Dexter Morgan Vs Walter White

@erik: You are wrong about Dexter not facing an academically intellectual foe. The Doomsday Killer was capable of making chemical weapons, explosives, and highly complex mechanical installations. I am not saying that the Doomsday Killer is equal to Walter but he is at least close.

Fair enough. I forgot about the Doomsday killer.

@erik:

• Which is a wrong assertion. His strategy developed throughout the series – it’s painfully obvious. He began solely as a chemist while Jesse did the business, but that changed over time and Walter began to handle business. He became one of the biggest meth distributors in America and even had a coalition with Lydia to sell in Russia. Jesse did not negotiate business, Walter did – furthermore, he handled business where Mike failed at too. The finale was not PIS at all, I’ll get to that later in my post though

• Criminals also get caught by the FBI – Walter walked into his own home twice while the FBI were after him, the FBI were on a complete manhunt for Walter. When Walter made a phone-call from a bar hours away from Alberquque, he said it was Walter White on the phone, several minutes later an entire horde of police raided the bar looking for him, that was the severity of the manhunt. Furthermore, while Gretchen and Elliot were on T.V discussing Grey Matter, the T.V host brought up Walter White, Walter’s story was even being published in the New York times, the manhunt was very extensive. There is no way that is overblown. The whole point of the series was it was a character study, Walter did not stay a chemist for the whole series. The original plan was that Jesse would do business and Walter would cook, that was clearly not the case by the end of the series

• Walter is not a bullet timer and he can’t aim dodge either. It was a heavy automated M60, so he isn’t dodging and he was only tagged once. He’s a man over 50 with cancer, who had several health problems (extensive coughing) throughout the show, he isn’t going to be avoiding bullets
• No it isn’t. Listen to the DIALOGUE – ‘’What kind of man talks to the DEA?’’, ‘’Is this the legacy you want to leave behind?’’ – He wanted to kill Hector because he went to the DEA, why would Walter send Hector to then DEA? For fun? No. Gus did visit Hector but Walter needed to know for a fact that Gus would go, sending Hector to the DEA would definitely lure in Hector. He made the bomb, set it in his wheelchair (showing that Walter was not afraid to blow up nursing homes) and then it detonated. What you are saying doesn’t make sense, because he sent Hector to the DEA for a specific reason
• No he wasn't, that is just speculation. Walter needed to know for a fact that he would go so he could time his bomb
• He was put in check. Not outsmarted. If anything, Walter outsmarted Gus by getting Jesse to kill Gale, which forced Gus to change his plan. Gus did not outsmart him, he overpowered him by threatening his family. Gus had an empire, Walter had nothing, Gus was imposing his power upon Walter. How is threatening his family 'outsmarting' him?
• Wrong. That completely negates the entire point of the series - character development was a major strongpoint of the series, Walter from season 1 was not the same man from season 4. There was no PIS in Breaking Bad, it's not a comic book, and really there were no PIS instances. He's never killed anyone as smart as Walter, he has killed pedophilles and bar owners, and some higher end characters but nothing on Walter's level. Walter killed Lydia by poisoning her tea, that is more impressive than anything Dexter has done. Lydia had much more power than Walter and even tried to kill Walter in the finale but failed. Lydia was powerful enough to put 'hits' on people (as Jesse said, like ''the mafia'') and she was still killed. She tried to kill him because she knew he was dangerous.

@frozen:

• If it is a wrong assertion, then I must also be a criminal mastermind because nothing he did was outside the realm of my thinking.
• Sure they sometimes get caught but the FBI are not omnipresent, so walking into his own home is not a big deal. If he had been picked up by the FBI and talked his way out of their custody, then we might have something there. But last time Walter had a run-in with a police officer, he so eloquently argued his way into a face full of pepper spray. Super intellect indeed.
• Lucky me that I never said Walter was a bullet timer/dodger. I said that if he was a true criminal mastermind, bullets would never have been fired at Jesse in the first place. Not sure what his age and medical condition have to do with his genius intellect.
• I don't care what Gus said. It was already established that he made visits to Hector to torture him. All Walter did was put Gus in a position to want to kill Hector. If you can prove that Gus didn't make visits to Hector, then I'll accept that Walter lured Gus there. Walter didn't show that he was willing to blow up a nursing home. A chemist of his level surely knows just how much to use to only destroy everything in the room... which is exactly what happened.
• Um... Walter didn't time the bomb. He gave Hector the ability to activate the bomb himself.
• He was definitely outsmarted. That's why Walter had to resort to poisoning a child. Gus had already turned Jesse on Walter. Gus took away everything from Walter because Gus knew what he was doing. Walter, in his desperation, resorted to poisoning a child because he had been defeated at every other turn. Again, it's not blowing my skirt up.
• LMAO how is it negating the entire point of the series? Just because Walter had developed into a different character does not mean he became some criminal genius. That's you being overly impressed with rather mundane showings. Ummmm.... PIS isn't limited to just comics.
• A pedophile can be just as smart as anyone else.
• How is poisoning someone impressive? She was hardly a criminal mastermind.
• Anyone can put a hit on anyone else so long as you have the money. That doesn't mean she was powerful. I seriously think you are wanking the series. It was easily a much more satisfying series than Dexter ended up being but that doesn't mean that Walter was a criminal genius. I literally could have come up with anything that Walter has done and I'm no criminal genius.

@erik:

If it is a wrong assertion, then I must also be a criminal mastermind because nothing he did was outside the realm of my thinking.

