Demi-fiend vs Team Fate/Extra

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uriel_220

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SainguineXshadow

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what the hell why was this not locked this is beyond spite demifiend is multiversal the highest person on fate team who has shit showings is kiara and she is solar system lvl but loses to gil whose highest lvl destruction feat is planet lvl and the rest aren't but win anyway.

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zgtfreak

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#3  Edited By zgtfreak

Meh, I usually don't bump, but you bump with downplay, so I bump with facts.

Any single person here (except Kiara and Anderson) can beat Demi-fiend, and Gilgamesh outright slaughters him. Mystic Code Servants can take on a weakened (but still beyond multiversal BB). Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh can solo Demi-Fiend and his own team at the same time.

BB fused with the Moon Cell, a device that can create and has full control over one (to possible three) infinite sized spaces. The Moon Cell also simulates and stores infinite possible futures, making them exist to some degree as they can be stored. BB can also destroy dimensions, reality itself, is above time itself, and is omnipresent. Despite being weakened, she was still at that general level and was defeated by the four Servants after they obtained their Mystic Code. At full power BB might be above or equal to three of the Mystic Code Servants (Genesis Gilgamesh can still stomp a full power BB). All Servants have to move faster than time as well since BB would blitz them otherwise. BB is also 8D (to possibly 9D). Lower dimensional beings can't even exist in higher in Fate/Extra CCC, meaning higher dimensions are completely superior to lower.

Outside of Kiara and Anderson, this is basically a pick who you want to kill Demi-Fiend scenario, in which case I'll choose Nero to solo Demi-Fiend.

Yes, I know Demi-Fiend is insanely OP, but he can't contend with Nasuverse god tiers. Gilgamesh might be able to go toe-to-toe with YHVH (maybe).

I can post evidence for these claims if anyone ask.

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SwagPack

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This is indeed a spite, since BB's presence alone shits on Demi-Fiend.

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deactivated-61364388226ff

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Have they become new Power Ups to put them all to Multiversal + ? o.O

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zgtfreak

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#6  Edited By zgtfreak

@caocao: Mystic Code CCC Servants have always been multiversal; they are beyond infinite multiversal actually. No one has played CCC so they don't know; even the ones that do don't know of the specific details and cosmology. I think Gilgamesh can take YHVH personally. Demi-Fiend is factually no match for anyone here except Kiara and Anderson. I'll just send my copy paste my mini feats dump I made. I will eventually make a detailed RT (if I ever learn how to make one), but until then, I must just send this to people.

CCC Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh cannot be compared to his planet level Fate counterpart, as Extraverse works entirely different. CCC Gilgamesh is at least multiversal. He defeated BB, who became a higher dimensional being that fused with a device that simulates and physically stores infinite possible futures. BB is also able to destroy reality after fusing with the Moon Cell and has shown to do so. Even Hakuno is capable of reshaping reality when fusing with the Moon Cell.

https://s9.postimg.cc/6dn1vbg4f/Untitled2.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/wcmtp68vz/Untitled3.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/weajnwevz/Untitled4.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/6iqt4rxnj/Untitled5.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/htfonsibz/Untitled6.png

"Rani :: The Holy Grail is an observational device that simulates the future of the Earth, and stores those records continuously, at regular intervals. It has been doing so since the beginning of human history. Though it is supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon. To obtain the Moon Cell means to be able to search out the future you wish for from among all of those, and put it into effect." < < < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/entry-141-ellipsis/

We learn from Twice Piecemen in Fate/Extra (the game before Fate/Extra CCC) that the futures that Rani speak of are indeed infinite. Also simulating and storing infinite possibilities ALONE is storing infinite different outcomes, which is what timelines are, infinite different outcomes. Not only that, but storing something that is infinite is infinite, period. The Moon Cell has complete rule over it's domain/reality, meaning it can easily erase said infinite physically stored futures as easy as it simulates and stores them. BB fusing with the Moon Cell completely means she also has this power; so BB can create and erase something of infinite size. These possibilities also exist because the Moon Cell not only simulates, but stores them, making these possibilities exist to some degree like timelines, since they can be stored as if they exist. Even if you say they aren't similar to timelines, storing something of infinite size is infinite (as I said before).

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/3/39/BBCCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160210191518

^^^^^

"Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.)

An attack on the world by BB in control of the Moon Cell.

Also called the spirit particle imaginary pit.

A world purge by means of event rewriting, making maximum use of the EX skill “Potnia Theron” BB had acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of the earth goddesses who created the earth is, in other words, the “root” that created all creation.

This Noble Phantasm is an anti-world Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3d printer and crushes the present world with the world desired by the user.

The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. CCC as the name suggests is a cursed pit that bores out reality.

In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of writing over and rewriting information of fields such as luck and coincidence.

While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravity fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

When used in combat, BB’s familiars, the shapeshifters engulf the target, and after turning into a sphere, is wiped out of existence along with the target and the dimension with it."

Calling CCC planet level because it's called "Anti World" is vastly out of context.

The Moon Cell can create 8D structures and 5D realms where lower dimensional beings can't even exist in. The Moon Cell completely failed in all attempts to kill Gilgamesh as well. Gilgamesh can even move inside the Far Side, which is a higher dimensional realm where time itself doesn't work properly and no living being is able to survive in it. He also defeated BB, who is omnipresent and not bound by time. This makes Gilgamesh (contrary to popular belief) faster than time itself, not MFTL. The feat of him getting back from 1,500 light years was more than just distance; Kiara threw Gilgamesh into conceptual space and it shows a beam of light come across the screen and he is back. His speed would also have to be beyond time because BB's existence encompasses the entire Moon Cell and is above time itself, as she can look down upon the past present, and future all at once, and can interact with each point in time as she pleases. Base BB (before fusing with the Moon Cell) could put herself in unlimited time even, meaning even BASE BB isn't properly bound by time. Gilgamesh would get blitzed by BB if he was simply MFTL.

Gilgamesh in Far Side> "There also exists the Far Side of the Moon (月の裏側, Tsuki no Uragawa?), an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the “exterior of the world”, and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned.[7] Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there."

