dr manhattan versus the saint of killers

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bradlikesunity

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#1  Edited By bradlikesunity

The Saint of Killers and Dr. Manhattanare easily the two most powerful entities in either of their respective universes, they in fact are two of the most powerful human beings conceived in comics.

The "Preacher"s' Saint of killers is high dogmatic being who derives his powers from the word and logic of God.  In the the "Preacher" Series the Saint of killers, upon having a heart cold enough to freez hell the Saint of killers got the attention of satan and the angel of death.  The two of them, afraid of the man who's heart was cold enough to freeze over hell, offered to make him the new angel of death or saint of killers.  Satan personally crafted two revolvers out of the sword of the angel of death and imbued them with the powers to never miss a target, never deal anything but a lethal blow, and never run out of bullets.  The saint of killers has used the weopens to kill entire villages, armies, tanks, satan and even god himself.  He is also immortal, and has survived bullets wounds, artilery and even nuclear bombs.

No Caption Provided


Dr. Manhattan is a high metaphysical being.  Disintegrated by an intrinsic field separator Dr. Manhattan (john osterman) was able to reconstruct himself by memory and become an immensely powerful creature that could change the nature of reality himself.  His power of space, time, causality, property and probability make him powerful enough to create any object he desire or destroy anything he sees.  His powers are shown to be near limitless.

No Caption Provided



The question than of course is could Dr. Manhattan change the nature of reality enough to avoid a bullet from the saint of killers..  Dr. Manhattan can change the nature of reality itself, he possibly could change the composition of a bullet rendering satans creed of "No shot they fired would miss its mark".  Could he perhaps time travel backwards to avoid the shot.  Could he change himself into nothing into something dead like a rock?  And even so could he deal any damage to the immortal "Saint of killers"?

It's the laws of science versus the law's of god, so what do you think
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DC_Marvel_1000

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#2  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000

i swear this fight has been done

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bradlikesunity

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#3  Edited By bradlikesunity
@DC_Marvel_1000: i swear this fight has been done

I looked through the battles topics first and didn't see it
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DC_Marvel_1000

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#4  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000
@bradlikesunity said:
"@DC_Marvel_1000: i swear this fight has been doneI looked through the battles topics first and didn't see it"

you would be right, sorry for that
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bradlikesunity

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#5  Edited By bradlikesunity
@DC_Marvel_1000: you would be right, sorry for that

its cool buddy, i still might be wrong, but do you have any opinions on the post
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DC_Marvel_1000

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#6  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000
@bradlikesunity said:
"@DC_Marvel_1000: you would be right, sorry for thatits cool buddy, i still might be wrong, but do you have any opinions on the post"

stalemate or SOK wins since he killed god and dr.M is more or less a version of god in his comics
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King_Saturn

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#7  Edited By King_Saturn
Saint of Killers wins here
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Chaos Prime

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#8  Edited By Chaos Prime
@King Saturn said:
" Saint of Killers wins here
"
Agreed.
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morpheus_

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#9  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
SOKs' colts never miss...And they kill the target (PIS aside) with 100% of success...On the other hand, Dr M faces an opponent where none of his abilities could harm...He's a magical being, an entity that once unleashed, cannot be called back. SOK takes this.
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Addictedtopinescent

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Dr. Manhattan makes his bullets disapear, makes him disapear, (or just sends parts of his body to different places of the universe, 

He could go back in time and kill the saint before the battle, whatever, he can't lose here imo
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#11  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@Addictedtopinescent said:
" Dr. Manhattan makes his bullets disapear, makes him disapear, (or just sends parts of his body to different places of the universe, 
He could go back in time and kill the saint before the battle, whatever, he can't lose here imo
"
The bullets are mystical...And tell me an instance where Dr M has turned back in time...He knows the future, because he lives at all times simultaneously...Far from what you claim he can do.
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geraldthesloth

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#12  Edited By geraldthesloth

SOK stomps.

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Kastiel

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#13  Edited By Kastiel
@geraldthesloth said:
"SOK stomps."

