@seb178: by having higher ap. He scales above people like 7 copy gremmy who can make his own vacuum of outer space which has shown galaxy levels of power. He simply reiatsu crushes and one shots them. He also has kyoka suigetsu which all they need to do is look at him and they are already under his effects.
Bleach attacks bypassing physical durability is mostly had canon. Pretty much everytime a spirit attacks a living him human it causes physical damage and heals like any other physical wound.
OT:kakashi kumui snipes both their heads off.
I'm sorry when was this can you show proof to back you statement there because i don't remember this
@urahara2121: They stuck at sub-real scaling to Yhwachs TK feat
Clorox is not even close FTL mr. Universelevel Yeewank
Ss and the wol are stated to be dimensions with stars and galaxies which yhwach can nuke easy. Hikone stopped time and distorted the laws of motion with speed. Making him ftl
@urahara2121: "by having higher ap. He scales above people like 7 copy gremmy who can make his own vacuum of outer space which has shown galaxy levels of power."
ya sure a galaxy buster was defeated by continental level kenpachi and are you sure he created it or he just sends kenpachi in space.
"He simply reiatsu crushes and one shots them."
Ya but how will he do it
"He also has kyoka suigetsu which all they need to do is look at him and they are already under his effects."
A lot of misconceptions being thrown around on this thread.
Energy equalization essentially means zero Kido or Getsugas will work on Obito due his status/immunity as a Juubi jin, the absorption powers of the Rinnegan, and the nullifying properties of TSOs. The fact that both he and Kakashi have intangibility here will make them incredibly difficult to hit as well.
Shinigami have "non-physical interaction" in the sense that they can interact with non-corporeal beings made out of the same type of matter as them (reishi). I don't know where along the way people decided that this allowed them to passively negate spatial intangibility.
Also, Shinigami are not intangible. To my knowledge, the Viz translation actually got it wrong here: Hollows and Shinigami are very much tangible due to the high reishi densities of their souls. Chad had zero spiritual awareness (could not see or sense souls) but was still able to interact with them. Even in the first arc, we see Ichigo being flung through walls by his opponents; he didn't just phase through them. And Rukia says as much
Gallery
Tokinada's Kyoka Suigetsu failing against characters with high reiatsu isn't a feat of illusion resistance for those characters. It's a weakness of Tokinada's ability, which is literally noted in the passage. Just because Tokinada's ability has this weakness, doesn't mean this weakness applies to illusions from other verses. Genjutsu is shown to work on stronger characters. Kurama and Naruto are put under genjutsu multiple times by characters with far less chakra than them.
There's no evidence that zanpakuto negate physical durability. This is another argument that gets brought up, but there are no examples of this being the case. Would Superman get one-shotted by Nanao because his Kryptonian durability isn't soul-based? Obviously not. Surprised that people are literally still bringing this up even when energies are equalized, although they don't need to be for this argument to be weak.
OT: This is a closer fight than most are giving it credit for. Bleach team has the stat advantage (though still iffy on the speed scaling being used here), but Naruto team has the hax advantage (Kamui, genjutsu, TSOs, absorption). Leaning toward Bleach team, but not a bad match.
A lot of misconceptions being thrown around on this thread.
Energy equalization essentially means zero Kido or Getsugas will work on Obito due his status/immunity as a Juubi jin, the absorption powers of the Rinnegan, and the nullifying properties of TSOs. The fact that both he and Kakashi have intangibility here will make them incredibly difficult to hit as well.
Shinigami have "non-physical interaction" in the sense that they can interact with non-corporeal beings made out of the same type of matter as them (reishi). I don't know where along the way people decided that this allowed them to passively negate spatial intangibility.
