Discuss and Debunk a feat with a Viner

@Picard said:

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

This is stupid statement for one simple reason: evolution doesn't have direction! It is simply an adaptation to very the specific type of environment

I don't know how someone can understand that? So telling that humans will somday be just like Cap America is today, is flat out wrong.

Dude, reread the last 4 pages of me and Shawnbaby. You are repeating something that was discussed for 5 or so pages. Thank you very much.

@Jayfournines:

Another scan from Dormammu.

@SlimJ87D: Both the feat presented as not as impressive as they make it sound.

1. Superboy Prime's retcon punch: It was revealed that before Superboy even punched through reality, the reality itself was already crumbling. The scan posted below is from Infinite Crisis, Issue 02, Page 18, third panel (so if anyone wants to check it out they are more than welcome).

1. He survived a guardian's explosion: this argument is undermined by 2 simple facts:

a. Prime was actually KOed by the blast

Green Lantern Volume 4, Issue 35 (pages 50-56)

Gallery

b. Hal Jordan, alongside Sinestro and Atrocitus did exactly the same thing. The difference being, they were neither Koed nor did they show any sign of real damage. And this was the most powerful guardian (Krona) who at the time was wielding all 7 emotional entity.

Gallery

hope this helps.

PS. sorry had to edit the OP 3 times, my scans kept disappearing. I think comicvine hates me =(. You will probably get 3 pms so.....

@SlimJ87D:

I raised it because a user on this site was debating on a Darkseid thread a while back, and tried to claim that the incident in Superman/Batmanwhere he hits Darkseid hard enough to make him bleed (for the love of god, Loeb) is somehow not PIS because "Batman sometimes hurts people he shouldn't be able to".

First off, nice thread, and so far it looks to be running a bit smoother than the one Binder tried making.

Now, from the above quote, I assume that was me involved? I do remember making a statement like that, I believe while arguing with Dex_Star, and I don't remember exactly how it was phrased. However, I believe you interpreted it in exactly the opposite way intended. Batman kicking DS is absolutely PIS. I was not arguing that it made some kind of in-universe sense because Batman has performed PIS elsewhere, my intention was simply that this kind of crap does come up in comics, so we shouldn't be completely surprised by a writer or artist letting something like this happen (especially a character like Batman).

The Spectre incident is, admittedly, a poor example, but I could not think of any other Batman specific examples off the top of my head, as he's not someone I actually follow much (finding examples from Marvel would likely be easier), and Dex_Star was not a poster I respected enough to go that far out of my way for.

And for the record, I believe the whole controversy of Darkseid getting kicked was Dex was the one saying the kick from Batman was perfectly valid, and was therefore proof that Darkseid had been weakened (this was important, because a couple of pages later Darkseid is hurt by Superman, and Dex just couldn't accept that happening to a full strength DS). Actually, I have seen a couple of posters claim that Darkseid was weakened at that point, but this ignores that it is VERY explicitly stated his powers had been restored a page before Batman attacked him.

@Jayfournines: It looks like Jim already answered this, but Zeus is not regarded as Odin's equal merely because they are both skyfathers, but because it has been stated over and over in the comics that they are. So far, Zeus doesn't seem to have any high end feats that compare to Odin's, but then, he also doesn't seem to have any low-end feats to actually prove he is weaker.

@drgnx: Well, if we're proposing theories as to why a PC kryptonian like SBP seems weaker than he used to, I would say it is entirely possible that the modern DCU simply operates on a somewhat different (much more coherent, most of the time) laws of physics than the PC DCU did, which simply don't allow for totally ludicrous things like sneezing away solar systems.

Maybe that's part of why SBP hates and whines about it being the "wrong universe" and such all the time; it doesn't run on the trippy LSD physics he was used to, so he can't get away with the same kinds of shenanigans. Might also explain why he apparently had no idea how to reign his strength in during IC when he started ripping people apart by accident.

@Picard: Yeah, I get the feeling Slim doesn't care much though, figuring that Cap's attributes are his attributes, regardless of how evolution may or may not play out for humanity. You are right of course, the statement itself is, IMO, about as wrong as saying Hulk can create "slow" thunderclaps. Particularly since marvel attributes even things like Colossus, Nightcrawler, or Magneto's power to a naturally occurring mutation within the human genome (I also believe mutants are more properly referred to as homo sapiens superior, not just homo superior).