Agreed.
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DC_Marvel_1000

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#14  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000
@geraldthesloth said:
"SOK stomps."

qft
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bradlikesunity

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#15  Edited By bradlikesunity
@Morpheus_:The bullets are mystical...And tell me an instance where Dr M has turned back in time...He knows the future, because he lives at all times simultaneously...Far from what you claim he can do.

yeah this touches on something i was wondering, in "Watchmen" Dr. Manhattan says "iam in my apartment" "I am in Vietnam", it seems that he has the ability to travel time but he does not have the ability ti do anything to alter the past.  So he seems to be following the laws of einstein that you could travel forward at a different rate, but never go backward, but Einstein also thought all time was existing at one.  Dr. M is also almost entirely detached from his humanity, so even though he understands the future he may not have the will to change it.  Either way it is not apparent from "Watchmen" that Dr. M is effective at alter events in time.  But what if he turned himself into something inanimate?  was if he was just a rock, something without life?
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morpheus_

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#16  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@bradlikesunity said:
" @Morpheus_:The bullets are mystical...And tell me an instance where Dr M has turned back in time...He knows the future, because he lives at all times simultaneously...Far from what you claim he can do.

yeah this touches on something i was wondering, in "Watchmen" Dr. Manhattan says "iam in my apartment" "I am in Vietnam", it seems that he has the ability to travel
time but he does not have the ability ti do anything to alter the past.  So he seems to be following the laws of einstein that you could travel forward at a different rate,
but never go backward, but Einstein also thought all time was existing at one.  Dr. M is also almost entirely detached from his humanity, so even though he understands
the future he may not have the will to change it.  Either way it is not apparent from "Watchmen" that Dr. M is effective at alter events in time.  But what if he turned himself into something inanimate?  was if he was just a rock, something without life?
"

I only use the comics here, and in the comics he says no such thing (or if he does, I don't remember it). But I understand what you are trying to say. What you need to realize, is that Dr M's molecular control is irrelevant, since SOK has proven that he he has no need for his opponent to be corporeal in order to succesfully hit him. And even if he altered himself, he would still be sentient. And no one has effectively brought up a single point: in what way is Dr M going to harm SOK?

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DaMainMan

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#17  Edited By DaMainMan

The celestial Lobo aka The Saint of Killers wins here.

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MKF30

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#18  Edited By MKF30

Dr. M 

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#19  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@MKF30 said:
" Dr. M  "
How?
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Dr. M does not alter the timeline because all of his life is his present. He exists at all these time frames concurrently, so when blake shoots the pregnant lady in vietnam it actually IS a surprise to him and not something he could do anything about, because that was his present.

Dr. M probably has less abiliity to alter the future than anyone else. At least if you or I try to alter a future outcome we can do so under the impression that we have some chance of success.

An example of seeing the future, and being able to alter it would be the movie "Next" where he sees his future and how to alter it, also, all possible futures that could arise from him taking action to alter it. Manhattan lives in a deterministic reality where his actions, and those of everyone around them are already "written" and can not be changed. Freedom of choice, in this instance, is an illusion.

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Akwa

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#21  Edited By Akwa

I'm going to go with Saint of Killers here. His bullets, when fired, cannot miss and will always kill.

I doubt Dr M could turn his bullets away since 1) They cannot miss and 2) God himself could not.

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Dynoblaze

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#22  Edited By Dynoblaze

SOK win in my opinion.


At the risk of going off topic. My question is who CAN beat the Saint of Killers? He's pretty much unbeatable. Maybe an Emma Frost(Mind Rape) Magneto(Stop or maybe slow the bullets down) and Scarlet Witch(alter reality so he never existed or change his attitude) tag team?
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#23  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@Dynoblaze said:
" SOK win in my opinion.

At the risk of going off topic. My question is who CAN beat the Saint of Killers? He's pretty much unbeatable. Maybe an Emma Frost(Mind Rape) Magneto(Stop or maybe slow the bullets down) and Scarlet Witch(alter reality so he never existed or change his attitude) tag team?
"
All of them are dead in about three seconds.
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MKF30

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#24  Edited By MKF30

@Morpheus, I just feel Dr. M would given his abilities.

DR. M btw in that scene ^ could technically done something but didn't, Comedian even said "you could have turned this into steam or wahtever" if you wanted but you didn't...Dr. M doesn't have that "Superman" mentality, as time goes on he gets more disconnected from human behavior and Earth's ways, he just doesn't seem to care eventually. But yeah, he can't alter the future or past he just knows what's coming.

@ this topic of  God apparently failing vs. SOK is so retarded lol, ahh only in Marvel.....real life yeah God would own everyone.

