Demiurge Wiccan vs HoM Wanda vs White Phoenix Jean

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marvelfan1992

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#1  Edited By marvelfan1992

Demiurge Wiccan vs HoM Wanda vs White Phoenix Jean

Who takes the cake?

No Caption Provided

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KillianDuclark

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Jean solos. Only threat is Wanda. Billy is fodder

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marvelfan1992

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Jean solos. Only threat is Wanda. Billy is fodder

Oh really? I'm not too familiar with him but I recently saw a demiurge vs franklin thread and a lot of people were arguing for demiurge. Was this just hype?

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KillianDuclark

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@marvelfan1992: he's highly overrated.

He has one feat of him viewing his world as comic book panels.

And a statement that implies he will rewrite the laws of magic.

But suddenly this means he stands a chance against white phoenix jean etc.

Keep in mind dead pool and spiderman have done similar things but no one wanks them as hard as they do billy

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marvelfan1992

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J2111

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@killianduclark: not you again. You obviously hate Billy. Believe it or not, all three are debatable for who wins. Demi Wiccan has a lot more than one feat. Plz get educated

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J2111

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I’d fr say Demi. He is above time, and above the multiverse. He has held the comic panels literally in his hands, and manipulated what happens in them.

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J2111

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@marvelfan1992: don’t listen to him tbh, he hates on Demi everywhere 💀 he has a lot more than one feat and statements

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DemiurgeKaplan

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#10  Edited By DemiurgeKaplan

I’ll say Wanda here. WPOTC power wasn’t really it’s “true power” and peak and her feats that hardly effected the universe still don’t hold a candle to what HOM did on a multiversal+ Level.

However you can make a solid argument with Demiurge Wiccan. Especially if YOU really know your stuff about him.

Demiurge Wiccan is definitely impressive and has far more solid feats then most people acknowledge. I mean sure what he did in Young Avengers Vol 2 was impressive. He look down upon all of the marvel multiverse in a comic book form and no Deadpool or any “gag” character hasn’t done that. Now that’s impressive but the Demiurge also creates the Utopian Parallel a entire dimension which has been stated MULTIPLE times to be outside the marvel multiverse itself. The guy is no slouch just like Jean we only saw a little glimpse of his power, WPOTC and it’s been mentioned throughout all his recent appearances he still will “ascend” to being the Demiurge. So I hope we get even more solid feats in the future.

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LordOfAllHumans

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Jean

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Scarlet_Wanda

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@demiurgekaplan: White Phoenix might stomp. From what I know, Wanda has no TP resistance and neither does Billy. HOM Wanda was unstable so I don't know if her mind will be strong enough to even try to resist WPOTC.

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DemiurgeKaplan

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@scarlet_wanda: HoM Wanda has TP resistance, she was able to prevent mind probing from strange, emma and professor x during the house of m series. WPOTC doesn’t stomp in the slightest. The “Unstable” argument here isn’t really relevant, Jean definitely doesn’t stomp here she doesn’t have the feats IMO. Demiurge Wiccan looked down at the entire multiverse and I doubt TP even effects him.

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LordOfAllHumans

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@demiurgekaplan: the only feat she needs is that she was one with the Phoenix when it was shown the white hot room was unaffected by the chaos wave and that being pulled into it undid the reality warp Wanda did to them. Rachel and Besty were no longer under the spell that made them handmaid and princess upon entering. Psylocke was then able to see all her alternate selves even the ones that would have been in realities crashed by the CW. Phoenix broke her (Wanda's) most powerful spell casually several times to allow mutants to manifest before she permanently broke that spell in AVX. Not to mention Wanda and her spell are not unique. The exact thing happened on another planet and Phoenix sent its messiah and 5 lights to undo that too. Did you say White Phoenix tp can't do anything to Wanda because Xavier and Strange failed at basic stuff? Jean without the Phoenix is the more powerful telepath add the entire Phoenix and you should realize how ridiculous what you wrote looks.

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DemiurgeKaplan

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yxzi3mo

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@killianduclark: how is he fodder...? the utopian parallel dimension is literally outside of the multiverse and time, and also casually rips holes in existence...

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KillianDuclark

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#17  Edited By KillianDuclark

@yxzi3mo: all of these things got retconed along with Miss America's origins, in the new Miss America run.

So Yh, he is fodder. Plus they were statement that could easily be argued to be hyperbolic in the first place. And was never concise with his other showings

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yxzi3mo

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I’m honestly going to say demiurge. Same with wpotc, neither have too many feats, and HoM does have the advantage there, but the feats demiurge does have are solid. He looked down at all realities (the multiverse) his dimension is outside of the multiverse and time (which may suggest it came before?) he has the capability to rewrite the rules of magic and determine magic, which means he is basically the ruler of magic, which sorta puts him above any magic user in marvel, and if we count the many statements he has, he should win lol.