"Due to BB surfacing and gaining power as an Advanced A.I., she begins an extensive reconstruction and periods of resetting to work towards her goals. This allows for someone to contact Gilgamesh even when it should be impossible. The end result of her work is Cursed Cutting Crater, a real space in the present, past, and future. Establishing it as a "place", even Masters can exist there. It is not possible to hack the Moon Cell however much time is spent, but she is able to take control of it by placing herself in “unlimited time” through the power of the primordial goddesses she has taken into herself"

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Cell#Far_Side

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/entry-143-why-we-cant-win/ < Rin speaking about omnipresent BB.

^ Rin also says BB has a higher dimensional existence, not just perspective. "Think of it as a higher dimensional existence." Base BB before fusing with the Moon Cell can live in and effect the Far Side (this debunk is meant for Vsbattles fans who think BB is not higher dimensional).

Gilgamesh also can destroy the Moon Cell's reality marble (although the Moon Cell is capable of bringing it back briefly after) via the spinning of Ea alone. The Moon Cell's reality marble acts like a normal reality, despite it being virtual. The reality marble contains the Far Side, the Near Side, and at least one infinite sized area where the Moon Cell stores infinite futures. There was another infinite sized space between the seventh layer and the core, but since I haven't searched for the link, you can dismiss it for now. There is also a possible infinite sized space in the Near Side. https://s22.postimg.cc/zbme22idd/Untitled7.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/1/11/EACCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150831154656 < Gilgamesh destroying the Moon Cell reality marble.

So Gilgamesh destroyed a reality that contains one undeniable infinite sized space (which is a multiversal feat), and possibly two more infinite sized spaces (megaversal feat). He also defeated BB, who fused/became the Moon Cell itself.

Now time for debunking debunks.

A common CCC debunk is Gilgamesh was on par with average Servants. No. His Servant contract with Hakuno massively weakened him until he gets his Mystic Code.

"Gilgamesh :: …still, this isn’t good. While it was a delight to experience the dilemmas of the weak, there is a limit to it. To be pushed about from start to finish by a second-rate Servant…it’s almost disheartening."

"That’s not Gilgamesh’s responsibility. While his physical condition did degrade during his long sleep, the original cause of it is my own failings." < Hakuno, Gilgamesh's master speaking. < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/entry-36-another-secret-another-garden/

Another weak debunk is that Nasu stated Types are the strongest despite being solar system level at best, wrong. That statement was made before Fate/Extra even existed.

And yet another weak debunk is that the Moon Cell is not higher dimensional since it couldn't kill Arcuied, wrong. Arcuied only survived a deletion wall meant for average servants, Hakuno saying the Moon Cell doesn't have authority over her is just Hakuno speaking. Hakuno knows nothing hardly about the Moon Cell at that time and just made an assumption. Even if it was true, having more authority isn't the same as being more powerful. All Acruied did was survive a deletion wall only meant for servants. We also have no idea how powerful Extraverse Arcuied is. Arcueid also has an ability that makes her faster, stronger, and more durable than ANYONE she is facing, so this is an invalid debunk.

Gilgamesh also has loads of hax resistances, to quote the TERRIBLY INACCURATE (but accurate on this for some reason) Vsbattles wiki "After obtaining the power of the Root of the Beginning, BB, who is able to manipulate space-time, causality, probability, information, gravity, life, death, minds, senses, powers, and souls through her usage of Potnia Theron, was unable to affect Gilgamesh due to being opposed by a power of equal potency." Gilgamesh also can't be harmed by physical means since he is a spirit.

I hope for the day I don't have to keep posting this.

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deactivated-61364388226ff

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@zgtfreak said:

@caocao: Mystic Code CCC Servants have always been multiversal; they are beyond infinite multiversal actually. No one has played CCC so they don't know; even the ones that do don't know of the specific details and cosmology. I think Gilgamesh can take YHVH personally. Demi-fiend is factually no match for anyone here except Kiara and Anderson. I'll just send my copy paste my mini feats dump I made. I will eventually make a detailed RT (if I ever learn how to make one), but until then, I must just send this to people.

CCC Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh cannot be compared to his planet level Fate counterpart, as Extraverse works entirely different. CCC Gilgamesh is at least multiversal. He defeated BB, who became a higher dimensional being that fused with a device that simulates and physically stores infinite possible futures. BB is also able to destroy reality after fusing with the Moon Cell and has shown to do so. Even Hakuno is capable of reshaping reality when fusing with the Moon Cell.

https://s9.postimg.cc/6dn1vbg4f/Untitled2.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/wcmtp68vz/Untitled3.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/weajnwevz/Untitled4.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/6iqt4rxnj/Untitled5.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/htfonsibz/Untitled6.png

"Rani :: The Holy Grail is an observational device that simulates the future of the Earth, and stores those records continuously, at regular intervals. It has been doing so since the beginning of human history. Though it is supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon. To obtain the Moon Cell means to be able to search out the future you wish for from among all of those, and put it into effect." < < < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/entry-141-ellipsis/

We learn from Twice Piecemen in Fate/Extra (the game before Fate/Extra CCC) that the futures that Rani speak of are indeed infinite. Also simulating and storing infinite possibilities ALONE is storing infinite different outcomes, which is what timelines are, infinite different outcomes. Not only that, but storing something that is infinite is infinite, period. The Moon Cell has complete rule over it's domain/reality, meaning it can easily erase said infinite physically stored futures as easy as it simulates and stores them. BB fusing with the Moon Cell completely means she also has this power; so BB can create and erase something of infinite size. These possibilities also exist because the Moon Cell not only simulates, but stores them, making these possibilities exist to some degree like timelines, since they can be stored as if they exist. Even if you say they aren't similar to timelines, storing something of infinite size is infinite (as I said before).

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/3/39/BBCCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160210191518

^^^^^

"Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.)

An attack on the world by BB in control of the Moon Cell.

Also called the spirit particle imaginary pit.

A world purge by means of event rewriting, making maximum use of the EX skill “Potnia Theron” BB had acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of the earth goddesses who created the earth is, in other words, the “root” that created all creation.

