Doctor Doom vs. Count Nefaria (Read OP)

Victor Von Doom faces off against Count Nefaria.

For this scenario, Doom isn't allowed to drain Count Nefaria's ionic energy or tamper with his power levels in any way. (Like he has in the past):

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Both are in character, win by death or K.O., BFR isn't allowed, random encounter, standard equipment and abilities (except for Doom's energy draining device).

Who wins?

I can see Doom winning this if he never puts his shields down. I think Nefaria's arrogance will be his downfall.

Although if Nefaria does get his hands on Doom, it's a wrap.

doom FTW

Count Nefaria tears him in half if he's not jobbing.

@noone301994: Doom's force Fields protected him from Modern Thor's blasts,his energy attacks were able to hurt the Hulk and he can call demons from other dimensions to fight for him.Doom is also the smartest man in MU and is a master tactician and has knowlege of various forms of martial arts.Going with Doom.

@krleavenger: Count nefaria has over powered Thor easily in the past as well as an entire avengers team, so having shields on par with Thor will not save Doom. Nefaria fought the avengers and the thunderbolts at the same time and had no damage by the end of it. The only way I see Doom winning is if he drains Nefaria, and since he can't do that here, Nefaria should win due to over whelming strength and durability. When was the last time Nefaria even got hurt by a weapon that wasn't specifically designed to combat/drain him?

@harbingerofmomz: That was classic Thor who is much weaker than modern Thor with is why I said modern Thor on my comment. Classic Thor wasn't able to beat Graviton and Extremis Iron-man was able to defeat Graviton easily. Also,Iron-man from the 90s was beating up Nefaria like crap and that is the weaker Iron-man that Extremis. And Modern Thor easily stomped Iron-man.

So Doom's Shields > Modern Thor's attacks > Extremis Iron-man > 90s Iron-man > Nefaria > Classic Thor.

@krleavenger: Iron Man couldn't beat up Count Nefaria through brute force. His plan was to make Count Nefaria use up as much of his Ionic energy as possible so that he'd get weaker. He was only able to tank hits from him and make him scream out in pain with his repulsors.

@noone301994: Doom's energy Shields are more durable than Iron-man's armor and Doom's energy blasts are more powerful than Tony's repulsors. He can take everything Nefaria throws at him and can deliver damage to him with his energy blasts or call demons to fight for him. Doom can do the same thing Iron-man did, to make Nefaria use much of his iconic energy so he gets weaker.

@krleavenger: Fair enough.

@noone301994: Well yeah,I mean ,,I'm the most intelligent, capable person on the planet'' LOL. (you know where that came from).

@krleavenger: Superior Iron Man, right?

@noone301994: Yes.

@krleavenger:

Actually Doom is not the smartest man on planet, it is Reed Richards, and further proved in Secret Wars.

@mazeraiii: It's always ,,this guy is the first and this guy is the second,and vice versa'' with these two.Doom has more impressive feats in my opinion.

Well, read the Secret Wars(the latest one) and you would see that Reed is the smartest one.

@mazeraiii: What?He became omnipotent by taking the power of Molecule Man,defeted Dr. Doom,took away his power of the Beyonders,destroyed Battleworld,returned all realities into existence and healed Doom's skars?

Reed didn't prove to be smarter than Doom in SW. Doom was just written out of character and stupidly. He basically lost due to PIS and WIS.

On topic, Doom wins

@highaccuser: based on what? As far as I'm aware his best (and only feats) are him beating on mid-tier/ street level avengers and thunderbolt teams. The only person he's ever fought that's noteworthy is thor, in an era where thor always pulled his hits on mortals and is so accustomed to holding back that he doesn't even realise he's doing it, and even then he didn't win IIRC.

Siding with Nefaria just IMO.

@thedailybagel: He was also shrugging off Wonder Man's hits. Besides, I think this scan should prove he wasn't holding back as much as you might think:

"I haven't battled a foe of thy mettle since I last battled the Destroyer. All the more reason I must stop thee, Nefaria."

Then he calls a bunch of lighting and "bathes" Mjonir in "thy power".

