I would Just like to point out that while Fate is vastly more powerful than Constantine. Using guile and cunning John has defeated/beaten characters as or MORE powerful.
Such as
Unless your all telling me Fate is SOOO much more powerful than the presence.
@beatboks1: That's not a defeat, beat. Earlier in that story John was tricked by the First of the Fallen, and what he did was suggest that with him in charge of Hell, God's (or the Presence's, if you will) troubles would be considerably worse in a few hundred years time. It does nothing to cement a case for him against Fate in a direct confrontation.
@Morpheus_: True, but it is an instance of him getting the better of the Presence. Hence the reason I said defeated/beaten . His many instances of defeating the First of the Fallen (who would arguably be Fate level) are more. When he took Gabriel's heart as a means of hiding himself from and battling the FOF, there are dozens more where he has gotten the better of beings arguably in Fate's league. For that matter showing Timothy Hunter how to get certain things done.
I'm not saying for a second he wins. Just pointing out there is more to this than JUST power, the prep means he can take teh odd one.
@beatboks1: I can't say I recall the FotF doing anything on Fate's level off hand. Most of his power is implied, or tied to his stature, while Fate has ample demonstrations of actual power to exceed the Fallen's few on panel feats, but I don't need to instruct you on Fate; it would be blasphemous on my part. Also, the First seems to suffer from down syndrome under most writers, bar Mike Carey. John has actually said he can outplay him with one hand tied behind his back or some other colloquialism of that sort.
Sure, John has accomplished amazing things with prep. I'd argue (and already have) that for a man of his means, his prep feats outweigh those of some of the most infamous prep masters in comics. But still, even in the example you mentioned of him stealing Gabriel's heart, he had extensive prep (that extended to months, not just a week), outside help from various sources, and he caught Gabriel unaware by using Chantinelle. Also, by the end of that charade, he quite nearly still lost to the First of the Fallen, who stole Gabriel's heart back. Even John's absolute best plans are not without plenty of cracks, and in most occasions they are one-sided -- his opponents don't have extensive prep of their own to counter him, and/or underestimate him.
It's why I don't think John always wins in prep battles just because of who he has tricked in the past. Time frame, context and who his opponent is count for much. In an actual comic, I am quite certain (and willing to bet on it), that if John learned he had to go against someone with the helmet of Fate, his response would be, "Bollocks!" and unless the lives of people close to him like Chas or Epiphany were in danger, he'd simply go into hiding and let the affair blow off.
@Morpheus_: I am looking at this based on the "implied" power. I can recall some references to that level of power during the ark where John killed the FOF in Greece resulting in him being made mortal.There are also plenty of fate's own battles where he had to work for a victory over demonic level beings who would not be at the level of the Lord of Hell. Some of the demons that John has exorcised or defeated also have showings level with those of Fate's enemies (that he has had to fight hard to beat)
Not questioning that the prep her is not enough or lacks context, or saying that John wins in a full on confrontation. However the notion that Fate "obliterates", "stomps" or that there is "NO WAY" john can best him is IMO fraught with problems.
I think your take on the whole "bollocks" and duck and cover is completely correct (let's face it his first act when FOF was after his @$$ was to hide it by calling in debts from the succubus etc. He also at the same time however started preparing for the inevitable failure of his hiding. I think your right, that his first instinct would be to keep out of harms way, but I also think he'd be getting means to protect himself from Fate ready in case that went south.
I'm just trying to point out that power alone doesn't win the day against Johnny boy. And just because John isn't at Fate's level of sorcery doesn't mean John couldn't pull the odd win because Fate isn't at his level of guile and trickery. And it's usually those things that make Fate struggle for the win. Example in case would be Fate's battle with the Lord of Chaos and Aztec god Totec (immortal Dr Fate 1985). Totec's plan was to have Fate defeat himself by giving the jealousy his wife Inza felt of the fate entity form. In doing so the demon this jealousy formed if Fate destroyed it would kill Inza resulting in Kent no longer being willing host. No host mean no Fate. Fate almost did exactly what Totec wanted but at the crucial moment called the Orb of Nabu and saw what doing so would do. From that instance on the protection of Inza became a prime directive if you will of Fate.
