Dr. Fate vs Nicol Bolas

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Dr. Fate

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Nicol Bolas

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Post-Mending Nicol Bolas

They fight for the title of Pharaoh.

Who wins?

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Kevd4wg

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Isn't Bolas star level?

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From what i saw in CV Bolas should be well above BA.

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@superentity: @kevd4wg: Yea I guess this was a miss match. I just liked the villainous Egyptian magical being theme

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Zetsu-San

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#5  Edited By Zetsu-San

@banthabot said:

@superentity: @kevd4wg: Yea I guess this was a miss match. I just liked the villainous Egyptian magical being theme

He's not evil, but just use Dr Fate instead. Nabu isn't technically Egyptian, but he was worshiped in Egypt.

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I know nothing of either of these characters.

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Zetsu-San

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I heard that New 52 fate sucks, but I don't know much about him

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noah_ouellette

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Bolas should take this. Sorin should take this as well. Any who existed pre mending should take a fight of this caliber

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WastelandMan

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I know nothing about Bolas.

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@wastelandman:

You should read this CaV then.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-nicol-bolas-banthabot-magik-jardinain2-1917918/#js-message-30

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@noah_ouellette: I honestly don't understand why people think Post-Mending Sorin is so powerful. Yea he is really good but he isn't that much greater than Jace or Nissa.

Anyway, by that pre-mending logic, Ob Nixilis and Liliana Vess> Dr. Fate too.

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Feats for Fate? Bolas is at least solar system+ in power and durability.

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I heard that New 52 fate sucks, but I don't know much about him

He got stomped by evil Superman.

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#17  Edited By decaf_wizard

I know nothing about new 52 Fate

@banthabot said:

@noah_ouellette: I honestly don't understand why people think Post-Mending Sorin is so powerful. Yea he is really good but he isn't that much greater than Jace or Nissa.

Anyway, by that pre-mending logic, Ob Nixilis and Liliana Vess> Dr. Fate too.

Liliana Vess isn't as powerful as other pre mending walkers on account of being born shortly before the mending. Its stated now the only thing that makes planeswalkers exceptional is their ability to do just that: Planeswalk, allowing them to accumulate magic and knowledge from across the planes.

Guys and Gals like Nahiri, Sorin, and Bolas have millennia of experience under their belts. Thats why they are better than the new age Planeswalkers.

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@decaf_wizard: Sure they have experience but that isn't exactly something that automatically makes them better than everyone else. In overall power people like Nahiri, and Sorin aren't more powerful than the best post-mending walkers, like Nissa, Gideon, Jace, and Kiora (and im talking pre bident Kiora). That experience only carries them so far, at some point you have to look at what their abilities are, what the extent of their power is, and how does that compare to other walkers.

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decaf_wizard

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@decaf_wizard: Sure they have experience but that isn't exactly something that automatically makes them better than everyone else. In overall power people like Nahiri, and Sorin aren't more powerful than the best post-mending walkers, like Nissa, Gideon, Jace, and Kiora (and im talking pre bident Kiora). That experience only carries them so far, at some point you have to look at what their abilities are, what the extent of their power is, and how does that compare to other walkers.

Fair enough, but remember only the cream of the post mending crop can hope to compete with the Pre-Mending guys. Guys like Jace and Gideon aren't the average post mending walker

I disagree with Nahiri and Sorin being only "slightly more powerful" than the best pre mending walker. Sorin essentially mid diffed Avacyn after she beat Jace and Tamiyo in a 2v1. Nahiri is basically his equal or slight superior and Sorin even though she was capable of killing Ugin

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@decaf_wizard: Most of that Avacyn fight was physical which Sorin dominated because of his baller healing factor, and physical stats. She couldn't kill him with her spear because he healed but she used it throughout. This drew the battle out and makes it seem more impressive than it is. Sorin did over power her which I will admit is a fantastic display of power.

The Jace/Tamiyo fight is over exaggerated. Tamiyo engaged Avacyn on her own while Jace prepared a spell to disable her, and Tamiyo was not trying to kill Avacyn in that battle. But Avacyn fully transformed to the dark side and broke Jaces TP spell and began killing him. Tamiyo refused to intervene anymore at that point, and that is when Sorin shows up. Avacyn never engaged Tamiyo and Jace actively trying to destroy her at the same time. But i will admit that Avacyn is easily on par with some of the most powerful post-mending walkers.