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Mo_Ali

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I might be biased but I’d say Demiruige. He beat mother and almost destroyed the multiverse so that’s gotta count for something

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yxzi3mo

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#20  Edited By yxzi3mo

@killianduclark: was it really retconned? Can you please send the scans or no? And the statements were being spoken by the seemingly ruler of the utopian parallel dimension (the queen) so I doubt she would just blatantly lie. Plus, why would she, she was telling america about the utopian parallel. And he still has his other feats, like literally looking down on the multiverse...

and not concise? When he became the demiurge, he literally ascended the multiverse, and literally held all of reality (the comic panels) in his hands, proving his power over reality. So that can say that the other statements are also true...

No Caption Provided

I read a bit, and seemingly what you said is false. ‘Exile of the utopian parallel’. you also seemingly hate Billy, so I’m pretty assured you’re bias.

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KillianDuclark

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#21  Edited By KillianDuclark

@yxzi3mo: I don't Hate wiccan.

I hate his wankers.

Anyway

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/movrEyUT3S-zEm4Po_sYvHaKXQwZNzzzpPsACmgm_ev9MJLIRRQ16fCx_wzmmicaJSim96pUsopduEvTne4hXGRZEop8Ghq0VbZ0M-s34gUrWKMJsKC_EPtpNNmy-TZjCsOvTEU6uA=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f_6MBcbQxNDLgrrXjmC0VDAOxpOKfEnlUZv8pQcKYZOwm_daBlC9POpuWRiQyUj2nOyDxC15A_mOs41kIcOI46i0nmfaSUE-UTiBNVSjgxnkIHXo2c_28oO_lrNTCdDBnpoKkT3-mQ=s1600

America has been retconned to be an experiment of her human earth 616 parents.

More is still unknown, but presumably stuff like utopia may also be retconned.

I suggest reading the three issues out for full context

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yxzi3mo

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@killianduclark: does that negate her origin coming from the utopian parallel...? Also, how does this negate the utopian parallel at all? Just saying lol

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KillianDuclark

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@yxzi3mo: the entire issue revolves around everything America having been told being a lie and a fabrication.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/634UElomZXFbPUoJa6P4a8iuz7sLWYsTinh9D7EFq1kdTunBSTGbCRcPuQVOLqUYsXLW-iVRmi5V7IDtGYZrL8F1ZN-PM1-nZUHMhjLD3i7kDeHyP97ULbU-koerQigiCnJxCIrOCw=s1600

They even flat out say utopia is just a tiny island

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Y934v-iG3NRpVANkwhqbJlExL9r9BuVDNqdz2XRNSEnmIMffLzVNOolz-NaFFXB9FKrzqUThvKZK_DX_eR5-74KBCLwCD8WVZWNPL3NGgba1NKocwdrWzk-kHtsYnxisKM_Zkg06Q=s1600

Once again. Read it if you want the context.

Because, right now you are just coming across as intentionally dense and stubborn

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Roddy010

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White Phoenix ftw. She literally held a universe in her hand and even casually altered a timeline on a whim on 2 occasions. One she wasn’t even at her peak. Add to this how the WHR was not effected by Wanda’s magic.

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PyroFN

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#25  Edited By PyroFN

@demiurgekaplan said:

I’ll say Wanda here. WPOTC power wasn’t really it’s “true power” and peak and her feats that hardly effected the universe still don’t hold a candle to what HOM did on a multiversal+ Level.

What are you talking about? WPotC was literally seen in multiple realities after Here Comes Tomorrow and literally wiped out another entire universe and used the life-force of the X-Men to create a new one.

No Caption Provided

Even if we go by the single feat you are basing your entire argument against WPotC, you would have to disregard the simple fact that she literally states she cleaved an entire alternate future from the timeline

No Caption Provided

And ignore the fact that Jean had to use her telepathy from an pocket dimension to search for the exact moment Scott decided to leave the school. Only we the audience could see the events unfold because we have a third person view of every event. Not the characters in-story who weren’t even there to witness it, which means Jean had to find the moment in time Scott makes his decision from a pocket dimension and speak to him from there.

No Caption Provided

No Phoenix user has ever demonstrated power on this level and it is even stated by the Phoenix itself that Jean’s influence is unmatched by any host. For every intent and purpose, White Phoenix is the peak of the Phoenix’ powers, so far.

No Caption Provided

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DemiurgeKaplan

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#26  Edited By DemiurgeKaplan

@pyrofn:

I don’t see how her being the strongest PF host helps in this discussion but okay. Especially considering that’s common knowledge already.

Her overall feats still aren’t impressive enough.

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PyroFN

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@pyrofn:

I don’t see how her being the strongest PF host helps in this discussion but okay.