There are other examples of less powered mystics defeating vastly more powerful ones with the "right knowledge" or prep. Sargon defeating Karkul for example in All Star Squadron. Karkul had defeated the Spectre several times and defeated "classic Fate" prior to Sargon getting invovled. Sargon however used a weakness of Karkul's to take him down. In the Phantom Stranger mini in the late 80's he had been depowered and was forced to use the same type of power that John has access to ( the mana all around through invocation and manipulation )yet he defeated powerful Lords of Chaos intent on bringin Earths destruction. John is a better prepper than Sargon and has tricked Stranger before too.
Sheer Power alone doesn't win a magic character battle. it never has. If it did than Dr Strange (classic or otherwise) would have never gotten the better of Dormammu, Shuma-Gorath, never broken the bonds of LT and countless other victories he's had. Fate would have likewise lost many of his battles. Arion would have lost 60% of his because they were during periods he was depowered having burned out his power facing some cataclysm or another a few issues earlier. Like wise John Constatnine would have lost to every single demon he's demon he's beaten aver the life of his publication. Sargon would have lost many of his battles. Daimon Hellstrom would have lost almost every battle he had prior to having attained the full power of Hell's ruler. Lady Blaze and her brother would never have beaten their father Shazam. Sargon would not have bested Kulak, Spectre in early GA appearances would not have beaten Zor, Dr Druid would have been a joke to almost every mystic he faced, as would have been Dr Occult.
Wins in magic come down not to the power but the cunning with which it's applied. All magic users can simply entreat greater power and with enough time build the power through spells needed to match the greater powered opponent. It comes down to whether they can occupy or distract that more powerful opponent while they build that power or can they do so in the preparation before battle. No one is better at misdirection or having the right spell invocation ready IMO than John. Fate, and Strange would be pretty close behind. John as a rule does not invoke power. he hates the arrogance with which these "higher" beings think they can lord it over mere mortals and loves to show them that it can be thrown back at them. He does however have no problem using the rules of these very powers against themselves.
Frankly with a weeks prep (if it was classic Fate) Johnny would work his trade and somehow acquire the soul or hold the safety of Inza Nelson (if it was another fate whatever soul would matter to them as much, Fury for hector, etc) and hold that as a carrot to keep Fate in line (if hiding didn't work).
I would Just like to point out that while Fate is vastly more powerful than Constantine. Using guile and cunning John has defeated/beaten characters as or MORE powerful.
Such as
Unless your all telling me Fate is SOOO much more powerful than the presence.
that wasn't the presence, you can tell by the fact that he keeps referring to the presence in the third perosn
I would Just like to point out that while Fate is vastly more powerful than Constantine. Using guile and cunning John has defeated/beaten characters as or MORE powerful.
Such as
Unless your all telling me Fate is SOOO much more powerful than the presence.
that wasn't the presence, you can tell by the fact that he keeps referring to the presence in the third perosn
@artyom: @bobthened: That was. But all he did was convince the presence who split off his wrathful and evil sides to save someone he already wants to save.
I mean, all he did was threaten someone who can remove him from history, restore everything, or just destroy him and remake another one. John could have died many times when he was with dream. Think what dreams omniscient master could do with his omnipotence.
@artyom: @bobthened: That was. But all he did was convince the presence who split off his wrathful and evil sides to save someone he already wants to save.
I mean, all he did was threaten someone who can remove him from history, restore everything, or just destroy him and remake another one. John could have died many times when he was with dream. Think what dreams omniscient master could do with his omnipotence.
@firestormfate1919: Except that wasn't really John, it was a major demon, a favorite of the devil, who comes and claims Kent's soul, who curses John Constantine for tricking him.
Or it was Kent's mind controlled family member who has been magically disguised, and Kent goes mad and kills himself over the guilt.
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