I don't really know what realm of thinking you have - but it is easy to sit back and claim we can replicate the feats of a man in a fictional T.V show, as we see what is unfolding.

Sure they sometimes get caught but the FBI are not omnipresent, so walking into his own home is not a big deal. If he had been picked up by the FBI and talked his way out of their custody, then we might have something there. But last time Walter had a run-in with a police officer, he so eloquently argued his way into a face full of pepper spray. Super intellect indeed.

They are not omnipresent but Walter was a primary target - the sheer fact that a group of police horde a bar which is hours away from Albuquerque just because Walter left his name on a phone call shows how severe the manhunt was. I've already listed the examples including the New York times, but you can't just write him off as being lucky again. Walter knew the risks, and for his plan to work he would have to avoid the FBI. The example you have listed if of Season 2 or 3 and again, that version of Walter was not up to Season 4 onwards standard.

Lucky me that I never said Walter was a bullet timer/dodger. I said that if he was a true criminal mastermind, bullets would never have been fired at Jesse in the first place. Not sure what his age and medical condition have to do with his genius intellect.

Actually, Walter did need Jesse. They were going to kill Walter straight away, but Walter needed to buy time as he would not be able to activate his M60-turret (he had to put his keys on the table and he was slowly reaching towards them to activate the M60), so he insults Jack for partnering with Jesse, which enrages Jack, subsequently Jack brings Jesse to the room. This bought Walter the time for his plan to succeed, he then tackles Jesse to the floor and then activates the turret. Given the situation he was in and the little resource he had, it was indeed impressive. I already posted the clip on the previous page.

I don't care what Gus said. It was already established that he made visits to Hector to torture him. All Walter did was put Gus in a position to want to kill Hector. If you can prove that Gus didn't make visits to Hector, then I'll accept that Walter lured Gus there. Walter didn't show that he was willing to blow up a nursing home. A chemist of his level surely knows just how much to use to only destroy everything in the room... which is exactly what happened.

You can't really ignore the dialogue and the context it shows. Essentially, you've just proved my point - putting him in a position to want to kill Hector would have definitely brought Gus to Hector. Walter can't predict when Gus will show up, he doesn't know when Gus will decide to visit him, only Gus knew when he would visit him as he is the one who decides when to visit Hector, so Walter needed to know for sure that Gus was going to visit Hector. That is why Gus's henchman tells Gus that there is a problem, the problem being that Hector has gone to speak to the DEA (as his henchman observes Hector with the DEA). Walter showed that he was willing to plant a bomb inside a nursing home, someone could have been walking by or have been injured, or entered the room, he couldn't predict those variables. Hank actually points out to Walter that he set a bomb in a nursing home.

Um... Walter didn't time the bomb. He gave Hector the ability to activate the bomb himself.

Yes. And he needed Gus to visit Hector.

He was definitely outsmarted. That's why Walter had to resort to poisoning a child. Gus had already turned Jesse on Walter. Gus took away everything from Walter because Gus knew what he was doing. Walter, in his desperation, resorted to poisoning a child because he had been defeated at every other turn. Again, it's not blowing my skirt up.

That is not outsmarting someone. Walter was working for Gus. He was more powerful than Walter. Gus's biggest threat was threatening Walter's family, Walter used that to try and persuade Jesse to join his side. Gus was turning Jesse away and installing cameras in the workplace, but that is because Walter had previously killed Gale so he put Gus in a position to need Jesse. All of this put Walter in the position to have no choice but to kill Gus.

Prior to Gale's death, Gus saw Jesse as nothing more than a junkie.

LMAO how is it negating the entire point of the series? Just because Walter had developed into a different character does not mean he became some criminal genius. That's you being overly impressed with rather mundane showings. Ummmm.... PIS isn't limited to just comics.

I'm not really ''overly impressed'' but you are wrongly interpreting some of these episodes. Walter did become smarter; he learnt more about the business he was in. That's just a fact, in season 1 he could barely discuss business, in season 5 he was easily discussing so. He became accustomed to it and he changed as a character; likewise, Walter in season 1 couldn't kill Gus and wouldn't be able to kill the Neo-Nazi's, he barely killed the people in the RV and had trouble with the likes of Tuco.

How is poisoning someone impressive? She was hardly a criminal mastermind.

It was to point out that he didn't just poison people with the cigarettes but I'll get to the point later in my post.

Anyone can put a hit on anyone else so long as you have the money. That doesn't mean she was powerful. I seriously think you are wanking the series. It was easily a much more satisfying series than Dexter ended up being but that doesn't mean that Walter was a criminal genius. I literally could have come up with anything that Walter has done and I'm no criminal genius.

How can you claim she wasn't powerful? She definitely was powerful. She was one of the bigger meth-distributors and prior to Gus's death she was going to make a partnership with him. Your previous claim was that Gus was a genius because he kept hidden for 10 years, likewise Lydia also kept her identity hidden despite being one of the bigger meth distributors. Though the police did have their suspicious on her, nothing really solidified. She was far more powerful than Walter in the finale.