Her overall feats still aren’t impressive enough.

I wasn’t commenting on the discussion. You were spreading misinformation that I was clarifying.

”WPOTC power wasn’t really it’s “true power” and peak and her feats that hardly effected the universe”

And you don’t know her overall feats to make that conclusion. I know as much because you literally based it on her Here Comes Tomorrow feat, which was basically her barely learning her new powers.

If I wanted to contribute my two cents on the actual discussion, I would have mentioned what Jean would do in the battle, not concentrate on the misinformation you said.

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DemiurgeKaplan

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#28  Edited By DemiurgeKaplan

@pyrofn:

I do know her overall feats you just posted the vast majority. The most she did was effect the universe via time manipulation and create a universe which in itself isn’t impressive especially compared to HoM or Demiurge. At best the feats we saw her performing in that form were universal (as the scans you just showed and stated numerous times). Unless she has a solid feat of effecting multiple universes or the multiverse.

Being seen in multiple realities =/= effecting multiple realities.

But Jean doesn’t have a feat like that unless it’s a form of hyperbole. Which is unfortunate, especially for a form that’s supposed to be peak PF.

I also don’t see any miss information spread on my part besides the “wasn’t her true power statement” that’s my bad. Saying her feats aren’t impressive enough is definitely a fair conclusion, but if that’s how you feel then oh well.

What I’m trying to say overall is that for her “peak” the feats should be far more impressive then they currently are. Which they are sadly not.

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PyroFN

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#29  Edited By PyroFN

@demiurgekaplan said:

@pyrofn:

I do know her overall feats you just posted the vast majority. The most she did was effect the universe via time manipulation and create a universe which in itself isn’t impressive especially compared to HoM or Demiurge. At best the feats we saw her performing in that form were universal (as the scans you just showed and stated numerous times). Unless she has a solid feat of effecting multiple universes or the multiverse.

Being seen in multiple realities =/= effecting multiple realities.

But Jean doesn’t have a feat like that unless it’s a form of hyperbole. Which is unfortunate, especially for a form that’s supposed to be peak PF.

I also don’t see any miss information spread on my part besides the “wasn’t her true power statement” that’s my bad. Saying her feats aren’t impressive enough is definitely a fair conclusion, but if that’s how you feel then oh well.

What I’m trying to say overall is that for her “peak” the feats should be far more impressive then they currently are. Which they are sadly not.

1) “I do know her overall feats you just posted the vast majority

No, I didn’t. I posted two at most if you group Here Comes Tomorrow and the anniversary issue. Three if you divide the Here Comes Tomorrow feat in sections.

Either way, White Phoenix is not limited to a max of three feats. You proved my point with this statement alone that you really have no clue.

2) “The most she did was effect the universe via time manipulation and create a universe which in itself isn’t impressive especially compared to HoM or Demiurge

And transdimensional telepathy. The White Hot Room is not in the 616, so saying she only manipulated the universe via time manipulation is ignoring the setting she is in.

3) “At best the feats we saw her performing in that form were universal (as the scans you just showed and stated numerous times)

No, the best we’ve seen is her literally destroying an entire universe and creating a new one from the life-force of the X-Men casually. I literally showed this in my previous comment.

4) “Unless she has a solid feat of effecting multiple universes or the multiverse

The Phoenix Force does and White Phoenix has access to all that power, quoted by the Phoenix itself.

5) “Being seen in multiple realities =/= effecting multiple realities

Did I say that she only appeared in other universes? Are you simply ignoring that scan of her creating a new universe out of an old one?

6) “But Jean doesn’t have a feat like that unless it’s a form of hyperbole

I have literally shown you nothing but feats. The only statement that I put was Phoenix stating she was the most powerful and influential host, which comparing feats to other avatars makes it true.

7) “I also don’t see any miss information spread on my part besides the “wasn’t her true power statement” that’s my bad

You literally said it hardly effected the universe.

WPOTC power wasn’t really it’s “true power” and peak and her feats that hardly effected the universe

Cuts off the future from the timeline. Yet, it hardly affected the universe. You can say the present or past was unaffected by that feat, but are we just gonna limit her ability to just communicating to Scott, as if her choosing to kill Scott then and there was impossible for her after just showing us she was cutting off the future from the timeline? If your opinion is HOM Wanda wins, fine, but it won’t be off of misinformation.

Jean chose a passive route to fix the future. That isn’t a limitation. It was a choice she made.

8) “Saying her feats aren’t impressive enough is definitely a fair conclusion, but if that’s how you feel then oh well.”

Like I said, think what you want, but you are not gonna do that by saying she only has one feat that hardly affected the universe as if to imply her limits are just that Here Comes Tomorrow feat. That is when I will step in and say, “Hey, that isn’t correct”.