Also, Shinigami are not intangible. To my knowledge, the Viz translation actually got it wrong here: Hollows and Shinigami are very much tangible due to the high reishi densities of their souls. Chad had zero spiritual awareness (could not see or sense souls) but was still able to interact with them. Even in the first arc, we see Ichigo being flung through walls by his opponents; he didn't just phase through them. And Rukia says as much
Gallery
Tokinada's Kyoka Suigetsu failing against characters with high reiatsu isn't a feat of illusion resistance for those characters. It's a weakness of Tokinada's ability, which is literally noted in the passage. Just because Tokinada's ability has this weakness, doesn't mean this weakness applies to illusions from other verses. Genjutsu still works on stronger characters. Kurama and Naruto are put under genjutsu multiple times by characters with far less chakra than them.
There's no evidence that zanpakuto negate physical durability. This is another argument that gets brought up, but there are no examples of this being the case. Would Superman get one-shotted by Nanao because his Kryptonian durability isn't soul-based? Obviously not. Surprised that people are literally still bringing this up even when energies are equalized, even though they don't need to be for this argument to be weak.
OT: This is a closer fight than most are giving it credit for. Bleach team has the stat advantage (though still iffy on the speed scaling being used here), but Naruto team has the hax advantage (Kamui, genjutsu, TSOs, absorption). Leaning toward Bleach team, but not a bad match.
@paxa: yeah. Just to put you in your place I'll start off by proving how they are universal. Starting off it states https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/907343524771545138/907343551841566740/yay_1.jpg if the worlds could be likened to planets the pipeline that connected them would be known as the dangai and the void of space that surrounded it would be known as the garganta. The words if and could are used here to indicate a metaphor, because the Garganta is not the void of space. We know that from the gremmy fight. 807854530443739176/0578-007.jpg shinigami can't breathe in space yet we see ichigo here 807854530443739176/0578-007.jpg breathing just fine in the garganta and we know the garganta is stated to be 807854530443739176/0578-007.jpg a chaos of reishi. To claim the realms are planets would also claim Garganta is outer space, which is factually incorrect. Thus, this is a simple metaphor used to explain how Bleach cosmology functions. It is essentially saying the realms are these spherical structures (like planets) that float around within the Garganta (like how planets float in space); however, they are not actual planets, as Garganta is not literal space. We also know the realms themselves are stated to be sekai https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/769627757465436190/802443039602638858/sekai2.PNG. 尸魂界は魂魄の世界 This translates to “Soul Society is the sekai of souls…” and is from chapter 70 when Urahara is explaining the reishi converter prior to sending the gang to save Rukia. Here https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/769627757465436190/802443034339835904/sekai1.PNG Urahara says: この世界の崩壊を防ぐために。
This translates to “to defend against the collapse of this sekai” and is from chapter 45 when Urahara is explaining why the Shinigami slaughtered the Quincy, with “this sekai” referring to their current setting of the story, World of the Living. Askin who is knowing of yhwachs plans says this https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/769627757465436190/802454064671358986/image0.png 界を3つも潰してその後に何かを創るうとしてる
This translates to “Crushing 3 sekai and afterwards constructing something else” where the 3 sekai in question are World of the Living, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo. We know just from the defintion sekai can mean world, society or universe. In buddhist context sekai refers to the universe and in bleach we know that buddhism exist https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/802622657077051392/image0.png. The realms of Bleach are each based on a realm/realms within Buddhist teachings. For example, World of the Living is Human Realm, Soul Society is Asura Realm, Hell is Hell Realm, Hueco Mundo is Preta Realm, Komamura clan’s Beast Realm is Animal Realm, and Soul King’s Palace is Heavenly Realm. Ginjo even states https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/811393499320025148/image0.jpg which means the three realms as “三界 (sankai)” which is a strictly Buddhist term that means. “the three realms of existence” and in buddhism the three realms of existence make up the universe.
