Dormammu/Cyttorak/Surtur vs Shuma-Gorath

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Soratoumiga

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Shuma-Gorath

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  • Standard 616 versions, non-amped, but at full power
  • Takes place in a neutral realm
  • Bloodlusted/Morals off
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Supermanthor

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#2  Edited By Supermanthor

that pic of shuma stomps CV and all fiction let alone these 3

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MorbusGrav

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Shuma solos them.

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Rac95

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Shuma stomps simply through style

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deactivated-5d5789e65ebaa

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Shuma solos

awesome pic of him btw

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eri123

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Shuma

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Namebk

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#8  Edited By Namebk

Shuma

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green_skaar

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That pic...

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Rac95

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Andromeda101

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#11  Edited By Andromeda101

Shuma-Gorath eats them. Aaron already established that Shuma is superior to Dormammu and even Waid seems to believe so since Shuma apparently will be the next big bag in his storyline after Galactusmmu. Cyttorak these days isn't that much more powerful than even Satannish going by statements and Surtur is also a non-factor.

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Yamiyodare

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#13 Yamiyodare  Online

Probably Shuma in a good fight. Inside its real, Shuma wins easy, it is omnipresent.

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CaptainSweatpan

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What are Shumas feats?

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deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c

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I turned Shuma when I saw punked Kaluu do the scaling.

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Andromeda101

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#16  Edited By Andromeda101

@captainsweatpan said:

What are Shumas feats?

He created and later beat down a Many Angled-One, entities more powerful than The Galactus Engine, Genesis/Sis-Neg even preferred to seal him away, carefully while trying to not alarm Gorath than to fight him directly because would waste his energy...It doesn't even matter if would be only a fraction either way, Genesis already had acquired the power of an ultimate/absolute God above everyone in existence and was basically TOAA at said point of his time, Eternity himself already said everything in all creation/realities(Including himself) is ruled by Genesis/Sise-Neg and is inconsequential when compared to same(Except Shuma, it seems)...Just so you know, I'm using that scan with Eternity because BOTH COMICS(Marvel Premiere#14 where Sise-Neg become God/Genesis and the Eternity one from Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic #13) were written by THE SAME PERSON(Steve Englehart) and the dates of their publication are very close on top of all(With only two years after Marvel Premiere), so it's clear the God mentioned by Eternity is Genesis, especially because Englehart himself called/alluded Sise-Neg being that God at the beginning of the storyline. It took Tiger God also helped by the New Avengers just to beat a small fraction of him, something quite impressive when Tiger God's power was responsible for allowing Black Panther to enter in the realm of the abstracts and become one. Shuma was even shown on-panel holding-off the combined attack of almost all the Elders of the Universe, one of them being the In-Betweener himself. Shuma was also shown to be the ONLY ENTITY aside from Dormammu(Who had to bargain his way out) who survived the Empirikul and their Super Science. They wiped out almost all magic and the annual with Clea showed they also went to other dimensions.

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CaptainSweatpan

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Six-Deuce

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Eh, Shuma is the most powerful here undoubtedly...but things must have changed in the last few years if Shuma solos all three.

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Cergic

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As always, i back up Shuma

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Six-Deuce

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@andromeda101: where in the scan you provided does it state no other entity survived the empirikul? It just shows Dormy stating he sent them to Shuma. There are entities I assume remained untouched by empirikul crusade. Chthon for instance

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Andromeda101

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#21  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce said:

where in the scan you provided does it state no other entity survived the empirikul? It just shows Dormy stating he sent them to Shuma. There are entities I assume remained untouched by empirikul crusade. Chthon for instance

Chthon definitely didn't get out untouched if Wanda's magic was also affected and killed. That's what the Empirikul did, they killed all magic and their sources(Or at least most of it).

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TakenStew22

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Shuma wins by that picture alone.

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Soratoumiga

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#23  Edited By Soratoumiga

@andromeda101: Off-topic, but how do you think Chthon/HoM Wanda would fare against Shuma-Gorath?

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JimJaspers20675

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Jim jaspers could take on Shuma, even in his realm!

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deactivated-5d59ee082aecf

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Gonna go with shuma

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Six-Deuce

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@andromeda101: is there anything explicitly stating all entities were destroyed? Even the Vishanti would be anecdotal evidence though Chthon is above them...Wanda being effected isnt really good evidence as she is only a fraction of his power and that is ignoring the wonky chaos wave retcons. I am not trying to get sidetracked but rather get a clearer understanding of where Shuma is now. If it was explicitly stated he is the only entity to survive then that gives me good info.

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Evil-Incarnate

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Somebody’s gonna get tentacled ?

