DCEU Zod replaces Thor in the arena...

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FinalKingThanos

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I think hulk is one of the most lowballed characters in live action but jesus this thread is bait central lol

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mrmonster

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#52 mrmonster  Online

Zod stomps round 1. In round 2, he still wins, but narrowly.

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plotweapon16255

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TakenStew22

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Zod stomps Hulk, then him and Nam Ek stomp both Hulk and Thor.

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BladeOfFury

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#55 BladeOfFury  Online

@nwname said:

@bladeoffury: Why 2+ km? He wasnt that tall yet (especially considering the model being much smaller for that scene) and going by the script Surtur moves himself back due to shock and impact. Its like a man tilting his body back after a bee sting to the face. And Surtur is a magical being, we don't even know how much he weights even if it was a legit feat. Most of the time Kaiju have weird official masses. For example 616 Celestials are 600 meters tall but weight less than 10k tons.

Surtur started out at 800 meters and grew to 4 km by the time he destroyed Asgard, according to the VFX director. He would have been well over 2 km when Hulk punched him, assuming a linear growth rate.

The part of the script that you're talking about actually referred to the step back that Surtur took as Hulk is pounding away on him.

We don't know exactly how much he weighs, but what we can do is make fair assumptions to set a minimum. Do you think it's fair to assume that Surtur weighs as much as a regular human with size equalized? Half as much as a human? 1/4th as much as a human? Because even then, the feat would be over a million tons. There is also this, which supports the idea that Surtur isn't a paperweight:

 Surtur's arrival literally SHAKES the bedrock of Asgard, causing FISSURES to spiderweb all around him, and DISLODGING some of the foundation on the bridge and around the palace.


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NWName

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@nwname said:

@bladeoffury: Why 2+ km? He wasnt that tall yet (especially considering the model being much smaller for that scene) and going by the script Surtur moves himself back due to shock and impact. Its like a man tilting his body back after a bee sting to the face. And Surtur is a magical being, we don't even know how much he weights even if it was a legit feat. Most of the time Kaiju have weird official masses. For example 616 Celestials are 600 meters tall but weight less than 10k tons.

Surtur started out at 800 meters and grew to 4 km by the time he destroyed Asgard, according to the VFX director. He would have been well over 2 km when Hulk punched him, assuming a linear growth rate.

The part of the script that you're talking about actually referred to the step back that Surtur took as Hulk is pounding away on him.

We don't know exactly how much he weighs, but what we can do is make fair assumptions to set a minimum. Do you think it's fair to assume that Surtur weighs as much as a regular human with size equalized? Half as much as a human? 1/4th as much as a human? Because even then, the feat would be over a million tons. There is also this, which supports the idea that Surtur isn't a paperweight:

 Surtur's arrival literally SHAKES the bedrock of Asgard, causing FISSURES to spiderweb all around him, and DISLODGING some of the foundation on the bridge and around the palace. 

800m to 4km is the vfx model size that you can also find with pixel scaling to the larger scenes. Still that might not be his canon size, as size of a lot of kaiju changes to better fit the scene. For example Godzilla had a 600 ft model used for him in some scenes, 300 and 400 in others. His canon size is 393 ft. Surtur has some inconsistent size too.

There was no step back after the consecutive hits, they were not budging Surtur. The order its written in the script is weird and makes it seem like it comes after the consecutive hits tho.

With the same "fair assumption" you get 3 million ton celestials while they are 9 tons in canon. Sometimes canon weights are upscaled according to the square cube law espaciaally for giant monsters (sometimes even less) instead of being linear to volume.

A 1000 times upscaled human (less than 2km) moving/bursting at that speed would have done much more than just mild shaking. His hits are mentioned to take out an entire city block and thats what he does on screen too but with human like density they would have taken out nearly the entire surface of asgard with a single hit's shockwave.