On the whole I think Sorin's destructive capacity is a bit lower than some of the top tier post-mending walkers, his TP is good but he'd still get wrecked by Jace, his stats are some of the best but I don't see him having more strength than say Gideon or Nixilis, his sword is hax, he is one of the fastest walkers, and his healing factor is OP. Im not saying he is weak, I just don't think he is that great that other walkers couldn't compete.

I personally would love to see a Gideon vs Sorin debate because honestly they would make for a good battle.

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#22  Edited By Laurus

@banthabot I still don't have any feats for Fate, but unless he can easily bust multiple solar systems, or survive the end of the multiverse (considering Bolas wasn't concerned about the collapse of the multiverse, I'd say his durability is likely Multiversal+) Then he doesn't stand a chance. Not to mention Bolas' casual attacks were causing multiversal time rifts.

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@laurus: This is POST-Mending Bolas. You are thinking about Bolas before the Mending. Bolas is not as powerful as he used to be in this battle

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@banthabot: it is actually stated that the pre mending walkers retained some of the extra power they had over post mending walkers. It says very little was retained but still enough to put them well beyond post mending walkers. I'm surprised you missed this tidbit of info but to be fair I had to hunt down the very long wiki page to find it and it's reference.

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@banthabot: Ah, but still, wasn't he considered a huge threat by the Theros Gods? He also defeated the 8 Ahmonkhet Gods. That should put him above solar system level surely?

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#26  Edited By decaf_wizard

@banthabot said:

@decaf_wizard: Most of that Avacyn fight was physical which Sorin dominated because of his baller healing factor, and physical stats. She couldn't kill him with her spear because he healed but she used it throughout. This drew the battle out and makes it seem more impressive than it is. Sorin did over power her which I will admit is a fantastic display of power.

The Jace/Tamiyo fight is over exaggerated. Tamiyo engaged Avacyn on her own while Jace prepared a spell to disable her, and Tamiyo was not trying to kill Avacyn in that battle. But Avacyn fully transformed to the dark side and broke Jaces TP spell and began killing him. Tamiyo refused to intervene anymore at that point, and that is when Sorin shows up. Avacyn never engaged Tamiyo and Jace actively trying to destroy her at the same time. But i will admit that Avacyn is easily on par with some of the most powerful post-mending walkers.

On the whole I think Sorin's destructive capacity is a bit lower than some of the top tier post-mending walkers, his TP is good but he'd still get wrecked by Jace, his stats are some of the best but I don't see him having more strength than say Gideon or Nixilis, his sword is hax, he is one of the fastest walkers, and his healing factor is OP. Im not saying he is weak, I just don't think he is that great that other walkers couldn't compete.

I personally would love to see a Gideon vs Sorin debate because honestly they would make for a good battle.

Well I mean Avacyn couldn't hope to beat Sorin where magic was concerned either. It wasn't just the fact he had a baller healing factor, she literally couldn't touch him with magic. And she had help too, she summoned her angels which were more or less fodderized by Sorin and he was holding back for the first half of the fight

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Even unmaking her is likely a feat in and of itself because the creation itself is not something within his power to replicate any longer. He made her pre mending.

And sure its not like it was a flat 2v1 but she virtually stomped Jace after already fighting Tamiyo.

Nixilis is a pre mending walker who is basically a demon at this point and Gideon is undoubtably the best in physical durability and up there in strength, but lacks other stats

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@noah_ouellette: MTG lore is vast. There is a lot that I missed. Could you show me that quote or scan?

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@decaf_wizard: Im aware of that but what strength feats does Avacyn have? Jace and Tamiyo aren't super strength characters. I don't think that put's his strength on even the same level as even Gideon

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@banthabot: "to be fair I had to hunt down this info a long way down a wiki page" I didn't care. To save the quote at the time. Though I wished I did. I may find it at some point in the future again, but my love of magic has been retained for a while now

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#30  Edited By decaf_wizard

@banthabot said:

@decaf_wizard: Im aware of that but what strength feats does Avacyn have? Jace and Tamiyo aren't super strength characters. I don't think that put's his strength on even the same level as even Gideon

Honestly I have no idea but the point is that Sorin was holding back, not that he could physically overpower her

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Ok, ok, first, Nicol Bolas is nowhere near Star System level, specially his Post-Mending version... Again, what he held together was 5 pieces of a planet, that's it. That makes him planet level, to maybe multi planet and that's a huuuuuuuuuge stretch.