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Darth_Nimrod

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Leaning towards Shuma-Gorath.

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destinyman75

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Shuma is well above he should win here..Eater of universes FTW with tenticals

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Andromeda101

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#30  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce: is there anything explicitly stating all entities were destroyed?

It's a basic logic and conclusion, really. Where do you even think magic comes from? All sorcerers/witches/mages and so on lost their magic and couldn't call upon the entities anymore after the Empirkul's crusade to eradicate all magic, therefore their source was wiped out. You can't get more simple than that. It's already been proved they came for the mystical entities as shown with Dormammu, or do you now think that among all choices in the multiverse of dimensions they decided to specifically attack him and him only? Magic slowly came back to life again, so at least we know they weren't destroyed permanently, but they were still wiped out initially/momentarily.

Even the Vishanti would be anecdotal evidence though Chthon is above them

Sorry to say this, but your argument and logic are already fundamentally wrong by even assuming that Chthon is above The Vishanti in the first place, which's far from true. Regardless, who said they weren't also victims to the Empirikul? Because based on everything, I say they were as well.

Wanda being effected isnt really good evidence as she is only a fraction of his power and that is ignoring the wonky chaos wave retcons.

You either misinterpreted what I said or completely missed the point, friend. It's not solely about Wanda being affected, but rather her power-source. They didn't cut out her from the magic...They cut the magic itself from her by no less than eliminating it, because that's exactly what the Empirikul does and did. The same thing happened with Strange, Magik, Voodoo and all the others.

I am not trying to get sidetracked but rather get a clearer understanding of where Shuma is now. If it was explicitly stated he is the only entity to survive then that gives me good info.

Once again, it's just read the storyline and connect the dots. The entire after-affects of Aaron's LDoM wouldn't have happened if the entities weren't wiped out or at least incapacitated for a period of time.

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Andromeda101

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@soratoumiga said:

Off-topic, but how do you think Chthon/HoM Wanda would fare against Shuma-Gorath?

HoM Wanda wins, Chthon gets destroyed.

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Six-Deuce

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@andromeda101: you have reacted with hostility towards a simple enough question. It is not simple logic to say certain practitioners could not use magic ipso facto all "magical" entities other than Shuma were destroyed. Maybe they were and maybe they were not...it is speculation. We will have to disagree about Chthon's power level but it is beside the point...I could have just as easily used a different example ala Abraxus or something. It does seem to be the case from looking at your scans that you have heavily interpreted them towards a non-explicit conclusion....you are welcome to it. My takeaway is Dormammu survived by pointing them at Shuma, but other entities on par with Shuma (or where he/they were at the time) could well have survived as well.

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Andromeda101

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#33  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce: you have reacted with hostility towards a simple enough question. It is not simple logic to say certain practitioners could not use magic ipso facto all "magical" entities other than Shuma were destroyed.Maybe they were and maybe they were not...it is speculation.

And you once again either misinterpreted my words if actually thinks that because we must have very different takes on what means being hostile or perhaps is just being oversensitive now like happened before in another debate. Second, I think you're aware that saying something isn't true without giving a valid explanation is far from a coherent argument when I already explained to you how magic works in the MU, already gave a solid example of the Empirkul coming from the mystical entities and already explained why they need to have been wiped out for the after-effects of the arc to even happen. Your entire reasoning(Which I must add that doesn't have single objective evidence to back it up) would come to contradict so much established info that would only make sense in the head of someone who hasn't read either the storyline or the ramifications that came after it. And yes, I don't lie that still is ultimately and simply speculation on my part, but guess what? It's at least backed up by the comics and what has been revealed to the readers.

I could have just as easily used a different example ala Abraxus or something. It does seem to be the case from looking at your scans that you have heavily interpreted them towards a non-explicit conclusion....you are welcome to it. My takeaway is Dormammu survived by pointing them at Shuma, but other entities on par with Shuma (or where he/they were at the time) could well have survived as well.

And the same logic would still apply to it regardless, I don't see what's so difficult to understand that if we're talking about the class of Principalities invoked by Earth's mystical practitioners, they've been affected and hunt down by the Empirikul. And while I'm keen to admit that is possible for entities on-par with Shuma to have survived, we already know that isn't most likely the case with Chthon given of what happened with Maximoff's mystical powers. You're free to think whatever you want anyway, I'm done with this.

