Dick Grayson (Titans) vs MCU Melinda May

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phoenixdiamond616

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#1  Edited By phoenixdiamond616
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R1: H2H combat. Street clothes. Location takes place here:

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R2: Fight takes place at Titan's last episode motel room... both are able to use the location and what's in there for their advantage... Nightwing has a towel on (just as in episode 5), May has a bathrobe (just as how she was in Framework's spa)... (if things get interesting... do you guys thing this could have sexual results? lol... if so, who'd be dominant? 7u7).

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R3: Standard gear for Robin, May has an icer, a knife and a battle staff... They both have as well their combat suits... fight takes place at the Triskelion:

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anthp2000

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#2 anthp2000  Moderator  Online

I'll be very impressed if Robin is May level now.

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phoenixdiamond616

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@anthp2000: have you seen Titans yet? He is really impressive... a case could be made...

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#4 anthp2000  Moderator  Online

@phoenixdiamond616: No, but I'm planning to. I'm only aware of his combat showings up to E3.

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PayneInTheAss

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What has he done to put him near her level?

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phoenixdiamond616

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@payneintheass: he was soloing the Nuclear Family... I find it pretty impressive since they are really strong by themselves, and Dick also tanked a fall from a window landing in a car...

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AngelJax

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May

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Slade-Prime

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May mid-high diffs all rounds for now.

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deactivated-5f5eba8f0a2dd

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Dick, its not hard to beat May. All you have to be is Ward level.

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Veshark

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Robin's been impressive so far, but it's still way too early to tell if he can compete with May, who has a plethora of combat feats across five seasons. Robin has had like three combat showings across five meager episodes so far. I'm calling it for May, but that could change after the first season of Titans ends. Random thought though: would Robin's body armor protect again May's ICER, which is basically a one-shot weapon?

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americanspeeddemon

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Robin feat against the Nuclear family is possibly the best feat i've seen from an non powered marvel or dc live action character but I think he'll need a few more feats particularly something vs a skilled character before I can say he wins unarmed. With his gear I think he'd win.

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The_Justiciar

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#13  Edited By The_Justiciar

May wins h2h for sure. She is not losing to some punk edgy kid that thinks he's Batman, she's the goddamn Cavalry. One of SHIELD's finest.

And of course, TonyMartial is the only one who thinks otherwise.

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geekryan

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@the_magister: You don't even watch the show. As everyone else has said, the nuclear family feat is too good and you're getting annoyed by the fact that I'm saying its not hard.

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#16  Edited By The_Justiciar

@tonymartial: Why would I be annoyed?

I'm just pointing out that Robin can't compete with May on any level. And nobody besides you said "the nuclear family feat is too good," literally everyone other than you on this thread so far thinks that May & Ward are above Robin's level in hand to hand combat.

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@the_magister: Its just another passive aggressive comment from you. You're annoyed that I said Colleen could take May on the other thread and now this. She just doesn't impress me. Yet those threads blow up and get tons of responses, its just usually the same people who throw shade. May is not doing as well as Dick here. Or Ward. Enlighten me with feats.

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RBT

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May 1 and 2. I'll side with Dick for 3. His gear would likely overwhelm May.

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The_Justiciar

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#19  Edited By The_Justiciar

@tonymartial: Not being passive aggressive, just pointing out a fact...

You're going to have to give me feats or statements for the Nuclear family to explain why Robin doing that is impressive. As far as I know, they have good stats and zero skill or implied training. Decent feat, but it certainly doesn't put Robin anywhere near Melinda May.

Here we go. I'll give you some feats.

She cleared through an entire building of mercenaries in Bahrain.

May stomps three trained Primitives (all amped up on adrenaline-enhancements) after being ambushed by them:

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Keeps up with Ivanov LMDs (AIDA explicitly stated that LMDs have superhuman strength. And being an LMD herself, she could casually rip through a man's chest with a single punch as well as no-sell hits from mercs):

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Pretty much destroys the leader of the Remorath, stated to have earned his rank by being the most well trained killer among them:

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As a reminder, even fodder Remorath slaughtered SHIELD agents and could do stuff like this (dodging Daisy's quake blasts, probably high end aim dodging)

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Effortlessly humiliates S2 Skye, countering her attacks with one hand:

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The same Skye that can keep up with 5 skilled Alisha clones that are coordinated by a single mind:

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blackspidey2099

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And there ends the tale of TonyMartial.... Nice work @the_magister

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The_Justiciar

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#21  Edited By The_Justiciar
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Thatoneguy887

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Melinda both rounds....