Also, 世界 (sekai) is only translated to “universe” in Budhhist contexts; hence, why early in bleach https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/811410875420114944/19.jpg in bleach https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/811410897029038140/1.jpg everything https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/811410908609249360/4.jpg meant universe. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/811410921376579625/5.jpg We know the reio or the soul king actually stabilizes the universe as its stated in the novelization that
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789953189080072192/800098761992568892/Screenshot_20201219-212434_Chrome.png the reio stabilizes the verse with his spiritual pressure. This is even further backed up when you take into consideration its stated https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/807856781652787200/0626-015.jpg the soul society cannot exist without yhwachs power who just absorbed the soul king. This gets hammered down even more when After the Reio is killed, Yhwach states that Soul Society will crumble https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/807856994778087434/0614-017.jpg urahara also claims the three realms will no longer exist https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/807857377143029780/0615-013.jpg we are even shown devastation begin as soon as Reio dies https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/807857546098507816/0616-002.jpg which all point to the soul king being needed to stabilize these universal realms and yhwach has that level of power after absorbing him. Universal bleach is pretty much nothing new.
@kingogkings777: Maybe. You could think of them as analogous to perfect jinchuriki, but the difference is that we see Bee and Naruto constantly in communication with their Bijuu in their heads, even during intense combat. Aizen and even Ichigo (by EoS) don't seem to do this; they more or less seem to have fused with the power of their zanpakuto. This could be similar to Yagura, who had total control of his Bijuu but wasn't in constant exchange with it, resulting in him still being kept under genjutsu for years by Obito despite his jinchuriki powers. This method is also reliant on the zanpakuto recognizing that their user is being fucked with, which is easier said than done.
@seb178: this is a very dumb argument ya sure a "galaxy buster was defeated by continental level kenpachi and are you sure he created it or he just sends kenpachi in space." Learn what galaxy buster actually means. He created a galaxy and scales to it. If kenpachi is able to hurt him then clearly he isn't continental level, now is he? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/825517346747449344/841650971322482688/gremmy3-1.jpg even states on panel he made his own void of outer space. Seinosuke after delving in the archives states the exact same thing https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789953189080072192/839533800031256616/Screenshot_20210505-170711_Kindle.jpg. and as you can see in the scan https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/825517346747449344/841650325962489887/5966306-14915727155152_1-1-1.jpg we also know gremmy would scale in ap as we see Gremmy becoming fatigued from using his ability https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816387245846167592/0578-011.png this would imply that some amount of reiatsu gremmy uses, strains the capabilities of The Visionary. Also Gremmy’s imagination also doesn’t harm Kenpachi https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/888848155251200060/907352546396487720/0575-015.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/888848155251200060/907352585688735774/0575-016.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/888848155251200060/907352737006616657/0575-018.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/888848155251200060/907352844083023972/0576-009.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/888848155251200060/907352938123497532/0576-010.png until he clones himself https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816386730835443712/0578-009.png increasing the power of his imagination and thus his overall ap. To increase the preponderance of evidence for Gremmy’s The Visionary scaling to his AP or power, he refers to his imagination https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816385656225005568/0576-015.png as power https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/840328655037399070/572_Power_of_Imagination.jpg multiple times. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/840328710854541342/576_Power_of_imagination_doubles_with_a_clone.jpg and directly uses his imagination to amplify his stats https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816387712046071849/0578-013.png Furthermore, if Gremmy imagines something more powerful than his mind can withstand, The Visionary self-destructs. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816388741445713990/0579-004.png Proceeding to claim that his imagination has a limit https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816388863505072178/0579-008.png that limit being Kenpachi’s full power. So, if Gremmy can’t physically handle what he imagines, his body will become damaged. Liltotto further confirms the connection between The Visionary and AP when she states Gremmy’s reiatsu disappeared after failing to contain Kenpachi’s entire power. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/748687178581672109/816389812578680852/Screenshot_20210302-192104_Kindle.jpg. CFYOW also goes out of their way to comment on Gremmy’s abnormally large reiatsu.https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789953189080072192/840605534951964742/Screenshot_20210508-160419_Kindle.jpg and reiatsu is bleach is power supremacy. The Visionary is both bolstered and limited in capabilities by AP, if Gremmy (or multiple Gremmy) cannot handle what he is imagining then he’d die, but he didn’t when imagining a galaxy, thus it’s scalable to AP and lastly to note in bleach your reiatsu and durability need to be relative to each other. Here https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/807858992608313344/0166-005.jpg White explains to Ichigo that if your body cannot withstand your own spiritual pressure, it will crush you under the sheer weight. This premise is demonstrated all the way throughout the end of the series with Kenpachi’s Bankai. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/807859104131448862/0670-011.jpg
All this implies that if your durability is not relative to your own power, that power will tear you apart.
