Death Guard and World Eaters: Mortarion and Angron vs Ultramarines and Emperor's Children: Fulgrim and Guilliman WHO WINS?!?!?!

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MasterofMatches

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Poll Death Guard and World Eaters: Mortarion and Angron vs Ultramarines and Emperor's Children: Fulgrim and Guilliman WHO WINS?!?!?! (5 votes)

Death Guard and World Eaters 40%
Death Guard and World Eaters 20%
Ultramarines and Emperor's Children 20%
Ultramarines and Emperor's Children 0%
Stalemate/Could go Either way 20%

Mortarion and Angron

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Fulgrim and Roboute Guilliman

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Death Guard and World Eaters vs Ultramarines and Emperor's Children ( Loyalist for everyone but the Night Lords are given their Chaos look )

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Rules

  • All lore allowed
  • Standard gear; Lion gets emperor's shield
  • No prep
  • Standard knowledge of each other
  • Good teamwork from both sides
  • No jobbing
  • No BFR
  • No outside interference
  • No morals/both sides are heavily determined and no quarter is given
  • In character
  • Win by K.O or Death ( first round ) Win by the complete destruction of their foes' legion

Environment - Both sides start 500ft apart for Round 1. Both sides start a the opposite ends of the image down below

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MasterofMatches

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Six-Deuce

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Lion?

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MasterofMatches

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@six-deuce: My bad, I'm sick right now, so my heads not the clearest! However, whom wins? :)

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Six-Deuce

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@masterofmatches: get well bud. This is a good battle, I mean I believe in their current versions the Ultramarines are quite a bit less numerous than the traitor legions unless you include successor chapters and even then I’m not 100%. I’d probably go World eaters and death guard….both are perfectly in their element dropped into a fight without a plan to win….EC and UM are as well but to a lesser degree….and I’m not seeing any advantages to offset this.

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JoshTaku

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Don't the ultramarines now have primaris space marines within their chapter now?

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MasterofMatches

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@joshtaku said:

Don't the ultramarines now have primaris space marines within their chapter now?

Not many, and its not a chapter its the entire Ultramarine Legion, hence legions in the rules :)

@masterofmatches: get well bud. This is a good battle, I mean I believe in their current versions the Ultramarines are quite a bit less numerous than the traitor legions unless you include successor chapters and even then I’m not 100%. I’d probably go World eaters and death guard….both are perfectly in their element dropped into a fight without a plan to win….EC and UM are as well but to a lesser degree….and I’m not seeing any advantages to offset this.

Thanks! :)

Everyone is legion strength right before the HH just like all the other Ops i've made :)

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anderioan

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Cool to see more 40k stuff.

I'm giving this to Fulg & Bobby.

There are only 3 Primarchs that could match Roboute's tactical acumen and 3 that could best Fulgrim in a duel, and neither Angron nor Morty are among them in either case. Add to that the fact that 30k emperor's children were arguably the highest quality individual Marines and you get, imo, a one-sided stomp.

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cergic

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I'll probably side with G-man and Fulgrim. Both are brighter than Morty and Angron by far. We know that G-man can hold off Angron for quite some time, probably not defeat him though but that's enough to argue that he can hold his own against either one of the two. Morty's not particularly impressive, and he only survived vs Khan due to his ridiculous damage soak and stinky aura combined with plot, so he's not going to pull anything off as a commander or as a fighter. Leaving Fulgrim to tip the scales, assuming he's not going to be a prideful dickwad and instead actually go for killing blows.

Death Guard's going to do one thing: stand their ground. World eaters are going to do one thing: frenzy charge.

None of those two "tactics" even combined will lend them much benefit vs two legions such as Ultras and Emperor's children. Especially not since the partial weak side of the Ultras is compensated for by the Emperor's children whom were close quarter oriented as well.

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MordhauExtreme1

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I have to disagree with the two up above, but before I get into that,

Legion per Legion EC is the best here followed by UM but they are good overall. This environment heavily favors WE and DG, so UM, WE, and DG are all about in the same boat with DG possibly taking the lead since they are good at sieges as well.

Primarch vs Primarch. Fulgrim is the best overall he doesn't job either because after re-reading Fulgrim hes never jobbed, the Daemon has taken over by the end of the book and its made clear, so Fulgrim is most likely gonna win against whomever he faces, but the problem is it wont be a 1 vs 1 fight, it will be a 2 vs 1 fight sooner or later and I dont think he can take Mortarion nor Angron at the same time. Rawbutt Gorilla man loses to either imo. He loses to Angron faster simply due to Angron's nature, but Mortarion is quite skilled and could certainly end the fight fast as well if he lands his deathblow and doesn't toy with bobby g

@cergic

I'll probably side with G-man and Fulgrim. Both are brighter than Morty and Angron by far.

Mortarion is known by Fulgrim to be a decent siege type of guy. Fulgrim is better, but thats because 30k Fulgrim was quite intelligent, even better than rowboat imo. Angron though yes, everyone is smarter than Angron even Manus is smarter, but the thing about both Mortarion and Angron is that they kind of work hand in hand. Angron and Mortarion both have their benefits in CQC ( which this will certainly be a CQC ) and the durability to get there ( Death Guard ), so brains don't necessary really matter here all that much.

We know that G-man can hold off Angron for quite some time, probably not defeat him though but that's enough to argue that he can hold his own against either one of the two.

G-man held off an exhausted Angron ( heavily wounded to ) with full gear, while Angron only had a chainsaw sword not his axes last I checked.

Angron saw it, and threw himself at his brother, his howl of wrath defying mortal origins, impossibly ripe in its anguish. Though he couldn’t know it, the sound of his cry blended perfectly with the great song. Lorgar saw it, too. The moment Guilliman’s boot broke the skull, he felt the warp boil behind the veil. The Bearer of the Word started chanting in a language never before spoken by any living being, his words in faultless harmony with Angron’s cry of torment.....

Even there, Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant. Angron and Roboute still fought, with the Lord of the Ultramarines giving ground each time Angron landed a blow. For all Lhorke’s disgust, he had to grant a shade of respect to his gene-sire. Guilliman had no hope against Angron. The former Legion Master wasn’t sure anyone would have had....

Angron plunged his chainsword up under Lord Guilliman’s breastplate – a shallow stab, but a telling one. The Ultramarine crushed the impaling sword in one fist and staggered back, truly bleeding now.....