@frozen:

• I can sit back and claim that I could think of exactly the same strategies because I can. I have never once watched Walter do something and though to myself, "Holy Christ! How did he think that up!? I am shocked and amazed at his GODLY INTELLECT!!!". Walter acts and the first thing I usually think is, "Yeah, okay that's the clear choice." You may call me Heisenberg.
• I sure can write them off as being lucky. Nothing that was done in the series, up until the last three episodes was anything impressive. I am easily capable of admitting when something is brilliant. The only thing brilliant about the series was the chemistry, which benefited from 'movie magic' to no small degree. Walter did not gain intellect throughout the series. He was just as intelligent in season one as season two as season four.
• Um.... I never said Walter didn't need Jesse. So you are attacking a point I never made or implied. Is this the beginnings of a strawman? And no, the encounter you are describing with Jack is not tactically impressive. Sorry but I maintain that you are easily impressed. Just because you couldn't think to insult someone that is trying to kill you, doesn't mean that anyone else couldn't have.
• I can ignore the dialogue if it has no significant impact on the course of events. All it did was allow Walter to accelerate when Gus was going to be there. Gus was going visit Hector anyway. I am quite literally flabbergasted that this is knocking your socks off. It's not even a mediocre feat. Hank's world was turned on its head with the realization of who Walter was. But if you want to say that Walter's brazen action was not tempered with his knowledge of chemistry, that's fine. I am happy to accept your implication that Walter is a sloppy psychopath. That plays right into Dexter's hands.
• Sure he needed Gus to visit Hector. Good thing Gus already visits Hector to torture him then, isn't it?
• What you just described between Gus, Walter, and Jesse is not strategically impressive. I think you are confusing genius strategy and dramatically thrilling.
• That's... not Walter becoming smarter. That's Walter becoming more familiar with the world he was in and look what he did with all that familiarity. He destroyed everything he loved.
• Yeah, she was so powerful that a weak old man was able to make his way into her home and kill her without so much as breaking a sweat. So much power. She was a middle-man and a paranoid middle-man that jumped without thinking. Lydia didn't keep her identity secret. She was especially vulnerable, which is exactly why she tried to have everyone killed. You are confusing someone with connections to the criminal underworld with criminal power. She had no noteworthy power to speak of. If she had power, she would have ordered executions, not paid for them.
• I remain unimpressed with Walter's so-called criminal genius. Walter didn't have the head needed to run a criminal empire and was lucky for most of the series. Obviously his luck ran out at the end of the series. What did Walter do that was better than what Gus did? What did Walter do when he had everything Gus had? Walter is sloppy and he runs purely on ego (to the point that he actually wanted people to know who he was) towards the end of the series, nothing that Dexter is unable to overcome.

@erik:

I can sit back and claim that I could think of exactly the same strategies because I can. I have never once watched Walter do something and though to myself, "Holy Christ! How did he think that up!? I am shocked and amazed at his GODLY INTELLECT!!!". Walter acts and the first thing I usually think is, "Yeah, okay that's the clear choice." You may call me Heisenberg.

Because you can. Walter was not on the level of Lex Luthor or The Joker but what he accomplished was beyond our capability - unless you are a gangster, most of what he did would not be accomplished by the likes of you or me. Likewise, many people tried to predict how the finale would go down, but nobody predicted his plan or anything close to it.

I sure can write them off as being lucky. Nothing that was done in the series, up until the last three episodes was anything impressive. I am easily capable of admitting when something is brilliant. The only thing brilliant about the series was the chemistry, which benefited from 'movie magic' to no small degree. Walter did not gain intellect throughout the series. He was just as intelligent in season one as season two as season four.

So now you admit the last three episodes were impressive? Assuming you have seen them of course. Prior to that, he killed Gus Fring and orchestrated the prison deaths and then covered it up (despite Hank finally getting witnesses to talk). Walter from season 1 is not Walter from season 5. Walter from season 1 was dealing a few pounds of meth a week and struggled with street level meth dealers, Jesse had to negotiate business for him, he would not have come close to orchestrating the death of Gus Fring or the Neo Nazi's and Lydia.

Um.... I never said Walter didn't need Jesse. So you are attacking a point I never made or implied. Is this the beginnings of a strawman? And no, the encounter you are describing with Jack is not tactically impressive. Sorry but I maintain that you are easily impressed. Just because you couldn't think to insult someone that is trying to kill you, doesn't mean that anyone else couldn't have.

Your statement - if he was a true criminal mastermind, bullets would never have been fired at Jesse in the first place

Walter had very little resource. All he had for a weapon was an M60-turret due to the lack of resources and the FBI wanting him. He needed all the Neo Nazi's in one place for him to utilize his M60. He could only plan so much, Jack was going to shoot him - he had no choice but to buy time, by insulting Jack he was able to get Jesse to into the room. What standard are you trying to hold Walter to? Lex Luthor?

Had Jack shot him, Walter would have died and Jesse would have been kept as a slave to die. If you watch the clip I posted, you'll see his insult was him hoping to get Jesse into the room.

I can ignore the dialogue if it has no significant impact on the course of events. All it did was allow Walter to accelerate when Gus was going to be there. Gus was going visit Hector anyway. I am quite literally flabbergasted that this is knocking your socks off. It's not even a mediocre feat. Hank's world was turned on its head with the realization of who Walter was. But if you want to say that Walter's brazen action was not tempered with his knowledge of chemistry, that's fine. I am happy to accept your implication that Walter is a sloppy psychopath. That plays right into Dexter's hands.

It did have an impact. Gus wasn't ''going to visit him anyways'' - there was never a fixed time to when Gus visited Hector, he visited him when he felt like torturing him. It isn't even knocking my socks off to the standards I hold characters to, you are downplaying it to be just luck and that Hector going to the DEA didn't make a difference. I made no such implication either.

Why do you think Walter would send Hector to the DEA? For no reason at all?