Classic Fate would decimate Pre-Mending Nicol Bolas who was 1000x his Post-Mending version. The only Dr. Fate I see going down to Nicol Bolas is New 52 Fate.

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@lucano: Post Mending Bolas dictated how a sun would move across the sky for the next two decades. He is beyond planetary my dude.

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@banthabot: Which Dr. Fate is it then? There's been quite a lot

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@lucano said:

Ok, ok, first, Nicol Bolas is nowhere near Star System level, specially his Post-Mending version... Again, what he held together was 5 pieces of a planet, that's it. That makes him planet level, to maybe multi planet and that's a huuuuuuuuuge stretch.

Classic Fate would decimate Pre-Mending Nicol Bolas who was 1000x his Post-Mending version. The only Dr. Fate I see going down to Nicol Bolas is New 52 Fate.

. . . have you not read Hour of Destruction?

That feat with Alara was the entire plane iirc, not a planet, seeing as though the plane had fractured into five specific pieces.

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#38  Edited By Lucano

@banthabot:Granted, I forgot about that... Still, his destructive capabilities are way below star system.

@jardinain2: Alara was a planet that got fractured... The 'shards' were just a part of the main planet from the plane...

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@lucano:

Alara was a planet that got fractured... The 'shards' were just a part of the main planet from the plane...

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because in Alara Reborn I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated to be the plane of Alara that was fractured. The wiki also doesn't make any mention of it being just the planet.

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how does mtg characters are star level? o.o

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#41  Edited By Lucano

@jardinain2:

'There are almost infinite planes in the multiverse, separated from each other by the space known as the Blind Eternities, which is filled with chaotic energies, including Aether and mana. The inhabitants of most of these planes have no idea that theirs is not the only universe, or indeed the only world—generally only planeswalkers know that, and are able to travel intentionally between planes.

Although Planes are sometimes thought to be a separate world occupying the same universe as other planes, each plane is a separate universe in its own right, with few planes having multiple worlds, possibly with some inhabitable ones.'

This is mostly covered in these two articles by Doug Beyer and Brady Dommermuth:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/known-mutliverse-2008-03-19

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/savor-flavor/brooms-planes-and-valakuts-tales-inbox-2009-11-25

This reinforces the idea of each plane while 'considered' as a separate 'universe', is more like a small pocket universe or simply as Leshrac called them in Future Sight, 'realms', worlds separated by an 'outer space', which is the Blind Eternities. While some planes have a star (or more) within them, they are hardly even a star system. When Both Nicol Bolas and Leshrac stood right next to Kamigawa, there was nothing else, just the two halves of the world and that's it, no other planets, no sun/moon, satellites, nor anything else, just the plane itself. Sure due to the nature of planes which is not only physical but magical, their entire nature and structure is way more complex that just a mere planet. Personally I think that the destruction of a Plane (the main world of it at least), is way greater a feat than busting a planet for example in the DC or Marvel Universes, however destroying or manipulating a 'Plane' certainly does not make a character from Magic a universe buster, not even a star system buster, unless of course, that plane is confirmed to be 'Actual Universe Sized', or Actual Star System Sized. Not even Amonkhet is confirmed to be a whole star system itself... As far as I remember is just its plane-planet and its sun... That's hardly a star system. The same for Alara, The shards got separated from each other and it was just 5 pieces of the main plane planet, but when both Nicol Bolas and Ajani stood outside of the fabric of the 5 shards, there was nothing else at all, Alara is just a planet-world-sized plane that got fractured and Blind Eternities between the fractured parts, until the maelstrom reunited them.

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Classic Fate wtf stomps

New 52 Fate wins. Still don't see anything impressive from Bolas to say he can beat high tier Marvel/DC sorcerers like Strange, Fate and Doom

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