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blackspidey2099

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@blackspidey2099: Thanks. Who do you have winning this match-up?

I can't say; I haven't watched a single episode of Titans as of yet.

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#24 anthp2000  Moderator  Online

Yeah May wins.

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Batvibe12

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May for now.

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Michaelbn

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I won't say a thing until first season's end (maybe second too).

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The_Justiciar

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#27  Edited By The_Justiciar

@anthp2000: Very, very surprised to see you say that.

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#28 anthp2000  Moderator  Online
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May

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The_Justiciar

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#30  Edited By The_Justiciar

bump

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@the_magister:

May stomps three trained Primitives (all amped up on adrenaline-enhancements) after being ambushed by them:

This isn't even impressive, Coulson was casually stomping Primitives too, they are nothing special.

Keeps up with Ivanov LMDs (AIDA explicitly stated that LMDs have superhuman strength. And being an LMD herself, she could casually rip through a man's chest with a single punch as well as no-sell hits from mercs):

LMDs have super strength, so therefore it's a good feat to keep up with them? What does that even mean.

Pretty much destroys the leader of the Remorath, stated to have earned his rank by being the most well trained killer among them:

I don't know much about Remoraths.

Effortlessly humiliates S2 Skye, countering her attacks with one hand:

That's an inconsistency for Skye then. Skye can stomp 5 Alisha Clones, yet May struggles and gets hit by 1 Alisha Clone.

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  1. From what I've seen from May, Dick should win.
  2. Not worth my acknowledgment.
  3. Robin fairly easily.
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1.May in a decent fight

2.LOL

3.Dick easily

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The_Justiciar

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#34  Edited By The_Justiciar

@subline said:

This isn't even impressive, Coulson was casually stomping Primitives too, they are nothing special.

Coulson's a good fighter, not sure why that should be held against Primitives... he can wreck fodder, has a good feat against Kara, is stated to be one of SHIELD's finest field agents, has a robotic arm that can smash through brick and crush metal pipes...

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These guys could easily take down SHIELD agents, they're respectable fodder at the least. Better than anyone I've seen Dick casually stomp in a group of 3, unless you have a feat suggesting otherwise.

LMDs have super strength, so therefore it's a good feat to keep up with them? What does that even mean.

Well they're superhuman in strength and durability, so it takes a certain level of skill to bypass that and beat them. Fighting a physically superior opponent is one way to measure skill.

That's an inconsistency for Skye then. Skye can stomp 5 Alisha Clones, yet May struggles and gets hit by 1 Alisha Clone.

That's a very low showing for May. On another occasion, she fodderized an Alisha clone. Also, it was implied that being under Hive's away gives Inhumans some better level of coordination and ability.

Fodderizes a clone
Fodderizes a clone

I don't know much about Remoraths.

Ok, here it is for starters.

They could tank Mack's hits, the same guy who could do this with what is basically a casual backhand:

Pay attention to what Mack does to the second guy
Pay attention to what Mack does to the second guy

I'll try to find the clip of the Remorath tanking Mack's hit later.

Dodge Quake blasts in a confined hallway
Dodge Quake blasts in a confined hallway

Before Daisy had full mastery of her powers, those blasts were fast enough to do this:

And these are fodder Remorath. I already showed above what happened when May fought the leader of the Remorath, stated to be the finest killer among them. He got wrecked by her.

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@the_magister:

Coulson's a good fighter, not sure why that should be held against Primitives... he can wreck fodder, has a good feat against Kara, is stated to be one of SHIELD's finest field agents, has a robotic arm that can smash through brick and crush metal pipes...

My point was that it was a Coulson level feat, Coulson can not beat Dick or come close to doing so.

These guys could easily take down SHIELD agents, they're respectable fodder at the least. Better than anyone I've seen Dick casually stomp in a group of 3, unless you have a feat suggesting otherwise.

Show me the shield feat, if you were referring to the one above that's not impressive as the Primitive just grabbed him from behind.

That's a very low showing for May. On another occasion, she fodderized an Alisha clone. Also, it was implied that being under Hive's away gives Inhumans some better level of coordination and ability.