Sure he needed Gus to visit Hector. Good thing Gus already visits Hector to torture him then, isn't it?

Again, Walter does not know when Gus will feel like torturing Hector.

What you just described between Gus, Walter, and Jesse is not strategically impressive. I think you are confusing genius strategy and dramatically thrilling.

It was a response to your claim that Walter was ''outsmarted'' by Gus - he was overpowered by Gus who threatened to kill his family. My post still stands.

That's... not Walter becoming smarter. That's Walter becoming more familiar with the world he was in and look what he did with all that familiarity. He destroyed everything he loved.

..,...And in the process of becoming familiar to that world, he became smarter. Yes, he did destroy everything he loved but that didn't stop him from killing his enemies. His brother was the DEA, on several occasions he successfully covered that up, in fact he did so for about a year and a half. Most people in the meth business did not have to deal with such problems; matters were made worse that Hank actually took an interest in the Heisenberg case. Just look at The Godfather trilogy (to which Breaing Bad took some inspiration from) - Michael Corleone was successful in killing his enemies and surviving but his life was destroyed, it isn't applicable to the battle.

Yeah, she was so powerful that a weak old man was able to make his way into her home and kill her without so much as breaking a sweat. So much power. She was a middle-man and a paranoid middle-man that jumped without thinking. Lydia didn't keep her identity secret. She was especially vulnerable, which is exactly why she tried to have everyone killed. You are confusing someone with connections to the criminal underworld with criminal power. She had no noteworthy power to speak of. If she had power, she would have ordered executions, not paid for them.

Since when was Mike a ''weak old man''? He was one of Gus Fring's best hit-men. He was never alluded to being physically weak, or worn down either. He was accustomed to gunning down hit-men and carrying out raids. Her paranoia is what actually got her to kill people. I actually specifically stated that the police were suspicious (that is why they interviewed her) - you also forgot to mention that Hank figured out Gus before Gus knew he had and told Jr. She did have power; that was firmly asserted when she negotiated a deal with Walter to supply methalymine to other parts of America and Russia (where sales increased) - someone with just connections could not do so, Jack and his men had connections and resources (weapons).

I remain unimpressed with Walter's so-called criminal genius. Walter didn't have the head needed to run a criminal empire and was lucky for most of the series. Obviously his luck ran out at the end of the series. What did Walter do that was better than what Gus did? What did Walter do when he had everything Gus had? Walter is sloppy and he runs purely on ego (to the point that he actually wanted people to know who he was) towards the end of the series, nothing that Dexter is unable to overcome.

He was not lucky to the extent you are claiming - much of what he did was of his own merit. Walter was brother to the DEA who was beginning to figure out the case, so he was not going to be head for long. I am not denying he was sloppy; he was (though some in this thread have claimed Dexter became sloppy, to which I will have to see) but the stipulations to why he was sloppy are not comparable to what is described in the OP. He was actually better suited to having prep time, as he carried out Gus's death, the Neo-Nazi's, Lydia and the prison deaths.

@frozen:

• You might not have been able to do what Walter has done but nothing he has done is outside my ability in formulation or execution of plans. What has been shown was not even of gifted intelligence, so for you to say that you can't think such things up does a disservice to yourself and for you to say I could not think such things up is outright insulting.
• No. I don't understand why you are confusing the message in my posts. I have not seen the final three episodes, I feel I have been very clear about this. Becoming a more evil character does not mean you are becoming a smarter character. So pointing out that Walter is not the same character is about as relevant as my pointing out that the moon waxes and wanes over the course of a month. It's still the same moon.
• No. If Walter was really a criminal mastermind, Jesse would not have been put in danger in the first place. What happened is not a result of Walter having few resources, it's a result of him having no foresight. Criminal mastermind indeed. Insulting Jack was a good idea. It wasn't brilliant. I have good ideas everyday. For example, not calling people idiots when they are idiots on CV is a very good idea and has allowed me to have a continued presence here. Does that make me a genius for simply coming to that realization? Hell no. It doesn't take a genius to have good ideas that happen to result in the best possible outcome.
• Except it was established that Gus did make periodic visits to Hector. If Walter never made it look like Hector talked, Gus would have still visited. How do I know this? Because it was already established to happen. All Walter did was give Gus a reason to kill Hector. If Walter had done nothing but give Hector the bomb, Gus still would have died eventually. There was nothing brilliant in that. In fact, it was more a stupid move on Gus' part than a brilliant move on Walter's part.
• You don't become 'smarter' by becoming more familiar with a new job. Do you become smarter for finishing a training period at Wal-Mart? Do you become smarter by dealing with thugs? Walter did not increase his intellect. He only became more willing to cross lines is all. So yes, Walter from season one might not have been able to do what Walter from the final season was able to do but not because he wouldn't be able to think of the options. He would be unable to do what he did because he still had moral lines that he had difficulty crossing. Like you said, it was a character study. I think you would raise eyebrows to anyone that studies the mind when you tell them that spending time with criminals made Walter smarter. That's just... untrue to say the least. You fail to understand. If Walter was a criminal mastermind, his family would never have been put at risk. Not ever. So the fact that he destroyed his life may not be directly applicable to the battle here but it properly illustrates that Walter isn't nearly the genius you are trying to make him out to be.
• Have you seen Mike? He is no superhuman. Jesus Christ, he is a broken down, burnt out, overweight, senior citizen. Jesse could beat him if he had the stones to fight. The blatantly obvious shouldn't have to be shoved in your face for it to be true. Are you just being contrary to be contrary now? You don't even need to be in the health profession to see that Mike could beat few men half his age in a straight fight. I mean good god, this is starting to get to be a silly conversation if you are going to be taking up positions like arguing Mike's obvious physical condition. I didn't forget to mention anything. Hank didn't suspect Gus on his own. He was stuck on Heisenberg and only became suspicious of Gus when Gale was murdered. An eventual happy coincidence for Walter, not a stroke of genius. Negotiating a deal with Walter doesn't mean she had power and let's be honest, she was hardly in a position of power when Walter struck a deal with her anyway.
• No, that is you exaggerating the significance of Walter's ability. Much of what happened was due to luck. Hank being in the DEA and no one suspecting Walter is not a feat. In fact, Hank only discovers Walter because Walter is decidedly sloppy and fueled by his own ego. If Walter was truly a mastermind. Hank would have been oblivious to Walter evermore. I stopped watching Dexter with the finale of the Doomsday killer, so he may very have also become sloppy. Since I haven't seen the recent seasons, I can't argue for or against them. But even if that is the case, the question of who was more sloppy would still need to be discussed. Walter is better suited to prep time? I have seen both series, virtually as much Breaking Bad as you, and I am vehemently against you on that. Dexter's prep is the most important part of his code. Going over details of prepping the kill is intoxicating to him. There is absolutely no way Walter's mediocre prep is beating someone who has been taught to prep a kill since he was a child.