This Noble Phantasm is an anti-world Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3d printer and crushes the present world with the world desired by the user.

The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. CCC as the name suggests is a cursed pit that bores out reality.

In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of writing over and rewriting information of fields such as luck and coincidence.

While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravity fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

When used in combat, BB’s familiars, the shapeshifters engulf the target, and after turning into a sphere, is wiped out of existence along with the target and the dimension with it."

Calling CCC planet level because it's called "Anti World" is vastly out of context.

The Moon Cell can create 8D structures and 5D realms where lower dimensional beings can't even exist in. The Moon Cell completely failed in all attempts to kill Gilgamesh as well. Gilgamesh can even move inside the Far Side, which is a higher dimensional realm where time itself doesn't work properly and no living being is able to survive in it. He also defeated BB, who is omnipresent and not bound by time. This makes Gilgamesh (contrary to popular belief) faster than time itself, not MFTL. The feat of him getting back from 1,500 light years was more than just distance; Kiara threw Gilgamesh into conceptual space and it shows a beam of light come across the screen and he is back. His speed would also have to be beyond time because BB's existence encompasses the entire Moon Cell and is above time itself, as she can look down upon the past present, and future all at once, and can interact with each point in time as she pleases. Base BB (before fusing with the Moon Cell) could put herself in unlimited time even, meaning even BASE BB isn't properly bound by time. Gilgamesh would get blitzed by BB if he was simply MFTL.

Gilgamesh in Far Side> "There also exists the Far Side of the Moon (月の裏側, Tsuki no Uragawa?), an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the “exterior of the world”, and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned.[7] Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there."

"Due to BB surfacing and gaining power as an Advanced A.I., she begins an extensive reconstruction and periods of resetting to work towards her goals. This allows for someone to contact Gilgamesh even when it should be impossible. The end result of her work is Cursed Cutting Crater, a real space in the present, past, and future. Establishing it as a "place", even Masters can exist there. It is not possible to hack the Moon Cell however much time is spent, but she is able to take control of it by placing herself in “unlimited time” through the power of the primordial goddesses she has taken into herself"

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Cell#Far_Side

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/entry-143-why-we-cant-win/ < Rin speaking about omnipresent BB.

^ Rin also says BB has a higher dimensional existence, not just perspective. "Think of it as a higher dimensional existence." Base BB before fusing with the Moon Cell can live in and effect the Far Side (this debunk is meant for Vsbattles fans who think BB is not higher dimensional).

Gilgamesh also can destroy the Moon Cell's reality marble (although the Moon Cell is capable of bringing it back briefly after) via the spinning of Ea alone. The Moon Cell's reality marble acts like a normal reality, despite it being virtual. The reality marble contains the Far Side, the Near Side, and at least one infinite sized area where the Moon Cell stores infinite futures. There was another infinite sized space between the seventh layer and the core, but since I haven't searched for the link, you can dismiss it for now. There is also a possible infinite sized space in the Near Side. https://s22.postimg.cc/zbme22idd/Untitled7.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/1/11/EACCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150831154656 < Gilgamesh destroying the Moon Cell reality marble.

So Gilgamesh destroyed a reality that contains one undeniable infinite sized space (which is a multiversal feat), and possibly two more infinite sized spaces (megaversal feat). He also defeated BB, who fused/became the Moon Cell itself.

Now time for debunking debunks.

A common CCC debunk is Gilgamesh was on par with average Servants. No. His Servant contract with Hakuno massively weakened him until he gets his Mystic Code.

"Gilgamesh :: …still, this isn’t good. While it was a delight to experience the dilemmas of the weak, there is a limit to it. To be pushed about from start to finish by a second-rate Servant…it’s almost disheartening."

"That’s not Gilgamesh’s responsibility. While his physical condition did degrade during his long sleep, the original cause of it is my own failings." < Hakuno, Gilgamesh's master speaking. < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/entry-36-another-secret-another-garden/

Another weak debunk is that Nasu stated Types are the strongest despite being solar system level at best, wrong. That statement was made before Fate/Extra even existed.

And yet another weak debunk is that the Moon Cell is not higher dimensional since it couldn't kill Arcuied, wrong. Arcuied only survived a deletion wall meant for average servants, Hakuno saying the Moon Cell doesn't have authority over her is just Hakuno speaking. Hakuno knows nothing hardly about the Moon Cell at that time and just made an assumption. Even if it was true, having more authority isn't the same as being more powerful. All Acruied did was survive a deletion wall only meant for servants. We also have no idea how powerful Extraverse Arcuied is. Arcueid also has an ability that makes her faster, stronger, and more durable than ANYONE she is facing, so this is an invalid debunk.

Gilgamesh also has loads of hax resistances, to quote the TERRIBLY INACCURATE (but accurate on this for some reason) Vsbattles wiki "After obtaining the power of the Root of the Beginning, BB, who is able to manipulate space-time, causality, probability, information, gravity, life, death, minds, senses, powers, and souls through her usage of Potnia Theron, was unable to affect Gilgamesh due to being opposed by a power of equal potency." Gilgamesh also can't be harmed by physical means since he is a spirit.

I hope for the day I don't have to keep posting this.

Thanks, mate.

I am suprised.

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EjorpSnruteR

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#8  Edited By EjorpSnruteR

Infinite sized space is not multiversal. I don't even know how one comes to that conclusion.

Demi-fiend shakes and bakes the entire Fate verse.

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zgtfreak

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#9  Edited By zgtfreak

@ejorpsnruter: One infinite sized space stores infinite possible futures, which are similar to timeliness. Also 3 (or even 2) infinite spaces>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiversal. BB also destroys 4D space casually.

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EjorpSnruteR

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#10  Edited By EjorpSnruteR

@zgtfreak said:

@ejorpsnruter: One infinite sized space stores infinite possible futures, which are similar to timeliness. Also 3 (or even 2) infinite spaces>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiversal.

That's not the case at all. Unless it was explicitly mentioned that infinite futures exist, having an infinite space =/= multiversal. It's universal and universal only.

