@nassergrant19: He could just stay in the air spam Awakened powered projectiles at her. She doesn't really have any attacks that could reach him at high altitudes. Plus, even Diamond Jozu who yeeted one of Mihawk's attacks was held down by Doffy's strings. People really underestimate how strong Bound Man is. Luffy never had the chance to use Bound Man against Ulti.
@nassergrant19: He could just stay in the air spam Awakened powered projectiles at her. She doesn't really have any attacks that could reach him at high altitudes. Plus, even Diamond Jozu who yeeted one of Mihawk's attacks was held down by Doffy's strings. People really underestimate how strong Bound Man is. Luffy never had the chance to use Bound Man against Ulti.
This version of Base Luffy was still physicallu superior to Rosa G4 tho…
So I doubt the stings will be too much of an issue.
This version of Base Luffy was still physicallu superior to Rosa G4 tho…
So I doubt the stings will be too much of an issue.
He wasn't actually physically superior to Bound Man. He just had Ryou to somewhat bypass Kaido's durability. Maybe post Conqueror's Infusion you could argue that.
An actually, the fact that Kaido can easily contend with this same version of Luffy in his Gear 4th state (which is normally a massive buff from his base state) is pretty much direct evidence of this.
This version of Base Luffy was still physically superior to Rosa G4 tho…
So I doubt the stings will be too much of an issue.
1) He wasn't actually physically superior to Bound Man. He just had Ryou to somewhat bypass Kaido's durability. Maybe post Conqueror's Infusion you could argue that. An actually, the fact that Kaido can easily contend with this same version of Luffy in his Gear 4th state (which is normally a massive buff from his base state) is pretty much direct evidence of this.
Ryou does increase ones attack/defensive power as you can use it either defensively like a suit of armor or offensively to deal more damage Luffy even says that he thinks he could destroy Kaido's scales if he learned to emit his haki/Ryou as Hyogoro calls it... but it doesn't bypass durability that is a different thing entirely which Hyogoro mentions.
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Luffy learning Internal destruction on top of learning emittion haki in Udon which made his already stronger haki with Ryou (emittion haki) be able to also directly damage Kaido's innards giving Luffy much more power than normal. So yes Luffy with Ryou (emittion haki) does have greater Ap than his Act 1 G4 Boundman self since Boundman Luffy couldn't damage Kaido but a Ryou Luffy should.
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Also as for post Udon base Luffy being stronger than Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy yes that is the case as he has more Ap, is more durable and faster as he can react to a thunder bagua and survive multiple attacks from a base Kaido even though previously he got statued and oneshot from a blitz and a swing from Kaido. Mind you Kaido's Thunder Bagua is him essentially swinging his club while blitzing his opponent in fact from what we know a normal swing from Kaido would also one shot Act 1 Luffy as they said that the power of Kaido's club was what was what oneshot Luffy not the technique just the swing of his club.
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Anyways that'll be all on that front.
OT: Ulti soles with Ulti Headbutt/Ulti Meteor and it's over. Ulti can perceive Post Udon Luffy, combat him, and even do some work against him and while yes admittedly Luffy was in a hurry that doesn't make it any less impressive.
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And that'll be the end of that as Doffy can't deal with someone who can fight someone (post Udon Base Luffy) who's like a couple tiers above Doffy while in Wano. There's a reason Kaido called Doffy weak and that he wasn't part of the Topi Roppo also doesn't help that in Wano like everyone is insanely strong scaling wise.
Ryou does increase ones attack/defensive power as you can use it either defensively like a suit of armor or offensively to deal more damage Luffy even says that he thinks he could destroy Kaido's scales if he learned to emit his haki/Ryou as Hyogoro calls it... but it doesn't bypass durability that is a different thing entirely which Hyogoro mentions.
It's literally the same thing dude. Hyogoro just hasn't fully mastered it like the 9. There are different levels to it.
Ryou is literally cited to be only reason Scarabs can damage Kaido. And it's not because of their raw AP. They had direct training with Oden.
Kinemon is not built like that at all. Obviously internal damage and nothing to do with AP.
Stop being ridiculous. Luffy specifically uses the word "Ryou" when practicing on Kaido's minions in Onigashima. It's the same thing just different stages.
Boundman self since Boundman Luffy couldn't damage Kaido but a Ryou Luffy should
No duh. Luffy didn't know how to damage internally like Stage 2 Ryou before.
Also as for post Udon base Luffy being stronger than Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy yes that is the case as he has more Ap,
No he is not. Otherwise he would have just overpowered Ulti. He hadn't even fully mastered Ryou beginning of Onigashima. Clear night and day difference between Luffy vs Kaido RD2 Roof Top compared to RD1 Roof Top.
, is more durable and faster as he can react to a thunder bagua and survive multiple attacks from a base Kaido even though previously he got statued and oneshot from a blitz and a swing from Kaido. Mind you Kaido's Thunder Bagua is him essentially swinging his club while blitzing his opponent in fact from what we know a normal swing from Kaido would also one shot Act 1 Luffy as they said that the power of Kaido's club was what was what oneshot Luffy not the technique just the swing of his club.
Luffy has better Haki at the point. (Also invisible armor which he is more proficient at) He could last longer because he was more skilled an actually had back up from Law, Zoro, Kid and Killer. Luffy was one shot multiple times during the Onigashima fight when he was actually hit cleanly just like the first fight. Not sure what you are talking about. lol
OT: Ulti soles with Ulti Headbutt/Ulti Meteor and it's over. Ulti can perceive Post Udon Luffy, combat him, and even do some work against him and while yes admittedly Luffy was in a hurry that doesn't make it any less impressive.
Nope. Can't reach Doffy in the sky and simply gets spammed on by Awakened Powered StrIngs which is strong enough to damage Gear 4th.
And that'll be the end of that as Doffy can't deal with someone who can fight someone (post Udon Base Luffy) who's like a couple tiers above Doffy while in Wano. There's a reason Kaido called Doffy weak and that he wasn't part of the Topi Roppo also doesn't help that in Wano like everyone is insanely strong scaling wise.
Again. Too much gassing and over scaling. Physical strength is not the end all be all for One PIece battles. Otherwise, Diamond Jozu would low dif Doffy. Ulti is damn sure not stronger then Diamond Jozu.
@wushu59: Do you never give up I have already countered like every point you've made...
And using the panel of Kaido saying "Why does it hurt, why do their blades pierce me, do they use his Ryou too?!" is one of the most utterly disingenuous thing I've ever seen as we literally get clarification on this that they don't have such haki by Kaido himself as he realized that they don't have such haki and he was over reacting... since you know he has Oden PTSD...
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In fact they all say to pierce his hide... Wushu your like just literally just wrong they don't have internal destruction. Since if the did why would it matter that they can cut his hide since they would be able to bypass it... but they can't since they don't have the Internal Destruction level of haki.
Then you have Luffy saying that with Ryou he should be able to destroy Kaido's hide... normal Ryou not Internal Destruction just normal Ryou/Emittion Haki which can increase his power so he could destroy Kaido's scales.
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As such since Act 1 couldn't damage Kaido yet a Ryou amped Luffy should that means base post Udon Luffy has higher Ap than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy self... it's not that hard AT ALL.
Then we also know that Ryou buffs defense as that was how Luffy could survive Big mom's punch in base in Udon (Which could defeat Queen in two shots, mind you Queen of which would stomp base Udon Luffy) and later of which post Udon Base Luffy could later survive multiple hits from Kaido even though normally he would've been oneshot just from a normal swing. So we know base post Udon Luffy has better durability than Act 1 G4 Boundman as well.
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Then for speed Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy gets statued from a thunder bagua yet a base post Udon Luffy can react to it.