So it's a low showing, fodderizing one clone isn't impressive anyway.

I'll wait to see the Remorath tanking feat first, also you should note that the guy Mack backhanded went in with the momentum of Coulson's push, who as you mentioned has a Prosthetic Hand.

Also, the Remorath was already flipping before she shot the Quake Blast.

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The_Justiciar

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#36  Edited By The_Justiciar

@subline:

My point was that it was a Coulson level feat, Coulson can not beat Dick or come close to doing so.

It's a feat for Coulson, not a feat against the Primitives. You do realize that Coulson can easily get the upper hand on Kara, a top level agent that herself can take out SHIELD agents easily. He can subdue an ex SHIELD assassin with his hands bound. He can shatter brick with his left hand, and hold back Lash (a superhuman) as well. He's stated to be one of SHIELD's best field agents.

Using Coulson to lowball the Primitives is not valid. And yeah, by feats, he can give Dick a good fight. You're assuming that he can't, therefore Primitives can't be good because he can beat them. Faulty logic.

Show me the shield feat, if you were referring to the one above that's not impressive as the Primitive just grabbed him from behind.

Nice lowball, but no. The Primitive didn't just grab him from behind, pay attention to the gif. He comes in from the front and subdues the SHIELD agent by putting him into a chokehold.

So it's a low showing, fodderizing one clone isn't impressive anyway.

Again, you are massively missing the point. I used her fodderizing one to show that the other feat is a low showing. But her fodderizing one wasn't my initial argument of May's superiority to Dick; it was her pretty much stomping Skye who could keep up with 5 such clones.

And now that you've admitted that the anti-feat is a low showing, you've basically acknowledged that May handily beating Skye is a valid feat (since the inconsistency you brought up is, per your own admission, not representative of May's standard abilities).

Robin is never doing what May did; she literally blocked everything with one hand, against an opponent capable of keeping up with 5 clones that can each dismantle a SHIELD agent.

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I'll wait to see the Remorath tanking feat first, also you should note that the guy Mack backhanded went in with the momentum of Coulson's push, who as you mentioned has a Prosthetic Hand.

Also, the Remorath was already flipping before she shot the Quake Blast.

Fodder Remorath tanks Mack's direct punch
Fodder Remorath tanks Mack's direct punch

Here's another striking feat for Mack:

Sends a mech flipping into the air with a powerful hit
Sends a mech flipping into the air with a powerful hit

True, it was an aim dodge. Still noteworthy since this type of opponent is borderline fodder for May.

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@the_magister:

It's a feat for Coulson, not a feat against the Primitives. You do realize that Coulson can easily get the upper hand on Kara, a top level agent that herself can take out SHIELD agents easily. He can subdue an ex SHIELD assassin with his hands bound. He can shatter brick with his left hand, and hold back Lash (a superhuman) as well. He's stated to be one of SHIELD's best field agents.

Using Coulson to lowball the Primitives is not valid. And yeah, by feats, he can give Dick a good fight. You're assuming that he can't, therefore Primitives can't be good because he can beat them. Faulty logic.

Show me the Kara beating Shield Agents feat.

Nice try at lowballing, but no. The Primitive didn't just grab him from behind, pay attention to the gif. He comes in from the front and subdues the SHIELD agent by putting him into a chokehold.

From what I can see the agent was facing sideways, then his gun is pushed and he is pulled. Do you have the full scene?

Again, you are massively missing the point. I used her fodderizing one to show that the other feat is a low showing. But her fodderizing one wasn't my initial argument of May's superiority to Dick; it was her pretty much stomping Skye who could keep up with 5 such clones.

I just checked the May feat, she didn't even stomp her. Skye hit her 3 times and even made her bleed.

True, it was an aim dodge. Still noteworthy since this type of opponent is borderline fodder for May.

Remorath's have been KOd by being smashed through glass, they aren't that durable. Dick could replicate these feats anyway.

I feel like we are getting very off topic, so I'm gonna bring up some Dick feats, because I feel like we're just discussing May's feats.

Dick straight up stomps 3 Members of the Nuclear Family, earlier you asked for a feat close to beating 3 Shield Agents. This is much much better. As the Nuclear Family have Superhuman strength being able to casually throw people very far and off of buildings with one hand. Tank hits from Dove. And casually stomp Hawk and Dove, also note Dove has great combat speed, as she moves like a blur and blitzes around 7-8 thugs.