@Freefa11: There's no real problem with discussing evolution, but I think people are nitpicking and misinterpreting the meaning behind Ed Brubaker's post about Captain America being a enhanced human.

Ed Brubaker's statement

The statement: Captain America is enhanced human.

The proof: His on panel feat of outrunning Daredevil and beating the Punisher who had a head start up a flight of stairs while receiving a sucker strike.

What's not the Argument: Captain America is the end of human evolution.

What Ed Brubaker is not trying to prove: There is no statement that Ed is trying to use evolution as actual proof that Captain America is a enhanced human nor is he trying to prove that Captain America is the end of human evolution. Ed Brubaker is a writer, and he tries to explain why Captain America is the way he is in a fictional Universe, the 616 universe where he is "The One Above All." The part about evolution can be seen as fictional and part of his creative writing where he sees the Humans in the 616 Universe evolving in a series of steps. In no way is he trying to use this statement as factual proof, and this is the part I think people aren't understanding.

Analysis of what Ed Brubaker said

This is the way I interpreted what Ed Brubaker meant.

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human [A lot of anthropologist doctors, not MD doctors please comic vine people don't take this out of context, define humans as Homo Sapiens, the stage that we are at right now, so it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of our species evolution] potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like [the use of the word "like" here clearly shows that it's the closes thing he can compare Captain America's enhancements to] an evolutionary next-step, basically [the use of the word "basically" leaves it open to interpretation]. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

Conclusion

I understand why his use of the word evolution upset Shawnbaby and Picard, but again it's the only thing he could compare it too off the top of his head. His main point still stands though, regardless of what he compares the enhancements to, is that Captain America is above an Olympic Athlete. So lets discuss evolution if you guys would like, but lets not misinterpret what Ed Brubaker meant by using a term. If we can't agree on what Ed Brubaker meant, then lets just agree that feat wise, Captain America is far above an olympic athlete and should be considered enhanced.

@Killemall: I know exactly what you mean! It's Parchment v2 that causes the deletion of things in spoiler blocks. Be careful when you edit text.

Guys, I will work on indexing this thread tomorrow to get it more organized.

@Picard said:

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

This is stupid statement for one simple reason: evolution doesn't have direction! It is simply an adaptation to very the specific type of environment

I don't know how someone can understand that? So telling that humans will somday be just like Cap America is today, is flat out wrong.

According to the Evoltionaries, Mutants were the next and last step in the homo sapien evolutionary ladder. After mutants Humans were supposed to become extinct. I don't understand the thought process in putting so much stock in one writers words about a character who has had and many writers.

@Binder_full_of_Women: To build off of your post I would like to add this. Notice how anthropologist play off of the word human as homo sapiens in our long evolutionary chain. Now notice how marvel plays off of this with the mutants. The mutants no longer go by the word human, they often call themselves "mutants." Like magneto and many others, they don't consider themselves homo sapiens, they consider themselves homo sapien superiors, or just homo superiors. I think magneto or some of the mutants even describe themselves as the next evolutionary chain, so in that sense they mean that they are the next step of evolution and are no longer homo sapiens.

This is actually a great article to read. http://marvel.wikia.com/Homo_Superior

It has over 20 references. And lists related links with even more references.

Links and References

• Homo sapiens (Humans)
• Homo mermanus (Atlanteans)
• Homo inhumanus (Inhumans)
• Homo aeternus (Eternals)
• Homo deviare (Deviants)
• Shi'ar
• Celestials
• Proposition X
• Decimation
• Registration Acts

1. ↑Uncanny X-Men #254
2. ↑New X-Men #114
3. ↑New X-Men Vol 2 #20
4. ↑New X-Men Vol 2 #21
5. ↑X-Factor Vol 3 #23
6. ↑X-Men Vol 3 #31
7. ↑X-Factor Vol 3 #11
8. ↑Uncanny X-Men #417- #420
9. ↑Nation X #2
10. ↑ X-Factor Vol 3 #28
11. ↑X-Men Vol 2 #202
12. ↑Great Lakes Avengers #4
13. ↑X-Men: Giant-Size #1
14. ↑New Mutants Vol 2 #12
15. ↑New X-Men Vol 2 #1
16. ↑New Mutants Vol 3 #14
17. ↑New Mutants Vol 3 #21
18. ↑X-Men: Legacy #244
19. ↑X-Men: Deadly Genesis #6
20. ↑FF #13

@SlimJ87D said:

@Scarlet_Spyder said:

I have one I'd like to see discussed, but I don't have the scans and I am sure someone does. The whole, pre-52 Deathstroke tags speedsters bit.