Angron himself still fought Guilliman, standing above the kneeling Ultramarine. Had he even noticed the storm of blood streaming from the sky in a red torrent? Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets. Now. It has to be now. Lorgar focused his concentration on the triumphant form of his mutilated brother, calling for the Neverborn to answer in kind. He locked Angron’s muscles, setting fire to the synapses in his brain. He stole the chance at a killing blow, fuelling the World Eater’s rage even higher.

-Warhammer 40k: Betrayer

Both were in bad shape but everyone knew Angron was gonna win regardless. As for Fulgrim vs Mortarion, my money is on Mortarion lasting longer since hes known to be quite durable.

Morty's not particularly impressive, and he only survived vs Khan due to his ridiculous damage soak and stinky aura combined with plot, so he's not going to pull anything off as a commander or as a fighter.

Morty's first fight had no stinky aura at all and he was heavily wounded since his healing factor didn't kick in as well. He wasn't even blessed because when he gets his blessing, its after he leaves the fight and heads back to Terra where he gets trapped in the warp storm. The second fight against Khan, he was gonna win hence why Khan was messing with his mind since that's Mortarion's biggest weakness ( mind games ) Fulgrim could certainly impose the same, but unlike Khan, Fulgrim has never bothered to study Mortarion or any of the others all that much which Khan makes clear to him. Mortarion and Khan are very similar in the sense they both study their foes alike which is why Khan was concerned when fighting Mortarion because he says much like to his own legion, Mortarion kept to himself and never bragged about what he could do. The only line we get that suggests Mortarion gives any hit about their fighting styles is that Mortarion thinks him and Khan would have a good fight in which they did, both times. One was a draw ( flat out draw either was about to die ) the other again in turn ended in a double K.O if the GEoM didn't step in. The only reason why people say Khan won round 2, is because Mortarion was a DP implying he had more power, which is fine, but the Author is also an idiot as well for obvious reasons.

Leaving Fulgrim to tip the scales, assuming he's not going to be a prideful dickwad and instead actually go for killing blows.

I'd say Fulgrim could best either one 1 vs 1, but I think Angron can defeat Girlyman far faster than Fulgrim can defeat Mortarion and unlike Mortarion vs Fulgrim. Angron won't be in as bad as shape and he'd have both his axes this time and lorgar won't rob angron of his kill

Death Guard's going to do one thing: stand their ground. World eaters are going to do one thing: frenzy charge.

DG is moving forward at a steady pace, WE is charge, both should work fairly well though since WE will enter in CQC combat first allowing the DG to target any flanking positions. Granted I do believe EC and Ultras would win and this is mostly because of the EC not the UMs

@anderioan

There are only 3 Primarchs that could match Roboute's tactical acumen and 3 that could best Fulgrim in a duel, and neither Angron nor Morty are among them in either case.

Add to that the fact that 30k emperor's children were arguably the highest quality individual Marines and you get, imo, a one-sided stomp.

Environment suggests it wont be a stomp, but I do agree 30k EC are prolly the best legion there is. They certainly out do the Luna Wolves who are known to be overall generally great soldiers, but the EC have been around a lot longer. The only people I see possibly better than the EC is maybe... the dark angels or blood angels, but regardless it doesn't matter. EC are very good, but the environment does allow for WE and DG to close in fairly well and DG do fairly well in sieges as well

There are only 3 Primarchs that could match Roboute's tactical acumen

They don't necessary need to match it since there's no prep involved

and 3 that could best Fulgrim in a duel, and neither Angron nor Morty are among them in either case

Which 3? Because if one of those 3 is Khan, then Morty is winning, Morty already stalemated Khan twice ( second time "lost" but Khan was basically dead as well" First time was a true stalemate )

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cergic

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I have to disagree with the two up above, but before I get into that,

Legion per Legion EC is the best here followed by UM but they are good overall. This environment heavily favors WE and DG, so UM, WE, and DG are all about in the same boat with DG possibly taking the lead since they are good at sieges as well.

Primarch vs Primarch. Fulgrim is the best overall he doesn't job either because after re-reading Fulgrim hes never jobbed, the Daemon has taken over by the end of the book and its made clear, so Fulgrim is most likely gonna win against whomever he faces, but the problem is it wont be a 1 vs 1 fight, it will be a 2 vs 1 fight sooner or later and I dont think he can take Mortarion nor Angron at the same time. Rawbutt Gorilla man loses to either imo. He loses to Angron faster simply due to Angron's nature, but Mortarion is quite skilled and could certainly end the fight fast as well if he lands his deathblow and doesn't toy with bobby g

@cergic

I'll probably side with G-man and Fulgrim. Both are brighter than Morty and Angron by far.

Mortarion is known by Fulgrim to be a decent siege type of guy. Fulgrim is better, but thats because 30k Fulgrim was quite intelligent, even better than rowboat imo. Angron though yes, everyone is smarter than Angron even Manus is smarter, but the thing about both Mortarion and Angron is that they kind of work hand in hand. Angron and Mortarion both have their benefits in CQC ( which this will certainly be a CQC ) and the durability to get there ( Death Guard ), so brains don't necessary really matter here all that much.

We know that G-man can hold off Angron for quite some time, probably not defeat him though but that's enough to argue that he can hold his own against either one of the two.

G-man held off an exhausted Angron ( heavily wounded to ) with full gear, while Angron only had a chainsaw sword not his axes last I checked.

Angron saw it, and threw himself at his brother, his howl of wrath defying mortal origins, impossibly ripe in its anguish. Though he couldn’t know it, the sound of his cry blended perfectly with the great song. Lorgar saw it, too. The moment Guilliman’s boot broke the skull, he felt the warp boil behind the veil. The Bearer of the Word started chanting in a language never before spoken by any living being, his words in faultless harmony with Angron’s cry of torment.....

Even there, Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant. Angron and Roboute still fought, with the Lord of the Ultramarines giving ground each time Angron landed a blow. For all Lhorke’s disgust, he had to grant a shade of respect to his gene-sire. Guilliman had no hope against Angron. The former Legion Master wasn’t sure anyone would have had....

Angron plunged his chainsword up under Lord Guilliman’s breastplate – a shallow stab, but a telling one. The Ultramarine crushed the impaling sword in one fist and staggered back, truly bleeding now.....

Angron himself still fought Guilliman, standing above the kneeling Ultramarine. Had he even noticed the storm of blood streaming from the sky in a red torrent? Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets. Now. It has to be now. Lorgar focused his concentration on the triumphant form of his mutilated brother, calling for the Neverborn to answer in kind. He locked Angron’s muscles, setting fire to the synapses in his brain. He stole the chance at a killing blow, fuelling the World Eater’s rage even higher.