Dexter still wins. He was almost comical in his stalking, prep, and intuition. It was ridiculous sometimes. Walter, on the other hand, while very gifted intellectually, was very grounded in reality. His prep feats pale in comparison to Dexter and he has no h2h skills to speak of.

Walt will be dealt with

@erik:

You might not have been able to do what Walter has done but nothing he has done is outside my ability in formulation or execution of plans. What has been shown was not even of gifted intelligence, so for you to say that you can't think such things up does a disservice to yourself and for you to say I could not think such things up is outright insulting.

So you think you could avoid the FBI despite being on the news and then proceed to kill one of the biggest meth dealers in America and a gang that vastly outnumbers you in both number and firepower? You don't think you'd just get caught or gunned down, which is the likely option? I don't really know what you think you are capable of or what standard to hold yourself to, but okay. If that is what you are going on

No. I don't understand why you are confusing the message in my posts. I have not seen the final three episodes, I feel I have been very clear about this. Becoming a more evil character does not mean you are becoming a smarter character. So pointing out that Walter is not the same character is about as relevant as my pointing out that the moon waxes and wanes over the course of a month. It's still the same moon.

I specifically posted a video of the clip in which he kills them the previous page. I will re-iterate; have you seen the clip I posted? Aside from becoming more evil, he became more calculated. This is painfully obvious. Walter became smarter by what he accomplished over the series; to which I have posted, organizing the prison deaths and killing Gus is beyond his season 1 capability, you only have to watch an episode of season 1 and then 5. You are criticizing something you have not seen.

No. If Walter was really a criminal mastermind, Jesse would not have been put in danger in the first place. What happened is not a result of Walter having few resources, it's a result of him having no foresight. Criminal mastermind indeed. Insulting Jack was a good idea. It wasn't brilliant. I have good ideas everyday. For example, not calling people idiots when they are idiots on CV is a very good idea and has allowed me to have a continued presence here. Does that make me a genius for simply coming to that realization? Hell no. It doesn't take a genius to have good ideas that happen to result in the best possible outcome.

No it isn't. You are holding him to Lex Luthor standard. I will repeat; Saul had left him, the FBI wanted him, he was on national news, most of his money had been taken, he was a target. He could only do so much and had little resource, I am not arguing insulting Jack made him a genius either - it was a response to your claim that he shouldn't have brought Jesse inside, he brought him for a reason. The plan itself given his resources is what is impressive. Saying he has 'no foresight' is silly - the last two episodes heavily emphasize what is taken away from Walter and how little he has.

Except it was established that Gus did make periodic visits to Hector. If Walter never made it look like Hector talked, Gus would have still visited. How do I know this? Because it was already established to happen. All Walter did was give Gus a reason to kill Hector. If Walter had done nothing but give Hector the bomb, Gus still would have died eventually. There was nothing brilliant in that. In fact, it was more a stupid move on Gus' part than a brilliant move on Walter's part.

I'm starting to repeat myself too many times on this point. Yes, Gus visited Hector. But look at the context; Gus was going to kill Walter, Walter was in panic because he had little time left. For all we know, Gus could have visited Hector at a later time, perhaps after he had killed Walter. Walter had no idea when Gus could visit, so he needed to accelerate to be absolutely sure that Gus was there so that he could kill Gus before Gus even attempted to kill him. In fact, it grabbed Gus's immediate attention when Gus's henchman called Gus. Walter cannot know when Gus will decide to go and torture someone. Furthermore, most of Gus's visits took place on occasion when Gus killed someone close to Hector; he didn't visit the man everyday.

You don't become 'smarter' by becoming more familiar with a new job. Do you become smarter for finishing a training period at Wal-Mart? Do you become smarter by dealing with thugs? Walter did not increase his intellect. He only became more willing to cross lines is all. So yes, Walter from season one might not have been able to do what Walter from the final season was able to do but not because he wouldn't be able to think of the options. He would be unable to do what he did because he still had moral lines that he had difficulty crossing.

