Deathstroke and Lady Shiva Vs. Fat Cobra and Kingpin

Fat Cobra solo

Depends on the fights. Slade can fight Fat Cobra rather well. Shiva stomps the shit out of Kingpin with relative ease. But, if Fat Cobra beats slade, Shiva should be easy enough for him. Is he immune to poisons? I can see shiva going with that route.

Shiva's stomping a guy who fought Spidey for 12 hours straight?

@professorrespect: Spidey was not fighting his hardest. We later saw what a committed Peter does to Fisk, it wasn't a fight at all.

Anyway, Shiva is a worse matchup for Kingpin than Daredevil. Lethal weapons and poisons, better than DD at predicting moves, and no morals to stay her hand.

12 hours with Spidey regardless of him "not fighting his hardest" (despite no intent at the time showing as such as he was literally fighting for his life) couldn't be replicated by no one else here through. Kingpin pre-Daredevil nerf was a actual Spidey-tier threat.

@professorrespect: did i argue speed? Or did i argue that he wouldnt be able to tag Shiva? There's a huge difference.

The reason he couldnt tag Shiva is her body reading.

@professorrespect: Thanks to it, Shiva was capable of dancing around Cassie, who legitimately moves faster than bullets. (And not just to dodge, she outoaced a bullet at least once).

Shiva is by no means regular human in speed

@professorrespect: cain only got to Shiva's level thanks to the same body reading ability. Speed wise Cain can move so fast that Tim Drake can't see her while she dispatches a bunch of thugs.

Kingpin doesn't compare in speed to Cassie. He isn't touching Shiva.

@professorrespect: you are being dumb on purpose. She is faster than Kingpin, 100% she can predict his movements with ease, and she can poison him. He dies. He doesnt stand a chance

Impressive insults, but unfortunately you haven't actually addressed the fact that Classic Kingpin was a peer to Spidey, not a inferior. Anyone who can fight someone for 12 hours and still be raring to go is one, no ifs or buts around that.

Also: when has Shiva used poison in these sort of settings, exactly? If it was so easy to do so then I'd argue she'd never lose a fight, yet the likes of fake Prometheus and Richard Dragon don't seem to have any issues with this poison gimmick.

Also, you should stop bringing up spidey. He is not on Peter's level.

https://m.imgur.com/t/spiderman/nBoyeaW

Sadly this does not apply to Classic Kingpin as we discussed above: this is after he's been nerfed to a sub-Daredevil villain.

@professorrespect:

What nerfed Kingpin exactly, please, enlighten me

What made him a guy who could fight Spidey on equal footing alongside Vulture, Goblin and the main crew (who, need I remind you, Vulture already made Daredevil a joke when they fought) into a guy that can't even fight Daredevil? For one, the fact he ceased being a Spidey villain and migrated over to the Daredevil series meant that he couldn't be the same character power wise. How can Daredevil handle a guy who beat up Spidey for 12 hours straight when he can't even beat B-tier villains around the same scale?

Also, "playing dumb" isnt an insult. You are playing dumb here

Seems a bit like a technicality but I'll let that side.

For poison, she poisoned Batman with a shuriken

......and? Shiva is not the kind of individual to use such underhanded tactics given she still has a immense honour system and I can find VERY few instances where she uses such a thing in the first place.

......and? Shiva is not the kind of individual to use such underhanded tactics given she still has a immense honour system and I can find VERY few instances where she uses such a thing in the first place.

@professorrespect:

So... Nothing nerfed him. There is no retcon or an in-universe explanation

I think you already know this given the Classic and Modern usages as terms have been used for decades at this point, Fisk included.

No, and, while we're at it, in those comics, it was Spider-Man who was jobbing

This is very poor reasoning to assume that almost all of Classic Kingpin's fights (because Classic Kingpin WAS a mainline Spidey villain, after all) was him just jobbing. There's zero concrete reasoning to suggest as such, especially given how equal the pair were. Spidey wasn't being written any differently than any other of his fights (given he was being written by his very creator) unless you want to say those were jobbing as well. Might as well throw 90% of superhero fights in if that's the case.

not Fisk who suddenly got to Peter's level

Fisk didn't "suddenly" get to Peter's level, his Classic showings had him as a peer. A peer is not as strong, but can still contend.

True, but Fisk isn't a martial artist, he is clearly a super-powered individual with strength and durability that far surpass that of humans

Still, I don't see anything suggesting that Shiva uses dirty tactics here, especially when she's not done so in the past even to her detriment of herself. Deathstroke isn't a martial artist first and foremost either but she's not pulling those kind of antics out for him.

@professorrespect:

I think you already know this given the Classic and Modern usages as terms have been used for decades at this point, Fisk included.

Yes, but, to be fair, they didn't really pay attention to proper power scaling in the "classic" era. Wild things would happen then

They don't really pay attention now lol. That said, it was very clear that they seen Fisk as a peer to Spidey in combat. The idea that they didn't pay attention isn't quite true for Marvel typically, through DC seemed to have more extremes when it came to low and high showings.

At that time, Spiderman was impressed by Fisk moving the chairs in the apartment they were fighting in. Spiderman would later lift a building, showing that he is hundreds of times stronger

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The building feat wouldn't happen for a few extra decades.

This is very poor reasoning to assume that almost all of Classic Kingpin's fights (because Classic Kingpin WAS a mainline Spidey villain, after all) was him just jobbing.

Why is it poor reasoning? It was just Spider-Man jobbing

I already have described why above from the section you didn't quote.

If the two never met, and you just saw their stats and abilities in a CaV on separate characters, let's name them Paddy and Willy, you wouldn't think the two are on the same level

Because Fisk has spent the majority of his history as a Daredevil villain and subsequently nerfed. Again, we've gone through this before above.

I don't think Shiva ever battled Slade. But, she did use poison on Batman. She could use it on Fisk

She used it once on Batman on what was probably a instance with clear context. Shiva is not the type of fighter to cheat with poison and other stuff, with her even refusing to kill opponents that were injured prior to fighting her out of raw pride. There's zero chance she would mindlessly cheat here.

@professorrespect: The one thing I would say about your arguments that I find fault in is the Prometheus imposter tagging Shiva as an anti-feat. That was obviously a low showing for her, especially considering it came from Simone, who is honestly a terrible Lady Shiva writer given how much Shiva jobs under her pen.

Of course, that doesn't mean Kingpin can't hit her. I just think it isn't quite fair to invoke an obvious low showing. Also, that was New Earth Shiva and the one being used here is the Prime Earth version.

I just think it depends on where you think Shiva is personally.

N52/Rebirth Shiva is a lot weaker feat-wise and she lacks a lot of the hype that Post Crisis provides if that's the version being used.