-Warhammer 40k: Betrayer

Both were in bad shape but everyone knew Angron was gonna win regardless. As for Fulgrim vs Mortarion, my money is on Mortarion lasting longer since hes known to be quite durable.

Morty's not particularly impressive, and he only survived vs Khan due to his ridiculous damage soak and stinky aura combined with plot, so he's not going to pull anything off as a commander or as a fighter.

Morty's first fight had no stinky aura at all and he was heavily wounded since his healing factor didn't kick in as well. He wasn't even blessed because when he gets his blessing, its after he leaves the fight and heads back to Terra where he gets trapped in the warp storm. The second fight against Khan, he was gonna win hence why Khan was messing with his mind since that's Mortarion's biggest weakness ( mind games ) Fulgrim could certainly impose the same, but unlike Khan, Fulgrim has never bothered to study Mortarion or any of the others all that much which Khan makes clear to him. Mortarion and Khan are very similar in the sense they both study their foes alike which is why Khan was concerned when fighting Mortarion because he says much like to his own legion, Mortarion kept to himself and never bragged about what he could do. The only line we get that suggests Mortarion gives any hit about their fighting styles is that Mortarion thinks him and Khan would have a good fight in which they did, both times. One was a draw ( flat out draw either was about to die ) the other again in turn ended in a double K.O if the GEoM didn't step in. The only reason why people say Khan won round 2, is because Mortarion was a DP implying he had more power, which is fine, but the Author is also an idiot as well for obvious reasons.

Leaving Fulgrim to tip the scales, assuming he's not going to be a prideful dickwad and instead actually go for killing blows.

I'd say Fulgrim could best either one 1 vs 1, but I think Angron can defeat Girlyman far faster than Fulgrim can defeat Mortarion and unlike Mortarion vs Fulgrim. Angron won't be in as bad as shape and he'd have both his axes this time and lorgar won't rob angron of his kill

Death Guard's going to do one thing: stand their ground. World eaters are going to do one thing: frenzy charge.

DG is moving forward at a steady pace, WE is charge, both should work fairly well though since WE will enter in CQC combat first allowing the DG to target any flanking positions. Granted I do believe EC and Ultras would win and this is mostly because of the EC not the UMs

@anderioan

There are only 3 Primarchs that could match Roboute's tactical acumen and 3 that could best Fulgrim in a duel, and neither Angron nor Morty are among them in either case.

Add to that the fact that 30k emperor's children were arguably the highest quality individual Marines and you get, imo, a one-sided stomp.

Environment suggests it wont be a stomp, but I do agree 30k EC are prolly the best legion there is. They certainly out do the Luna Wolves who are known to be overall generally great soldiers, but the EC have been around a lot longer. The only people I see possibly better than the EC is maybe... the dark angels or blood angels, but regardless it doesn't matter. EC are very good, but the environment does allow for WE and DG to close in fairly well and DG do fairly well in sieges as well

There are only 3 Primarchs that could match Roboute's tactical acumen

They don't necessary need to match it since there's no prep involved

and 3 that could best Fulgrim in a duel, and neither Angron nor Morty are among them in either case

Which 3? Because if one of those 3 is Khan, then Morty is winning, Morty already stalemated Khan twice ( second time "lost" but Khan was basically dead as well" First time was a true stalemate )

Mortarion is known by Fulgrim to be a decent siege type of guy. Fulgrim is better, but thats because 30k Fulgrim was quite intelligent, even better than rowboat imo. Angron though yes, everyone is smarter than Angron even Manus is smarter, but the thing about both Mortarion and Angron is that they kind of work hand in hand. Angron and Mortarion both have their benefits in CQC ( which this will certainly be a CQC ) and the durability to get there ( Death Guard ), so brains don't necessary really matter here all that much.

Hell. No.

Against demigods and opponents on this level, brains matter a great deal i'd say, so we have fundamentally different ideas on how this would pan out for sure. And there is no way Fulgrim's better than Bobby. His character journey highlights his own shortcomings way too strongly to suggest that.

G-man held off an exhausted Angron ( heavily wounded to ) with full gear, while Angron only had a chainsaw sword not his axes last I checked.

And G-man had been busting his ass back at home and out in outer space, pulled together the rag-tag bunch of voidcrafts and commanded the hectic space battle before making landfall, fighting his now amped brother andhad his face cracked in two.

Both were in bad shape but everyone knew Angron was gonna win regardless. As for Fulgrim vs Mortarion, my money is on Mortarion lasting longer since hes known to be quite durable.

Yes. But we all know that G-man got into that entire engagement with unfavourable odds to begin with. It's the same as when Perty faced Demon Angron - he'd perform way less had he not been prepped and had insight beforehand. Bobby got this fight more or less in his lap, so i'd say it's even-steven when it comes to poor factors and much more reasonable to believe him to be capable of standing his ground for longer in this scenario.

Morty is durable because he's not getting a sword in his face. Fulgrim got better regeneration than Khan, so he'll perform better against an opponent like Mortarion that's wearing his opponents down.

And through it all, he kepttalking. He kept up the torrent of petty jibes and slights. Even when Mortarion rained blows at his dented helm, smacked him deep into the broken-up rockcrete, the barbs kept on coming, sometimes acid, sometimes brutal, sometimes merely juvenile.

Morty's first fight had no stinky aura at all and he was heavily wounded since his healing factor didn't kick in as well. He wasn't even blessed because when he gets his blessing, its after he leaves the fight and heads back to Terra where he gets trapped in the warp storm. The second fight against Khan, he was gonna win hence why Khan was messing with his mind since that's Mortarion's biggest weakness ( mind games ) Fulgrim could certainly impose the same, but unlike Khan, Fulgrim has never bothered to study Mortarion or any of the others all that much which Khan makes clear to him. Mortarion and Khan are very similar in the sense they both study their foes alike which is why Khan was concerned when fighting Mortarion because he says much like to his own legion, Mortarion kept to himself and never bragged about what he could do. The only line we get that suggests Mortarion gives any hit about their fighting styles is that Mortarion thinks him and Khan would have a good fight in which they did, both times. One was a draw ( flat out draw either was about to die ) the other again in turn ended in a double K.O if the GEoM didn't step in. The only reason why people say Khan won round 2, is because Mortarion was a DP implying he had more power, which is fine, but the Author is also an idiot as well for obvious reasons.