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So Post Udon Base Luffy is MUCH stronger than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy.
Also just stop trying to downplay Kinemon he can cut Kaido, he can take hits and not got oneshot and he can react to Kaido's swings which at times could even blitz Post Udon Base Luffy which as I said is superior to his Act 1 G4 Boundman self.
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Like Wushu I don't care what Kinemon thought of this or that before or that he was fodder to Doffy in Dressrosa that literally doesn't matter in the least as current Wano Raid Kinemon who mind you is insanely stronger than he was before (its a freaking shonen get over it) with the feats he has would oneshot Doffy.
This one feat of Kinemon using a flying slice which went on to slice Kaido would bisect Doffy...
That'll be all considering that as if you don't concede on this topic I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Anyways back to Ulti since Page 1 isn't even needed in this fight.
Ulti can go invisible to nami and ussop and jump so hard and so far she effectively one shotting Komachiyo after flinging herself very hard (and far showcasing her jumping ability).
Then Ulti can also perceive, combat, and catch Post Udon Base Luffy who in my previous post of #14 is superior than his Act 1 G4 Boundman self who is much stronger than the G4 Boundman Doffy faced.
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So Ulti uses Ulti Meteor/Headbutt and flings herself so fast and so hard she effective flies and smashes into Doffy so hard he gets oneshot... game over.
Do you never give up I have already countered like every point you've made...
You have done terrible and lousy job at breaking down why Kinemon would fodderize Dolfamingo. Haven't brought up a single good reason to how Ulti even reaches Doffy in the air, etc.
In fact they all say topiercehis hide... Wushu your like just literally just wrong they don't have internal destruction. Since if the did why would it matter that they can cut his hide since they would be able to bypass it... but they can't since they don't have the Internal Destruction level of haki.
Has it ever occurred to you that Kaido's hide is so dense that their are layers to it? Even with internal damage which is what Stage 2 Ryou is, 9 Retainers are not going to pernitrate all the way through. But nope. You like to keep make believeing that Kinemon is stronger than he really is. It's clearly not raw AP.
As such since Act 1 couldn't damage Kaido yet a Ryou amped Luffy should that means base post Udon Luffy has higher Ap than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy self... it's not that hard AT ALL.
Duh. He has Ryou the 2nd fight. Why do you keep repeating this? Not relevant to AP.
Then we also know that Ryou buffs defense as that was how Luffy could survive Big mom's punch in base
Yes. Blocking / clashing with Ryou neutralizes damage. But if he doesn't use it, he still taking the same amount of dmage. Luffy was still knocked out multiple times even with Super Nova's help.
Then for speed Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy gets statued from a thunder bagua yet a base post Udon Luffy can react to it.
He ran into Kaido's attack the first time. You are insulating that Luffy didn't have help and could speed blitz Kaido with his Gears the 2nd fight? Because that's not what happen. He literally says Kaido is too fast even when using Future Sight.
So Post Udon Base Luffy is MUCH stronger than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy.
Post Conqueror's Infusion he is. Base form beginning of Onigashima, no. Ulti is not manhandling Bound Man in any capacity. Again,Bound Man already pressed unfocused Katakuri with his strength who has higher bounty then Jack. Ulti is not phsyically stronger then Jack, let alone Bound Man.
Also just stop trying to downplay Kinemon he can cut Kaido,
Only with Ryou. Not with raw AP.
he can take hits and not got oneshot and he can react to Kaido's swings which at times could even blitz Post Udon Base Luffy which as I said is superior to his Act 1 G4 Boundman self.
Kaido can't one shot Kinemon now? What is this? Kinemon didn't go full foced into Kaido's Thunder Bauga like an idiot.
Again, ignoring stuff literally stated in Wano. Kinemon has not changed.
This one feat of Kinemon using a flying slice which went on to slice Kaido would bisect Doffy...
Blast Breathe is a fire based attack which Kinemon's move specifically renders. That does nothing to Doffy
Ulti can go invisible to nami
Nami is relevant to Doffy in speed how?
and ussop and jump so hard and so far she effectively one shotting Komachiyo after flinging herself very hard (and far showcasing her jumping ability).
Her max jump isn't where close to Doffy's max flight. He can still lands attacks on her where she can't hope to reach him.
So Ulti uses Ulti Meteor/Headbutt and flings herself so fast and so hard she effective flies and smashes into Doffy so hard he gets oneshot... game over.
If Doffy was an idiot who sticked with grounded melee maybe. But that is not a reality.
As a matter of fact, we have evidence Kaido's hides are just that dense. Kaido can shrug off Law's Gamma Knife which is clearly an internal attack. Kinemon being able to sting Kaido with raw AP is pure nonsense. Clearly has Stage 2 Ryou through training with Oden.
Doflamingo is highly experienced in aerial combat. Neither Ulti nor Page One have anything that we know of in their arsenal to deal with aerial opponents.
He's also an unofficial 4th commander in Kaido's crew (Joker) so he's plenty strong enough to fight any of the tobi roppo 1v1 and have a good chance of winning.
In this 1v2, Doflamingo just needs to keep his distance, whittle them down with ranged attacks and he'll eventually come out on top after a long fight.
Doffy's biggest win condition here is the bird cage, add to that he's an awakened paramecia user with flight and can create a clone via Black Knight. Team would have a limited time to defeat Doffy who is plenty durable with outstanding endurance.
1) Has it ever occurred to you that Kaido's hide is so dense that their are layers to it? Even with internal damage which is what Stage 2 Ryou is, 9 Retainers are not going to pernitrate all the way through. But nope. You like to keep make believing that Kinemon is stronger than he really is. It's clearly not raw AP.
Has it ever occured... that's headcanon... wow now that's the end of that. And yes if Kinemon can damage Kaido he does have more Ap than Act 1 G4 Boundman that's how scaling works... and nothing shows that Kinemon can't be that strong in fact there's more than a dozen people that are stronger than Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy during the Raid so why couldn't he.
2) "As such since Act 1 couldn't damage Kaido yet a Ryou amped Luffy should that means base post Udon Luffy has higher Ap than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy self... it's not that hard AT ALL." Your Response: Duh. He has Ryou the 2nd fight. Why do you keep repeating this? Not relevant to AP.
I keep repeating it because I'm saying that Ryou (emittion haki) increase Ap and I'm saying that the Scabbards have that haki not the next level of Internal Destruction which would bypass Kaido's durability like how Rooftop Luffy bypassed Kaido's durability.
We literally see the scabbards cutting Kaido and saying to pierce his hide which means they don't have means to bypass it. Like just look at these two pages below and STILL tell me that the Scabbards have Internal Destruction as we VERY CLEARLY see the scabbards want to pierce Kaido's hide and damage him then in CONTRAST we see Kaido saying to Luffy and such who deal Internal damage that they have means to counter his durability then Killer saying he'll bypass the hide to deal internal damage.
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Like I honestly don't know what to tell you after this post if you continue to harp on saying that the Scabbards have Internal Destruction when it's very clear that they don't.
3) "Then for speed Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy gets statued from a thunder bagua yet a base post Udon Luffy can react to it." Your Response: He ran into Kaido's attack the first time. You are insulating that Luffy didn't have help and could speed blitz Kaido with his Gears the 2nd fight? Because that's not what happen. He literally says Kaido is too fast even when using Future Sight.
What are you talking about I'm not insinuating anything I'm literally just saying that Post Udon Base Luffy was faster than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Self since he could dodge an attack he got previously statued by of which Kaido even notes and even says that he's putting up a decent fight since you know he wasn't layed out on the floor almost dead.
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Also ran into his Kaido's attack the first time? What are you talking about as manga wise G4 Luffy is literally just bouncing there as Kaido stood up then they looked each other in the eyes and Kaido statued and oneshot Luffy.