I have seen a scan where Kid Flash seemed to be running around toying with Slade, and Slade to me looks to be using that calculating talent of his to calculate where KF would travel to and then blasted some ground in front of KF, not actually tagging him directly.

The other scan is where he blasts I think it was Wally who for some reason was on the ground and looking the other direction talking to a cop, then DS runs around a corner, and sets up his staff, which Wally then runs around the corner and trips over.

Both instances that I have seen show some amount of setup/prep/calculation against speedsters not going all out, and are less about him actually pulling out some amazing amount of speed and reflex to actually tag a speedster.

So, can someone prove or disprove this? I am curious to learn the truth of these "feats".

This one is easy. It's all PIS. The Flashes are only using 1/10 of their abilities. There is absolutely no way Deathstroke should be able to tag or even if he did, harm the Flashes. The Speed force is suppose to increase their durability, that's hwy Wally can take a hit from Mogul, and it's suppose to place them in a time where people are motionless and not even moving. They're like statues.



So it doesn't make sense unless the Flashes are not speeding up their minds but just running. And lowering their durability down.

It says as clear as day that Wally wasn't hit because of his reflexes. Which means he wasn't hurt because Mongul barely hit him. As for your second picture, Wally wasn't in the speedforce. If he was Superman nor anyone else would ave been able to see him because he would have been in a separate dimension. Wally wasn't using his full speed when he was being mind controlled (which you argued) so why would he use the speed force to eat and talk to superman in a restaurant? Use of the speed force turns flash into energy (which you also argued) so you should know he isn't using the speed force in either case.

@Binder_full_of_Women: Wally was barely hit yet he flies into concrete and blood comes out of his mouth? The point is very clear that the speed force increases Wally's durability.

I do not understand your second argument, at all. I did not say they were in the speed force there, that isn't even Wally, it's Barry, and I'm using the scan to show how the Flashes are when they use their power to its full extent and how Deathstroke stabbing them doesn't make sense.

These scans were used to debunk Deathstroke can tag the Flashes and to show it is PIS.

Plead read the actual post instead of just looking at the scans. If you are trying to prove Deathstroke tagging flashes as valid then address that.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: To build off of your post I would like to add this. Notice how anthropologist play off of the word human as homo sapiens in our long evolutionary chain. Now notice how marvel plays off of this with the mutants. The mutants no longer go by the word human, they often call themselves "mutants." Like magneto and many others, they don't consider themselves homo sapiens, they consider themselves homo sapien superiors, or just homo superiors. I think magneto or some of the mutants even describe themselves as the next evolutionary chain, so in that sense they mean that they are the next step of evolution and are no longer homo sapiens.

This is actually a great article to read. http://marvel.wikia.com/Homo_Superior

It has over 20 references. And lists related links with even more references.

I fail to see what this had to do with my statement. Marvel has already revealed that Mutants are the final evolutionary step for Humans. Which would mean the comment about Steve Rogers is inaccurate however you want to cut it. Mutants are the final evolutionary step to Humans. After them Homo Sapiens will be no more. Arguing about the different naming between the two species is about about as relevant as the different naming between Archaic Homo Sapiens and Homo Sapiens.

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

It says as clear as day that Wally wasn't hit because of his reflexes. Which means he wasn't hurt because Mongul barely hit him.

Mongul barely hit him? Not only does the scan show Mongul squarely hitting Wally and blood around Wally's mouth, there is also the internal monologue "That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw to breakfast cereal." It clearly shows that the Speed Force lets Wally tank harder hits than he could have before.

