the moon with a single RFB and grown so strong that "He destroyed the entire world" which you can interpret as you wish, but this is nowhere near a mismatch.

Manhattan stomps

not rly but mk

Manhattan really does stomp.

How tho?