True, i just now recall that Khan's refering to Mortys absurd durability as strenght-sapping etc. and giving him cred for not, you know, dying. That's what drained him in the first fight.

In their second fight it kind of proves how Morty is fixed in his ways and, as i previous said, quite the dull. I mean, the guy hating the warp and chaos fiddlery the most falls to chaos. Moron be moroning.

I'd say Fulgrim could best either one 1 vs 1, but I think Angron can defeat Girlyman far faster than Fulgrim can defeat Mortarion and unlike Mortarion vs Fulgrim. Angron won't be in as bad as shape and he'd have both his axes this time and lorgar won't rob angron of his kill

I don't think G-man's going to go down faster than what Fulgrim can dish out to Mortarion, so we're at an impasse there. Because Mortarion is just painfully slow by all accounts, and Fulgrim isn't. So we have a guy with a very good weapon and blistering speed vs a slow tank without a face mask. I don't see the odds in Mortys favour. I think your argument falls flat as well regarding how Angron's got better odds now since G-man also got better odds by not having his face cracked in half or having resisted a warp push, being fresh and not having to face a literal 1v2 situation. Bobby's too good to not know his role in this fight.

DG is moving forward at a steady pace, WE is charge, both should work fairly well though since WE will enter in CQC combat first allowing the DG to target any flanking positions. Granted I do believe EC and Ultras would win and this is mostly because of the EC not the UMs

DG won't move an inch unless they have to, and they're much less agile than their opponents regarding tactics. There isn't a scenario in the world in which you do Ultramarines and Emperors children justice where you believe them to ever be flanked. Ever. That's the most basic shit in combat history, and if any legion's read those books, it's the Ultramarines and Emperors children. Arguably Dark Angels. So the Ultras and Emperors children work in such absurdly good tandem here. It's practically a 2 legions vs 1 legion here in terms of agile tactics and that alone dictates the slim-to-none odds of the DGs ever flanking anything here.

I will give you some acknowledgement regarding how Fulgrim's too boasting to give a crap about studying Morty though. Fair. But Bobby G compensates yet again, and Fulgrims lack of knowledge more than is made up by Bobbys absurd knowledge instead. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Bobby pulls the old Russ manouver on Angron in round 2 and have him blasted to shreds by being surrounded.

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MordhauExtreme1

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@cergic:

Hell. No.

Against demigods and opponents on this level, brains matter a great deal i'd say, so we have fundamentally different ideas on how this would pan out for sure. And there is no way Fulgrim's better than Bobby. His character journey highlights his own shortcomings way too strongly to suggest that.

In a random encounter? They can set up a lot, but there's only so much they can do when an legion is gonna instantly start charging. They can certainly set up kill zones, but without any prep its gonna be hard to start that right away when ur foe is not that far, in an environment that favors them? I mean i guess ure right, brains are always needed, but the Death Guard again have some decent brains when it comes to sieges once more and lets not forget... Death Guard were capable of taking the IWs head on and winning... Granted I understand Plagues and shit came into play, but IWs are also FAR better than anyone here especially in sieges, and that battle? Was a siege....

As for Fulgrim being better than Bobby, yes he is at least in 30k. We know the EC is top 3 best legions and have generally perfected the art of war very closely. If you were to take Fulgrim and his legion vs Bobby and his legion, I'd say Fulgrim wins almost every time because on a fundamental level of the Legion and due to Fulgrim they'd be just fine. They'd have to work for it cause bobby isn't obviously an idiot, but the huge change between 30k and 40k EC is no joke.

As for his character's journey, sure his biggest weakness is pride. The biggest thing his character went through though was accepting the sword, that slowly corrupted him and boosting his pride. However, I highly suggest re-reading the novel Fulgrim again because if I hadn't re-read it again..... I would 100% certainly agree with you, but everything from the way he acts, to the way he commands, etc was affected by the sword greatly. Even his decision making skills was affected by the sword. Example,

The daemon talks to Horus at the end, it states Fulgrim would of ran to the Emperor the second Horus brought up going against the Emperor and trying to over throw him. Meaning Fulgrim had changed that much from the start of the book to the end of the book. ( also means Fulgrim would of been a loyalist as well and Horus would of prolly been stopped then and there )

Furthermore Fulgrim after his second fight with Manus after he kills his brother, the Sword and Him have a talk and it points out how again it affected Fulgrim into believing--- you know what I'll just quote it for you,

‘He’s dead,’ whispered Fulgrim, the aching loss and guilt of his crime too monstrous to believe. ‘I killed him.’ Yes, you did. With your own hands, you struck down your brother, he who had only thought well of you and fought faithfully with you through all the long years. ‘He… he was my brother.’ He was, and all he ever did was honour you. The looming presence that surrounded him and spoke to him seemed to claw at his eyes with insubstantial fingers, and Fulgrim felt his mind wrenched into the realm of memory, seeing once again the battle against the Diasporex and the Fist of Iron coming to the rescue of the Firebird. He saw the resentment he had picked at for months, only now understanding the altruism of Ferrus Manus’s deed and the loss of life his selfless act had incurred. Where before he had seen only self-aggrandisement in his brother’s action, he now saw it for the heroic deed it had truly been. His brother’s critical comments, the wounding darts meant to undermine him, he now saw had been jests designed to puncture his self-importance and restore his humility. What he had perceived as Ferrus’s prideful boasts and rash actions had been deeds of courage that he had spitefully dismissed. Ferrus’s rejection of his attempt to betray him was the act of a true friend, but only now did he see how his brother had, even then, tried to save him. ‘No, no, no,’ wept Fulgrim as the true horror of what he had done struck him with the force of a thunderbolt. He looked around through tear-filled eyes and saw the horrific changes wrought upon his beloved Legion, the perversions that masqueraded as epicurean pleasure. ‘Everything I have done is ashes,’ he whispered and swept up the golden Fireblade, so recently wielded by his brother in an attempt to undo the evil Fulgrim had embraced.

-Warhammer 40k: Fulgrim

Overall like I said even in the novel most of Fulgrim's actions were not of him, but him being corrupted even from the start. Regardless his legion was again I'd say top 3 and he himself at this point? IMO better than Girlyman.

And G-man had been busting his ass back at home and out in outer space, pulled together the rag-tag bunch of voidcrafts and commanded the hectic space battle before making landfall, fighting his now amped brother andhad his face cracked in two.