@Binder_full_of_Women said: As for your second picture, Wally wasn't in the speedforce. If he was Superman nor anyone else would ave been able to see him because he would have been in a separate dimension. Wally wasn't using his full speed when he was being mind controlled (which you argued) so why would he use the speed force to eat and talk to superman in a restaurant? Use of the speed force turns flash into energy (which you also argued) so you should know he isn't using the speed force in either case.

That's Barry, not Wally. And the scan in question is used to show the extent of the Flash's speed, thus demonstrating that Deathstroke's tagging of Wally in Identity Crisis was PIS given that Wally was clearly moving slower than the speed of sound as multiple explosions from Slade's bombs went off before Wally reached Slade. Slim didn't say that the Flash was in the speed force, he said that if Wally were moving at a much faster speed, Slade wouldn't be able to touch him. A misinterpretation on your part unfortunately.

If you need a picture of Wally doing it, everything is absolutely motionless, even Wonder Woman who is super fast is not at the same state and time placement as Wally is.

He scans every ones face in a picosecond.

So again, this happening is PIS.

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: To build off of your post I would like to add this. Notice how anthropologist play off of the word human as homo sapiens in our long evolutionary chain. Now notice how marvel plays off of this with the mutants. The mutants no longer go by the word human, they often call themselves "mutants." Like magneto and many others, they don't consider themselves homo sapiens, they consider themselves homo sapien superiors, or just homo superiors. I think magneto or some of the mutants even describe themselves as the next evolutionary chain, so in that sense they mean that they are the next step of evolution and are no longer homo sapiens.

This is actually a great article to read. http://marvel.wikia.com/Homo_Superior

It has over 20 references. And lists related links with even more references.

I fail to see what this had to do with my statement. Marvel has already revealed that Mutants are the final evolutionary step for Humans. Which would mean the comment about Steve Rogers is inaccurate however you want to cut it. Mutants are the final evolutionary step to Humans. After them Homo Sapiens will be no more. Arguing about the different naming between the two species is about about as relevant as the different naming between Archaic Homo Sapiens and Homo Sapiens.

I do not think you read my post above.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Freefa11: There's no real problem with discussing evolution, but I think people are nitpicking and misinterpreting the meaning behind Ed Brubaker's post about Captain America being a enhanced human.

Ed Brubaker's statement

The statement: Captain America is enhanced human.

The proof: His on panel feat of outrunning Daredevil and beating the Punisher who had a head start up a flight of stairs while receiving a sucker strike.

What's not the Argument: Captain America is the end of human evolution.

What Ed Brubaker is not trying to prove: There is no statement that Ed is trying to use evolution as actual proof that Captain America is a enhanced human nor is he trying to prove that Captain America is the end of human evolution. Ed Brubaker is a writer, and he tries to explain why Captain America is the way he is in a fictional Universe, the 616 universe where he is "The One Above All." The part about evolution can be seen as fictional and part of his creative writing where he sees the Humans in the 616 Universe evolving in a series of steps. In no way is he trying to use this statement as factual proof, and this is the part I think people aren't understanding.

Analysis of what Ed Brubaker said

This is the way I interpreted what Ed Brubaker meant.

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human [A lot of anthropologist doctors, not MD doctors please comic vine people don't take this out of context, define humans as Homo Sapiens, the stage that we are at right now, so it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of our species evolution] potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like [the use of the word "like" here clearly shows that it's the closes thing he can compare Captain America's enhancements to] an evolutionary next-step, basically [the use of the word "basically" leaves it open to interpretation]. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

Conclusion

I understand why his use of the word evolution upset Shawnbaby and Picard, but again it's the only thing he could compare it too off the top of his head. His main point still stands though, regardless of what he compares the enhancements to, is that Captain America is above an Olympic Athlete. So lets discuss evolution if you guys would like, but lets not misinterpret what Ed Brubaker meant by using a term. If we can't agree on what Ed Brubaker meant, then lets just agree that feat wise, Captain America is far above an olympic athlete and should be considered enhanced.

Case in point, Captain America is enhanced human.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: Wally was barely hit yet he flies into concrete and blood comes out of his mouth? The point is very clear that the speed force increases Wally's durability.

I do not understand your second argument, at all. I did not say they were in the speed force there, that isn't even Wally, it's Barry, and I'm using the scan to show how the Flashes are when they use their power to its full extent and how Deathstroke stabbing them doesn't make sense.