I still would have vaped Adrian for what he did instead of Rorshach....I get the reason but damn that kind of sucked at the same time.

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#25  Edited By Dynoblaze
@Morpheus_ said:
All of them are dead in about three seconds. "
Really? The guns and bullets are metal so wouldn't Magneto be able to hold them down while Emma invades his mind and Scarlet Witch uses her reality powers at the same time to wipe him from existence.
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#26  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
You do realize that this is no justification as to why Dr M could win here...In fact, it is no reason, at all.
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#27  Edited By Akwa
@Dynoblaze said:
"@Morpheus_ said:
All of them are dead in about three seconds. "
Really? The guns and bullets are metal so wouldn't Magneto be able to hold them down while Emma invades his mind and Scarlet Witch uses her reality powers at the same time to wipe him from existence.
"

His bullets once fired, cannot miss. This means that nothing can hold them down. As for Scarlet Witch wiping him from existence, how would she be able to do that? God himself was unable to wipe out Saint of Killers.
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#28  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@Dynoblaze said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
All of them are dead in about three seconds. "
Really? The guns and bullets are metal so wouldn't Magneto be able to hold them down while Emma invades his mind and Scarlet Witch uses her reality powers at the same time to wipe him from existence.
"
SOK operates on a far larger scale than anything SW has demonstrated the ability to alter before...Not to mention, her powers are bound to her mental state...On normal conditions, she would be unable to "wish" him away. Even true reality wrappers of the highest level (p.e. Frankin Richards, Mad Jim Jaspers), shouldn't be able to accomplish that...And as I've said repeatedly in vain...SOK is a mystical being...Nothing assures as that his bullets are metallic in nature, and thus nothing assures as that Magneto would be able to affect their course. Even if we overcome the fact that once fired, the bullets cannot be stopped...Not even by God Himself...

Anyway...Too much time spent, in a one-sided battle.
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#29  Edited By Dynoblaze
@Akwa said:

His bullets once fired, cannot miss. This means that nothing can hold them down. As for Scarlet Witch wiping him from existence, how would she be able to do that? God himself was unable to wipe out Saint of Killers. "
Ah, I see. Magneto's toast. But I still think Scarlet Witch has a chance by using her magic/reality manipulation to bring back his family or turn him into a nice guy. And Emma might too if she uses her mind control to order him to shoot himself (he's vulnerable there cause Preacher's voice stopped him and this is more of a literal mind take over than a "god command") 
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DaMainMan

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#30  Edited By DaMainMan

The only person who could have beat the Saint would have been Rev Jesse Custer when he still had Genesis. Outside of that everyone else is wormfood.

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bradlikesunity

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#31  Edited By bradlikesunity

The basic question is dogmatic law versus physics, and i guess dogma is one of the few ways of circumventing physics, but then again who is to say that doctor manhattan cant just turn himself into stone or something else that is dead that cannot be killed because inanimate matter is not alive.

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Akwa

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#32  Edited By Akwa
@Dynoblaze said:
"@Akwa said:

His bullets once fired, cannot miss. This means that nothing can hold them down. As for Scarlet Witch wiping him from existence, how would she be able to do that? God himself was unable to wipe out Saint of Killers. "
Ah, I see. Magneto's toast. But I still think Scarlet Witch has a chance by using her magic/reality manipulation to bring back his family or turn him into a nice guy. And Emma might too if she uses her mind control to order him to shoot himself (he's vulnerable there cause Preacher's voice stopped him and this is more of a literal mind take over than a "god command") 
"

Yes, the Preacher's Voice of Command immobolised the Saint of Killers. But remember the Voice of Command stems from Genesis, a nigh omnipotent being. And even then he couldn't order SOK to kill himself or stop hunting him. If Genesis' mind control partially failed against him, why should Emma's do anything at all?

As Morpheus pointed out, Scarlet Witch's power is tied to her mental state. Most of the time, her power is sketchy as best. As for turning him into a nice guy, first she would have to erase his anger and his anger is powerful enough to freeze Hell itself, which is an entire seperate dimension.
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#33  Edited By Hellos

SOK

Just nothing the Doc can do here.