Dick also has better physicals, as he has took being kicked by Superhumans out of a house and onto a car crippling it, clearly it didn't effect him much as he had already gone back to the apartment, got his briefcase and suited up all in 80 seconds, and then be fine to stomp 3 members of the nuclear family. He's also tanked stun sticks after being drugged. For strength he casually one shots thugs and makes them bleed badly with punches, he also casually throws Thugs with his grapple gun. Here he beats 10+ Guards right after being drugged in around a minute.

Loading Video...

Unless you can prove otherwise, May has never fought over a dozen opponents alone, let alone while drugged. Nor has she beaten 3 Superhumans on the Nuclear Family level. Dick's skill is around the same level as May, and his physicals are better. I don't see how she wins.

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The_Justiciar

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#38  Edited By The_Justiciar

@subline said:

Show me the Kara beating Shield Agents feat.

I think it's 2x22, can't find it on YouTube. But here's a feat for Kara against Skye:

Loading Video...

Coulson's definitely supposed to be an elite combatant, he had the definite upper hand on Kara. Using him to lowball the Primitives is kinda weird.

From what I can see the agent was facing sideways, then his gun is pushed and he is pulled. Do you have the full scene?

I don't have the full scene on hand, I can't find it anywhere on YouTube. Either way, there's another gif that should clear it up:

No Caption Provided

They were definitely facing them and then that guy's dispatched by the same Primitive that he's shooting at.

Remorath's have been KOd by being smashed through glass, they aren't that durable. Dick could replicate these feats anyway.

They were smashed into said glass by Coulson's robotic hand, which you yourself have stated has superhuman strength...also it was glass on the Zephyr One, which is likely reinforced (it's an aircraft designed for battle)

I just checked the May feat, she didn't even stomp her. Skye hit her 3 times and even made her bleed.

It's a stomp. May explicitly said "I don't want to hurt you" while restraining her, then Skye landed a couple of hits to get her off.

And then, this happened once May got remotely serious:

Once May gets serious, she takes Skye down in around 8 seconds without being touched once
Once May gets serious, she takes Skye down in around 8 seconds without being touched once

This is a clear stomp.

Dick's feat against Nuclear Family

Dick is using his staff there, and it is clearly playing a massive role.........Not only that, but he is using all sorts of tools. He employs a smoke bomb to get the drop on them, uses a string from his staff to tie two of them together so their mobility is hindered, and he incaps one of them with a birdarang... it is far from h2h.

Even in the other feat against the Nuclear family, he uses a lot of improvised weapons. But it was in fact closer to h2h, let's see how it went.

Note how much poorer he does when he just has that suitcase to work with, instead of his staff & standard tools. Now imagine how much poorer he'do if he was just stuck with his bare hands for an extended period and had no improvised weapons like even a suitcase. This is definitely something writers take into account, the role of any sort of weapon.

Do you have a comparable raw h2h feat to any of May's? Or at-least using a weapon like a small knife, eskrima sticks, etc. that would be closer to pure h2h?

Dick's feat against guards

Dick's not fighting even more than 1 (maybe 2) at a time. If they were coming in super quick succession, that could be overlooked (imo, fighting in super quick succession is as good as fighting all at once). But he literally had a few seconds of recovery time in between each new wave of 1-2 guards. It's like Matt's stairwell fight in S2 of Daredevil. Nobody interprets it as him fighting 16 guys at once, because he's going through them gauntlet style one at a time.

The only good thing about Dick's feat is that he was drugged. Even so, he was repeatedly tagged and put on the back foot.

May did this against a squad of HYDRA operatives while recovering from a leg injury:

Loading Video...

Much better trained fodder, attacking in much quicker succession, and she isn't touched once. You could argue that Daisy was in there with her so it was a group effort, but May was still being tag-teamed by HYDRA agents and she cleared through them without being hit or grabbed.

As far as Dick's physicals go, he's O.K. but nothing May can't deal with handily. I want you to give me pure h2h feats with less weapons usage to place Dick anywhere near May.

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lol...dick gets stomped.

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anthp2000

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#40  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator  Online

Wait wow, Subline hasn't even watched AoS or their feats? Pretty strong opinion for that.