These scans were used to debunk Deathstroke can tag the Flashes and to show it is PIS.

Plead read the actual post instead of just looking at the scans. If you are trying to prove Deathstroke tagging flashes as valid then address that.

Instead of the second option of having his skull turned to dust by a superman level opponent. What's batman excuse for taking hit from people with 10 ton strength? It's a comic book. The point must be that you don't have a shred of evidence to even suggest Wally's durability was increased. Your edited picture says that Wally avoided damage because the speed force increased his reflexes not his durability.

Except Bart wasn't using his speed to its full extent. If he was he would have time traveled or would have traveled into the speed force. Deathstroke has beaten different flash's on a few occasions. This can easily be explained by saying they weren't using their full speed. But then again Deathstroke has said he's just that fast. Either way, Bart wasn't using his full speed in Superman 709. Please use actual facts instead of trying to wank.

@Binder_full_of_Women: What?

@SlimJ87D: "Ed Brubaker is a writer, and he tries to explain why Captain America is the way he is in a fictional Universe, the 616 universe where he is "The One Above All." The part about evolution can be seen as fictional and part of his creative writing where he sees the Humans in the 616 Universe evolving in a series of steps."

Except the human race last step in evolution is the mutants according to other writers at Marvel.

This is the way I interpreted what Ed Brubaker meant.

So basically you're entire "case and point" is based on your interpretation on what someone else meant to say.

@Lvenger said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

It says as clear as day that Wally wasn't hit because of his reflexes. Which means he wasn't hurt because Mongul barely hit him.

Mongul barely hit him?

"That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes"

This is the type of "debating" I meant to keep out of my thread, because all it is is wanking. The flash says he survived the attack because of his reflexes. Yet somehow it should be translated to speedforce enhanced durability? Where does it say that in the scan? Perhaps if the poster of the picture would have provided an unedited scan with a comic title and issue number; we would know the entire context and people wouldn't need to wank their way into a feat.

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D: "Ed Brubaker is a writer, and he tries to explain why Captain America is the way he is in a fictional Universe, the 616 universe where he is "The One Above All." The part about evolution can be seen as fictional and part of his creative writing where he sees the Humans in the 616 Universe evolving in a series of steps."

Except the human race last step in evolution is the mutants according to other writers at Marvel.

This is the way I interpreted what Ed Brubaker meant.

So basically you're entire "case and point" is based on your interpretation on what someone else meant to say.

Um no, the fact that he does this.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I don't understand how Flash can get punched into buildings without having a increase in durability.

So far, I do not enjoy the way you misinterpret my posts or rather not even read my posts. This is evident as to the way you interpreted my Flash post and something about being inside of the speed force which I never said. If this continues, I think you are better off asking for a MOD to unlock your "wank" post and posting in there.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: What?

" It's a comic book. The point must be that you don't have a shred of evidence to even suggest Wally's durability was increased. Your edited picture says that Wally avoided damage because the speed force increased his reflexes not his durability."

"Except Bart wasn't using his speed to its full extent. If he was he would have time traveled or would have traveled into the speed force. Deathstroke has beaten different flash's on a few occasions. This can easily be explained by saying they weren't using their full speed. But then again Deathstroke has said he's just that fast. Either way, Bart wasn't using his full speed in Superman 709."

@Binder_full_of_Women:

I didn't have time to post or contribute to your old thread. But I am starting to understand while people didn't enjoy it much. I do no like or appreciate the way you conduct yourself or the way you debate. I don't know why you are here or what you are trying to prove but there must be a better place or another part of this forum or a different forum all together where people appreciate the way you conduct yourself. I'd appreciate it if you would post there. Thank you.

@SlimJ87D: All you did was mostly spam pictures of Steve running and flipping. It's a comic book, people without powers do those things all the time; Batman for one has does everything you just posted. The difference is Steve has heightened speed, reflexes, strength and durability. You didn't prove anything.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Binder_full_of_Women:

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I didn't have time to post or contribute to your old thread. But I am starting to understand while people didn't enjoy it much. I do no like or appreciate the way you conduct yourself or the way you debate. I don't know why you are here or what you are trying to prove but there must be a better place or another part of this forum or a different forum all together where people appreciate the way you conduct yourself. I'd appreciate it if you would post there. Thank you.