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So what are you talking about when you say Luffy ran into Kaido's attack... that didn't happen as Kaido just blitzes past him.
4) "So Post Udon Base Luffy is MUCH stronger than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy." Your Response: Post Conqueror's Infusion he is. Base form beginning of Onigashima, no. Ulti is not manhandling Boundman in any capacity. Again, Boundman already pressed unfocused Katakuri with his strength who has higher bounty then Jack. Ulti is not physically stronger then Jack, let alone Boundman.
Haha no it wasn't just after his conqueror's infusion, Post Udon Base Luffy is much stronger than his Act 1 G4 Boundman self with direct feats.
Ulti's not manhandling post Udon Boundman but Act 1 and WCI and such yeah she could though as to say manhandle... I wouldn't say manhandle, get the better of Is what I would say probaly.
Oh no not the superior bounty I mean by that logic I guess King and Queen are still stronger than Sanji and Zoro since they have a higher bounty. Using the higher bounty only works for those who haven't shown much feats and need the portrayal boost to showcase superiority and such.
Also never said Ulti is physically stronger than Jack though I do think if Jack was in a headbutt contest against Ulti he'd be worried but that's about it.
5) "Also just stop trying to downplay Kinemon he can cut Kaido" Your Response: Only with Ryou. Not with raw AP.
Ryou (Emittion haki) is Ap. I already showed this in that it just increase your Ap (and durability). Internal Destruction is something else entirely as it's a different level of Haki a step further which none besides like Rayleigh and Luffy have explicitly showcased (destroying the slave collars).
Luffy even says if he learns Ryou (emittion haki) it would make him be able to destroy Kaido's scales.
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6) "he can take hits and not got oneshot and he can react to Kaido's swings which at times could even blitz Post Udon Base Luffy which as I said is superior to his Act 1 G4 Boundman self." Your Response: Kaido can't one shot Kinemon now? What is this? Kinemon didn't go full force into Kaido's Thunder Bauga like an idiot.
Never said Kaido can't oneshot Kinemon, just said he can't oneshot Kinemon with normal swings in base form since Kaido couldn't oneshot Kinemon with normal swings in base form... it was literally an observation of a feat.
7) Again, ignoring stuff literally stated in Wano. Kinemon has not changed.
Okay first off Ashura hasn't seen Kinemon in ever and right now hasn't a clue to the journey Kinemon has gone through. Second we know this not to be the truth as Kinemon has grown SIGNIFICANTLY stronger since then. Thirdly this is before Wano Raid and they had time to train afterwards. And fourthly the biggest of all... why you leaving out the rest of the page... d-does it say something you might not l-l-like... of course it does at least show the whole page man.
They literally play it off as a joke as Ashura goes on to be like "Ain't that right dog" and blah blah blah then Kinemon's like you best not hold US back. Their conversation was essentially them both saying "your too young" and "your too old" but I don't know why I'm trying to explain self evident words in a panel I literally just posted...
8) This one feat of Kinemon using a flying slice which went on to slice Kaido would bisect Doffy... Your Response: Blast Breathe is a fire based attack which Kinemon's move specifically renders. That does nothing to Doffy
Did you read the scan... It's a flying slice it cut Kaido's Blast Breath then proceeded to cut Kaido on the cheek there's even a "slice!" effect with it.
9) "Ulti can go invisible to nami." Your Response: Nami is relevant to Doffy in speed how?
Doffy to my knowledge never went invisible to Nami's perceptions in Dressrosa... Not that it matters that much since Nami in Wano can perceive people faster than Doffy yet can't
10) "jump so hard and so far she effectively one shotting Komachiyo after flinging herself very hard (and far showcasing her jumping ability). " Your Response: Her max jump isn't where close to Doffy's max flight. He can still lands attacks on her where she can't hope to reach him. AND If Doffy was an idiot who sticked with grounded melee maybe. But that is not a reality.
What was he doing against base Luffy and Law on the rooftop oh yeah engaging in melee combat what did he try to do even against G4 Boundman oh yeah engaging in melee combat in fact Doffy literally chose to meet G4 Boundman Luffy in the sky, face to face even though he coulda stayed at a distance and just sent his attack upwards anyways.
11) As a matter of fact, we have evidence Kaido's hides are just that dense. Kaido can shrug off Law's Gamma Knife which is clearly an internal attack.
No, Kaido literally just tanks Gamma Knife straight to the heart and Kaido has been shown to shrug off plenty of internal attacks from Killer, Law, and Luffy especially. There's no "Kaido's hide is just that dense." Kaido literally says they have ways around his durability... then Killer goes on to say he's going to attack Kaido internally to damage him...
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Why do I have to explain this to you, if you just remembered what happened in the manga instead I wouldn't be having this problem.
12) Kinemon being able to sting Kaido with raw AP is pure nonsense. Clearly has Stage 2 Ryou through training with Oden.
All of the scabbards are capable of damaging and cuttingthrough Kaido's scales. In fact as I have said Kinemon using a flying slice can split Kaido's Boro Breath and proceed to cut him enough to draw blood.
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All of them as I said only ever talk about cutting Kaido's hide not bypassing it not nothing they only say to cut his hide. And as I have said Kaido even says they cannot cut deep enough (shallow) to open his scar showing that they are in fact cutting and not doing internal damage.
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Anyways that'll be all and honestly this'll be my probably like last post on this subject if you keep on saying that the scabbards have Internal destruction.
That's literally what you are doing by saying Kinemon has enough AP to damage Kaido. Despite Oda making it ABUNDATLEY CLEAR Kinemon is not built like that. Just like you also head canon scale Flower Boss to be on the same level of Ryou vs Nine people who lived and trained with Oden.
Kaido specially mentions Scabbards using Ryou to why they can penetrate his skin. I posted this scan several times already. Shouldn't have to do again. Once again, Oda could not make this any more clear.
Kinemon can't be that strong in fact there's more than a dozen people that are stronger than Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy during the Raid so why couldn't he.
He had Ryou even before Punk Hazard.
"As such since Act 1 couldn't damage Kaido yet a Ryou amped Luffy should that means base post Udon Luffy has higher Ap than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy self... it's not that hard AT ALL." Your Response:Duh. He has Ryou the 2nd fight. Why do you keep repeating this? Not relevant to AP.
Yes. Again, DUH. Not relevant to AP.
I keep repeating it because I'm saying that Ryou (emittion haki) increase Ap and I'm saying that the
Based on your bad interpterion skills.
Scabbards have that haki not the next level of Internal Destruction which would bypass Kaido's durability
............................
Seriously....Just stop.
Oda can not make this ANY more clear.
We literally see the scabbards cutting Kaido and saying to pierce his hide which means they don't have means to bypass it.
???? Bro.... Do you even know what pierce means?
They are literally bypassing durability of his hide which they couldn't do otherwise without Ryou.
Killer saying he'll bypass the hide to deal internal damage.
Same shit dude.
What are you talking about I'm not insinuating anything I'm literally just saying that Post Udon Base Luffy was faster than his Act 1 G4 Boundman Self since he could dodge an attack he got previously statued by of which Kaido even notes and even says that he's putting up a decent fight since you know he wasn't layed out on the floor almost dead.
Multiple things wrong this.
Kaido is not a good measuring stick for speed because he allows people to attack him for free. Kaido even has Future Sight and opts not to use it.
Beginning pf Post Base Udon Luffy DOES NOT give Kaido a decent fight by himself at ALL. You constantly keep ignoring he has back up from Law, Killer, Zoro and Kid. You CONSTATLY keep ignoring he was still knocked about multiple times still when hit cleanly just like the first fight.