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May has way too many superior showings to lose to Grayson.

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#43  Edited By The_Justiciar
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@the_magister: Don’t know how people keep missing this, but Coulson slams the Remorath into the wall with his prosthetic and then into the glass.

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@the_magister:

They were definitely facing them and then that guy's dispatched by the same Primitive that he's shooting at.

The primitives were tanking bullets. So they didn't outskill the agents they overpowered them, what could the agents even do.

They were smashed into said glass by Coulson's robotic hand, which you yourself have stated has superhuman strength...also it was glass on the Zephyr One, which is likely reinforced (it's an aircraft designed for battle)

Doesn't matter who they were smashed through the glass by, still must be around the same impact as the glass would break before the smash could reach high amount of force. Assuming it's reinforced is just an assumption, I will ignore this.

Fair enough it was a stomp, it's not as impressive as Dick's nuclear Family feat though.

Dick's feat against Nuclear Family

Dick is using his staff there, and it is clearly playing a massive role.........Not only that, but he is using all sorts of tools. He employs a smoke bomb to get the drop on them, uses a string from his staff to tie two of them together so their mobility is hindered, and he incaps one of them with a birdarang... it is far from h2h.

Even without his gadgets, he was stomping and they couldn't tag him. They could definitely see him as they kept moving back to him to fight, my point is that Dick has the combat speed to keep up with multiple superhumans simultaneously, even if it's not h2h.

Even in the other feat against the Nuclear family, he uses a lot of improvised weapons. But it was in fact closer to h2h, let's see how it went:

Note how much poorer he does when he just has that suitcase to work with, instead of his staff & standard tools. Now imagine how much poorer he'do if he was just stuck with his bare hands for an extended period and had no improvised weapons like even a suitcase. This is definitely something writers take into account, the role of any sort of weapon.

He was tagging them repeatedly and outskilling them, despite them having weapons. He may not have done as well, but they still couldn't tag him, and only won due to phyiscals.

Do you have a comparable raw h2h feat to any of May's? Or at-least using a weapon like a small knife, eskrima sticks, etc. that would be closer to pure h2h?

Well the feat you just mentioned (feat above) is comparable to May, unless you can say otherwise May hasn't fought 2 combatants on the same tier as the Nuclear Family, I wouldn't say Remorath are better than the Nuclear Family, as they have already stomped Hawk and Dove and have Superhuman physicals beyond Remorath level, also Dove has insane combat speeds stomping around 8 thugs in 10 seconds.

Dick's feat against guards

Dick's not fighting even more than 1 (maybe 2) at a time. If they were coming in super quick succession, that could be overlooked (imo, fighting in super quick succession is as good as fighting all at once). But he literally had like 3 seconds of recovery time in between each new wave of 1-2 guards. It's like Matt's stairwell fight in S2 of Daredevil. Nobody interprets it as him fighting 16 guys at once, because he's going through them gauntlet style one at a time.

The only good thing about Dick's feat is that he was drugged.

He was fighting generally 2 at a time, and at one point 3 at once. That's still pretty impressive considering he was drugged. He's already beaten 3 Agents easily.

May did this against a squad of HYDRA operatives while recovering from a leg injury:

It took May 23 seconds to take out 2 plus the 1 at the end so 3 in 23 seconds. Dick stomped 2 Organisation Guards in 4.2 Seconds and that was before the last one, he beat the first 2 in 4.2 seconds in h2h.

Although they aren't as trained as Hydra fodder, iirc there is a statement about them being trained mercenaries, and considering that he beat them around 4 times faster (minusing the time for the last hydra goon against may), the feats aren't that far apart.

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The_Justiciar

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#47  Edited By The_Justiciar

@subline: Primitives had sufficient physicals to easily overpower trained agents + they were trained as Watchdog soldiers. This obviously makes them high tier fodder. We often see elite fighters take down trained fodder, and sometimes we see them take down superhuman fodder. We rarely see them take down a combo of both, like May did.

Coulson also smashed the Remorath into the wall of the plane beforehand, the glass smash was just the final blow.

Disagree about the feat against Skye, it's definitely better on a skill basis than Nuclear Family feat.

Dick's feat against Nuclear family

It's good combat speed, but it's still not hand to hand skill. It's staff fighting skill. Good feat nonetheless, but fighting with a staff is way different and you have way more options at your disposal. We see this because he does way worse in the hotel room fight.