The biggest problem with my thread is that I only allowed actual evidence of claims while liberals wanted to allow wanking. A problem you solved here by allowing wank in place of evidence.

"Thats the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes" Yet still you claim the picture is proof that his durability was enhanced by the speed force? That contradicts the Flash, the comic writer and my eyesight. I did not realize correcting you meant that I was conducting myself in an unflattering manner. If that's the case you should be ready to hate me.

Are you trying to compare zoom and flash's fight to Superman and Doomsdays fight? Linda was also hit by a sonic boom and she didn't die. Are we to assume she tapped into the speed force as well? Your random pictures that you try and get to mean something don't mean anything. If you had actual on panel statements that the speed force enhanced durability you would have posted them by now and this wouldn't need to be debated.

@Binder_full_of_Women:Are you saying that Mongul didnt touch him, but he still flew backwards, was bleeding and said that the punch hurt

@dondave said:

@Binder_full_of_Women:Are you saying that Mongul didnt touch him, but he still flew backwards, was bleeding and said that the punch hurt

Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying Flash wasnt killed because he dodged the blunt of the blow. I've seen Steve Rogers take blows from Us Agent (who can lift 10 tons) because he managed to dodge the brunt of the blow. This happens in comics all the time. "That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes" Flash said he survived the blow because of his reflexes not durability. I'm not entirely sure why this is even being debated.

@Binder_full_of_Women:But he was still hit, It may not have been a full on hit but Mongul is as strong as superman so it should have had more effect if his durability wasn't increased

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D: All you did was mostly spam pictures of Steve running and flipping. It's a comic book, people without powers do those things all the time; Batman for one has does everything you just posted. The difference is Steve has heightened speed, reflexes, strength and durability. You didn't prove anything.

Then prove it. Lets see you show us a scan of batman running at 60Km/ hr.

Its easy to say you did not prove anything, when you are blatantly arguing what you like and cherry picking the showing.

Wasnt it your very rule that if you want to make a point do so using unedited scans and issue number, i dont see any issue number nor scan on any of your post here? Are we contradicting ourselves?

@dondave said:

@Binder_full_of_Women:But he was still hit, It may not have been a full on hit but Mongul is as strong as superman so it should have had more effect if his durability wasn't increased

"before the speed force revved up my reflexes" Batman should have been crippled when he got his spine stomped on by someone with multiple ton strength. Batman has survived punches and heat vision blasts from a Maxwell Lord controlled Superman. If Flash could increase his durability then someone would have posted on panel evidence that he could. Instead people are "interpreting" things differently then they normally would to say flash can do something. I'm not saying he can't. I'm saying no one has posted anything close to actual evidence to show that he can.

@Killemall said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D: All you did was mostly spam pictures of Steve running and flipping. It's a comic book, people without powers do those things all the time; Batman for one has does everything you just posted. The difference is Steve has heightened speed, reflexes, strength and durability. You didn't prove anything.

Then prove it. Lets see you show us a scan of batman running at 60Km/ hr.

Its easy to say you did not prove anything, when you are blatantly arguing what you like and cherry picking the showing.

Wasnt it your very rule that if you want to make a point do so using unedited scans and issue number, i dont see any issue number nor scan on any of your post here? Are we contradicting ourselves?

The post I replied to didn't have any scans of Captain America running 60km/hr. So why would I need to provide this evidence this Batman? It's very easy to say you did not prove anything when some people just spam a bunch of pictures expecting it to mean anything other than whats shown in the pictures. Somehow you've manage to see things that aren't there. Are you like the Psych fella on the USA network?

My rule was to provide those three things when wanting to counter a claim. But you see I always had actual on panel evidence of everyone of my claims. Here I only have to quote back whats already in the scans that have been posted to debunk wank. So no it's not a contradiction.

@Binder_full_of_Women:

He can run a mile a minute. so in 60 mins he would have ran 60 miles.