Again, Luffy charged into Kaido's Thunder Bauga the first fight any way. You actually see a close up of Luffy's face on the bottom left hand corner in charging mode before he gets hit the next page. Anime makes this very clear.
Luffy could barley dodge a holding back Base Kaido even while using Future Sight. Like what are you talking about???
Kaido is once again not a good measuring stick for speed because he can literally keep up with Gear 5 in speed. He adjust according depending on the opponent. He clearly loves fighting. If we go by your logic, Luffy should have blitzed Kaido in Gear 4.
Also ran into his Kaido's attack the first time? What are you talking about as manga wise G4 Luffy is literally just bouncing there as Kaido stood up then they looked each other in the eyes and Kaido statued and oneshot Luffy.
Bottom left hand corner before he gets hit, clearly charging Kaido. Anime makes this more clear as well. Even if you think Luffy didn't move this isn't relevant as Kaido is not a good measuring stick for speed as he can keep up with Gear 5 any way.
Haha no it wasn't just after his conqueror's infusion, Post Udon Base Luffy is much stronger than his Act 1 G4 Boundman self with direct feats.
No he isn't. This is completely baseless. Luffy being about to slightly damage Kaido with a special form of Haki which meant to bypass outer durability does not equate to higher AP or raw out put then Bound Man. Show me a single feat from Base Luffy post Udon before Conqueror's Infusion that is remotely on the same level of even Dressrosa KKG.
"Haha no" Isn't an argument.
Ulti's not manhandling post Udon Boundman but Act 1 and WCI and such yeah she could though as to say manhandle... I wouldn't say manhandle, get the better of Is what I would say probaly.
Based on absolutely nothing. And don't post that meaningless scan with Kaido knocking out Luffy either. Ulti was knocked out cold by Base Yamato's Thunder Bauga (which is much weaker than Kaido's) for several minutes.
Oh no not the superior bounty I mean by that logic I guess King and Queen are still stronger than Sanji and Zoro since they have a higher bounty. Using the higher bounty only works for those who haven't shown much feats and need the portrayal boost to showcase superiority and such.
Not just bounty. Feats. Jack factually doesn't have any feats on the level of Dressrosa KKG onto Dolfamingo.
Ryou (Emittion haki) is Ap. I already showed this in that it just increase your Ap (and durability). Internal Destruction is something else entirely as it's a different level of Haki a step further which none besides like Rayleigh and Luffy have explicitly showcased (destroying the slave collars).
Luffy even says if he learns Ryou (emittion haki) it would make him be able to destroy Kaido's scales
This literally isn't anything different from what the Scabbards were doing.
Never said Kaido can't oneshot Kinemon, just said he can't oneshot Kinemon with normal swings in base form since Kaido couldn't oneshot Kinemon with normal swings in base form... it was literally an observation of a feat.
Kaido didn't one shot Luffy with a casual shot the first time. He one shot him with Thunder Baiga. And yes, Kaido 100% can one shot Kinemon with a casual shot if he really wanted to. Unless you think Kinemon is tanking a Gear 5 punch. Kaido also adjust accordingly. This is why he isn't a good measuring stick. He also adjust accordingly to have fun.
Also, you went on this pointless tangent about amnesia Big Mom without fully thinking about what you were saying. So if Big Mom can knock out Queen without Haki (according to you) but Kinemon can tank casual Haki strikes from Kaido (again, according to you) Then that means you think Kinemon has better durability then Queen. Which we know is complete nonsense.
Okay first off Ashura hasn't seen Kinemon in ever and right now hasn't a clue to the journey Kinemon has gone through.
Way to ignore Oda's CLEAR cut portrayal. I believe I already posted all of Neko Inu, Ashura and Denjiro feats which actually prove they are a separate tier from the rest. I even posted a bunch of Kinemon's feats. But you flat out ignored my post. You also tried to use Kinemon's Flame Rend move on Blast Breathe which is just a Luffy / Enel situation as a way to wank Kinemon stornger then he actually is.
Second we know this not to be the truth as Kinemon has grown SIGNIFICANTLY stronger since then.
Based on what? He has always had Ryou. Even before Punk Hazard.
Thirdly this is before Wano Raid and they had time to train afterwards.
Not enough time. Like what? A day? Ashura used the word 20 years and you try to equate Kinemon training for day to that. lol
And fourthly the biggest of all... why you leaving out the rest of the page... d-does it say something you might not l-l-like... of course it does at least show the whole page man.
The rest of the page literally doesn't change anything. Oda made is point clear if the feats weren't already clear enough.
They literally play it off as a joke as Ashura goes on to be like "Ain't that right dog" and blah blah blah then Kinemon's like you best not hold US back.
Okay? That doesn't make Ashura's statement any less true. Dog even reaffirms his statement by saying "He makes a good point"
Kinemon's prior feats compared to theirs already made this evident. Kinemon saying "you best not hold us back" is just him standing up for himself. Doesn't make the statement any less true. lol. He even played along when Denjiro thought he outplayed Orochi with harbor bombings. That's like Kinemon's gag. He is a comedic character. He's my favorite character from the 9 in terms of the story but he clearly one the weakest in the group.
Their conversation was essentially them both saying "your too young" and "your too old" but I don't know why I'm trying to explain self evident words in a panel I literally just posted...
Uhhhhhhh..... No? It's literally saying Ashura Doji became stronger over the 20 years. And we already know Neko and Inu scale to Ashura in their base forms now which they didn't before 20 years ago.
Did you read the scan... It's a flying slice it cut Kaido's Blast Breath
Yes. Because Blast Breathe is made of fire.
then proceeded to cut Kaido on the cheek there's even a "slice!" effect with it.
Yes. Because Kinemon has Ryou. He can penetrate Kaido's scales which he wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
Doffy to my knowledge never went invisible to Nami's perceptions in Dressrosa...
....................... Oda never put Nami in a situation with Doflamingo because he obviously does not want Nami to die and actually cares about Doffy as a villain long term, unlike Ulti.
Doflamingo was also never tagged by Usopp like Ulti was.
10) "jump so hard and so far she effectively one shotting Komachiyo after flinging herself very hard (and far showcasing her jumping ability). " Your Response: Her max jump isn't where close to Doffy's max flight. He can still lands attacks on her where she can't hope to reach him. AND If Doffy was an idiot who sticked with grounded melee maybe. But that is not a reality.
Yes. Doffy's max flight is above Ulti's max jump. And you have to give a single good reason to how to she wins when he is fighting with max capabilities of his entire move set. You also constantly overlook the massive intelligence difference.
What was he doing against base Luffy and Law on the rooftop oh yeah engaging in melee combat
And? Doflamingo was physically superior to Dressrosa Law and non Gear 4 Luffy. Why wouldn't he? He was legit having fun.
what did he try to do even against G4 Boundman oh yeah engaging in melee combat in fact Doffy literally chose to meet G4 Boundman Luffy in the sky, face to face even though he coulda stayed at a distance and just sent his attack upwards anyways.
Unlike Ulti, Gear 4th Boundman can actually fly. Luffy in Boundman was also significantly faster then Doflamingo to the point he couldn't perecive Luffy creeping behind him and nailing him with Rhino Sneider. There is no other way Doflamingo could have played that situation as he is not fast enough to escape Luffy who can chase him on air and land. Luffy's Bound Man Time Limit was Doffy's only saving grace.
As far as Ulti goes... She can't do anything about him just staying at altitudes she can't reach. She can't fly like Gear 4 and Doflamingo isn't dumb enough to fight someone physically stronger then him close quarters if he can help it. Legit just spams Awakening Threads where she can't reach until she goes down.
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No, Kaido literally just tanks Gamma Knife straight to the heart and Kaido has been shown to shrug off plenty of internal attacks from Killer, Law, and Luffy especially. There's no "Kaido's hide is just that dense."