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BOC

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Bruh, NW vs BaitOfFury

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deactivated-5dc97b76a71ff

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Zod effortlessly stomps

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D2therJ

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RajjarsAlt

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#61  Edited By RajjarsAlt

@iamgawwwd said:
@boc said:

Bruh, NW vs BaitOfFury

Loading Video...

arent you the retard who thinks elijah from vampire diaries can beat wonder woman and then lied about feats every 4 seconds....who the hell are you to talk

Lmao, Spike. Stop running away.

OT: Zod beats Hulk. Hulk's high-end striking is in the ballpark of high-end Kryptonian feats. Hulk loses because Zod won't let up on him.

Glad Hulk and Thor should beat Zod - Zod will get clobbered.

Nam joins in, could go either way. If it's Thor against Zod and Nam against Hulk, Thor won't put Zod down, but Hulk will put Nam down making a 2 v 1 against Zod. If it's Thor vs Nam and Hulk vs Zod, it all depends if Thor clobbers Nam faster than Zod clobbers Hulk.

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BOC

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RajjarsAlt

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@boc said:

@rajjarsalt:

Lmao, Spike. Stop running away.

?

Sorry, should have removed you from the quote.

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BOC

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BladeOfFury

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#65 BladeOfFury  Online

@nwname:

800m to 4km is the vfx model size that you can also find with pixel scaling to the larger scenes. Still that might not be his canon size, as size of a lot of kaiju changes to better fit the scene. For example Godzilla had a 600 ft model used for him in some scenes, 300 and 400 in others. His canon size is 393 ft. Surtur has some inconsistent size too.

The VFX team is responsible for the visual size we see on screen. If you mean that the visual size might not be what the directors intended his size to be, that's possible, but it shouldn't be our default assumption. Without any contradicting evidence, we should assume that what we see is the intent.

If you're solely referring to the inconsistency in his visual size, we can look at the size distribution and find the average, but the VFX director's statement should be a pretty good indication of the size the team was trying to make him.

There was no step back after the consecutive hits, they were not budging Surtur. The order its written in the script is weird and makes it seem like it comes after the consecutive hits tho.

Re-watching the scene, Surtur didn't step back at all, so the script is referring to something that doesn't exist. The fact that Surtur was literally looking at Hulk right before getting slammed also disqualifies the idea that he was simply surprised.

With the same "fair assumption" you get 3 million ton celestials while they are 9 tons in canon.

  • Didn't you say they are 9000 tons before?
  • Were the Celestials stated to be 600 meters tall and 9000 tons in mass by the same source?
  • It's possible that the people who made that statement envisioned the Celestials to be hollow suits of armor. In "Even the Watchers can die," it was shown that Celestials actually exist in hyperspace, and their armor is what allows them to interact with the physical world.

Anyway, there are obviously instances when the intent doesn't match the calc, but without knowing the intent already, we should default to the calc, making conservative assumptions to have a good margin of safety.

Sometimes canon weights are upscaled according to the square cube law espaciaally for giant monsters (sometimes even less) instead of being linear to volume.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

A 1000 times upscaled human (less than 2km) moving/bursting at that speed would have done much more than just mild shaking. His hits are mentioned to take out an entire city block and thats what he does on screen too but with human like density they would have taken out nearly the entire surface of asgard with a single hit's shockwave.

I don't know if that's true and I don't think it's possible to check, but the writers would definitely be unaware of the shockwave something of that weight would make with a hit.

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RajjarsAlt

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@nwname:

A 1000 times upscaled human (less than 2km) moving/bursting at that speed would have done much more than just mild shaking. His hits are mentioned to take out an entire city block and thats what he does on screen too but with human like density they would have taken out nearly the entire surface of asgard with a single hit's shockwave.

I don't know if that's true and I don't think it's possible to check, but the writers would definitely be unaware of the shockwave something of that weight would make with a hit.

If I may, Asgardian construction stuff is pretty durable (e.g. Bifrost glass).