The highest end of universal, but still only universal.

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zgtfreak

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#11  Edited By zgtfreak

@ejorpsnruter: Rani says the Moon Cell simulates and stores futures, Twice confirms they are infinite. The fact they are simulated and can be stored makes them exist. Also once again, three infinities>>>>>multiversal

Infinity being high-end universal? I hope you aren't taking that from Vsbattles. Also, even if it was universal (which it isn't), destroying an infinite sized universe=destroying an infinite multiverse that has universes with finite space; however infinite futures equates to a multiverse, so this doesn't matter. Infinite futures along with the other two infinite spaces, and then other finite spaces>>>>>>>>>>an infinite multiverse.

As for the entire Nasuverse (as you call Fateverse), it has Akasha, who is above the entire multiverse and all dimensions; even Genesis Gilgamesh is an ant compared to her. She solos SMT, not the other way around.

So no, no one in SMT is soloing the Nasuverse.

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SwagPack

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@ejorpsnruter:

One domain of reality within the Moon Cell contains infinite amount of timelines.

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maxxcveiler

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demi-fiend godsmacks the team into another world

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SwagPack

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@maxxcveiler:

You need to add an actual argument otherwise your reply is irrelevant at best.

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zgtfreak

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#15  Edited By zgtfreak

@swagpack said:

@ejorpsnruter:

One domain of reality within the Moon Cell contains infinite amount of timelines.

Wasn't that in Extella only, or was that mentioned in Extra as well?

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SwagPack

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@zgtfreak:

We already knew from Extra that the Moon Cell simulates timelines, but Extella explained that the Moon Cell also stores all of Fate timelines and simulates them. And that they are not mere simulations, but actual timelines.

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zgtfreak

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#17  Edited By zgtfreak

@swagpack: Well I don't use Extella, as it contradicts Extra's feats and lore, and turns Gilgamesh into the Moon Cell's bitch. I feel that if we use Extella, then we must use nerfed Gilgamesh, ect.

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Chaos239

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Demi-Fiend stomps

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SwagPack

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@zgtfreak:

You can use it if it doesn't contradict something so heavily. In this instance it only further explains certain mechanics.

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zgtfreak

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#20  Edited By zgtfreak

@chaos239: I notice how Demi-Fiend backers give no counter argument.

Gilgamesh comes in to solo Demi-Fiend and accidentally solos the rest of the verse at the same time via a single swing of Ea, and then proceeds to fight YHVH.

This is CCC we are talking about, not fodder Fate timeline characters.

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SwagPack

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Agreed that saying "he stomps" without providing an actual argument makes you a poor debater.

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Grabz

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#22  Edited By Grabz
@zgtfreak said:

@ejorpsnruter: Also 3 (or even 2) infinite spaces>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiversal.

Hahaha what? Calm down with the Fate wank.

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TheTopContender

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Wow incredible amounts of highballing ITT.

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zgtfreak

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#24  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: Calm down on Demi-Fiend wank since you have no counterargument.

@thetopcontender Debunk the "highballing" then and explain how it's high-balling.

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AbyssFleet

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Team stomps that Fodder

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Grabz

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#26  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak said:

@grabz: Calm down on Demi-fiend wank since you have no counterargument.

Fate CCC has absolutely zero Multiversal feats, "destroying multiple infinite spaces" does not equate to Multiversal or Megaversal (lol) by any stretch of the imagination, merely Multi-Universe. The Moon Cell holds an infinite record of every single potential possibility in Earth's history? What about the Amala Network that holds an infinite Multiverse with infinite Universes that all went through infinite cycles of destruction and rebirth? Faster than time? Higher-dimensional? Who do you think these characters are facing up against? A guy who survived the total destruction of said Multiverse, and went on to bigger and better things like waging war on the creator of the Megaverse itself. Even with your blatant highballs and fan wanking I fail to see how any of these characters can "solo" Demi-Fiend, let alone SMT like you boldly claim, and bringing up Akasha is pointless when SMT already has (arguably) multiple equivalents.

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#27  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: Infinite simulated and stored futures is a very similar thing to timelines, and infinite timelines equates to a multiverse. Three infinities alone is of a much larger size than a single infinite multiverse, as three infinities of ANY kind>>>>>>one infinity (one infinite multiverse). But the infinite simulated futures is specifically multiversal regardless, as that is a very similar thing to timelines . The only time an infinite multiverse would be higher than three infinities is if all the universes in said multiverse were infinite as well (which is not the case for SMT if I remember correctly).

SMT is an EXTREMELY powerful verse, but I say Gilgamesh ONLY is able to solo the verse and go head-to-head with YHVH, as Gilgamesh possesses MANY hax and stomped omnipresent fused with a beyond multiversal 8D to possibly 9D construct (BB). The mere wind pressure of Ea charging up via spinning goes beyond the laws of physics and destroyed the Moon Cell reality Marble; him actually firing it not only rips apart space-time and reality, but returns everything to nothingness on impact. Gilgamesh is also nigh-omniscient if he fully activates SNI (Sha Naqba Imuru) which allows him to look down upon all outcomes and hidden truths so he can make the correct decision. Enkidu allows Gilgamesh to bind anyone with high divinity, making the chains unbreakable against said people (Berserker breaking out in UBW anime was non canon and never happened in the VN). Gilgamesh has countless hax such as immortality disabling swords, multi-dimensional defenses, ect. The list goes on and on and on.

As for speed, the reason I said all the Servants' speeds are extremely impressive EVEN for faster than time characters is because they fought BB, aka an omnipresent being that exist in the past, present, and future, and is everywhere in the Moon Cell since she fused with it. You'd have to be beyond time to not get blitzed by her before the fight even began, so this MFTL only is nonsense, as many people say this because they never played CCC and don't even know BB exist or that she is omnipresent (making MFTL characters impossible to win).