Kenpachi also states that one’s minimum durability is relative to one’s passive spirit energy leakage. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425735336010711050/807859210598612992/0105-007.jpg. And we know that yhwach scales easily above people like gremmy thanks to cfyow stating that gremmy (pre-auswahlen) was the strongest sternritter besides base yhwach https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/890313308522049536/890337187244175400/CFYOW_C14_The_Visionary.jpg
If you still do not understand, then here is the usual chakra = reatsu
Chakra + Natural Energy = Senjutsu
Bleach characters cannot absorb natural energy and mix with their own to obtain energies similar to Senjutsu, so their attacks are useless against Obito, who can erase them with Gudodama just like and normal chakra.
If you still do not understand, then here is the usual chakra = reatsu
Chakra + Natural Energy = Senjutsu
Bleach characters cannot absorb natural energy and mix with their own to obtain energies similar to Senjutsu, so their attacks are useless against Obito, who can erase them with Gudodama just like and normal chakra.
If you do not understand it's a more powerful form of chakra and still chakra nontheless, every jutsu in naruto requires chakra. whine about it. chakra=reiatsu
Gudodama can erase anything including attacks from the normal chakra, but they cannot erase attacks from the Senjutsu chakra because it is filled with natural energies that the characters from Bleach do not have.
@areneacaulem: I repeat to you once again that the characters from Bleach do not have natural energies, so they cannot be in any way = Senjutsu because it mixes two different energies together, it is not just a more powerful chakra, natural energy is mixed with it, which is not a chakra. How you still do not understand this.
@areneacaulem: Senjutsu is a chakra that mixes with natural energies, which is not a chakra, a lot of brains are not needed to understand such a simple thing.
@lexa59: You wanking senjutsu is like me wanking bleachs transcendent reitsu.
I only write to you that Senjutsu mixes two different energies together, which unfortunately you cannot understand even with the explanations from the manga.
A lot of misconceptions being thrown around on this thread.
Energy equalization essentially means zero Kido or Getsugas will work on Obito due his status/immunity as a Juubi jin, the absorption powers of the Rinnegan, and the nullifying properties of TSOs. The fact that both he and Kakashi have intangibility here will make them incredibly difficult to hit as well.
Yeah many characters in bleach have resistance to powernull the varrier around the seririte nullifies and erases spirit energy. Many charaters have broken through causally including aizen and ichigo. Aizen also neg the kotosu which is suppose to be immune to spirit energy attatcks. So theirs no reason for the duo to not be able to harm juubito.
Shinigami have "non-physical interaction" in the sense that they can interact with non-corporeal beings made out of the same type of matter as them (reishi). I don't know where along the way people decided that this allowed them to passively negate spatial intangibility.
Souls in bleach can bypass physical bodies and objects. Which i showed earlier. I agree they can't interact with obito because his intangibility is teleporting parts of his body to another dimension. But still gets blitzed before he can do anything
Also, Shinigami are not intangible. To my knowledge, the Viz translation actually got it wrong here: Hollows and Shinigami are very much tangible due to the high reishi densities of their souls. Chad had zero spiritual awareness (could not see or sense souls) but was still able to interact with them. Even in the first arc, we see Ichigo being flung through walls by his opponents; he didn't just phase through them. And Rukia says as much
Gallery
Mate they have been shown to bypass walls and physical objects. Souls can both harm and bypass physical objects if they so choose. It's also stated their invulnerable to physical attacks
Gallery
Gallery
Tokinada's Kyoka Suigetsu failing against characters with high reiatsu isn't a feat of illusion resistance for those characters. It's a weakness of Tokinada's ability, which is literally noted in the passage. Just because Tokinada's ability has this weakness, doesn't mean this weakness applies to illusions from other verses. Genjutsu is shown to work on stronger characters. Kurama and Naruto are put under genjutsu multiple times by characters with far less chakra than them.