This is fair, but again G-man isn't defeating Angron and has already LOST to Mortarion while Bobby G had the Emperor's sword, granted Mortarion was a DP, but to be fair Bobby G had the Emperor's sword which is an amp in itself. Angron should do just fine in defeating Bobby since he won't be half dead and stepped on by a Titan this time around. Mortarion again could square up against Bobby G and would win, but I think he'd be too slow because I think by then Angron would of lost to Fulgrim

Yes. But we all know that G-man got into that entire engagement with unfavourable odds to begin with. It's the same as when Perty faced Demon Angron - he'd perform way less had he not been prepped and had insight beforehand. Bobby got this fight more or less in his lap, so i'd say it's even-steven when it comes to poor factors and much more reasonable to believe him to be capable of standing his ground for longer in this scenario.

I agree, Daemon Angron would beat Perty or Perty wouldn't of done what he'd had done. Thing is, bobby again before the two fought was fighting a half dead Angron because this isn't much longer after Angron had been stepped on and blasted apart. Bobby wasn't in as bad as shape at all and Lorgar is basically the worst primarch besides the Alpha Legion twins, so although he did well for what he had, nothing suggests the fight is gonna last all that much longer when Angron has both his axes and not some random Chainsaw Sword that he was bashing Girlyman with, and mind you in no way was Girlyman even winning the fight, basically from the start it was clear Girlyman was losing

Morty is durable because he's not getting a sword in his face. Fulgrim got better regeneration than Khan, so he'll perform better against an opponent like Mortarion that's wearing his opponents down.

Khan noted Morty was quite skilled and although he was tanking more hits than Khan, Mortarion was landing several blows to Khan which suggests that Mortarion will do the same to Fulgrim. I think everyone here is in agreement that Khan vs Fulgrim is an even fight, with Khan slightly taking the lead. In this case Mortarion was shockingly moving fast enough and his defense was good enough to deflect any sudden blows. He also exhausted Khan, Khan had enough energy for ONE last strike before he was gonna die. This means if he missed his one death blow, Mortarion was gonna kill him. This never happens because Mortarion's fleet starts to get attacked and hes forced to withdraw. Mortarion also was counting on deflecting the blow as well before killing Khan, but we all know plot wise Khan would of landed the blow, but if there wasn't any plot, it was 50 50. This means Mortarion is on evenish grounds with Fulgrim since Fulgrim much like Khan is quite quick this doesn't mean hes gonna win, Khan is also again quite skilled like Fulgrim, but this doesn't mean Mortarion is gonna lose either. This is again basically a simple durability vs speed argument since I believe Mortarion is skilled enough to deflect most of Fulgrim's blows just like with Khan. Fulgrim might inflict more damage, but overall it will be about the same and both will be exhausted

As for the healing factor is a solid point, but as mentioned down below Khan was basically a perfect counter to Mortarion, and although Fulgrim could certainly be smarter than Khan, again Fulgrim's weakness was that he didn't care to know much about Mortarion. Not that Mortarion is some kind of book that needs to be heavily studied, but again Mortarion isn't an idiot. Maybe too stubborn to learn anything new, but he is capable of observing others and Fulgrim has made it clear with his pride how he fights although his fighting is quite effective as well

In case you didn't know, the novel again suggest they are evenly matched,

The Khan fell back further, holding his dao two-handed. Mortarion was strong, as strong as the roots of the Ulaav mountains, but he was slow. The two of them were perfectly matched, like two sides of a medal

-Warhammer 40k: Scars

If the two allied they'd cover each other's "weaknesses" as well because they are basically direct opposites. Like I said at the end of the fight it was 50/50 I have it all written down if u want me to post the full fight, but as I mentioned already Fulgrim isn't doing any better or honestly any worse ( btw this is Khan's thoughts not Mortarion's )

If we fought on the same side, he and I, countering our weaknesses, could anything stand before us? he thought.

-Warhammer 40k: Scars

Lastly its unlikely Fulgrim would perform better in outlasting his opponent when he's only fought one person was Manus and the only reason why he wasn't tired as much is because Fulgrim was getting energy from the sword and was even getting amped enough to throw Manus back... which we all know isn't likely to happen without an amp since everyone ( ironically Khan included with the fight against mortarion ) suggests Manus was the strongest amongst them ( possibly Mortarion and Vulkan )

The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim’s sword pulsed with an evil light, bathing Ferrus Manus’s face in a leering purple glare. Energy streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them, deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstrous presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever have imagined. Diabolical strength flooded his limbs and he pushed against the power of Ferrus Manus, feeling his brother’s surprise at his resistance. With a cry of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back, spinning and lashing out with his sword.

-Warhammer 40k: Fulgrim

The first fight between Fulgrim and Manus though was more again about speed and skill vs durability and although Fulgrim won the fight, nothing suggests Manus is any more durable than Mortarion ( since u know... Mortarion has always been known to be the best in that section due to per legion alone )

And through it all, he kepttalking. He kept up the torrent of petty jibes and slights. Even when Mortarion rained blows at his dented helm, smacked him deep into the broken-up rockcrete, the barbs kept on coming, sometimes acid, sometimes brutal, sometimes merely juvenile.

The both of them kept talking, and towards the end there wasn't much talking. The novel made it clear Khan was exhausted and had enough energy for one last blow or he was dead,

The Khan held position, panting hard, trying to drag up energy for the final clash. His hearts thudded, his lungs burned. He held the dao poised, waiting for his enemy to move. Come to me. You can see my weakness. One thrust. One perfect thrust, angled precisely – he had the strength for that. It would have to be flawless; if it were not, no defence remained. Nothing else would suffice for this enemy. No lesser move would accomplish the kill.

-Warhammer 40k: Scars

So your point isn't honestly all that valid here. Khan was gonna die if he missed his last shot, Khan unlike Fulgrim took note of Mortarion especially their earlier encounters. Khan is a direct counter to Mortarion was well, Fulgrim is prolly close, but Khan is most likely faster. Like I said, I have the full fight, I have an entire Mortarion respect thread so ik what ure talking about, but again Khan was exhausted much like Fulgrim will be because of Mortarion's fighting style

True, i just now recall that Khan's refering to Mortys absurd durability as strenght-sapping etc. and giving him cred for not, you know, dying. That's what drained him in the first fight.

Agreed

In their second fight it kind of proves how Morty is fixed in his ways and, as i previous said, quite the dull. I mean, the guy hating the warp and chaos fiddlery the most falls to chaos. Moron be moroning.