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#28  Edited By Grabz
@zgtfreak said:

@grabz: Infinite simulated and stored futures is a very similar thing to timelines, and infinite timelines equates to a multiverse. Three infinities alone is of a much larger size than a single infinite multiverse, as three infinities of ANY kind>>>>>>one infinity (one infinite multiverse). But the infinite simulated futures is specifically multiversal regardless, as that is a very similar thing to timelines . The only time an infinite multiverse would be higher than three infinities is if all the universes in said multiverse were infinite as well (which is not the case for SMT if I remember correctly).

SMT is an EXTREMELY powerful verse, but I say Gilgamesh ONLY is able to solo the verse and go head-to-head with YHVH, as Gilgamesh possesses MANY hax and stomped omnipresent fused with a beyond multiversal 8D to possibly 9D construct (BB). The mere wind pressure of Ea charging up via spinning goes beyond the laws of physics and destroyed the Moon Cell reality Marble; him actually firing it not only rips apart space-time and reality, but returns everything to nothingness on impact. Gilgamesh is also nigh-omniscient if he fully activates SNI (Sha Naqba Imuru) which allows him to look down upon all outcomes and hidden truths so he can make the correct decision. Enkidu allows Gilgamesh to bind anyone with high divinity, making the chains unbreakable against said people (Berserker breaking out in UBW anime was non canon and never happened in the VN). Gilgamesh has countless hax such as immortality disabling swords, multi-dimensional defenses, ect. The list goes on and on and on.

As for speed, the reason I said all the Servants' speeds are extremely impressive EVEN for faster than time characters is because they fought BB, aka an omnipresent being that exist in the past, present, and future, and is everywhere in the Moon Cell since she fused with it. You'd have to be beyond time to not get blitzed by her before the fight even began, so this MFTL only is nonsense, as many people say this because they never played CCC and don't even know BB exist or that she is omnipresent (making MFTL characters impossible to win).

3 Universes is not the size of 3 Multiverses, and the infinite simulated futures isn't Multiversal because they do not expand the scope beyond Earth. There is nothing suggesting SMT doesn't have infinite sized Universes considering they all go through infinite conceptions and more or less function as normal Universes unless you can actually prove otherwise.

Everything you say after this point is pretty much meaningless fluff because it's both neither out of Demi-Fiend's scope and probably massive hyperbole depending on who you ask.

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#29  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: Changing what happens to the Earth would effect the entire timeline.

Nothing states that Nasuverse doesn't have infinite sized universes either, but I am not going to argue that it does simply because it was never stated that it doesn't. Both Nasuverse and SMT have finite sized universes until proven otherwise, because universes are not usually considered infinite. Do not wank Demi-Fiend by saying he is above an infinite multiverse with infinite sized universes, because I can do the same with CCC Servants (which I am not going to because it is pure wank).

The Amala Network is a single infinite multiverse with finite sized universes, meaning the Amala Network is one infinity. Even if you disregard two of the Moon Cell's infinite realms (since one is just a name and one I've been too lazy to fetch the link for), the infinite futures is stored in the Moon Cell, which the mere spinning of Gilgamesh's sword destroyed, since it destroyed the Moon Cell's reality marble itself (as you can see they are in space after the destruction of the reality marble). So the act of Ea simply spinning destroyed the equivalent to the Amala Network in terms of size, let alone actually firing it. Then we can add on the fact that Gilgamesh defeated an 8D to possibly 9D being (I can fetch the 9D theory if you want). CCC states normal people can't even exist in higher dimensions, meaning dimensional tierring exist. Gilgamesh also stomping Moon Cell fused BB (who has all the Moon Cell's powers basically) backs this up.

If I was actually wanking, I'd mention the Moon Cell's ACTUAL timelines that it stores from Extella (even though Extella is a different canon to the original Extra and CCC video games). I could even wank and say Gilgamesh is on a similar level to Akasha since he draws power from the Root with his Genesis Mystic Code, however all of this is pure wank that I'd never use.

As for people that call this hyperbole, most people have never played CCC due to it not being fully translated, and usually they take info from Vsbattles. Most people do not know of the Moon Cell's cosmology, and thus think CCC Gilgamesh scales to his planetary range Fate counterpart. People think CCC Gilagmesh is only billions of times MFTL since he crossed 1,500 light years in a second or less, yet since they only know of this commonly mentioned feat and have never played the game, they do not know that he kept pace and stomped and omnipresent being above time itself (making MFTL impossible due to hilarious blitzing issues).

Demi-Fiend cannot survive Enuma Elish, as it returns everything to nothingness, which completely ignores durability. I don't even think Demi-Fiend can beat Nero, Shirou/Nameless (Archer), and Tamamo, since they too all beat a weakened BB (weakened BB is still on the same general level of the Moon Cell and is far more impressive than Demi-Fiend with her hax alone). Gilgamesh is completely out of the question, as he can instantly one shot BB.

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#30  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak:

What the hell are you spouting about "universes are not usually considered infinite" crap from? Multiverse theory and the theory of our Universe being infinite do not conflict. I'm under the assumption that a UNIVERSE should be considered infinite in size unless proven otherwise. A glorified supercomputer that records the data for a single planet is supposedly infinite in capacity but not the God Damn Universe? Give me a break.

Once again stop lowballing SMT, "finite sized universes" and "one infinity" are massive downplays. "Infinite sized realm" (whatever this means in this context) in the end is only Universe level at the absolute best (and I am being generous with you here). I still have trouble grasping how destroying this so-called "Brain of the planet" is Universal level but I will take your word for it this time because no matter what it's still well below Demi-Fiend. Also 8D or 9D could matter less in this argument, this isn't vsbattleswiki.

I COULD also wank that Demi-Fiend managed to touch and harm Stephen, a blatant higher-dimensional metahuman well above anything shown in SMT's Megaverse (and CCC for that matter), but that is also pure wank since it's non-canon and he was holding back to some unknown extent.

If you feel that strongly about CCC being undermined, fine. Don't heavily undermine SMT in the process.

But Demi-Fiend already survived the Multiverse being eviscerated into nothingness? Did you forget how Demi-Fiend has both major hax nullification and resistance? lol at Nero, Archer, Tamamo not immediately getting fodderized and lol at BB having more impressive hax than Demi-Fiend.