In the hotel room fight, Dick was tagged more and put into more compromising positions as the fight progressed. It was far, far worse than his showing with standard gear:

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I don't think holding off the Nuclear Family for a total of 8-9 seconds and then slowly losing is above a lot of peak human fighters, tbh. They are superhuman and they have really good strength, yes. But I think you're underestimating the huge difference between Dick's standard gear battle and his h2h battle. And I also don't find overpowering Dove that impressive. Dove's clearly using the darkness as an aid in her feat against the thugs, it's a good stealth feat but I'm not sure how applicable that would be to raw h2h beyond a basic "she is obviously competent" level.

Also Ward has a feat against a Centipede Soldier who have superior overall physicals to Nuclear Family, Bobbi has a feat against the Kree warrior Vin-Tak who matched Lady Sif, and May scales to being more skilled than both of them. I really don't think this feat is out of her comfort zone, at all.

I'll provide the feats if you want, after class.

Dick's feat against guards

May was coming off a leg injury, I was comparing it to the hallway guards because Dick was drugged. If you want a feat of her taking down fodder quickly while at peak health...

May beating Skye is a much, much, much better feat than beating 12 guards. Implying May would have trouble steamrolling through a dozen guards is silly IMO.

Plus, 4 Russian FSB operatives taken down efficiently:

May wrecks them
May wrecks them
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Arcus1

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@the_magister: In the gif of May vs the Russians, I think she only takes down 3 guys. There's a break before the part where she's finishing off her last guy, seems like it's the same guy she was fighting before the cut, but hard to say

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Just in the interest of accuracy, it's more like 20 seconds anyway. The gif cuts some stuff out (where it cuts away from May)

Also, it wouldn't really be accurate to say it's her fighting 3 (or maybe 4 guys), because like has been mentioned before, she's not fighting them all at once (any more than Dick was fighting all the guards at once

For the record, I think I agree that May wins, at least for now. I don't actually watch Titans, but from what I've seen of Robin's fights, he needs more to actually argue for him winning here, especially without gear. The potential's there, but the feats aren't yet

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#49  Edited By The_Justiciar

@arcus1: Looks like 4 to me, the way it was shot looks like she took down the 3rd guy beforehand (he goes down before it cut away from her). And then she's engaging a 4th guy afterwards. Fair enough about the time thing though.

I was only holding that against Dick because he literally had like 4 seconds in between each guy, and they were slowly walking towards him. If the fight's moving from person to person in quick succession, I don't make much of a distinction as you do. I don't think most feats that are brought up are actually anyone fighting multiple people exactly simultaneously. Not Matt, not Oliver, not Cap, not Bucky, not Sara, not May, not Ward. If I break each of their feats down exactly frame by frame, it's really them fighting people individually in quick succession. Most they'll often do is 2 at an exact simultaneous moment, like May grappling one guy while kicking another or Matt kicking two Hand ninja down.

The only exact simultaneous fighting of 4 people I can think of is DCEU Batman, but he lacks other good feats to solidify that one. And he was tagged in that, too.

I don't see the point in making this big distinction, tbh. IMO beating fodder in very quick succession is about as good as beating fodder at the same time.

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@arcus1: Looks like 4 to me, the way it was shot looks like she took down the 3rd guy beforehand (he goes down before it cut away from her). And then she's engaging a 4th guy afterwards. Fair enough about the time thing though.

I was only holding that against Dick because he literally had like 4 seconds in between each guy, and they were slowly walking towards him. If the fight's moving from person to person in quick succession, I don't make much of a distinction as you do. I don't think most feats that are brought up are actually anyone fighting multiple people exactly simultaneously. Not Matt, not Oliver, not Cap, not Bucky, not Sara, not May, not Ward. If I break each of their feats down exactly frame by frame, it's really them fighting people individually in quick succession. Most they'll often do is 2 at an exact simultaneous moment, like May grappling one guy while kicking another or Matt kicking two Hand ninja down.

The only exact simultaneous fighting of 3-4 people I can think of is DCEU Batman, but he lacks other good feats to solidify that one. And he was tagged in that, too.

I don't see the point in making this big distinction.

To be fair, I didn't even actually watch the video of Dick vs the guards that was being referenced before making my comment, so fair enough