Wym, meaning as in Mortarion falls for the bait again? Sure, it wasn't exactly like Mortarion went in full tard. He got roasted by Khan because Khan was roasting him so badly that Mortarion got angry and messed up and this is after Khan was doomed. Because he roasted him so hard this lead to Mortarion doing a long and lazy blow, not because Khan actually won the duel. If u had replaced Bobby G ( ironically haha ), or Russ or anyone who wasn't as CLEVER as Khan in trying to trigger Mortarion, the result would of been them dead, but 1 Khan's roasts messed up Mortarion's train of though and it made this VERY clear. Khan literally states he has to get inside mortarion's head in order to WIN. 2 The author, like i said.... was an idiot, because somehow... Khan.... was able to TIRE Mortarion, that's a problem.... In theory Mortarion should of never been tired at all, and hell his seven hour duel with Peter, should of ended with Mortarion being exhausted within like the first 30 mins lol. It wasn't the case and overall Mortarion has a decent track record as well suggesting he again can certainly take on Fulgrim and inflict far more damage than Girlyman could to Angron

I don't think G-man's going to go down faster than what Fulgrim can dish out to Mortarion, so we're at an impasse there. Because Mortarion is just painfully slow by all accounts, and Fulgrim isn't.

Fulgrim is no faster than Khan, and Khan noted he obviously had to make use of his speed or he was gonna lose from the start. The argument that could be made is Fulgrim is prolly a better fighter a better duelist, but it doesn't matter because Mortarion would certainly know this as well

So we have a guy with a very good weapon and blistering speed vs a slow tank without a face mask. I don't see the odds in Mortys favour.

Considering Mortarion's track record I dont see why he doesn't last tbh

I think your argument falls flat as well regarding how Angron's got better odds now since G-man also got better odds by not having his face cracked in half or having resisted a warp push, being fresh and not having to face a literal 1v2 situation. Bobby's too good to not know his role in this fight.

Angron has his natural weapons, Angron isn't half dead, and Lorgar isn't the best fighter and Girlyman? Stalemated Lorgar, wasn't even winning. As i posted, the second Angron stepped in was the second Girlyman was already dead.

???? I think we are on the wrong debate here. I'm debating two different debates. Fulgrim and Girlyman vs Angron and Mortarion as my first argument. Legion per Legion ( with leaders in mind ) as the second fight.

First fight, I favor Mortarion and Angron

Second fight, I favor EC and Ultramarines because they would in fact win, I said this from the start. Fulgrim and Girlyman aren't even going to have to fight Angron, they will simply let their legions wear him down sooner or later along with DG, but the actual legion per legion fight will be rough because of the environment which if given prep EC and Ultramarines stomp, but without it. They still have to step up and go from there, and Angron's ironically blitzing fighting style suggest they wont necessary have time to do so

DG won't move an inch unless they have to, and they're much less agile than their opponents regarding tactics. There isn't a scenario in the world in which you do Ultramarines and Emperors children justice where you believe them to ever be flanked. Ever. That's the most basic shit in combat history, and if any legion's read those books, it's the Ultramarines and Emperors children. Arguably Dark Angels. So the Ultras and Emperors children work in such absurdly good tandem here. It's practically a 2 legions vs 1 legion here in terms of agile tactics and that alone dictates the slim-to-none odds of the DGs ever flanking anything here.

DG have to unless Mortarion can convince Angron to not charge, and if they don't charge theyre gonna lose because again... WE's don't use tactics they simply charge, DG arent strangers to siege warfare and both Fulgrim and Bobby G know this, but it doesn't matter because any amount of set up isn't going to be all that great at first. However, I think part of the communication issue going on here is that I think you think that I'm giving the W to World Eaters and Death Guard, but I'm not, from the start I said EC and Ultras win, I just dont think it's a stomp. I think ironically due to the environment and how the WE's operate it kinda foils any solid defense the EC and UMs can form right away due to the fact they have a crazed brutally efficient CQC/H2H legion bull rushing them or in this case, zerg rushing them

When I say flanked, I mean as in WEs are gonna occupy the EC and UM's front lines long before they could make a solid defense allowing the DG to possibly flank, but u know what. I looked up the numbers and Ultramarines out number the WEs and DG combined lawl with it being 250,000 while WE are 150,000 and DG are 95,000 XD. I thought it was the other way around where the WE and DG out numbered the EC and UM by the opposite amount

I will give you some acknowledgement regarding how Fulgrim's too boasting to give a crap about studying Morty though.

Which is one of my arguments lol as to why Fulgrim doesn't end Mortarion any faster than Khan

Fair. But Bobby G compensates yet again, and Fulgrims lack of knowledge more than is made up by Bobbys absurd knowledge instead.

Again I think we're on two different pages, I'm saying

2 vs 2 for one fight

and

Legion vs Legion for the second. I've done this in all threads here ever since MoM's posted his first one

So how exactly is Girlyman gonna talk to Fulgrim when they're both fighting away and Girlyman is most likely gonna die? Girlyman doesn't exactly have a ton of knowledge on Mortarion besides "hes tanky!" Again that's why I said both Khan and Mortarion weren't known and Khan makes note of this in Scars as well, that was why Khan took Mortarion serious

Hell, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Bobby pulls the old Russ manouver on Angron in round 2 and have him blasted to shreds by being surrounded.

^ I wouldn't be surprised either, but unlike Russ who prepared for it IIRC Bobby will have a little harder of a time doing so ( this was before I found out the pucking ultramarines were 250k strong... man what the puck. )

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MordhauExtreme1

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@cergic: As for the earlier stuff, you can ignore it because it wasn't until mid way through that I found out Ultramarines were again, 250k strong.... but I didn't want to delete it because I didn't write it for nothing! XD

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cergic

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@mordhauextreme1:

In a random encounter? They can set up a lot, but there's only so much they can do when an legion is gonna instantly start charging. They can certainly set up kill zones, but without any prep its gonna be hard to start that right away when ur foe is not that far, in an environment that favors them? I mean i guess ure right, brains are always needed, but the Death Guard again have some decent brains when it comes to sieges once more and lets not forget... Death Guard were capable of taking the IWs head on and winning... Granted I understand Plagues and shit came into play, but IWs are also FAR better than anyone here especially in sieges, and that battle? Was a siege....