So in the end you proved that throughout all of this CCC is still below Multiversal, therefore below Demi-Fiend. Your arbitrary quota on what you consider a Multiverse not withstanding of course.

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#31  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: There are plenty of fictions that have finite sized universes. Nothing suggest that SMT, Nasuverse, or real life have infinite sized universes.

The Moon Cell isn't the "Brain of The Planet"; it has nothing to do with Earth aside from observing it. If we are going off names, the Moon Cell is actually known as the "Eye of God" and BB was referred to as the "Brain of God". However don't take these names seriously, as the Moon Cell has nothing to do with Akasha, aside from the fact it works similarly to the Akashic Record.

I wasn't trying to imply Demi-Fiend would insta die to the mere spinning of Ea, but he cannot survive the actual blast (Enuma Elish).

I am not downplaying SMT, as it is one of the most powerful fictions out there, but assuming universes are always infinite in size is wank to both SMT and Nasuverse. If universes are infinite in size, then Gilgamesh busting the reality that contains infinite simulated futures (which is practically a possible timeline/alternate universe with different outcomes) means he just blew up infinite simulated futures that have infinite sized universes, and BB fused with the device that simulated and stored them in the first place. See? I can use the infinite sized universe for my argument too, but that is pure wank, and I am not going to wank Nasuverse like that.

Also I am not using Vsbattles dimensional tierring.

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#32  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak:

Are you really trying to discount the countless theories that the Universe is potentially infinite in size and structure for the sake of this argument? You realize everyone uses Universal tier as a scale because that would imply a level of infinity, right? There's a reason no one calls it "Multi-Galaxy" tier.

My point is there's no reason to assume the Moon Cell > Universe unless you can prove that is the case.

And why can't he survive it? He survived the destruction of the Multiverse just fine. That's a blatant NLF unless you can back it up (and so far you've only stated potentially Universal level feats at the absolute best).

You say it's "one of the most powerful fictions out there" yet go on to imply SMT is merely Universal level by claiming it's "only one infinity" which if that isn't a downplay I don't know what is. And no, I highly highly doubt what he did would constitute busting the equivalent of busting a Multiverse even using the "Universes are infinite" logic because from my understanding this Moon Cell can only simulate a singular timeline once at a time. In fact I'm STILL not sure how durable this Moon Cell even is.

Point is bringing up dimensions is not really constructive or helpful in match-ups like these.

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#33  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: Countless "theories." There you have it. A universe is known as all of space-time and it's contents, which is why it is a tier far above multi galaxy. There are no facts that the universe is truly infinite in size, so most people use the size of the Observable Universe as measurement, as anymore would be speculation unless a fiction specifically mentions the size of their universes.

"Borne of the winds drawn unto the revolution of the three cylinders of Ea, a spatial severence is formed by use of the Sword of Separation. Compressed and intertwined stratifications of wind become a virtual dislocation of space-time, annihilating any who would stand in opposition. Aside from holding an elimination rank "Armor Class" statistic of a sufficient magnitude to resist Purging, or enacting mutual negation via a counterattack that inflicts the same order of damage, the damage rendered cannot be defended against. Performing the miracle of genesis, something that reveals creation - the beginning of everything, the attack opens an abyss capable of crushing all of creation, and the center of the storm is not calm, but rather a hole to hell itself that returns all that enters its realm to the nothingness from which it originated." < < < https://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ea This is the definition of Fate timeline's Ea, CCC is pretty much the same but has the infinite space destruction feats from it's mere spinning/charging up.

SMT is multiversal, but the definition of a multiverse can change from fiction to fiction. I haven't even heard of a fiction that has an infinite multiverse with infinite sized universes (though I assume some fictions do have this definition). The problem isn't that SMT is universe level, the problem is that your definition of a universe and multiverse is WAY too OP, and most fictions don't even use that definition, including SMT. Destroying an infinite multiverse with finite sized universes (the most known definition of a multiverse in fictional debates) still places you high on the fictional power list, and then the fact SMT high-tiers go beyond even that. So yeah, even without your OP speculative definition of a multiverse, SMT is an insanely powerful verse, and one of the strongest out there. Infact they blink 99.9% of the Nasuverse, but simply lose to god tiers.

There cannot be infinite simulated and stored futures if the Moon Cell simulates and stores one at a time, because it will never reach infinite no matter how many it stores. Hakuno already stated she can see every conclusion and outcome the instant she fuses with the core. "Though it is supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon. To obtain the Moon Cell means to be able to search out the future you wish for from among all of those, and put it into effect." < < < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/entry-141-ellipsis/

Confirming that they are infinite. VVVVV

https://s9.postimg.cc/wcmtp68vz/Untitled3.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/weajnwevz/Untitled4.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/6iqt4rxnj/Untitled5.png

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#34  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak: Theories are based in reality and research. Blindly dismissing them as mere hypotheticals is plain ignorance. "No facts", I guess you're woke and those morons at NASA don't know what the hell they're talking about then. Also you contradicted yourself by mentioning it holds space and time which would literally straight up imply some form of infinity, good job.

So in SMT terms, an Almighty attack.

So I'm the one making SMT come off as "Way too OP"? Says the guy who's been trying to suggest Gilgamesh is Megaverse level? The guy who implies mid-high tier characters in CCC can stomp SMT? Anyways there is nothing wrong with suggesting an infinite Multiverse can hold infinite Universes because it's not truly contradictory. Every Universe in the Amala Network goes through infinite conceptions for all eternity, constantly having the slate wiped clean and the very nature of the Universe changing to suit the needs of a reason. These are Universes with their own space-time continuums. And there's infinite of these Universes.

First of all I said the Moon Cell can apparently only ACTIVATE once at a time, not store. Secondly, being able to see and simulate infinite EARTH possibilities is absolutely nothing to anything beyond that very scope so I'm still failing to see how it's really impressive in a match-up like this. PROVE the Moon Cell can work in a capacity above the Earth itself first of all, second prove it's capable of Multiverse level destruction (Multiverse not MultiEarth).