Kaido's hide is that dense. You are right about Law's attack though. Definitely more "internal" then Killer or Luffy at that point.
Kaido literally says they have ways around his durability... t
And he literally says the same about the Scabbards and cites Oden's Ryou as the source
hen Killer goes on to say he's going to attack Kaido internally to damage him
Killer didn't do anything different from the 9. He cut into Kaido's hide. Still an internal attack. Except Killer obviously hits harder then Kinemon. His power would be closer to Neko and Inu Sulong forms.
Why do I have to explain this to you, if you just remembered what happened in the manga instead I wouldn't be having this problem.
I have to keep reposting the scan of Kaido citing Ryou. It's not my problem you don't know what pierce means. You also keep trying to make non sensical arguments for Kinemon. (which as nothing to do with this topic by the way. You keep going on a useless tangent of things that don't relate to Ulti)
So basically in conclusion to the Kinemon stuff, you couldn't post an actual valid reason to why Ashura Doji's statement with 20 years of getting stronger and Kinemon staying the same is null and void. Dog even reaffirms this statement and your argument against this was "muh... Oda joking" When the feats and portrayal couldn't get anymore clearer. Kinemon already had Ryou and you try to say him training for 1 day equates to 20 years......
Anyways... Enough of that off topic stuff. I'll make this simple for you.
Give me a VALID reason to how Ulti even tags Doflamingo when he is fighting to the fullest of his capabilities High IQ and all. Your best argument for her was..... "muh....Ulti jump real high" That's not going to cut it. Doflamingo can still fly far above that and is intelligent enough to do so. Can have her fight a String Clone while he the real Doffy just stays in the air and spams Awakening, etc.
Speed wise.... Ulti was tagged by Usopp. Let's not pretend like she outclass Doffy in speed pls. Kaido is not a good measuring stick for speed as he changes and can even keep up with Gear 5. Oda is not consistent in that regard or that's just Kaido' character.
@wushu59: Oh my gosh Wushu, wushu... wushu... stop using this panel:
It literally proves nothing as Kaido literally says later that they don't have the haki he thought that they did... yet you keep on posting this panel above as if it means anything it doesn't it's pointless and has already been explained in the manga...
And my gosh Kaido literally says they are cutting him, internal destruction wouldn't care about Kaido's hide as I showcased with the Killer panel yet the scabbards do care about cutting Kaido and they want to cut his hide.
You have no argument I already countered every point you've brought forth why do you keep on just going on endlessly and seriously your giving the definition of "pierce" as if that proves your point? You do realize it literally says as an example "a splinter (sword) had pierced the skin (hide)..." like they're cutting into Kaido's skin... them cutting him isn't internal damage let alone internal destruction...
And my gosh how can you look at what happened on the rooftop and not say that Act 1 G4 Boundman wasn't just plainly weaker it makes no sense we literally see Post Udon base Luffy faster, more durable, and stronger than he was before it's ridiculous.
And once again Thunder Bagua isn't some way stronger attack than his normal swings we literally know that the power of Kaido's swing would one shot Act 1 Luffy... they say as so...
I don't even know anymore you have literally just ignored everything I said and said I'm wrong even though I have proved you were being disingenuous like you literally just ignored that you were manipulating information with the Ashura comment it's actually kinda hilarious at this point.
Anyways not like you'll listen as your still harping on the freaking Kinemon durability > Queen thing even though I said that's not the case and already shown why but whatever Wushu you do you I guess as you can just ignore the manga with zero regard of what the story tells.
OT; Doffy in character doesn't go right into the sky we see that in like every fight he goes in between his multiple fights with Law and Luffy he stays almost always on the ground only going into the air for maneuvering around his opponent to then return to engaging into melee combat. Ulti has the jumping ability to fling herself like a missile and reach Doffy who never goes into the sky in the start of combat. Then Ulti grabs Doffy uses Ulti meteor and smashes Doffy's skull in since he can't escape Ulti's grasp.
It literally proves nothing as Kaido literally says later that they don't have the haki he thought that they did...
He NEVER says this at all. Never says anything about Haki. He just points out they are not as powerful as Oden. Oden can actually level a permanent cut on Kaido. Retainers can't. And Killer didn't either. Only Oden and Zoro accomplished that.
yet you keep on posting this panel above as if it means anything it doesn't it's pointless and has already been explained in the manga...
It literally proves they need Ryou to penetrate is skin / scales and damage him. They wouldn't be able to bypass his outer durability otherwise.
You have no argument I already countered every point you've brought forth why do you keep on just going on endlessly
I countered every single point you made with my last post and you come back with this half assed one not even addressing most of the points I made. Or simply giving weak comebacks.
and seriously your giving the definition of "pierce" as if that proves your point?
Pierce is going into or through something.
What's the definition of internal?
Inside something. There you go, internal damage.
The scan you posted literally proves it's bypassed durability.
They can't cut through his scales at all but his insides still feel it because they are bypassing the regular durability of his skin. And are only able to do so with Ryou.
like they're cutting into Kaido's skin... them cutting him isn't internal damage let alone internal destruction...
The scan you posted literally says they aren't cutting him.
And internal destruction is a strong world. I NEVER said that. That is the word you keep using. Even Luffy never actually does this to Kaido. He is too durable. That would imply they are actually destroying something. Internal damage is a better word that isn't as drastic.
showcased with the Killer panel
Killer is bypassing the hide just like the Scarabs. He clearly isn't reaching the heart like Law. Not sure why you keep bringing up Killer.
And my gosh how can you look at what happened on the rooftop and not say that Act 1 G4 Boundman wasn't just plainly weaker it makes no sense we literally see Post Udon base Luffy faster, more durable, and stronger than he was before it's ridiculous.
ONCE AGAIN. You ignored the fact that Luffy was knocked out cold several times with Killer, Law, Zoro and Kid's helo.
ONCE AGAIN. You ignore the fact that Kaido is on par with Gear 5 and therefore is not a good measuring stick of speed. Yet you keep trying to use him to gauge Luffy's speed Base form post Udon.
ONCE AGAIN. You ignore the context I already laid out for you during the first fight.
Every single one of the points you have failed to counter or even acknowledge.
And once again Thunder Bagua isn't some way stronger attack than his normal swings we literally know that the power of Kaido's swing would one shot Act 1 Luffy... they say as so...
They are just stating what happen. A single Thunder Bauga one shot him. Kaido goon never says "Kaido did not need to use Thunder Bauga" You are trying to create your own narrative of something that isn't there. Completely useless scan. Please do not go on another nonsensical tangent like you did with Amnesia Big Mom.
I don't even know anymore you have literally just ignored everything I said
What are you talking about?? I literally address every word you said about the AshurI Doji statement. Do I have to give to definition for ignore as well?
and said I'm wrong even though I have proved you were being disingenuous like you literally just ignored that you were manipulating information with the Ashura comment it's actually kinda hilarious at this point.
Please explain to me what I "manipulated" What in the actual fuck????
Ashura Doji OUT RIGHT states the 20 years of training made him stronger. Did I manipulate that? NO
Did Dogstorm not confirm Ashura Doji's statement? Yes he DID. Did I manipulate that? NO
Kinemon having enough self respect and dignity to say something back to them does not make the statements any less true. The feats and showing back this up as well.
Now again.... Please tell me what I "manipulated"? Or do I have to give the definition for manipulate as well?
Until you give a valid reason or argument, this scan of Ashura Doji and Kinemon breaks your ENTIRE argument apart.