As for Fulgrim being better than Bobby, yes he is at least in 30k. We know the EC is top 3 best legions and have generally perfected the art of war very closely. If you were to take Fulgrim and his legion vs Bobby and his legion, I'd say Fulgrim wins almost every time because on a fundamental level of the Legion and due to Fulgrim they'd be just fine. They'd have to work for it cause bobby isn't obviously an idiot, but the huge change between 30k and 40k EC is no joke.

I'll just say ok on this one, because it's a different topic and we evidently agree on the legion vs legion part regardless

As for his character's journey, sure his biggest weakness is pride. The biggest thing his character went through though was accepting the sword, that slowly corrupted him and boosting his pride. However, I highly suggest re-reading the novel Fulgrim again because if I hadn't re-read it again..... I would 100% certainly agree with you, but everything from the way he acts, to the way he commands, etc was affected by the sword greatly. Even his decision making skills was affected by the sword. Example,

The daemon talks to Horus at the end, it states Fulgrim would of ran to the Emperor the second Horus brought up going against the Emperor and trying to over throw him. Meaning Fulgrim had changed that much from the start of the book to the end of the book. ( also means Fulgrim would of been a loyalist as well and Horus would of prolly been stopped then and there )

Furthermore Fulgrim after his second fight with Manus after he kills his brother, the Sword and Him have a talk and it points out how again it affected Fulgrim into believing--- you know what I'll just quote it for you,

Same take here as above and it's a fun thread topic on it's own - how loyalist Fulgrim supposedly should differ to his corrupted self pre-transformation.

This is fair, but again G-man isn't defeating Angron and has already LOST to Mortarion while Bobby G had the Emperor's sword, granted Mortarion was a DP, but to be fair Bobby G had the Emperor's sword which is an amp in itself. Angron should do just fine in defeating Bobby since he won't be half dead and stepped on by a Titan this time around. Mortarion again could square up against Bobby G and would win, but I think he'd be too slow because I think by then Angron would of lost to Fulgrim

--------------

I agree, Daemon Angron would beat Perty or Perty wouldn't of done what he'd had done. Thing is, bobby again before the two fought was fighting a half dead Angron because this isn't much longer after Angron had been stepped on and blasted apart. Bobby wasn't in as bad as shape at all and Lorgar is basically the worst primarch besides the Alpha Legion twins, so although he did well for what he had, nothing suggests the fight is gonna last all that much longer when Angron has both his axes and not some random Chainsaw Sword that he was bashing Girlyman with, and mind you in no way was Girlyman even winning the fight, basically from the start it was clear Girlyman was losing

I also don't believe G-man to ever beat his broski in a straight Melee brawl. Arguably with Arbitrator, but that's also doubtful. I moreso retain the belief that G-man knows what's on the table and will try to keep him in a favourable position as much as possible to lend Fulgrim time. Somewhat of a headcanon approach but it's doing G-man justice. He knew what Angron was, was capable of and had all of his brothers in his mind. He played out a lot of scenarios based on their traits and powersets after all. Lorgar wasn't weaksauce after his pilgrimage though. He was chaos amped by then given his new status as a chaos sorcerer as well, being able to use warpsauce.

Khan noted Morty was quite skilled and although he was tanking more hits than Khan, Mortarion was landing several blows to Khan which suggests that Mortarion will do the same to Fulgrim. I think everyone here is in agreement that Khan vs Fulgrim is an even fight, with Khan slightly taking the lead. In this case Mortarion was shockingly moving fast enough and his defense was good enough to deflect any sudden blows. He also exhausted Khan, Khan had enough energy for ONE last strike before he was gonna die. This means if he missed his one death blow, Mortarion was gonna kill him. This never happens because Mortarion's fleet starts to get attacked and hes forced to withdraw. Mortarion also was counting on deflecting the blow as well before killing Khan, but we all know plot wise Khan would of landed the blow, but if there wasn't any plot, it was 50 50. This means Mortarion is on evenish grounds with Fulgrim since Fulgrim much like Khan is quite quick this doesn't mean hes gonna win, Khan is also again quite skilled like Fulgrim, but this doesn't mean Mortarion is gonna lose either. This is again basically a simple durability vs speed argument since I believe Mortarion is skilled enough to deflect most of Fulgrim's blows just like with Khan. Fulgrim might inflict more damage, but overall it will be about the same and both will be exhausted

As for the healing factor is a solid point, but as mentioned down below Khan was basically a perfect counter to Mortarion, and although Fulgrim could certainly be smarter than Khan, again Fulgrim's weakness was that he didn't care to know much about Mortarion. Not that Mortarion is some kind of book that needs to be heavily studied, but again Mortarion isn't an idiot. Maybe too stubborn to learn anything new, but he is capable of observing others and Fulgrim has made it clear with his pride how he fights although his fighting is quite effective as well

In case you didn't know, the novel again suggest they are evenly matched,

Khan only started getting tagged by Morty after he landed a lot of strikes and drove Morty back.

Morty was never described as shockingly fast. Moreso really slow tbh.

Posting some excerpts from "Scar" below to highlight what i mean. The underlined parts put emphasis on how freaking slow he is/overwhelmed by speed.

‘I see your mind, brother,’ hissed the Khan, hammering home the attack. ‘You would turn me, or end me.’ Mortarion grunted as he blocked the incoming dao. He moved far more slowly than the Khan, but everything he did was solid, dense, and indomitable. ‘If you’re stubborn enough not to see the chance here, then, yes – your time is over.’ The Khan laughed. Wielding his blade again freely felt good. The psychneuein had been a trivial challenge – going up against a fellow primarch was the kind of test he had missed for too long. He darted in close, spinning on one boot before thrusting his sword at Mortarion’s midriff. The strike was blocked, but the Death Lord stumbled. ‘So slow,’ taunted the Khan. His blade danced, flashing like the lightning above. Every strike was weighted heavily, slicing chunks from Mortarion’s thick plate as if it were corroded scrap

-------------------------------

Mortarion rallied, breathing hard. Though his reflexes were slow, his strength was impressive. He had already taken blows that would have felled a lesser warrior and yet seemed barely troubled.

-----

Mortarion dug in, and his heavy boots sank into the ash. The Khan launched a series of blistering dao-blows, glancing off the Death Lord’s thick pauldrons and sending him reeling.

------

‘We are all tyrants,’ Mortarion rasped, picking up the pace of his scythe-blows. ‘Do not fool yourself. We were bred for nothing else.’ ‘Not I,’ said the Khan, whirling around him, moving with an almost unconscious balance.

---------

The Khan drove Mortarion back further, pounding and pummelling him across the square’s margins and towards the edge of the broken pyramid.