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#35  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: It CAN be infinite but is not confirmed to be. Theories (no matter how sound) are theories when it comes to scientific things in real life. Assuming universes are infinite based off theories is wank. Unless the verse states universes are of infinite size, then they are not of infinite size. If you wank SMT to have infinite sized universes, then I can do the same for Nasuverse.

I use the term megaversal as anything beyond a multiverse, because I don't feel like typing "beyond multiversal" all the time. My bad if I confused you for the term some other people use, such as a megaverse containing infinite multiverses. I just meant Gilgamesh is beyond infinite multiversal.

I did not say mid-high tiers beat SMT (aka solo the verse), I said mid-high tiers such as Nero and a weakened BB can defeat Demi-Fiend. Genesis Gilgamesh is not a mid-high tier, he is second only to Akasha herself.

Universes CAN have infinite space, but it needs to be stated in said fiction. If SMT confirmed each universe is of infinite size, then every SMT character would one shot CCC (since Nasuverse has never stated universes are of infinite size), but this isn't the case. You are assuming they are infinite based off scientific theory alone, in which I can do the same for Nasuverse.

Changing something on Earth alone would create another timeline, as any change in anything creates a new timeline. The Moon Cell can create infinite areas inside it's reality (as I have shown), and could erase them just as easily because it is in full control of it's own reality. Regardless, the futures stored are infinite.

You also failed to mention how Demi-Fiend can survive a full powered Enuma Elish from CCC Genesis Gilgamesh.

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#36  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak

This is unreal, you're trying to deny actual scientific basis for the sake of your argument? I agree you can't use "lol science" to win any argument ever, but in this case you're SERIOUSLY reaching.

Oh I see, well good thing Gilgamesh isn't "beyond Multiversal" then.

A Universe with a space-time continuum is infinite by the very God Damn definition, which the Universes in SMT clearly have so they by default fit the quota of being "infinite" in structure.

Yes and it only applies to Earth and nowhere else. How the hell are you going to apply feats like "changing Earth's history" to beings that have no association with Earth?

He survived the destruction of the Multiverse, that alone means he could easily tank it.

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zgtfreak

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#37  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: It's unreal that you confuse theories for facts. Show me facts that our universe is infinite. We can't even see how big our universe is, we only go off theories to estimate more than we can see. Show me scientific FACTS (not theories) of the universe being infinite. Even if it was infinite, (which there is no proof that it is) that would simply mean each possible future/alternate universe is also infinite in size as well in CCC, which gets us back to square one.

The SMT multiverse is infinite in size due to containing infinite universes, but the universes are finite in space until stated otherwise. If you say otherwise, we can apply that logic to the Nasuverse as well, which I'd prefer not to, since that would be equally wanking SMT and CCC.

The Moon Cell's futures for Earth would make them all separate timelines, because any change in a timeline makes another, no matter how small or on what scale. So the Moon Cell simulates and stores all possible futures/possible timelines; that is an equivalent to a multiverse alone.

Congratulations, Demi-Fiend can tank what the mere spinning/charging up of Gilgamesh's blade can do (which isn't even meant as an attack), now let's see him actually survive the blast/attack itself (Enuma Elish).

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@zgtfreak

Theories are 100% rooted in facts, the only distinction between facts is they are not provable by humans. Saying the Big Bang is a theory is correct. Saying Magical Giant Unicorns float across space is not even if you propose it as one. And you want proof? Here:

https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

Go ahead and dismiss it as "durr theory crap" I could care less at this point, I feel this point of discussion is irrelevant now.

Nice, the Moon Cell can manipulate timelines ON EARTH one at a time. Still not seeing where Multiversal, or hell even Universal comes in or how the hell this is even REMOTELY applicable to a character well beyond Earth and Earthly concepts. Prove it has applicable effects on Non-Earthly beings.

Oh I didn't know a Non-Multiversal attack can kill Demi-Fiend.

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I don’t know much about Fate, but people always misinterpret Demi Fiend’s feats. Based on what’s been said, I’d give it to the Fate team I guess.

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#41  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: These are not facts, as we know little of the cosmos. Something we learn in the future could completely crush all of our current theories on everything. Despite these sound arguments, theories are still theories; they even say "theories" on this page.

The Moon Cell's multiverse feats are due to the fact it has a reality that has INFINITE sized realms in it. One of which is confirmed, one of which I need to fetch the link for soon (so you can dismiss), and another one's name implies that space is infinite as well (although debatable).

I didn't know Demi-Fiend can survive an attack that not only destroys space-time, but killed an omnipresent beyond multiversal being and returns everything to nothingness (ignoring durability).

This argument is going in circles at this point.

@crimson_lord Demi-Fiend curbstomps all of Fate/Nasuverse with zero effort aside from CCC god tiers, Arcueid with her Primordial One ability active, and Akasha (god).

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@zgtfreak:

Which is why I knew it was pointless to bring it up because I knew you would rather be dismissive rather than constructive.

I do not recall anything about "infinite sized realms", merely that it can hold infinite information about the Earth and manipulate it as it sees fit.

Yes Demi-Fiend can 100% survive destruction of space-time since he's shown to be able to do so, and the being Gilgamesh killed was neither omnipresent (at least not truly) nor is it "beyond Multiversal"

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#43  Edited By zgtfreak

@grabz: If we were some god tier advanced race that fully understood space, then fine, but we aren't. The main problem is the difference in our ideas on how we should use cosmology in fiction. If Demi-Fiend could solo Nasuverse, I could care less, but in my eyes he can't.

BB is not fully omnipresent to the extent of an omnipotent , but she does exist in the past, present, and future, along with being the Moon Cell itself (can be anywhere in it's reality except the school building protected by Sakura). BB is omnipresent on at least a 4D level.

It stores (keyword "stores") infinite possible futures, along with the possibly infinite sized final Chimeric Sea.

Keywords "returns everything to nothingness." "The damage rendered cannot be defended against. Performing the miracle of genesis, something that reveals creation - the beginning of everything, the attack opens an abyss capable of crushing all of creation, and the center of the storm is not calm, but rather a hole to hell itself that returns all that enters its realm to the nothingness from which it originated"

Should we just agree to disagree? This is going in circles.