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jrupert1

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#34  Edited By jrupert1

@six-deuce said:

@andromeda101: you have reacted with hostility towards a simple enough question. It is not simple logic to say certain practitioners could not use magic ipso facto all "magical" entities other than Shuma were destroyed. Maybe they were and maybe they were not...it is speculation. We will have to disagree about Chthon's power level but it is beside the point...I could have just as easily used a different example ala Abraxus or something. It does seem to be the case from looking at your scans that you have heavily interpreted them towards a non-explicit conclusion....you are welcome to it. My takeaway is Dormammu survived by pointing them at Shuma, but other entities on par with Shuma (or where he/they were at the time) could well have survived as well.

But the magic was only affected if the source was destroyed. Wanda's magic was affected so naturally her source was, well... do you see what @andromeda101 is getting at?

If nothing else why would you disagree about Chthon's power levels? Heck Oshtur alone was described to have the magical power to match her brother... yet she is only one of three of the Vishanti who together are significantly more powerful than the sum of their parts. How does that in any way translate to him even being close to them in power, much less more powerful?

For some in-universe scaling. Strange refers to the attempt of facing any of the Vishanti members in combat to be a laughable concept (even witnessing them battle was incomprehensible to him). And while he is still far outclassed by Chthon in power Strange still managed to cause him pain in his own dimension with a spell cast on reflex (while Strange was still supplementing his power with Catastrophe magic, which while useful wasn't on par with his regularly backed magic). He was then able to replicate the spell when Chthon was trying to cross over into their universe and due to Chthon being vulnerable he had to retreat or it would have destroyed him. Powerful entities are often without most of their power when crossing over. But if Chthon were so powerful as you claim he wouldn't have been that vulnerable. Which is partly why (there are other reasons) it's arguable if Chthon is even as poweful as Dormammu. I mean, a spell channeling the willpower of Victoria Bentley who was used as a gateway to birth Chthon would have destroyed him, not sent him back, or cut him off but destroyed. Dormammu birthed himself on earth and the Elder Godess Gaea needed help to destroy his newborn earth body (in her own realm), and that's all that it did to a vulnerable Dormammu.

As for Shuma-Gorath, Strange couldn't just jump into his dimension, he needed to absorb a massive amount of magical energy (black magic most importantly) before even reaching the lower dimensions near where Shuma-Gorath was (which is still unconfirmed as to whether it was even Shuma's home realm). His journey was stopped early because it was literally killing Kaluu (the prime black magic specialist who rivaled/exceeded the Ancient One) and he could go no further, Strange was affected similarly in Chthon's realm but this was after already making it into his realm and he was able to shield himself and continue. Then Strange had to transcend his usual existence into something completely different before being able to attempt facing him.

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Andromeda101

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@jrupert1: But the magic was only affected if the source was destroyed. Wanda's magic was affected so naturally her source was, well... do you see what @andromeda101 is getting at?

Yup.

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Six-Deuce

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#36  Edited By Six-Deuce

@jrupert1: do you think it is impossible that a source can be interrupted or blocked without the originating entity being killed? It seems a leap to assume "ALL" but Shuma and Dormammu must have been annihilated when it was not stated (at least that has been shown). The evidence presented to bolster the claim that everyone but Shuma was defeated is a scan that doesnt even address the subject indirectly.

As far as Chthon, that was one example I picked when and really has no bearing on my point...it seems I stepped on a pre-argued landmine not stating another cosmic entity but....for fear of being lost in the weeds...I put him over the Vishanti because he has better feats. Eternity described Chthon as a multiversal threat by just his presence being...well, present. I'm sure you recall the instance speaking to Reed after Peitro was possessed with a sliver of his power. Also originally the chaos wave was attributed to his chaos magic, then haphazardly retconned. There is more, but it is just my opinion and completely divorced from my point.

Edit: Chthon's low showings that I have seen have been in regards to his inability to fully habitate in the 616. Shuma and Dormy also have had this plot device used on them by Strange. Also the Demiurge eating his powers.

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Six-Deuce

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@andromeda101: if your wifi were to go out...must that mean the source of the internet was destroyed?

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Andromeda101

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#38  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce: do you think it is impossible that a source can be interrupted or blocked without the originating entity being killed?

But that would go directly against what the Empirikul was doing and their primary objective to eradicate all magic. It's a narrative that doesn't sustain itself and by what's been shown of them, in fact, magic would need to automatically come back at the moment the Empirikul was defeated instead of slowing coming back to life again if were true. They weren't blocking or interrupting anything, their objective was loud and clear to destroy all magic.

It seems a leap to assume "ALL" but Shuma and Dormammu must have been annihilated when it was not stated (at least that has been shown). The evidence presented to bolster the claim that everyone but Shuma was defeated is a scan that doesnt even address the subject indirectly.

Maybe all of them was indeed a stretch, but Chthon is very well within the realm of possibility and more than likely the case.