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BladeOfFury

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#67 BladeOfFury  Online
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Richubs

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Zod crushes these chumps

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AkshSarpanch

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Zod is too fast and has good striking power.

He wins with low difficulty

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NWName

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@bladeoffury: Idk how wed decide a median size. I guess 800 m to 4 km seems fair as intended size.

So the script is bs? Still the possibility of Surtur himself tilting back due to pain exists.

I forgot to add k after 9.

Well i can't find the source. Normally the wiki gives sources for citations but i couldn't find it. I also found sources saying only 260 tons idk which is true.

Also the armor thickness isn't that consistent.

In cases of kaiju mass volumetric increase is not the default. Most modern kaiju movies go with more square cube law accurate weights like Pacific Rim and Rampage.

Basically there is a thing called square cube law which is about the volume ÷ cross sectional area increase. When something gets enlarged 10 times its mass increases 10³ times but its cs area increases 10² times causing each part of the body to be put under 10 timesmore stress. If you normally enlarge a human 100 times he would collapse and die under gravity. Some more realistic universes make the kaijus weight little to overcome this (or you can have the creature be made out of a material that is super strong).

At least the Vfx team would have known the damage of something like that since they use physics engines iirc.

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NWName

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@rajjarsalt: They are mostly stone with gold added. Dark elf ships were tearing through them easily but those things couldnt scratch the bridge. Bridge is special.

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Lan_Fan

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Zod would beat the shit out of Hulk.

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RampageTheFirst

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@abominationblitzes:

What? This is actually a close match 50/50.

No it's not LOL.

Hulk hits harder and has decent striking, he was producing an earthquake and shockwaves In his first movie.

An Earthquake? wtf are you on lol, that's not an earthquake, you'd be surprised how unimpressive that is if you actually had any idea what you were talking about.

Same feat has been replicated by by missiles, and grenades, are you saying they're above Zods paycheck now? not to mention, Hulks striking was alright in his first movie, nothing above Clarks who Zod was ragdolling.

Skilled enough to overpower MCU Thanos, the most powerful being of the universe. He is comparable and equal to Thanos in strenght.

I'm gonna assume you're joking.

Great travel speed which would help in arena after Zod’s striking power.

Zod hangs with characters who have mach+ level of travel speed....lol. Ultron is garbage, are you seriously comparing Ultron to Zod? Ultron couldn't even dodge bullets.

Strong enough to hurt Vibranium Ultron and send him to accross all Sokovia.

He was already weakened prior to that because Vision, Tony and Thor wore him out.

Rest of your post is just personal vendetta that I could care less about.

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deactivated-5dc97b76a71ff

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Zod stomps

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BladeOfFury

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#75 BladeOfFury  Online

@nwname:

Idk how wed decide a median size. I guess 800 m to 4 km seems fair as intended size.

Well then Surtur was over 2 km tall when Hulk slammed him.

So the script is bs?

It cannot be used as evidence in regards to Hulk's slam because it was not referring to Hulk's slam (in fact it was referring to something that doesn't even exist).

Still the possibility of Surtur himself tilting back due to pain exists.

In which case Hulk hurt someone who tanked a shockwave at point blank that later expanded for miles and destroyed mountain ranges. This is even better.

But I don't think that's the case, considering how Surtur's tilt was perfectly in line with Hulk's slam. If it was the result of pain, there should have been a slight time delay.

I forgot to add k after 9.

Well i can't find the source. Normally the wiki gives sources for citations but i couldn't find it. I also found sources saying only 260 tons idk which is true.

This is just inconsistency then, not a discrepancy between the calc and intent, unless the two contradicting statements were made by the same source.

Also the armor thickness isn't that consistent.

Okay? I'm saying that it's possible that the people who made that statement imagined the Celestials to be hollow suits of armor, which would drastically decrease their weight.