It is pure speculation to say that season 1 Walter could accomplish season 5 Walter's feats - the more that Walter became accustomed to dealing with business and being in that world, the better he came at thinking in that world. But essentially, you have proved my point

So yes, Walter from season one might not have been able to do what Walter from the final season was able to do but not because he wouldn't be able to think of the options

Walter in season 5 was a capable killer. He was ruthless, had more resources and fought bigger threats - Walter from season 1 was dealing a few pounds of meth a week and struggled with street level meth dealers, Jesse had to do most of the business for him. Season 1 Walter would have folded in the situations that Season 5 Walter was put in.

Like you said, it was a character study. I think you would raise eyebrows to anyone that studies the mind when you tell them that spending time with criminals made Walter smarter. That's just... untrue to say the least. You fail to understand. If Walter was a criminal mastermind, his family would never have been put at risk. Not ever. So the fact that he destroyed his life may not be directly applicable to the battle here but it properly illustrates that Walter isn't nearly the genius you are trying to make him out to be.

Good lord, that is a huge double-standard.

Walter's family life getting ripped apart didn't make him any less smart, that was the life he chose - it was inevitable that his family life would get threatened at one point. You seem to think I'm claiming Walter to be Dr Doom with prep - no. One of the reasons he was good with prep was because of his family being threatened. But regarding the double standard, Dexter's life was also ruined. You can't just apply this logic to Walter and then neglect to do so for Dexter. Dexter did not go without loss as Debra dies and Dexter throws her body in the sea.

Have you seen Mike? He is no superhuman. Jesus Christ, he is a broken down, burnt out, overweight, senior citizen. Jesse could beat him if he had the stones to fight. The blatantly obvious shouldn't have to be shoved in your face for it to be true. Are you just being contrary to be contrary now? You don't even need to be in the health profession to see that Mike could beat few men half his age in a straight fight. I mean good god, this is starting to get to be a silly conversation if you are going to be taking up positions like arguing Mike's obvious physical condition.

When did I claim him to be 'superhuman'? And no. He is none of those things that you listed. He was old, but he wasn't Grandpa Simpson, he was a hitman. You only have to watch the scene where he saves Chau to see that he was a killer. He wasn't Boba Fett reborn but he wasn't an old, weak and feeble man that you are claiming him to be.

Why do you think Gus hired him? To do his knitting for him?

Hank didn't suspect Gus on his own. He was stuck on Heisenberg and only became suspicious of Gus when Gale was murdered. An eventual happy coincidence for Walter, not a stroke of genius.

The Gale murder was not of Walt's incompetence, Walter ordered that hit. Jesse sloppily carried it out because he wasn't a killer.

Negotiating a deal with Walter doesn't mean she had power and let's be honest, she was hardly in a position of power when Walter struck a deal with her anyway.

She definitely did have power. It was firmly asserted so when she first negotiated after Walter had killed Mike - her discussion didn't just demonstrate her ''connections'' but the power she had, she was capable of boosting Walter's meth sales by quite alot more than previously, by expanding his meth sales to Europe. Jack and his gang were the men with the connections.

No, that is you exaggerating the significance of Walter's ability. Much of what happened was due to luck. Hank being in the DEA and no one suspecting Walter is not a feat. In fact, Hank only discovers Walter because Walter is decidedly sloppy and fueled by his own ego. If Walter was truly a mastermind. Hank would have been oblivious to Walter evermore. I stopped watching Dexter with the finale of the Doomsday killer, so he may very have also become sloppy. Since I haven't seen the recent seasons, I can't argue for or against them. But even if that is the case, the question of who was more sloppy would still need to be discussed. Walter is better suited to prep time? I have seen both series, virtually as much Breaking Bad as you, and I am vehemently against you on that. Dexter's prep is the most important part of his code. Going over details of prepping the kill is intoxicating to him. There is absolutely no way Walter's mediocre prep is beating someone who has been taught to prep a kill since he was a child.

No, it isn't. Luck was a factor but not nearly to the extent you are claiming it to be, Walter was able to accomplish many of his feats due to his own merits. Avoiding Hank is a feat, he went to great lengths to cover it up, in the latter seasons he would enter his office to remove data from his computer, or when he crashed his own car. Walter did leave the book in his toilet, but that does not make him sloppy to the extent to which you have been claiming. I can't really understand what standard you are now holding Walter to; he was not a prep god. Most of Walter's kills came from when he had prep.

@frozen:

• Actually yes, I believe I could if these were my opponents and I was put in the same situation that Walter was put in. I probably could have found a way to not die in the process too.
• Okay cool. You think going to the dark side makes you smarter. You're simply wrong then. Walter was not smarter in the final season. Once again, the willingness to cross moral lines is not a measure of intelligence. And no, I didn't watch your clip because it spoils the drama for someone that intends to see it. You can describe the events just fine.
• WRONG! I am not holding him to Lex Luthor's standard. I only gave an example of actual criminal genius and Lex was among them. But in order to qualify as a criminal mastermind, one needs to be able to do criminal things with greater ability than a pre-med student could. Walter unfortunately hasn't been able to. The claim that Walter lacks foresight is not silly at all. Your claim that Walter having his empire stripped away from him and dying in the process is amazing foresight is damn silly though.
• You are only repeating yourself because you refuse to see that what Walter did to Gus was not brilliance. I am fully aware and have even admitted several times that Walter gave Gus a reason to kill Hector as soon as possible. Was it the winning move? Sure. Was it fu*king brilliant? God no. Once again, it was more a stupid move on Gus' part than a genius move on Walter's. I remain intellectually unimpressed.
• LOL I don't know how I proved your point when all I did was point out that you are wrong about how one becomes 'smarter'. Walter's familiarity with criminal dealings is not increased intellect.
• Debra did not die because of Dexter. Debra died because Saxon shot her while in custody.
• Actually, Mike was every single one of the things I described. Every single one and to deny such objective facts is lunacy. You don't need to be Jack Bower to know how to hide in a refrigerated truck and ambush a couple of goons. This whole conversation has made the leap beyond the line of fanwanking a while ago but dang... this was a surprise to read. You don't need to be Boba Fett reborn to know how to shoot a gun or know how to be an efficient killer either. Mike was every one of the things I listed and that is exactly what got him shot by Walter.
• LOL I never said that Gale's murder was sloppiness of Walter's part. Oh boy, you arejust being contrary to be contrary now.
• Wrong again. Lydia had connections to set up a deal. She had no power. Don't confuse the two because there is a marked distinction.
• Yes, it is luck. Darn near everything Walter had accomplished was luck. How is avoiding Hank a feat? You think that just because someone is in the DEA, that they have their own family under constant suspicion? Hank was a decent officer but he was no supercop. It's not like anyone in the DEA would meet their brother-in-law for a family dinner and immediately start checking every detail of said brother-in-law's life for evidence of wrong-doing. Get serious. Tampering with Hank's computer was admittedly, a good idea. But how in the hell is that genius? Who couldn't do that with free access to Hank's computer?
• What standard? My only claim is that if I could do it, it's not criminal genius. However, I am completely willing to accept such a title, if you honestly feel that Walter's decidedly unimpressive work was genius.

@erik:

Okay cool. You think going to the dark side makes you smarter. You're simply wrong then. Walter was not smarter in the final season. Once again, the willingness to cross moral lines is not a measure of intelligence. And no, I didn't watch your clip because it spoils the drama for someone that intends to see it. You can describe the events just fine.

You are not really denying that Season 5 Walter is more capable than Season 1 Walter in all aspects. He has more power, he is willing to kill (which works to his advantage) and is better with resources.

WRONG! I am not holding him to Lex Luthor's standard. I only gave an example of actual criminal genius and Lex was among them. But in order to qualify as a criminal mastermind, one needs to be able to do criminal things with greater ability than a pre-med student could. Walter unfortunately hasn't been able to. The claim that Walter lacks foresight is not silly at all. Your claim that Walter having his empire stripped away from him and dying in the process is amazing foresight is damn silly though.

Lex Luthor is a criminal genius by Superman standards and has given him trouble on numerous occasions so they are not even comparable. Walter is not a pre-med student, he is far more calculated. I don't know where you are getting the idea that he is as smart as a pre-med student. Saying he lacked foresight against Jack doesn't make sense, he had literally nothing going for him when he had to prep against him. I have already explained why he had his empire stripped from, you are trying to use that to say that it made him stupid, no it didn't. What he accomplished given his resources was impressive, and it cannot be accomplished by pre-med students.

You are only repeating yourself because you refuse to see that what Walter did to Gus was not brilliance. I am fully aware and have even admitted several times that Walter gave Gus a reason to kill Hector as soon as possible. Was it the winning move? Sure. Was it fu*king brilliant? God no. Once again, it was more a stupid move on Gus' part than a genius move on Walter's. I remain intellectually unimpressed.

So now you accept that it was the winning move? Do you know why it was the winning move? Because accelerating the time at which Gus visited Hector would ensure that Gus wouldn't attempt to kill Walter first. That isn't a stupid move on Gus's part. In what way is it a stupid move? Gus knew of Walter's chemistry capabilities, but he did not know that he was planning his death or anything close to it. Walter came across as weak and desperate when Gus last saw him.

LOL I don't know how I proved your point when all I did was point out that you are wrong about how one becomes 'smarter'. Walter's familiarity with criminal dealings is not increased intellect.

It increased his overall capability.

Debra did not die because of Dexter. Debra died because Saxon shot her while in custody

The root of the problem was because of Dexter's life as a serial killer, which eventually led to those events. So yes, contrary to your claim it also applies to Dexter.

Actually, Mike was every single one of the things I described. Every single one and to deny such objective facts is lunacy. You don't need to be Jack Bower to know how to hide in a refrigerated truck and ambush a couple of goons. This whole conversation has made the leap beyond the line of fanwanking a while ago but dang... this was a surprise to read. You don't need to be Boba Fett reborn to know how to shoot a gun or know how to be an efficient killer either. Mike was every one of the things I listed and that is exactly what got him shot by Walter.

No. He was old. But he wasn't weak or useless, he was experienced and resourceful. Gus hired him for a reason, he was a hitman. At which point in the series was he weak and feabile? Only when he was shot/injured. The scene in which he saves Chau demonstrates that he is a killer, not this weak and broken man that you are claiming. So shooting other henchmen isn't credible either because all he has to do is aim? Really? They are also going to be shooting back...

He was shot by Walter because Walter opened his car door and shot him point blank. He wasn't shot because he was old, he was shot because he was surprised. Walter later realized that Lydia had the names on the list.

Wrong again. Lydia had connections to set up a deal. She had no power. Don't confuse the two because there is a marked distinction.

...She needed power to get those connections. The marked distinction was that Jack and his men had the connections and she had the power. That was firmly asserted.

Yes, it is luck. Darn near everything Walter had accomplished was luck. How is avoiding Hank a feat? You think that just because someone is in the DEA, that they have their own family under constant suspicion?