  @dondave: yepp andd thatss from one of my post

@SlimJ87D: yh, sorry

@SlimJ87D said:

@dondave: yepp andd thatss from one of my post

So is this "That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes"

@Binder_full_of_Women: what does that have to do with anything

@dondave: No problem. It was actually more of a thank you for actually paying attention to my post rather than misinterpreting it ignoring it all together. Thank you.

@dondave said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: what does that have to do with anything

What does Captain America running 1 mile in an a minute have to do with him being "like" the next step of Human evolution?

@Binder_full_of_Women:Captain America in my interpretation has evolved in the pinnacle of what a human can be without becoming a mutant. The one mile in a minute thing came about because people were comparing Cap to Batman

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@Lvenger said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

It says as clear as day that Wally wasn't hit because of his reflexes. Which means he wasn't hurt because Mongul barely hit him.

Mongul barely hit him?

"That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes"

This is the type of "debating" I meant to keep out of my thread, because all it is is wanking. The flash says he survived the attack because of his reflexes. Yet somehow it should be translated to speedforce enhanced durability? Where does it say that in the scan? Perhaps if the poster of the picture would have provided an unedited scan with a comic title and issue number; we would know the entire context and people wouldn't need to wank their way into a feat.

I'm sorry but actual debating is considered wanking? No wonder you kept it out of your thread. You're not actually that good of it. And what does the issue number or title have to do with the scan? It's the feat that matters and its analysis of said feat. It doesn't matter what title it occurs in as that doesn't contribute to the feat. It's simply where the feat occurred.

@dondave said:

@Binder_full_of_Women:Captain America in my interpretation has evolved in the pinnacle of what a human can be without becoming a mutant. The one mile in a minute thing came about because people were comparing Cap to Batman

The fact is Captain America is written to be "peak" human. How can anyone argue if Captain America is peak human or super human. There is only one peak human, and that's Captain America.

@Lvenger said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@Lvenger said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

It says as clear as day that Wally wasn't hit because of his reflexes. Which means he wasn't hurt because Mongul barely hit him.

Mongul barely hit him?

"That's the kind of shot that would have turned my jaw into breakfast cereal before the speed force revved up my reflexes"

This is the type of "debating" I meant to keep out of my thread, because all it is is wanking. The flash says he survived the attack because of his reflexes. Yet somehow it should be translated to speedforce enhanced durability? Where does it say that in the scan? Perhaps if the poster of the picture would have provided an unedited scan with a comic title and issue number; we would know the entire context and people wouldn't need to wank their way into a feat.

I'm sorry but actual debating is considered wanking? No wonder you kept it out of your thread. You're not actually that good of it. And what does the issue number or title have to do with the scan? It's the feat that matters and its analysis of said feat. It doesn't matter what title it occurs in as that doesn't contribute to the feat. It's simply where the feat occurred.

You can put a pig in a dress it doesn't make it a Lady. There really shouldn't be a wonder as to why I kept it out because I explained it half a dozen times a page. Providing the comic title and issue number allows people to see the entire context for themselves. Remember when you posted Superman flying to Pluto as a light speed feat and it turned out to be out of context? Or when you posted a random picture from JLA 4 and then made up a feat that was never attempted let alone actually happened. It shows me who knows the material. Anyone can spam pictures they've seen in a thread. Not many have read the comic themselves and have a better understanding of the feat in question.

Just thought I'd address a few errors in your post

@Binder_full_of_Women said: Remember when you posted Superman flying to Pluto as a light speed feat and it turned out to be out of context?

He doesn't fly to Pluto, he flew to another solar system. That was the For Tomorrow feat wasn't it? Pluto's not in sight during those scans. And I have read that issue I assure you. It doesn't say where he was but the comic shows he wasn't in our solar system. He flew to another solar system to rescue Kyle Rayner from an alien fleet then flies back to Earth. That demonstrates FTL speed. Or maybe you're talking about the sun feat with Darkseid? He managed to fly Darkseid to the sun whilst having a conversation on the way.

@Binder_full_of_Women said: Or when you posted a random picture from JLA 4 and then made up a feat that was never attempted let alone actually happened. It shows me who knows the material. Anyone can spam pictures they've seen in a thread. Not many have read the comic themselves and have a better understanding of the feat in question.

I was misinformed and Killemall corrected me on that. I already deferred to him in that regard. It's not making something up if you go on the wrong information. It simply means the information they have isn't right.