In cases of kaiju mass volumetric increase is not the default. Most modern kaiju movies go with more square cube law accurate weights like Pacific Rim and Rampage.

Basically there is a thing called square cube law which is about the volume ÷ cross sectional area increase. When something gets enlarged 10 times its mass increases 10³ times but its cs area increases 10² times causing each part of the body to be put under 10 timesmore stress. If you normally enlarge a human 100 times he would collapse and die under gravity. Some more realistic universes make the kaijus weight little to overcome this (or you can have the creature be made out of a material that is super strong).

Surtur tanked a shockwave at point blank that later expanded for miles and destroyed mountain ranges, so yeah, he is made of some super strong material.

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incursion2

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MCU Hulk is really underrated on CV, Zod's not stomping but he would win due to flight advantage. If hulk manages to start pummeling him than it would get interesting.

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NWName

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@nwname:

Idk how wed decide a median size. I guess 800 m to 4 km seems fair as intended size.

Well then Surtur was over 2 km tall when Hulk slammed him.

Based on? Linear size increase? That would make hulk around 50 meters tall. Surtur is also comparattively not that large when compared with Helas spikes.

So the script is bs?

It cannot be used as evidence in regards to Hulk's slam because it was not referring to Hulk's slam (in fact it was referring to something that doesn't even exist).

Yeah it wasn't a step.

Still the possibility of Surtur himself tilting back due to pain exists.

In which case Hulk hurt someone who tanked a shockwave at point blank that later expanded for miles and destroyed mountain ranges. This is even better.

But I don't think that's the case, considering how Surtur's tilt was perfectly in line with Hulk's slam. If it was the result of pain, there should have been a slight time delay.

Not really better. In fact not even comparable. A human can survive a 200 000 joule explosion from 2 meters but a 0.0001 joule bee sting still hurts right? There is a massive difference between the surface area effected.

You are right the head getting pushed at first seems intantaneous.

I forgot to add k after 9.

Well i can't find the source. Normally the wiki gives sources for citations but i couldn't find it. I also found sources saying only 260 tons idk which is true.

This is just inconsistency then, not a discrepancy between the calc and intent, unless the two contradicting statements were made by the same source.

Also the armor thickness isn't that consistent.

Okay? I'm saying that it's possible that the people who made that statement imagined the Celestials to be hollow suits of armor, which would drastically decrease their weight.

Most of the time (iirc all i saw) they aren't that thin. around dozens of meters thick.

In cases of kaiju mass volumetric increase is not the default. Most modern kaiju movies go with more square cube law accurate weights like Pacific Rim and Rampage.

Basically there is a thing called square cube law which is about the volume ÷ cross sectional area increase. When something gets enlarged 10 times its mass increases 10³ times but its cs area increases 10² times causing each part of the body to be put under 10 timesmore stress. If you normally enlarge a human 100 times he would collapse and die under gravity. Some more realistic universes make the kaijus weight little to overcome this (or you can have the creature be made out of a material that is super strong).

Surtur tanked a shockwave at point blank that later expanded for miles and destroyed mountain ranges, so yeah, he is made of some super strong material.

Just to add, enhanced obsidian spikes with quantifiable speed and kinetic energy as thick as Hela's height were pushing back Surtur pretty fast. He either feels pain or weights little. And i noticed Hulk gets thrown across the bridge near instantly. That should be a pretty good feat. In fact i think it should be around 100k+ tons.

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RandyButterNubs

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Zod makes him kneel in the colosseum.

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death4bunnies

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@nwname:

You can look at the kinetic energy and speed, but you dont know if the spikes had 'push' behind them.

Kinda like a TK pushing on the spikes, maybe she can only make them go x fast, but can put some TK 'weight' on them.

I think Surtar weighs as much as that much magma would weigh.

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BOC

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@death4bunnies:

Kinda like a TK pushing on the spikes, maybe she can only make them go x fast, but can put some TK 'weight' on them.