You are literally claiming that everything he accomplished was luck. It is only luck for so long, you're just discrediting his accomplishments done by his own merits. No, the DEA didn't have him under constant surveillance but Walter certainly went to great lengths to cover evidence up.

Hank was a decent officer but he was no supercop. It's not like anyone in the DEA would meet their brother-in-law for a family dinner and immediately start checking every detail of said brother-in-law's life for evidence of wrong-doing. Get serious. Tampering with Hank's computer was admittedly, a good idea. But how in the hell is that genius? Who couldn't do that with free access to Hank's computer?

Hank was an incredibly smart cop. That was shown as the series progressed. He was obsessed. Who couldn't ''do that with free access''? He did it regularly and had to do so very quickly, that wasn't even it, he had to cover evidence up several other times (crashing the car, etc). Avoiding him for a year and a half isn't just luck. Sorry.

What standard? My only claim is that if I could do it, it's not criminal genius. However, I am completely willing to accept such a title, if you honestly feel that Walter's decidedly unimpressive work was genius.

You can't accomplish what Walter did. Seriously. Saying ''everything Walter did was luck'' is just trying to diminish his accomplishments.

@frozen: I cant believe you just linked a video saying "Dexter throws Debra in the sea" without even putting a spoiler block

Just ruined a huge plot point for me, thanks.

@i_like_swords: Spoiler blocks didn't work videos when I posted it. That is why I reported it to the Bugs section.

@frozen: So take out the video and just describe the events? You can't just leave that lying around because you're basically spoiling the main plot for any Dexter fans who enter this thread. I wasn't even reading your post I just skimmed and saw it...

@i_like_swords: Apologies if I spoiled it but as pointed out earlier, the show ended last September, half a year ago. Hardly brand new material. I've edited it anyways.

Because nobody uses Netflix or receives a DVD boxset as a present..

That doesn't change the fact the finale still had high ratings, despite having a foul reception.

It does however mean that just because the original episodes are done airing that nobody is going to want to watch Dexter again. I just think you don't realize that in a thread where Dexter is 50% of the conversation, posting the shows biggest f***ing spoiler without even as much of a "spoiler ahead", or a spoiler block over a brief description, is a bit ignorant and has kind of ruined the whole show for me.

How am I going to take that into consideration? Do you want me to check every T.V show that appears on Netflix before I make a post? It finished half a year ago, people post spoilers of movies (ie: Man of Steel) in threads after such a period of time. I made an attempt to use the spoiler block and thus reported it to the Bugs section. I've gotten rid of the video though anyways. There isn't much more I can do.

@frozen: Dig dig dig your hole, straight into the ground, tunneling tunneling tunneling down, until you can't be found

Just don't post spoilers

If only I could reverse time.

Walt is pretty much close to insane after season 3. This is a guy who, when it was all said and done, absolutely destroyed everyone around him. He is nearly Joker level in terms of anarchy.

I'm telling you guys, if Walt finds out a super serial killer like Dexter is out for him, all hell would rain down.

I see tons of bodies piling up in this, lots of wreckage. It really depends on the limits Dexter puts on himself because Walt really lacks that. Or even morals in general for that matter.

Dexter was a sloppy chump.

Walt wins.

I have lost faith in humanity.

Could go either way

I win....I mean Dexter wins.

with knowledge and the prep given i dont see how dexter can lose really.

Walt has millions in drug money and access to Uncle Jack's crew. He could literally hire a crew to wipe Dexter off the face of the Earth.

Remember what happened when Dex tried to take down Little Chino and how much he struggled, just because he had a crew around and knew Dex was coming? Hell, Isaak could've killed Dexter dozens of times in Season 7 due to his resources, but didn't.

Little chino was a joke compared to Isaak Sirko and his gang. Isaak had hell trying to kill dexter and he alone took out armed a small gang who were all armed. I The fact that dexter has knowledge and prep on walter is what makes walter's crew almost non illrelevent. Dexter would find a way to bypass them.

Dexter

Dexter wins hands down until the end of Breaking Bad Walter didn't really have the stones to kill anyone. Dexter is a trained killer with experience he has been killing things since he was a kid. Unless Walter can slip some risen in his hot chocolate or build a car battery turret to gun down the police station he doesn't have a chance.

Dexter takes walt down with ease. Anyone who says walt would win is seriously underrating Dex here.

Dexter takes this.

Still dexter.

Dexter.

Walt tells Gus, the end.

Lol

Walt puts ricin in Dexter's morning coffee 3 days before the battle.

Walt has Mike track down and kill Dexter.

End.

Again, Dexter was an idiot. The only reason he got away with half the crap he did was because everyone around him was a moron.

i think with the prep walt can take this but if he fails to kill dexter the first time dexter comes back better and walt ends up a blood slide.

@consolemaster001:

Ricin prep. Almost as good as bat prep.

I've watched both, If Dex finds Walter quickly he wins, If not Walter would have no problem killing his whole family and leading him into a trap.

if they knew about each other and had one week to prepare there is almost no chance for Dexter to not end up dead, Walt is superior to him is almost every respect and science the element of surprise is off the table that tips the odds even more against dex, the only likely way would be with a sniper and Dexter doesn't know how to use one whereas Walt could always hire someone.

Dexter has a really good strategy and power. Dexter FTW!

But that isn't the scenario.

Walt only knows that there is someone killing criminals and decides to prepare and that's it.

Bump