OT; Doffy in character doesn't go right into the sky
Is that your only argument? If so, very lousy. Doffy is smart enough character to to fight accordingly. He is one of the smartest characters in the series.
we see that in like every fight he goes in between his multiple fights with Law and Luffy he stays almost always on the ground
Dressrosa versions of Non Gear 4 Luffy and Law were physically weaker then Doflamingo. This is a terrible argument. Doflamingo would be smart enough to fight someone like Ulti differently. And don't bring up Bound Man either. Ulti can't fly like Bound Man so that argument is null and void.
Ulti has the jumping ability to fling herself like a missile
It's hilarious that this your only argument. Doffy just out reaches here with flight and spams projectiles till she goes down. She got tagged by Usopp... Doffy will have a field day with her.
Then Ulti grabs Doffy uses Ulti meteor and smashes Doffy's skull in since he can't escape Ulti's grasp.
The only thing she might potentially grab is a clone. Doffy isn't this stupid.
I better start summarizing the things you fail to counter or else you going to keep replying without saying nothing.
You didn't address Luffy getting knocked out by Kaido multiple times despite having help from Killer, Kid, Law, Zoro. So no evidence for "better durability" Ryou helps neutralize damage but if Luffy got hit by Kaido flush he is still getting KO'd just the same as proven..... Again, Luffy couldn't get hit anymore flush by Kaido's Thunder Bauga the first time.
You didn't address me pointing out Kaido is bad measuring stick for speed. You keep using Kaido "blitzing Pre-Udon Luffy as way to measure Post Udon Speed. But you can't do this because Kaido is literally Gear 5 speed. Luffy literally says Kaido is too fast even when using FS. So stop saying beginning of roof top Base Luffy is faster. There is no evidence of that. Definitely not pre- Conqueror's Infusion. Not relevant to Ulti anyway who got tagged by Usopp. Luffy non mastered Ryou got cocky and fought close quarters with her and just grabbed. Keep blowing her way out of proportion
You didn't address a good counter to the Ahsura Doji Kinemon statement which breaks your entire argument apart. I already broke down why I did not "manipulate" what is being said. Pisses me off that you even typed that. Literally what is written on the panel. Just drop it. Hasn't nothing to do with this thread any way.
You somehow didn't know internal is a word meaning "inside of something" Which is exactly the type of damage Retainers cause to Kaido with Ryou which they not be able to otherwise.
You say the Retainers are cutting Kaido but literally post a scan saying they can't cut Kaido contradicting yourself. Kaido was being stung by their offense due to his outer durability of his scales being ignored. What is so hard to understand about this? It is the only thing that makes logical sense given Kinemon is too weak to damage Kaido otherwise. Again, I advise dropping this topic as it has nothing to with Ulti or Page One. But you keep insist on getting spanked here.
Your only argument for Ulti beating Doflamingo is her jumping high. But this is a terrible argument as it isn't enough to reach Doflamingo max flight. And your other terrible argument of Doffy always starting fight grounded, as if he wouldn't be intelligent enough to fight accordingly in a way that benefitted him. Doffy was also part of Kaido's empire so the likelihood of him already knowing about Ulti is there as well.
That's another thing. You constantly dismiss Doflamingo's intelligence like it wouldn't matter here.
We already seen how Page One handled flight of Sanji's Raid Suit. Horribly. He's no help either.
@wushu59: I say this as politely as I can your a joke. Like seriously again what's with the pierce and internal as by that definition like everything is freaking internal damage. Next thing you'll by saying that a human punch does internal damage because it can hurt your innards when you get punched.
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Oh wow look at that I too can post the definitions of words look at me oh wow and look at that too cutting (making an incision) into something wow I guess everything is internal damage... bruh return to reality they are cutting into his hide as in cutting his hide. It's not internal damage in the least as they are just cutting into his hide they aren't bypassing his hide and attacking him internally just cutting him.
And once again with the Ashura statement why does Ashura's hold more than Kinemon's in fact there was a whole theme about the old samurai being unable to wait the twenty years for Toki's prophecy. Not that it matters as Kinemon's feats speak for them self and that Ashura himself made it out as a joke as evident by the rest of the conversation and the fact that they are laughing afterward clearly teasing Kinemon in a joking manner we even see a 'Bwahahahaha" behind them. After wards as we pull out from the scene they even say that the two fight Kinemon as evident by the randoms exclaiming "Now, Now, please don't fight here!! None of us can break up an Akazaya quarrel" so yeah no Kinemon is not that much weaker though Kinemon is weaker than the Ashura and such as I said multiple times Kinemons feats speak for themselves.
1) "It literally proves nothing as Kaido literally says later that they don't have the haki he thought that they did..." Your Response: He NEVER says this at all. Never says anything about Haki. He just points out they are not as powerful as Oden. Oden can actually level a permanent cut on Kaido. Retainers can't. And Killer didn't either. Only Oden and Zoro accomplished that.
Once again a failure to read the manga he does say this as he says they don't have Oden's haki, are too shallow, that their blasdes don't resemble Oden's, and such.
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Him saying that they aren't Oden and their blades not resembling Oden is in direct confirmation to saying they don't have the haki Kaido thought they had.
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2) They can't cut through his scales at all but his insides still feel it because they are bypassing the regular durability of his skin. And are only able to do so with Ryou.
What in the actual dang darn world are talking about every scabbard cut him there was no internal damage they cut his hide. Kiku impaled Kaido's hand!? We see every scabbards cut Kaido's scales!? Kaido even says all the scabbards cut him. There's no instance of Kaido saying the Scabbards are doing internal damage. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT are you reading the same manga I am Kaido was cut and stabbed PLENTY by the scabbards but Kaido is just too strong (and a zoan) so whatever damage they deal barely affects him.
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And there's plenty more of them cutting Kaido.
3) And internal destruction is a strong word. I NEVER said that. That is the word you keep using. Even Luffy never actually does this to Kaido. He is too durable. That would imply they are actually destroying something. Internal damage is a better word that isn't as drastic.
What are you talking about why does this matter!? Luffy uses internal destruction on Kaido it's just that Kaido is a tank and can take damage straight to his organs (like gamma right to the heart). And why would I not use internal destruction that's the word for the haki!? They literally say it destroys your target from the inside.... as in internal destruction. We even see Luffy finishing learning internal destruction and emittion haki by destroying the backside of a tree without needing to touch it... we also see Luffy destroy Yamato's cuffs.
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4) Killer is bypassing the hide just like the Scabbards. He clearly isn't reaching the heart like Law. Not sure why you keep bringing up Killer.
The scabbards aren't bypassing anything they just cut Kaido... Killer is literally shown slicing all the way through Kaido's innards so I also don't know what your talking about here either when you say he isn't reaching Kaido's heart especially as Killer literally uses his sonic scythe on the exact spot where Law hit with his Gamma Knife...
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And the reason I brought up Killer was to show a distinction between actual internal damage (sonic scythe) and the Scabbards just cutting Kaido's hide...
5) ONCE AGAIN. You ignored the fact that Luffy was knocked out cold several times with Killer, Law, Zoro and Kid's helo.
At least he survived more than one swing from Kaido... so your point? I don't care if Luffy got knocked out that doesn't matter all that matters is that Luffy can take more hits from Kaido than his Act 1 self which he did.
6) ONCE AGAIN. You ignore the fact that Kaido is on par with Gear 5 and therefore is not a good measuring stick of speed. Yet you keep trying to use him to gauge Luffy's speed Base form post Udon.
Never said that Post Udon Luffy is as strong as Kaido just said he's stronger than his Act 1 version why is this hard to understand. And the Kaido which fought Post Udon and the one who fought G5 are vastly different Base Post Udon fought a normal base and dragon form Kaido and got defeated swiftly. While the Kaido who fought G5 was using Shuron Hakke, Hybrid Form, and Future Sight along with more advanced techniques so then again what are you talking about.