Is there anything to suggest this? From what I recall, it always seemed like she simply threw them.

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death4bunnies

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#81  Edited By death4bunnies

@boc said:

@death4bunnies:

Kinda like a TK pushing on the spikes, maybe she can only make them go x fast, but can put some TK 'weight' on them.

Is there anything to suggest this? From what I recall, it always seemed like she simply threw them.

I kinda would expect it.

-------

Oh and ya when she pulls down the wall that suggests the force behind her blades isnt just a throw, but a kinda TK.

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BOC

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@death4bunnies:

I don't think that level of TK demonstrates much force. Hela throwing the large spikes at Surtur should be comparable. If her TK were > her throws, wouldn't that just make her throws faster anyway? It could just be a feat for Hela, with the visual speed being off, but we shouldn't assume that without knowing how much Surtur weighs in the first place.

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BladeOfFury

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#83 BladeOfFury  Online

@nwname:

Based on? Linear size increase? That would make hulk around 50 meters tall. Surtur is also comparattively not that large when compared with Helas spikes.

Using regular-sized characters to gauge the size of giant constructs or monsters isn't reliable. If the directors wanted to make Surtur over 2 kilometers tall and maintain Hulk's height of 2.5 meters, we wouldn't even see Hulk when he landed on Surtur's head (without zooming in in Hulk, in which case we wouldn't see Surtur's head). The VFX team has no choice but to change the size. Same with the spikes. Hela had to be visible while she stood on the spikes, and the spikes had to be visible when they pierced Surtur (preferably not looking like toothpicks), so they had to change the size.

Again, the VFX team clearly stated the size that they intended Surtur to be, so using that would be the best option.

Most of the time (iirc all i saw) they aren't that thin. around dozens of meters thick

If that's true and if the statements were made by the same source, then that would be an example. But we shouldn't default to the assumption that the writers don't know what they're talking about if there is no such contradiction. In Surtur's case, there is no contradicting statement, so a calc should be our best way to convert size to mass.

Just to add, enhanced obsidian spikes with quantifiable speed and kinetic energy as thick as Hela's height were pushing back Surtur pretty fast. He either feels pain or weights little.

It's a feat for Hela.

And i noticed Hulk gets thrown across the bridge near instantly. That should be a pretty good feat. In fact i think it should be around 100k+ tons.

Oh yeah, Surtur is a multi-million tonner himself and Hulk tanked his throw without a problem. OP

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BladeOfFury

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#84 BladeOfFury  Online

@boc: Wait, I think it could make sense for spikes to move Surtur even by visual speed. They spikes would weigh thousands of tons and they were travelling at supersonic speeds.

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BOC

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BaitOfFury using assumptions to discredit contradicting evidence of his other assumptions.

TOAA at work.

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BladeOfFury

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#86  Edited By BladeOfFury  Online

@boc: Did the spikes visually travel at supersonic speeds? Yes or no?

Were they hundreds of meters long based off of Surtur, who is kilometers tall? Yes or no?

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Arthur_Morgan

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zod blitzes.

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death4bunnies

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@boc said:

@death4bunnies:

I don't think that level of TK demonstrates much force. Hela throwing the large spikes at Surtur should be comparable. If her TK were > her throws, wouldn't that just make her throws faster anyway? It could just be a feat for Hela, with the visual speed being off, but we shouldn't assume that without knowing how much Surtur weighs in the first place.

I dont think its a big assumption.

She controls the spikes with some kinda TK.

She can pull them towards her.

Why couldn't she push them?

------

Also no I do not think force is speed/weight alone when there is something 'pushing' the object.

I think its called applied force.

Kinda the difference between throwing a baseball at someone and pushing a baseball into someones head.

The throw has a initial force.

The push has a constant applied force.

/....Imagine you had TK control over the baseball and you threw it.

I dont think the speed vs mass equation works when there is a applied force that could still be working on the object.