Tailed beast are weak against genjustu this is stated through out the series. That's not a feat also tokinadas KS can work on plp stronger than him. Just not plp far stronger. Also this is how reiastu works it someone if someone is far stronger the weaker persons hax is irrelevant. In equal energies this should apply.
There's no evidence that zanpakuto negate physical durability. This is another argument that gets brought up, but there are no examples of this being the case. Would Superman get one-shotted by Nanao because his Kryptonian durability isn't soul-based? Obviously not. Surprised that people are literally still bringing this up even when energies are equalized, although they don't need to be for this argument to be weak.
These scans disagree
Gallery
OT: This is a closer fight than most are giving it credit for. Bleach team has the stat advantage (though still iffy on the speed scaling being used here), but Naruto team has the hax advantage (Kamui, genjutsu, TSOs, absorption). Leaning toward Bleach team, but not a bad match.
nlf to say they can absorb attacks much stronger than them do you think obito can absorb a biju bomb?
I never needed the explanation, I know nature energy and chakra are 2 different things but when combined it makes sage chakra which is still chakra. that the point I have been making.
And no, you didn't just try to explain, you intentionally tried to say that since bleach don't have natural energy, they can't touch Obito, but they don't need it sense it equalized plus as shown by guy you don't even need sage chakra to hurt the guy.
If they don't have natural energies, then their attacks are useless against Gudodama as long as Obito himself can use spatial impalpability. Even 4 Mega Bijuudama filled with Senjutsu didn't do anything Gudodama Obito.
It's not that I'm not listening , I just don't understand how your explanation prove that it isn't chakra. at the end of the day Chakra (which includes sage chakra because it's still chakra) is equal to Reiatsu.
The fact that attacks of this level will not do anything against Obito.
Yeah many characters in bleach have resistance to powernull the varrier around the seririte nullifies and erases spirit energy. Many charaters have broken through causally including aizen and ichigo.
The barrier isn't absolute. A basic meteor with no special attributes or resistances overpowered it. Characters from the beginning of the SS arc were able to create sufficiently dense spirit energy to punch a hole through that weak barrier. These characters aren't resistant to power null; the barrier just fails against anything that's too strong.
Aizen also neg the kotosu which is suppose to be immune to spirit energy attatcks. So theirs no reason for the duo to not be able to harm juubito.
And yet Kototsu was destroyed by an energy-based attack. This means it's clearly not immune to reiatsu; only that Aizen's was stronger than any reiatsu ever used against it before. And no one said the duo couldn't harm Juubito, only that energy-based attacks would be ineffective.
Souls in bleach can bypass physical bodies and objects. Which i showed earlier.
Someone with zero spiritual awareness (let alone any spiritual interaction abilities) physically touched a Hollow. Rukia confirmed that even low-level Hollows have reishi compositions so dense that they're tangible. The reishi densities of Ichigo or Aizen's souls would be far greater, so no they don't just bypass physical objects.
Gallery
Here is Ichigo getting smashed through a regular wall in the Living World. He didn't phase through it.
Mate they have been shown to bypass walls and physical objects. Souls can both harm and bypass physical objects if they so choose. It's also stated their invulnerable to physical attacks
Neither of the examples you posted are relevant to this match. You show Orihime being given special equipment to bypass physical objects. You show Urahara using special equipment (skull mark) to put Ichigo in soul form. This is not evidence for intangible Shinigami, which has already been disproven. I'm not even going to address that last part.