---------

‘I deserve it,’ Mortarion wheezed, gasping into his rebreather as he laboured under the assault.

----------

Mortarion, digging in again and halting his backward course. His armour had been hacked into a tattered parody of its former solidity

--------------------

And even when Morty managed to stagger Khan after talking shit and landing a strike and gained momentum, it says:

The Khan fell back further, holding his dao two-handed. Mortarion was strong, as strong as the roots of the Ulaav mountains, but he was slow. The two of them were perfectly matched, like two sides of a medal.

Khan only started to sag when he learned that Ferrus died and started to get tired. Pre-chaos Morty fights vs Primarchs in one way: "Survive the abuse, pray the opponent get tired then return to sender". He only lived due to Khan not managing to give him the Ferrus treatment.

The Death Lord absorbed every strike that connected, sucking the power out of the blows like a leech, taking the hits and coming back for more.

But ok, i can agree with you that Khan is faster than Fulgrim. But i think what Fulgrim lacks in speed compared to Khan he makes up for with lethality and perfected blademanship & no wasted movements. What Mortarion represents is a perfect target for someone like Fulgrim.

So your point isn't honestly all that valid here. Khan was gonna die if he missed his last shot, Khan unlike Fulgrim took note of Mortarion especially their earlier encounters. Khan is a direct counter to Mortarion was well, Fulgrim is prolly close, but Khan is most likely faster. Like I said, I have the full fight, I have an entire Mortarion respect thread so ik what ure talking about, but again Khan was exhausted much like Fulgrim will be because of Mortarion's fighting style

See above

Wym, meaning as in Mortarion falls for the bait again? Sure, it wasn't exactly like Mortarion went in full tard. He got roasted by Khan because Khan was roasting him so badly that Mortarion got angry and messed up and this is after Khan was doomed. Because he roasted him so hard this lead to Mortarion doing a long and lazy blow, not because Khan actually won the duel. If u had replaced Bobby G ( ironically haha ), or Russ or anyone who wasn't as CLEVER as Khan in trying to trigger Mortarion, the result would of been them dead, but 1 Khan's roasts messed up Mortarion's train of though and it made this VERY clear. Khan literally states he has to get inside mortarion's head in order to WIN. 2 The author, like i said.... was an idiot, because somehow... Khan.... was able to TIRE Mortarion, that's a problem.... In theory Mortarion should of never been tired at all, and hell his seven hour duel with Peter, should of ended with Mortarion being exhausted within like the first 30 mins lol. It wasn't the case and overall Mortarion has a decent track record as well suggesting he again can certainly take on Fulgrim and inflict far more damage than Girlyman could to Angron

Yes, and that he just decided to go for a single thought vs Khan in that encounter and didn't bother adjusting his strats. "oh, you just absorbed my blows"? And didn't do jack to compensate. He even felt pain during their second bout, still. Single minded and dullwitted. But yeah, Morty should've stomped.

I don't think G-man's role vs Angron in the 2v2 scenario is to beat him, still. Only last until his Bro beats up Morty. Or for that matter, swap with Fulgrim when Morty's messed up and near defeated.

Considering Mortarion's track record I dont see why he doesn't last tbh

Mentioned above, but again, because i don't believe Fulgrim's going to miss going for the neck or facestab

Angron has his natural weapons, Angron isn't half dead, and Lorgar isn't the best fighter and Girlyman? Stalemated Lorgar, wasn't even winning. As i posted, the second Angron stepped in was the second Girlyman was already dead.

???? I think we are on the wrong debate here. I'm debating two different debates. Fulgrim and Girlyman vs Angron and Mortarion as my first argument. Legion per Legion ( with leaders in mind ) as the second fight.

First fight, I favor Mortarion and Angron

Second fight, I favor EC and Ultramarines because they would in fact win, I said this from the start. Fulgrim and Girlyman aren't even going to have to fight Angron, they will simply let their legions wear him down sooner or later along with DG, but the actual legion per legion fight will be rough because of the environment which if given prep EC and Ultramarines stomp, but without it. They still have to step up and go from there, and Angron's ironically blitzing fighting style suggest they wont necessary have time to do so

Naah you undersell G-man. He got tagged twice, and Lorgar remarked that despite having his face cracked he didn't show it, all the while Lorgar almost couldn't breathe. G-man was winning, and since he managed to make Angron look like a trashed up piece of meat as well he had energy to spare.

I understand that we talk about 2 scenarios at once. My comment here merely reinforced that G-man knows what he's doing in the 2v2 scenario as well as the battle scenario.

DG have to unless Mortarion can convince Angron to not charge, and if they don't charge theyre gonna lose because again... WE's don't use tactics they simply charge, DG arent strangers to siege warfare and both Fulgrim and Bobby G know this, but it doesn't matter because any amount of set up isn't going to be all that great at first. However, I think part of the communication issue going on here is that I think you think that I'm giving the W to World Eaters and Death Guard, but I'm not, from the start I said EC and Ultras win, I just dont think it's a stomp. I think ironically due to the environment and how the WE's operate it kinda foils any solid defense the EC and UMs can form right away due to the fact they have a crazed brutally efficient CQC/H2H legion bull rushing them or in this case, zerg rushing them

When I say flanked, I mean as in WEs are gonna occupy the EC and UM's front lines long before they could make a solid defense allowing the DG to possibly flank, but u know what. I looked up the numbers and Ultramarines out number the WEs and DG combined lawl with it being 250,000 while WE are 150,000 and DG are 95,000 XD. I thought it was the other way around where the WE and DG out numbered the EC and UM by the opposite amount

hahaha ye, i'll refrain from commenting :p

So how exactly is Girlyman gonna talk to Fulgrim when they're both fighting away and Girlyman is most likely gonna die? Girlyman doesn't exactly have a ton of knowledge on Mortarion besides "hes tanky!" Again that's why I said both Khan and Mortarion weren't known and Khan makes note of this in Scars as well, that was why Khan took Mortarion serious

Because he's still very mobile, won't isolate himself in an unfavourable position if he can avoid it (being big brained and all) and he's evidently good at tanking damage and not surviving. Dude only died as well as got into the stasis to weapons being corrupt/blight after all.

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MasterofMatches

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@cergic: I don't mind if you and Mordhau talk about loyalist Fulgrim vs current one either since Fulgrim is still apart of the thread, plus the discussion is great! :)

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@cergic: I'll respond soon to this, I haven't forgotten :)