9) “What I’m trying to say overall is that for her “peak” the feats should be far more impressive then they currently are. Which they are sadly not.”

Like I said, all you did was reference Here Comes Tomorrow and I brought one feat. That is not the majority of White Phoenix’ feats and I am pretty sure past information and feats of the Phoenix Force can be used to contribute to what White Phoenix is capable of.

A new form does not mean she forgets all that she or the Phoenix Force learned in the past.

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BDBB06

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@demiurgekaplan: Y'know, I thought She didn't do stuff either, But you Know Wanda didn't make the chaos wave right? She just made a breach in reality that the chaos wave traveled through, I'm So sick of Wanda Fanboys, Riding Wanda On how she reality warped on a multiversal level When Multiple people in the comics said it was only global level like earths protector.

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BDBB06

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Demiurge if He can Actually warp reality when viewing through those comic book pages, Just depends. But wanda isn't on this scale In my honest Opinion

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BDBB06

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@pyrofn:

I do know her overall feats you just posted the vast majority. The most she did was effect the universe via time manipulation and create a universe which in itself isn’t impressive especially compared to HoM or Demiurge. At best the feats we saw her performing in that form were universal (as the scans you just showed and stated numerous times). Unless she has a solid feat of effecting multiple universes or the multiverse.

Being seen in multiple realities =/= effecting multiple realities.

But Jean doesn’t have a feat like that unless it’s a form of hyperbole. Which is unfortunate, especially for a form that’s supposed to be peak PF.

I also don’t see any miss information spread on my part besides the “wasn’t her true power statement” that’s my bad. Saying her feats aren’t impressive enough is definitely a fair conclusion, but if that’s how you feel then oh well.

What I’m trying to say overall is that for her “peak” the feats should be far more impressive then they currently are. Which they are sadly not.

Yet. Wanda Hasn't even held a universe, This is just like the FP Legion Vs HOM Wanda All Over Again With you.

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DemiurgeKaplan

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#35  Edited By DemiurgeKaplan

@bdbb06: Dang you are obsessed with me my guy. You keep spamming me, my notifications are flooded with you’re name. You wanted my attention that badly huh? HoM Wanda > FP Legion. HoM Wanda doesn’t need to hold a universe to be impressive when she effected the multiverse, resurrected MJJ, etc. But I respect your opinion.

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Kymilia

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BDBB06

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@demiurgekaplan: How Did She Effect the multiverse, She didn't even make the chaos wave.

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BDBB06

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#38  Edited By BDBB06

And it wasn't "Obsessed when i @ you 2 or 3 times between this thread and the legion one, Which all Wanda fanboys Always say that same thing "She made the chaos wave." Or "She Warped the Multiverse" OR Even "She warped the Omniversal

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BDBB06

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And I already Stated Many times, Tons of people in the comics stated her HOM reality was only global, Not even universal

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BDBB06

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When those feats get debunked About Every thread Wanda is mentioned in, But they Just Stay relentless on a false feat. the only thing multiversal was the fact that she made reality unstable (Not a truly big feat) And the chaos wave found it as a chance to breach since reality was weak.

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BDBB06

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Mean while Jean Holds the Entire universe in her hands Like it was a baby, And can easily Heal them, And even defected The No More Mutants Rule.

Hence, the Lights. She also helped Slow and stop The Chaos Wave.

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mm7910

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Any could possibly take it but I rank this as HOM most likely, then Demiurge, then white phoenix.

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mm7910

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@godlyshinigami: I'll admit I'm biased. I don't like any incarnation of Phoenix.

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PyroFN

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@bdbb06 said:

And I already Stated Many times, Tons of people in the comics stated her HOM reality was only global, Not even universal

No, it was definitely more than global. It’s multiversal.

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Scarlet_Wanda

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@pyrofn: There are statements to imply that it was omniversal but I guess multiversal is more balanced or something

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PyroFN

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@pyrofn: There are statements to imply that it was omniversal but I guess multiversal is more balanced or something

Omniversal is sometimes used in reference to the marvel multiverse. In absolution, it should mean beyond Marvel and into other franchises in fiction, but they love to loosely use the word “omniversal” to hype up statements more than they should be.

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BDBB06

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@pyrofn: Jesus, I've said this in so many Threads, She didn't make the chaos wave. She caused it cause she messed with reality, and her being mentally unstable made it so a breach happened in reality. From there, the Chaos wave was its own thing, Not once did she do it. and it doesn't count as a True feat as the chaos wave is it's own thing.

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BDBB06

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#50  Edited By BDBB06

@pyrofn: Also That's Earth I Believe in another dimension, But still part of earth..? I believe. And Of Course, she was freaking out Cause that's Meggan, She either felt the Fear of the empaths Or just knew in general cause she's connected to the earth.