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#44  Edited By Grabz

@zgtfreak: Let's agree to disagree then.

Okay fine let's assume that is the case and he is immune to time fuckery. That still doesn't really give him an advantage over Demi-Fiend.

I think I'm starting to understand, so it has infinite timelines within that it can simulate. But how does this effect the outside? And even then I still don't understand this being above Universe level, as it simulates a timeline one at a time.

Shit that Demi-Fiend has more or less tanked.

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@grabz said:

@crimson_lord: What misinterpretation?

Mainly this

He survived the destruction of the Multiverse, that alone means he could easily tank it.

That's not remotely close to what happened in that scene. He survived the destruction of the Vortex World -- The Vortex World is the size of a spherical Tokyo based landmass. It's not a large area. The Kagatsuchi he destroyed was only one of many Kagatsuchis that exist. His universe lost the way to revive as a result of that action, but nothing is ever stated to have occurred to any other universe. The Kagatsuchi in his world only held the energy necessary to restore that world and was only brought into existence when the conception started. No more, no less. Not to mention, you'd have no speed feats for a game character like him really.

A guy who survived the total destruction of said Multiverse, and went on to bigger and better things like waging war on the creator of the Megaverse itself

Do tell me the outcome of that war because there is no conclusion ever stated in the version of the game I played. Trying to imply he's multiversal is extreme highballing.

@zgtfreak

@crimson_lord Demi-Fiend curbstomps all of Fate/Nasuverse with zero effort aside from CCC god tiers, Arcueid with her Primordial One ability active, and Akasha (god).

Don't really know enough about Fate/Nasuverse tbh. Not too interested really.

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@grabz: I just meant Gilgamesh is fast enough to fight omnipresent beings. Granted, BB can paradox Demi-Fiend (though he might have paradox resistance that I do not know of).

It stores infinite possible futures/timelines at once, however it can pick a single outcome out of all of those to put into effect in the real world. Basically they all exist at once in the Moon Cell, but it can pick one out of those infinite futures to put into effect in the real world; however it was never stated that it could only put one into effect/one is it's limit. The fact it stores infinite possible futures/timelines in it's own domain/reality is a multiversal feat, and the Moon Cell can erase all of those simulated futures as it has full control over it's reality.

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@grabz said:

@crimson_lord: What misinterpretation?

Mainly this

He survived the destruction of the Multiverse, that alone means he could easily tank it.

That's not remotely close to what happened in that scene. He survived the destruction of the Vortex World -- The Vortex World is the size of a spherical Tokyo based landmass. It's not a large area. The Kagatsuchi he destroyed was only one of many Kagatsuchis that exist. His universe lost the way to revive as a result of that action, but nothing is ever stated to have occurred to any other universe. The Kagatsuchi in his world only held the energy necessary to restore that world and was only brought into existence when the conception started. No more, no less. Not to mention, you'd have no speed feats for a game character like him really.

A guy who survived the total destruction of said Multiverse, and went on to bigger and better things like waging war on the creator of the Megaverse itself

Do tell me the outcome of that war because there is no conclusion ever stated in the version of the game I played. Trying to imply he's multiversal is extreme highballing.

You talk about misinterpretation and then proceed to do it tenfold. Oh where to begin...

Are you just ignoring the existence of the Amala Network? The infinite sized Multiverse of SMT III? This?

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/1/1a/7-0.png/revision/latest?cb=20151130135749

The Kagatsuchi he destroyed was only one of many, yes, but killing it caused a chain reaction where the ENTIRE Amala Network completely collapsed (at least in the True Demon ending). Nothing is stated in any other Universe? Of course it isn't, the Amala Network exists completely separately from everything else. Lucifer pretty much straight up implies there's bigger fish to fry so him and Demi-Fiend wage war on heaven itself (AKA YHVH). As for speed feats, it's meaningless when you scale him to some of the demons he can summon.

As for the whole waging war on heaven thing, that's obviously fluff I pointed out, and I didn't mean to imply it was an actual Megaverse level feat (but still impressive nonetheless).

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Grabz

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@zgtfreak: Well until you can prove it can handle more than one universe at a time then there's no reason to put it above Universal. Storing infinite Universes doesn't mean it's capable of Multiversal level powers, just that it can swap in Universes at will.

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@grabz:

You talk about misinterpretation and then proceed to do it tenfold. Oh where to begin...

Showing a relevant multiversal feat would be a start.

re you just ignoring the existence of the Amala Network

Are you going to ignore that this battle only occurred in the Vortex World? One universe in the process of being reborn.

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The Kagatsuchi he destroyed was only one of many, yes, but killing it caused a chain reaction where the ENTIRE Amala Network completely collapsed (at least in the True Demon ending).

That's head canon right there. After the Vortex World is destroyed, Lucifer mentions the world (In this context universe) won't revive again. This is also backed up by the existence of other vortex worlds that fail to reincarnate, such as the world Yuko's god comes from.

Lucifer pretty much straight up implies there's bigger fish to fry so him and Demi-Fiend wage war on heaven itself (AKA YHVH

And?

As for speed feats, it's meaningless when you scale him to some of the demons he can summon.

Who also lack speed feats...

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Grabz

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#50  Edited By Grabz

@crimson_lord:

Killing YHVH's avatar that oversees an entire Multiverse and caused its total collapse upon destruction isn't? Yeah okay.

Yes and? Kagutsuchi and his avatars embody that World and oversees that Universe's creation. What point are you trying to make?

Head-Canon? Demi-Fiend killed the omnipresent overseer of the Multiverse for good. He wonders through a black void of absolute nothingness, Lucifer tells him straight up he destroyed the Sangai (past, present, AND future). The Amala Network is gone, no more, completely nonexistent. Prove otherwise. And those "infinite avatars"? They are all Kagutsuchi, when one dies they all die. Stop trying to imply they exist individually of each other.

I'm trying to say that the Amala Network is gone so they fucked off and went to go wage war on Heaven.

Even mid-level demons are massively FTL, higher tier ones straight up doesn't have speed as a concept apply to them.