Tailed beast are weak against genjustu this is stated through out the series. That's not a feat
Source.
also tokinadas KS can work on plp stronger than him. Just not plp far stronger. Also this is how reiastu works it someone if someone is far stronger the weaker persons hax is irrelevant.
Yes, because these hax become limited based on the energy difference between the opponent and the user. That's how most hax in Bleach work. Most hax in other verses are not limited this way, and don't care about a difference in raw power. That's why it's a weakness of Tokinada's hax. Professor X's telepathy or Dio's World don't function based on how much strength or reiatsu their opponent has, unlike Tokinada's which falls apart against high reiatsu.
These scans disagree
None of those scans show what you're implying. One is Rukia using special equipment to put Ichigo in soul form. The second is a Hollow doing the same to Orihime. The third are people with zero spirit energy being soul-sucked by Yammy's Gonzui, which even Tatsuki survived. The fourth is Aizen exploding humans with his reiatsu. The fifth is Urahara once again using special equipment to put Ichigo in soul form.
None of these show zanpakuto completely bypassing physical durability to deal direct damage to the soul. The entire battle with the Fullbringers shows that this idea is nonsense.
nlf to say they can absorb attacks much stronger than them do you think obito can absorb a biju bomb?
The arguments you've made so far make it very clear you don't know what NLFs are, otherwise you'd recognize how many you tried to use. There's nothing about Ichigo's Getsuga or Aizen's Kido that make them magically resistant to absorption.
@lexa59: Aizen has survived being completely erased from existence by Mugetsu, this includes his brain, he cannot be killed by anything in Soul Society including the Sokyoku, Yamamoto’s Bankai and other methods of execution. Sniping his head off can be easily avoided, but even if he did, Aizen would just regenerate.
Secondly, the scans you’ve posted are Madara and other characters reacting to teleblitzes, however in the scan I posted Madara states that Sasuke is too fast, he is unable to dodge and then is bifurcated.
Aizen and Ichigo who are far above Obito in speed blitze and one shot Obito, before he can react. Kakashi can run but dies eventually.
Kakashi solos the verse and Juubito with DMS literally breathes and busts the verse via Reitsu crush.
Not only are both several magnitudes faster than anything in bleach, they are several magnitudes more hax'd, completely negate anything either could do including the Genin level KS, and absolutely oneshot with anything in their in-character arsenal. Even with the unfounded notion that Aizen can survive having his head dimensionally seperated from his body they simply seal him without any effort involved as ANY tailed beast > Aizen. Honestly there is no reason Juubito simply cant absorb them like Ywach did.
Nobody in bleach is even close to High end MHS let alone LS, Nobody in bleach is more durable than Mountain level let alone multi-continental, and nobody in bleach can even damage Juubito besides maybe Lillie with x/y Axis. This is a disgusting mismatch.
@ninjarizer: Aizen has survived being completely erased from existence by Mugetsu, this includes his brain, he cannot be killed by anything in Soul Society including the Sokyoku, Yamamoto’s Bankai and other methods of execution.Sniping his head off can be easily avoided, but even if he did, Aizen would just regenerate.
To begin with, he was not erased, but almost divided into two halves, there is no need to give him a regeneration that he never showed.
Secondly, the scans you’ve posted are Madara and other characters reacting to teleblitzes, however in the scan I posted Madara states that Sasuke is too fast, he is unable to dodge and then is bifurcated.
Sasuke so fast that a weakened basic Naruto can fight with him.
I published Madara's exploits so that you could see his complete drain for the sake of the plot where the author wanted to show Madara's high regeneration, but at the same time reduced his reaction and speed, although Madara without Juubi easily defeated Tobirama which used Hiraishin teleport
Aizen and Ichigo who are far above Obito in speed blitze and one shot Obito, before he can react. Kakashi can run but dies eventually.
Obito, who casually reacted to Minato KM2 + Hiraishin and tore off his arm, also instantly attached a Gudodama to him. While this Ichigo can't even react to weaklings, even Orihime's reaction speed is higher than his. Jerking off crosses all boundaries.
Log in to comment