-------

I wasnt trying to use this as a extra ability or anything, I was just pointing out to NWname why I dont think calling Sutar light in weight, because Helas spikes pushed him, based off the mass and speed of Helas spikes; because there could be additional force working on the spikes.

Id think it would be more fair to call Surtar the weight of that much magma.

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BladeOfFury

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#90  Edited By BladeOfFury  Online

@nwname: Forgot to mention, a bee's sting hurts because its stinger pierces you, and also because it releases a venom that trigger pain receptors. It has nothing to do with the force with which it landed on you lol. So if you want to assume that Hulk hurt someone who didn't have the same reaction when a mountain-busting shockwave hit him at point blank, that's fine too.

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BOC

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@death4bunnies:

Fair points, hadn't thought about the force that way. Regardless, I think my point stands. The TK force she's demonstrated (Door is all I've seen) should be comparable, if not less, than the force she demonstrated when sending the spikes at Surtur. Granted, she didn't really struggle. Sure, it can be a feat for Hela. But I wouldn't discredit the visual contradiction on the basis of that assumption. Especially considering the fact that all we have for Surtur's weight is assumptions in the first place.

@bladeoffury

Did the spikes visually travel at supersonic speeds? Yes or no?

This isn't what my comment was addressing. Regardless, to answer your question, yes. What are you basing it's weight on?

Were they hundreds of meters long based off of Surtur, who is kilometers tall? Yes or no?

From what I could gather, we are given a range from 800m to 4km. I'm not sure where you gathered 2km+ height, unless you used a linear growth rate. While visual scaling shouldn't be used to contradict a given height, I'm not going to assume the visual scaling in that scene was off based on your assumption of linear growth. Especially considering the given range does include the visual scaling.

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BladeOfFury

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#92 BladeOfFury  Online

@boc: The argument here is that Surtur had to be especially light for the spikes to move him. If you choose a smaller size for Surtur, yes, the spikes would be smaller, but they would also have less weight to move, so it cancels out.

I think it's fair to assume a linear growth rate because of this:

He is slowly but steadily GROWING in size, and he carries with him a massive flaming sword, which GROWS as well.  

But even if we ignore that and use the minimum of 800 meters (and assume that Surtur suddenly grew by 3 kilometers at the very end), the spikes would be about a hundred meters long.

What are you basing it's weight on?

On its size, and the assumption that the obsidian stone weighs about as much as regular rock. It would in the thousands of tons.

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Supermanforever

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#93  Edited By Supermanforever

@bladeoffury said:

@crunch5481: What is the maximum number of tons MoS Kryptonians can move with a bullrush, do you think? 1000 tons? 10 000? 100 000?

i mean Clark broke trough a ship that can no sell nuke level impacts. Also his casual bullrush tilted scoutship slightly though he broke trough which lessend the impact. But tilting it is already probably 100000+ ton feat.

OT. Unless speed is equalised, it will be a bloodbath in favor of zod.

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death4bunnies

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@supermanforever: Faora melted uru and nuke proof bank value, they survived black hole and satellite re-entry. Zod and Superman are Mach 5+ combat speed and have incredible blunt force durability. Zod uppercut in Superman was 6 buildings and 15 city blocks, shifted tectonic plates is million of tons and striking is enough to hurt a while building down. I love when you realize Heat Vision has better feats than Thor lightning.

^^ for those who lowball Zod and Superman, he wins but Hulk can put a decent fight

Faora melted Uru???? When???

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MarvelandDCfan24

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MCU Hulk sucks, hell put CW Arrow in the ring without his bow and even he beats the Hulk more times than not

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death4bunnies

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@death4bunnies: she destroyed and damaged a URU bank value + tie in comics.

Star level striking for Faora and planetary strenght for DCEU Superman based on statements.

I’ll have proof on discord

A Uru bank vault huh?

Can you post the scan here??

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I dont think uru exists in DCEU is the problem.