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Andromeda101

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#39  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce said:

if your wifi were to go out...must that mean the source of the internet was destroyed?

Oh yes...Because I'm sure the intrinsics, functionality and mechanics of otherworld magic in the MU works exactly like a wi-fi, right? And of course, let's also completely ignore the direct intervention of the Empirikul and their objective to indeed eradicate those sources at their core. Honestly, if you don't want to receive harsh replies, then please don't pull retarded crap like that.

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Six-Deuce

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#40  Edited By Six-Deuce

@andromeda101: I accept your concluding statement that all magic entities being wiped out was a stretch, and I do not argue that Chthon may or may not be within thier range...it is definitely arguable that he is. My reason for the post was not to pump Cthon, it was to make certain Shuma was, or was not the only entity that survived the Empirikul. I will pretend the rest of the unnecessary saltiness was not expressed. Have a good one bud.

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Supermanthor

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AnnamalHouse

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@andromeda101:

Some people really wank sise-neg/Genesis.

IMO he was nowhere near as powerful as your trying to claim.

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Andromeda101

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#43  Edited By Andromeda101

@six-deuce said:

I accept your concluding statement that all magic entities being wiped out was a stretch, and I do not argue that Chthon may or may not be within thier range...it is definitely arguable that he is. My reason for the post was not to pump Cthon, it was to make certain Shuma was, or was not the only entity that survived the Empirikul. I will pretend the rest of the unnecessary saltiness was not expressed. Have a good one bud.

I don't think you see the many contradictions here to some of your previous statements, but sure, I also accept your concession.

@annamalhouse said:

Some people really wank sise-neg/Genesis.

IMO he was nowhere near as powerful as your trying to claim.

You can have any opinions and think whatever you want, it's a free world after all, but backing that up as factual with both a coherent argumentation and information is another thing.

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Team 1

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MajinBlackheart

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#45 MajinBlackheart  Moderator

@six-deuce said:

if your wifi were to go out...must that mean the source of the internet was destroyed?

Oh yes...Because I'm sure the intrinsics, functionality and mechanics of otherworld magic in the MU works exactly like a wi-fi, right? And of course, let's also completely ignore the direct intervention of the Empirikul and their objective to indeed eradicate those sources at their core. Honestly, if you don't want to receive harsh replies, then please don't pull retarded crap like that.

C'mon I know you know the language rule.

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Shuma

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AnnamalHouse

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@andromeda101:

Sise-neg wasn't TOAA level or even close to it. In showing a scan from a totally different comic that has nothing to do with comic arc regardless of same writer and time period shows how you are grasping at straws IMO to try and prove your point.

Also being stated he would lose power if he faught SG also shows he's nowhere near true God status. At that point he already did all his absorbing of magical energies IIRC.

Just because he does some ambiguous statements of being god or what not means nothing. Alot people have said the same.

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BreakOfDawn

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Team except if it's the version shown.

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Andromeda101

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#50  Edited By Andromeda101

@annamalhouse: Sise-neg wasn't TOAA level or even close to it. In showing a scan from a totally different comic that has nothing to do with comic arc regardless of same writer and time period shows how you are grasping at straws IMO to try and prove your point.

This is all just your opinion and honestly doesn't have a shred of single objective evidence to back it up, unlike what I presented. What you think or doesn't think is completely irrelevant to me if is solely based on your personal and subjective opinion, especially when I already showed that both comics have a direct relation to each other not simply because were written by the same person and in the same period of time(Which I would say that grasping straws is an attempt to dismiss both of these facts just because you personally don't like and/or believe in them), but because the events of Sise-Neg's ascension were even directly addressed by the writer in the other issue as well, so I now wonder if you actually read both comics or at least paid attention to claim they had nothing do with each other. And please, read my words carefully, I said that Sise-Neg was akin to the TOAA of his time and not that was as powerful or even remotely as powerful as the modern incarnation of the same these days.

Also being stated he would lose power if he faught SG also shows he's nowhere near true God status. At that point he already did all his absorbing of magical energies IIRC.

Just your opinion, which once again, means nothing to me alone. Besides, it's nothing new because even while under other writers such as Starlin, TOAA has shown to have an undefined limit. Different eras, different writers, different rules, different limitations. I also didn't understand your second point, yes, Sise-Neg had already finished absorbing all magic and that's precisely what gave him such status in the first place.

Just because he does some ambiguous statements of being god or what not means nothing. Alot people have said the same.

And this proves to me that you haven't paid even the slightness of attention to my arguments. It's not because Sise-Neg was called a god by just about any random being, but because was specifically referred to as "The God" by nonetheless than Eternity itself. And that's an undeniably big difference.