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#34  Edited By Nerx

Only Cassidy the undead vampire survived the shot , due to him being undead or PIS writing

SOK wins this, by castration via bullet

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Akwa

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#35  Edited By Akwa
@Nerx said:
"Only Cassidy the undead vampire survived the shot , due to him being undead or PIS writingSOK wins this, by castration via bullet"

It was PIS.
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#36  Edited By jesterlichloath

saint takes it

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#37  Edited By lordraiden
@Dynoblaze said:
"SOK win in my opinion.

At the risk of going off topic. My question is who CAN beat the Saint of Killers? He's pretty much unbeatable. Maybe an Emma Frost(Mind Rape) Magneto(Stop or maybe slow the bullets down) and Scarlet Witch(alter reality so he never existed or change his attitude) tag team?
"

He can't be mind raped, the bullets are beyond Magneto, they've killed both Satan & God in his universe, Scarlett witch would be dead before she can open her mouth!
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#38  Edited By sevennames27

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

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#39  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@Akwa said:
" @Nerx said:
"Only Cassidy the undead vampire survived the shot , due to him being undead or PIS writingSOK wins this, by castration via bullet"
It was PIS. "
And bad at that.
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#40  Edited By sevennames27

Dr. M is the One-Above-All in his U.

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Akwa

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#41  Edited By Akwa


@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"

Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God.
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the human Juggernaut

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@Akwa said:
"

@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"
Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God. "
apparently the god in vertigo can die since he's, well, dead.
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#43  Edited By sevennames27
@Akwa said:
"

@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"
Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God. "

And that is just stupid extreme PIS. The product of some Meth addict writer.
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Akwa

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#44  Edited By Akwa
@the human Juggernaut said:
"@Akwa said:
"

@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"
Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God. "
apparently the god in vertigo can die since he's, well, dead."

God in Vertigo was also an energy being. Saint killed him. Just because Dr M doesn't have a physical body doesn't mean SOK cannot kill him.
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Akwa

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#45  Edited By Akwa
@sevennames27 said:
"@Akwa said:
"

@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"
Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God. "

And that is just stupid extreme PIS. The product of some Meth addict writer. "

No actually. It's not PIS. It's clearly stated that the Saints main power is the ability to kill anything.
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DC_Marvel_1000

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#46  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000
@sevennames27 said:
"@Akwa said:
"

@sevennames27
said:
"

How can you kill some one who can not die? Dr M does not even need to have a body, and could not be stopped he could destroy the Earth with out even trying. So because neither can die, Dr M wins because after destroying the Earth he could just go some were else.

"
Saint of Killers can kill things that can't die. He's killed God. "

And that is just stupid extreme PIS. The product of some Meth addict writer. "
ok now hold it, GO READ A FU#%ING COMIC, saint of killers if you knew is the idea that he is the abstract of god, he is the thing that kills all and never ends, vengence if you will, he is able to kill ANYTHING with one shot and his guns never miss nor do the miss-fire so come off it.
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sevennames27

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#47  Edited By sevennames27

GOD by definition is beyond death, so even if the bullet should kill anything, shooting GOD would then unravel the universe ending every thing.

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#48  Edited By DC_Marvel_1000
@sevennames27 said:
"

GOD by definition is beyond death, so even if the bullet should kill anything, shooting GOD would then unravel the universe ending every thing.

"

wrong on that one, god made it to kill anything,ANYTHING, he never thought SOK would turn on him thus why he did this, and it's a comic RULES CAN BE BROKEN.
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sevennames27

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#49  Edited By sevennames27
@DC_Marvel_1000 said:
"@sevennames27 said:
"

GOD by definition is beyond death, so even if the bullet should kill anything, shooting GOD would then unravel the universe ending every thing.

"
wrong on that one, god made it to kill anything,ANYTHING, he never thought SOK would turn on him thus why he did this, and it's a comic RULES CAN BE BROKEN. "

Rule 1. God can not die.

Rule 2. Gun shot can kill anyone.

End result two fundamental laws are at odds and destroy the fabric of creation.

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Akwa

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#50  Edited By Akwa
@sevennames27 said:
"

GOD by definition is beyond death, so even if the bullet should kill anything, shooting GOD would then unravel the universe ending every thing.

"

That's the thing. Saint of Killers can kill everything. He also killed the Devil too if that makes you feel better.

As for the universe unravelling part, the centrepoint of the Preacher Universe was God's Throne in Heaven. After he killed God, the Saint of Killers sat on it, making him (in theory) the new Supreme Being.