Also dailybagel, while I have you, I didn't get a chance to respond to that Red Hulk vs Ms. Marvel thread since it was locked. Those War Machine drones were based off of Norman's Iron Patriot and that was significantly weaker than the real deal:

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So no need to gloat :)

@noone301994: IIRC classic thor literally said stuff like that all the time, but even so, thor used to say that even at risk of losing he'd almost never use full force against opponents, as well as not even realising he's holdng back sometimes. I'm inclined to believe that a modern day thor would wreck nefaria given that his personality has changed considerably and he doesn't hold back nearly as much. And wonder man is still only a midtier.

Fair enough then, I was taking shots at tony :p

He didn't just "fight" Thor, he literally caught his attacks one-handed and grounded him briefly using a building.Yes he would've been holding back but I don't think that degrades the feat too much considering Thor is still powerful in character and the vast majority of his fights have him holding back. I would also say one-shotting Wonder Man is enough to suggest Doom can't stand up to him and it's not like Doom is actually superior to those other mid-tier Avengers teams Nefaria was mangling. Hell he's not even on the same level as Vision to my knowledge and Vision was on both Avengers teams Nefaria fought.

@thedailybagel:

I'm inclined to believe that a modern day thor would wreck nefaria given that his personality has changed considerably and he doesn't hold back nearly as much.

Where did you get that from? He still holds back all the time even in modern days.

DD

@highaccuser: Thor did the exact same to nefaria using his fists (grounding him I mean), in fact, thor basically had him beat in two shots towards the end of the fight. He ragdolled him with a hammer throw and then punched him into a building that collapsed on him, nefaria barely got back up and was staggering around like he was on the brink of collapsing. Whilst I agree thor is powerful in character, it's not like nefariia had him on the ropes or was even flat out winning, he was in awe of mjolnirs power and thor had almost ended the fight in two hits prior to vision getting the KO.

Besides, I wasn't implying that nefaria couldn't win, I just didn't get where 'tearing doom in half' came from seeing as that implies a flat out stomp, something I dont see this as imo. And yes, he was KOed by vision the first time after being knocked around by thor, and wouldve been put down by him earlier with phasing, but for whatever reason his body's energy was immune to it or something like that.

@highaccuser: I never said nor implied that thor doesn't hold back anymore, I said "he doesn't hold back nearly as much" which unless I'm severely mistaken and have only read outliers, is true. Where classic thor would rather risk losing a fight out of fear of severely harming mortals, modern thor just hits harder (although is still careful so he doesn't kill). Heck, I remember seeing a scan posted by lvenger where semi-current thor throws mjolnir, it bounces off his enemy, he realises he's holding back, throws it again and shatters the guy. Since the late 90s around the onslaught event thor cuts loose more and isn't as willing to lose fights just so he doesn't hurt the other guy.

@thedailybagel:

@highaccuser: Thor did the exact same to nefaria using his fists (grounding him I mean), in fact, thor basically had him beat in two shots towards the end of the fight. He ragdolled him with a hammer throw and then punched him into a building that collapsed on him, nefaria barely got back up and was staggering around like he was on the brink of collapsing.

Which would suggest they're on similar strength levels which makes sense. Let's not forget that Nefarious strength comes from multiplying Power Man's strength by 1000 and then taking his powers and I believe he has good showings against Iron Man and I know he supported the U.N building (admittedly he was using size changing there which he didn't have back then but still).

Whilst I agree thor is powerful in character, it's not like nefariia had him on the ropes or was even flat out winning, he was in awe of mjolnirs power and thor had almost ended the fight in two hits prior to vision getting the KO.

It was strongly implied the Avengers wouldn't have beaten Nefaria if it weren't for him being told he was going to die soon. No he wasn't superior to Thor by a noticable margin but he was clearly on the same level as him. Doom isn't.

Besides, I wasn't implying that nefaria couldn't win, I just didn't get where 'tearing doom in half' came from seeing as that implies a flat out stomp, something I dont see this as imo. And yes, he was KOed by vision the first time after being knocked around by thor, and wouldve been put down by him earlier with phasing, but for whatever reason his body's energy was immune to it or something like that.

Vision wouldn't have been able to drop him with phasing based on feats. Vision only managed that with Thor's help.

Me saying Nefaria stomps is more because of how I rate Doom than how I rate Nefaria. We're talking about someone who got overpowered by Morgan Le Fay who couldn't even stop Moonstone and Bullseye from killing her.

The instance you're talking about had him holding back more than usual due to psychological circumstances. Other than instance like that Thor still holds back plenty. I mean he's more willing to kill big villains (Void, The Serpent, etc.) but he still makes a point out of restricting himself against mortals.