@Binder_full_of_Women said: It shows me who knows the material. Anyone can spam pictures they've seen in a thread. Not many have read the comic themselves and have a better understanding of the feat in question.

Now you're sounding like an arrogant judge of all things battle forum related when you're nothing of the kind. Now that there's a proper version of your original thread, some actual debunking can take place, one with reasonable discussion rather than blindly labelling what people are saying as 'wank and putting fingers in your eyes when people try and correct you.

@Lvenger: I was referring to the scans you posted from Lex 2000. And we've been over the For tomorrow scans as well. If you read the issue then you would know Superman twice says he is a million miles from earth. If he flew to another solar system going twice the speed of light it would have still taken him years to get to the next solar system, all the while holding his breath. In For Tomorrow Superman was also cut by titanium; failed to to move faster than bullets.

"I was misinformed and Killemall corrected me on that. I already deferred to him in that regard. It's not making something up if you go on the wrong information. It simply means the information they have isn't right."

I corrected you before Killemall and you responded with the following

"Made up? I call bull on that. I was taking what I knew and applied it to the scenario. Don't you dare say I made up what I didn't know! Try thinking before you type another arrogant comment alright?"

But you didn't read the comic so you knew nothing. So how does knowing nothing turn into a feat of Strength for superman? Superman never attempted to move any part of Mageddon so that means you made it up. This would be one of the reasons why I ask for comic title and issue number.

Now you're sounding like an arrogant judge of all things battle forum related when you're nothing of the kind. Now that there's a proper version of your original thread, some actual debunking can take place, one with reasonable discussion rather than blindly labelling what people are saying as 'wank and putting fingers in your eyes when people try and correct you.

You ask, I tell and then you insult me? It is unfortunate that you mistake my cautiousness as arrogance. I did not judge you for making up those feats, I just reminded you that people (such as yourself) have made up feats. Because of this I would like to know the context. I'm not sure why this offends you, but I can see that it does. For every "claim" I made, I showed evidence to go with it. On panel statements from the character or the feat in full context. So if I post 2 pictures of superman himself saying he is not faster than light; a scan of Doctor light tagging superman with light while simultaneously saying "he's fast but not faster than light"; show Superman unable to avoid being hit by an explosion traveling at light speed, then I have provided enough to show he's not faster than light. So I expect more than just people showing me pictures of Superman flying and moving really fast and calling it superluminal movement.

@Lvenger: It's okay, we're all wankers here and we will perform wank debates. He can go and participate in a none wanker thread if he chooses to make one. Here I am wanking away with Countdown 48.

Not even sure why we are discussing the other thread. Its locked.

And continued discussion of it hete will only end up getting this one locked. It's pretty clear at this point what binder full of womens game is and it's just best for all concerned of we ignore his BS altogether. honestly he's not worth getting that worked up over.

@Killemall said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D: All you did was mostly spam pictures of Steve running and flipping. It's a comic book, people without powers do those things all the time; Batman for one has does everything you just posted. The difference is Steve has heightened speed, reflexes, strength and durability. You didn't prove anything.

Then prove it. Lets see you show us a scan of batman running at 60Km/ hr.

Its easy to say you did not prove anything, when you are blatantly arguing what you like and cherry picking the showing.

Wasnt it your very rule that if you want to make a point do so using unedited scans and issue number, i dont see any issue number nor scan on any of your post here? Are we contradicting ourselves?

Actually while Batman can't run at 40 mph, which is what 60 km/hr equates to, Steve running a mile in a minute equates to 60 mph or 80-85 km/hr, which no peak human, comicbook or real-life can hope to achieve. What that feat is basically saying is that Steve can run at cheetah speed. I think that statement itself shows that Steve is enhanced, not peak human.

@beatboks1: But you gotta admit that way to debate is cool from Blinder_full_of_fails. Anyone who disagrees with me is wanking, that sounds like a perfect counter in most debate.

@Killemall: NO DAMN IT! I was waiting to throw that joke out there once you guys got in here! Well I didn't think of adding the word Blind in there.

Hey, how come Betty wasn't in Avengers? And why did Banner's face change?

^^^LMAO!!

Bumpedoo!