Also why can't I use him for speed it's not like his swings in base form are different from act 1 to Rooftop. The Thunder Bagua which hit Act 1 and the one where base Luffy barely dodges are the same Thunder Bagua...
7) They are just stating what happen. A single Thunder Bauga one shot him. Kaido goon never says "Kaido did not need to use Thunder Bagua" You are trying to create your own narrative of something that isn't there. Completely useless scan. Please do not go on another nonsensical tangent like you did with Amnesia Big Mom.
They literally never mention Thunder Bagua they say a swing of his club.... in fact Thunder Bagua doesn't even use two hands like a normal swing from Kaido so if anything a normal swing would be stronger than Thunder Bagua. So base Post Udon was definitely more durable than his Act 1 self.
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As such an one handed swing of his club by base Kaido almost killed and oneshot Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy... yet a Base Post Udon Luffy can survive not only a thunder bagua from a base Kaido but also a two handed swing from a hybrid Kaido...
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So I don't see any reason why you can't say that Post Udon isn't more durable than Act 1 G4 Boundman Luffy since he's literally just more durable we saw this when Luffy blocked Big mom's punch with Ryou (Emittion haki).
Anyways that'll be the end of this conversation my gosh.
Start in CQC which means Ulti blitzes and oneshots Doffy after grappling him. I don't know what the 50ft apart means unless it means the team starts 50ft then engage in CQC or whatever but it starting in CQC means Ulti just wins and I guess Page 1 is there too.
Start in CQC which means Ulti blitzes and oneshots Doffy after grappling him. I don't know what the 50ft apart means unless it means the team starts 50ft then engage in CQC or whatever but it starting in CQC means Ulti just wins and I guess Page 1 is there too.
1) Did Luffy's Gear 4 become physically stronger or rather is there any proof that his armament haki improved from Doffy to Katakrui? If not...
Base Luffy can damage Doffy yet gets noselled by Crackers biscuits... Crackers biscuits/armament are shown to be superior to Luffy which Luffy even notes and when Luffy's in G4 he can start to destroy Crackers biscuits which to me shows that the G4 which fought Doffy and the one who fought Cracker are different as Luffy when using all his haki couldn't drop Doffy in a hit with a normal G4 attack yet in the Cracker fight with G4 Luffy could destroy Crackers biscuits which are as I established more durable than Doffy. So the Luffy's haki increased between DR and WCI (we even know haki can grow as Blackbeard said so to Luffy in impel down).
Then once again Luffy after his fight with Cracker goes on to fight Katakuri who once again has superior Haki especially Observation but this time instead of it just being almost impossible break through (like in base against Crackers biscuits) in his clashes Katakuri's haki proves so superior that Luffy is hurting himself when he clashes with him (Katakuri even says he's just stronger/faster than base Luffy) and later that same base Luffy after getting some growth is said to be equal to Katakuri somewhat so I do think at least to some degree Luffy not only improved his Observation Haki but just Haki in general.
Then we also have the statements of Haki blooming in fights from Rayliegh/Hyogoro and such so we know from both the Katakuri and Cracker fights Luffy should have had some amount of growth. As even it was established pretimeskip with Zoro in Ennies Lobby who said that they get stronger every island so I certainly don't think the G4 Doffy faced and the G4 in WCI are the same strength.
So in conclusion yes I do think Luffy grew by how much is not so clear cut but growth certainly did occur. But as I said it isn't clear cut like as we couldn't say his Haki improved X amount but we do see it improve as we know it should.
2) My logic is: (WCI) G4 Luffy >/= Kata
Yeah statwise yes but Katakuri had more efficiency and more numbers with that he could summon more hands essentially. But yeah you can sat that especially later in the fight.
3) Kata > Perospero (iirc based on statements from Brulee)
Well they all love Katakuri in fact we know Oven couldn't even believe Katakuri lost yet in the cover story we see Katakuri and Oven can evenly trading blows with his triplet after both being affected by Ceasers Gas. So their stats should be similar yet we know Sanji can defy Katakuri's Future Sight and statue Oven even in WCI and raid suit Wano Sanji (a stronger sanji) has a fight with Page 1 who is like the weakest Tobi Roppo. And by portrayal Perospero as the eldest should be more experienced than Katakuri which is conflated by that we even know Katakuri hasn't had much experience getting hit by people which is why Katakuri's durability was so low (he took like 13 hits before he got downed compared to Luffy taking like 10x the amount Katakuri took) and we known Katakuri hasn't gone against much challenge as even base Luffy could dodge so much of Katakuri's attacks he mentioned how frustrating it was meaning everyone before hadn't dodged much of his attacks therefore they probably weren't that much of a challenge (we even know the Yonkos kinda just stagnated in an eternal draw so Katakuri must've not gotten that much combat in his years compared to Perospero who has lived for longer).
4) Perospero > Neko (no sulong)
This one is iffy as we know both before hand encountered and fought strong opponents (Perospero got attacks by both Sulong Wanda and Carrot along with some more fodder Minks and such while Neko took some heavy damage from the rooftop though he did have some time to recover). But yeah I guess for all intents and purposes yeah.
5) Scabbards > Flying six. (Jack's statement)
Yeah... but even then Who's Who and Sasaki where both aiming for an all star spot as Who's Who was aiming at Queen of all people someone superior too Jack not to mention honestly I could see some of the Tobi Roppo defeating the likes of Kanjuro, Kiku, Raizo, or if we count them Izo and Shinobu who are all like part of the Scabbards.
6) If Doflamingo is capable of outlasting G4, I think it fair to assume he does not get one shotted here.
Well even if you assume he doesn't get oneshotted (a hefty stance) nothing Doffy can really do makes him able to escape Ulti's grip and after getting hit by a weaker headbutt even Post Udon Base Luffy was shown to have quite literally been drlled into the ground so much so he even remarked that Ulti rang his bell (head) so Ulti overpowering Doffy with the one which Ulti might've gotten off on Luffy without Yamato's interference I have no doubt would deal major damage and as I said would probably oneshot Doffy.
Anyways that'll be all I guess oh and I can get all the panels backing this but imma just post this for now and maybe edit it later with all the panels I want.
OT: Doffy just got outscaled and featwise and even portrayal wise could honestly looking back now Doffy probaly loses to even Page 1 though Ulti does just kinda win.
Doffy could create a clone to hold off Page1, and then use his awakening to trap Ulti with his strings, while she's trapped, and unable to move, he should be able to finish her off.
In the meantime Page1 would have defeated the clone, but then Doffy would beat him up in a straight 1v1 fight.
I think we (the fan base) have a tendency to underestimate a lot of characters and jump too far to a conclusion when two characters have a short interaction. Thats why I prefer statements as evidence generally speaking. But Kata is the first mate, so logically he is the second strongest in the crew.
Nami vs Ulti
Bro, she couldn't knock out Nami or Ussop in one hit. No way hell she is knocking out Doffy in a single hit. Nami doesn't even have haki.
Little proof of G4 improvement.
There is a natural progression that typically comes with Luffy's fights that allows you to see the progression. The road from Doffy to Kata though is harder to see because G4 was stronger than Doffy, Cracker and Kata right off the bat. Luffy also used three different variations of G4 to defeat each one.
Let me be clear. I realize Kata > Cracker > Doffy in terms of haki.
What I am saying is, G4 Dressrosa >/= Katakuri > Cracker > Perospero > Sacbbards > Flying six there is no way Doffy is getting Ko'ed easily.
EDIT: The haki bloom happened for Luffy's COO haki while fighting Kata. The Bloom happened for Luffy's King's haki during the fight with Kaido. I did not see any bloom happen for armament Haki between Doffy and Kata. If Luffy for an example began to be able to clash evenly with block mochi then i would agree but it's not what happened.