Wow, that´s some serious lowballing, Doctor Doom leagues above Vision, Victor can give either Thor or Hulk a good fight.

@thedailybagel: Ehh yeah I guess you could argue that, but that still doesn't explain how Nefaria would hurt Thor. You can hold back your punches, but you can't make your durability weaker. Also, Wonder Man has fought Gladiator, Hyperion, Hercules, briefly knocked out Thor and Wolverine in one punch, and even defeated Red Hulk. You really think he's mid-tier?

Lol. Yeah, I figured.

@noone301994: Bro, where is that fight with Count Nefaria you´re all talking about from ??

Based on what?

@thor_parker82: Avengers #165-166.

He trained thousands of years mastering magic during Millar´s run on Fantastic Four, and he defeated a guy who was stomping the Fantastic Four and had killed countless alternate earths.

During Aaron´s run on Hulk they had a fight and it didn´t go well for Hulk, there was also an instance which I honestly can´t remember well, but I think it was in Greg Pak´s run, where Hulk had trouble with a Doombot that at the time Banner/Hulk thought was the real Doom, although Hulk did win the fight.

As for hanging with Thor, for the same reason, if he´s capable of giving Hulk a good fight, he can give Thor a good fight as well, his shields are strong enough to tank some hits from both of them and his repulsor combined or aided by magic can get in some good hits, don´t get me wrong, Hulk and Thor should win every fight against Doom, but he will certainly won´t get stomped and go down easy.

Thanks :)

@thor_parker82:

He trained thousands of years mastering magic during Millar´s run on Fantastic Four, and he defeated a guy who was stomping the Fantastic Four and had killed countless alternate earths.

He also got soloed by Invisible Woman.

During Aaron´s run on Hulk they had a fight and it didn´t go well for Hulk, there was also an instance which I honestly can´t remember well, but I think it was in Greg Pak´s run, where Hulk had trouble with a Doombot that at the time Banner/Hulk thought was the real Doom, although Hulk did win the fight.

Wasn't Doom running away helpless from an enraged Hulk? I would also mention that Doom has been fodderized utterly by Sentry and beaten or stalemated by Iron Man.

As for hanging with Thor, for the same reason, if he´s capable of giving Hulk a good fight, he can give Thor a good fight as well, his shields are strong enough to tank some hits from both of them and his repulsor combined or aided by magic can get in some good hits, don´t get me wrong, Hulk and Thor should win every fight against Doom, but he will certainly won´t get stomped and go down easy.

I think their respective performances against Sentry and Iron Man would paint a very different picture.

When he defeated Red Hulk and Thor he was amped tho.

Yep. Also he didn't take the power of MM, MM is just the container of the power of the Beyonders, he cannot use that power, but MM can give other people access to that power.

@mazeraiii: Yeah but Doom killed the Beyonders,right?

With prep and help of Molecule Man and Dr. Strange.

@mazeraiii: I know but isn't Doom the first one who found out about the Beyonders and their plan to destroy the Multiverse. And Doom has done and seen things Reed never did. Doom also has knowlege in magic witch is the thing Reed doesn't even believe in.

And? Read latest Secret Wars, in the end it was Reed who is the smartest.

@mazeraiii: Ok I will.

@caped_baldy: Because he was in his ionic form? Do you have any evidence that that form makes him stronger?

If i'm not mistaken, Simon's powers were fluctuating after his resurrection in HA.

@noone301994: I thought it was well known that his ionic form makes him stronger?

@thedailybagel: I must have missed the memo. I'm just looking for on-panel proof of this.

@krleavenger: No, nothing of the sort was ever admitted.

Reed basically got Doom to profess the former'd be a greater savior than the latter because Doom's such a selfish, emotionally insecure prick.

Which given Doom's ego, is of course supposed to count as a monumentally huge "win" for Richards.

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Hell, if anything Reed says he believes Doom capable of so much more than he'd(Doom) already achieved, and flatly DENIES any overall superiority to Doom, again, with the noted exception of how effectively they'd implement omnipotence.

Considering Reed with the combined input of The Illuminati didn't accomplish what Doom had on his own, I have no idea why people are still going around spouting Reed's supposed edge over Doom.

Because it is just that: "supposed", and contradicted by what they actually DID.

Trope-wise; They could be swapped out for Superman and Lex Luthor, and it'd mean the same thing.

Too close to call.

~MiB