1) Kata > Pero. I think we (the fan base) have a tendency to underestimate a lot of characters and jump too far to a conclusion when two characters have a short interaction. That's why I prefer statements as evidence generally speaking. But Kata is the first mate, so logically he is the second strongest in the crew.
And by that logic Streusen (co founder) or as I said Perospero (eldest child) should be number 1 since technically they hold priority over Katakuri's position as "first mate."
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In fact the only reason Katakuri is so highly regarded is his reputation which as I said was seemingly built up fighting people weaker than him as like I said and even Katakuri said it's been a long time since someone hit him or dodged so many of his attacks meaning the people he's fought weren't even on the level of a retreating beaten up tired base Luffy...
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Also even if we say that Katakuri is definitively stronger than Perospero all that would mean is at best that current Katakuri grew stronger and is stronger than current Perospero and none of that goes against what is said and would even make sense when you remember that Katakuri went through some growth by the end of WCI. So it could go scaling wise that Current Kata > Current Pero > Base Neko > Act 1 G4 Luffy > WCI Katakuri > WCI Perospero... and not the WCI Katakuri > Scabbards scaling you had like you said.
Does that make sense?
2) Nami vs Ulti. Bro, she couldn't knock out Nami or Ussop in one hit. No way hell she is knocking out Doffy in a single hit. Nami doesn't even have haki.
That's a feat for Nami and Ussop and their endurance as we know that Ussop get his head cracked from a single headbutt and we both know Nami is loved by Oda so he wouldn't make her go through something like Ussop there's also the promise Luffy made to Genzo which he said he'd never make Nami lose her smile. And them being "not knocked out' like really... they were borderline dying one more head butt and they would've been dead or in a full head cast like Ussop after his fight in Alabasta when his head (and like entire body) got shattered by Mr. 4's bat.
3) Little proof of G4 improvement. There is a natural progression that typically comes with Luffy's fights that allows you to see the progression. The road from Doffy to Kata though is harder to see because G4 was stronger than Doffy, Cracker and Kata right off the bat. Luffy also used three different variations of G4 to defeat each one.
Well remember as I said Base Luffy got no selled by Crackers biscuits while Doffy couldn't no sell a Base Luffy so Cracker's biscuits are more durable than Doffy yet a WCI G4 using all of Luffy's haki can utterly destroy Crackers biscuits even though they are more durable than Doffy.
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Then after that Katakuri thought Base Luffy (Barely Future Sight using) an equal... so eh Luffy certainly did go up in the haki he had if only a bit especially in Observation Haki which was the main focus of the fight.
4) Let me be clear. I realize Kata > Cracker > Doffy in terms of haki. What I am saying is, G4 Dressrosa >/= Katakuri > Cracker > Perospero > Scabbards > Flying six there is no way Doffy is getting Ko'ed easily.
The problem with this is that Luffy's haki got better to some degree and that the G4 which fought Doffy and the one who fought Katakuri are different. Not to mention as I said in my previous post Who's who was going to go after Queen someone who is a tier stronger than Jack and Jack of which can like equal the Scabbards so... eh the scale isn't perfect now and Jack's statement isn't super true as like I said some of the Tobi Roppo wanted to take on (and thought they might've won) against an all star... especially you putting Perospero as the link between the two scaling's is suspect due to the reasons I have already put forth.
5) The haki bloom happened for Luffy's COO haki while fighting Kata. The Bloom happened for Luffy's King's haki during the fight with Kaido. I did not see any bloom happen for armament Haki between Doffy and Kata. If Luffy for an example began to be able to clash evenly with block mochi then I would agree but it's not what happened.
Nothing is there to say his other haki didn't also get stronger if anything as I said it makes sense that his haki got better after/later in the fight. And as I said in the Cracker battle it could be seen as an increase in haki from Dressrosa to WCI. Also haki can increase or get stronger but that doesn't mean that with that increase you are suddenly able to equal your opponent like just look at the Post Udon 1st Rooftop Knockout as Luffy had got an increase in haki and even started applying Adv Conq but just because he got an increase that didn't mean he was on Kaido's level (Luffy later in the rooftop could also switch in and out of his G4 Forms without the 10 minute no haki downtime he usually got).
Gallery
Well I guess that's everything and I kinda posted all the pages I wanted so I'll leave it at that.
OT: Still the outcome is the same Ulti can win on her own and if I really wanted to argue it I could also probably argue Page 1 could win on his own as well but whatever.
You dont have to post so many scans. Just reference the chapter. I'm lazy.
Kata vs. Pero
1. Chapter 882 -Brulee says that "Kata is the greatest fruit the charlotte family tree has ever produced". I think we can put the Pero / Kata debate to bed. Fair point to you about Strusen/ seniority though.
Ussop > Doflamingo?
2. Your explanation for why Ulti did not knock out Nami or Ussop is basically "plot armor". Which all the straw hats benefit from. I am not going to open up that can of worms. Bottom line, Doffy is not going to be one shot by an attack that couldn't KO Nami or Ussop. Current Ussop and Nami cannot take that beating from G4 Luffy. You need to understand how insane this take is.
Luffy Vs. Kata.
3. Luffy did improve during the Katkuri fight, but it was fairly obvious that his observation haki needed to improve in that fight to win. Luffy had the power, he just needed the COO and speed. Hence snakeman. That is what Kata was referring to. It is true that Haki improves when facing challenges but Luffy never overcame the block mochi in base. From the start, Luffy was superior in G4. Thats why I am conflicted on whether Luffy's armament haki improved. I just did not see it. At best, it increased overtime but thats not enough for me personally. I need to see harder evidence.
Luffy vs Cracker.
I dont really understand your point about Cracker's armor and non g4 Luffy.
Tobbi Roppo vs Commanders
Whos-who might have wanted to go after Queen but that doesn't mean he was going to win. The scaling checks out just fine.
Who acutally wins.
Doflamingo does very well against blunt force attacks. He has insane versatility, flight, hax, island sized range, very slippery, Awakened DF AOE attacks, regen. All it would take is a parasite string to end either of them.
The duo are insanely tough and strong, would be insanely hard for Doffy to put down with blunt froce alone. but there is not much else to say about them.
@wushu59: Big Mom got run over by Franky, flipped by Jinbei, and failed to catch Usopp and Chopper in a tank. Another instance of low showings is Luffy and Zoro getting blitzed by Gazelleman. My point is that many characters have low showings and shouldn't be used to downplay them.
@wushu59: Big Mom got run over by Franky, flipped by Jinbei, and failed to catch Usopp and Chopper in a tank. Another instance of low showings is Luffy and Zoro getting blitzed by Gazelleman. My point is that many characters have low showings and shouldn't be used to downplay them.
Big Mom's instances were clearly gag scenes.
Yamato blowing Ulti back with her shock wave is not a gag scene. Ulti does not scale to Yamato.
Ulti unable to escape Usopp's plant is not a gag scene. She has no leverage an actually can't escape.
Nami dropping Ulti the ground with her lightning before even getting Zeus back is not a gag scene. Ulti directly states "it hurts." Check episode 1019 I think it was. This was before Big Mom hit her even.
Luffy underestimated her which is directly stated and did not even used Advanced Haki. She still barley overpowered him as all he was doing was blocking. He literally blitzes her right after in base an only gets caught due to being 2 v 1. Going Gear 4th is a leverage thing which has nothing to do with striking power just like Ulti getting stuck by Usopp.
Start in CQC which means Ulti blitzes and oneshots Doffy after grappling him. I don't know what the 50ft apart means unless it means the team starts 50ft then engage in CQC or whatever but it starting in CQC means Ulti just wins and I guess Page 1 is there too.
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