DCEU Superman vs Fox Dark Phoenix

Jean

@eredin12:

How is he a statue to her?

QS definitely wasn't running his top speeds, simply because when time slowedo down, the lighting that storm shot was being outpaced by Mach 3 bullets.

How do you know the bullets weren't much faster hmm?

Lightning isn't slow and neither is QS which means the bullet fired was fast.

The fastest bullets are at mach 3 at most, they weren't special guns, this is the 90s. Moreover, people were actively falling + the free flowing debris.

It's more logical to assume that storms lightning behaves differently than natural lightning, which would mean that it's a lot slower. If natural lightning is moving to a crawl, things subjected to gravity and other natural phenomenon would essentially be frozen.

@balancedtruth: so how is phoenix Vs cm any different than Vs superman

@eredin12:

He never really reacted to bullets because they don't really harm him, he's never really needed a reason to react and if he did the next argument would be "Superman is afraid of bullets, he's not durable enough ect"

Secondly you have comprehension issues. First READ what I typed instead of inserting your own words.I never said bullets moved faster than QS. I said "the lighting that storm shot was being outpaced by Mach 3 bullets"and no his perceptions arnt the same. His perception/speed has been clocked at different levela/variations in all of his apparences.

Fox isn't the only verse that portrays lightning differently. In the flash during flash time speed force lightning was still actively moving very fast despite Barry statuing a nuke in the flash series.

@eredin12:

That not a weak argument, how often does Supes dodge bullets? He mostly tanks them. He's fighting Super powered beings in 90% of his appearances. He doesn't care about bullets.

I already pointed out QS moved at different speeds in DofP, Apocalypse, and Dark Phoenix.

I have given you multiple instances of lightning reacting differentlty, you'really just choosing to ignore it.

You didnt even watch the movie, so everything you're posting is base off of assumption without watching the movie. Until you watch the movie , or at least the scene, there's nothing to discuss.

@x_insignia1: Was the lightning moving slower than the bullet? If so then she doesn't really have any arguments for blitzing.

@eredin12: @x_insignia1: @thegallowsruler:

There seems to be a bit of misinformation here.

Im compressing the video of the QS vs Phoenix now, I think it will clear some things up.

@death4bunnies:

Cool

@thegallowsruler:

Yeah, lightning was pretty much frozen, bullet still moving

@eredin12: @x_insignia1: @thegallowsruler:

Here is the Video.

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A few things id like to clear up.

Number 1, Quicksilver clearly statued storms lightning.

Number 2, The 'shrapnel' that is still moving isn't in a free fall but being blown apart by Jeans TK.

Number 3, The gun Beast uses isn't a real life weapon and is unquantifiable, and it was only slightly moving as Quicksilver gained speed.

Number 4, Tho quicksilver has different run speeds his perception speed was what was beat by jean here. In DOFP QS froze bullets without moving, and jean was able to surprise him and overcome this perception style time freeze. His perception was active and Jean beat it.

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Jean isn't a glass cannon, at the end of the movie she went full non-caporal fire bird. She incinerated her body and lived as a energy being.

She was seen at the end of DOFP when Wolverine came back from the future/past just kicking it with the x-men, so she can seemingly reform her body.

_----------

OT: I think Fox Phoenix threads should be separated into the physical 'avatar' of the Phoenix, and the 'fully realized' Phoenix.

Superman can destroy the Avatar(if he gets a hit in) but he cannot destroy a fully realized Phoenix.

@death4bunnies:

Thanks for this video

1) I always said the lightning was statued

2) There's really no reason to believe that the bullet would behave differently.

4) I wasn't saying the debris was subject to gravity , but the falling people were. Looking at the initial time stop Scott + Storm are actively falling slowly

3) The debris being blown was from from her initial TK explosion (because it's all moving outward) given the amount of damage (a large hole in the side of the house) is still should be miles below actual lightning given the force behind it.

4) And yeah, I always agreed that she surprised him

5) Also for the record, I agreed that Jean would win, but not by statuing him because based on this scene she can't.

@death4bunnies:

Sure, Beast has created some interesting tech

But, I hardly believe that he was able to pull the trigger faster in between the point a bolt was fired, to its current position of when it almost touched Jean.

Which either deduces that Beast has some QS level finger reflexe's

Or as I was implying earlier, that the bolt itself is slow or unquantifiable based on the inconsistencies.

And even with Flash and Superman flashtime scene , you can't get a good measure on that speed either because the speed force lightning behaves differently + other things hard to measure. So I've never bothered quantifying it. The only thing that you can measure is perhaps their explosive moments implying that they had a high level of control in their accelerated perception (indicated by Supes making eye contact + turning his head)

And yeah you can post the stills of Cyclops and Storm falling, but even panning around it shows the distance between their bodies becoming closer and closer as a result from falling on her. In fact we are presented with two instances of them falling.

One from the back during the initial time stop, and then one from the front as Cyclops falls closer and closer to her.

And also. When in accelerated perception QS has often utilized super speed in that accelerated perception which happened during the mansion scene, and also during his fight with Apoc. That wasn'the the case in this specific scenario, it was more jogger paced.

"But yes that is a weak excuse , if he did not react to bullet he did not react to it."

If Wonderwoman can react to bullets, I'm pretty certain Superman can considering he was able to perceive the flash.

Clearly you're not comprehending any of the Superman explanations, so i'll just stop before you hurt yourself.

"FICTION BULLETS CREATED BY SUPER GENIUS BEAST, Beast is so smart that he created spacecraft in the 60s , and his spacecraft is so advanced that we could no replicate that today,"

Also again (you didn't watch the movie) instead you're regurgitating other poster's arguments instead of forming you own AFTER watching the movie.

Beast made specific modifications over the years that allowed it to reach space that was even stated so in the movie( you would know if you watched it) The movie takes place in the 90s, by that time, traveling to orbit is pretty achievable. Other than stealth tech, what other notable tech does the X-jet have besides the Cerebro interface? and i'm referring to ballistics.

"No, you are wrong in dark phoenix he mvoes at his top speed, at his fastest . his preception is always on the same speed."

No he didn't move at his top speeds, in X Men apocalypse in the mansion scene he utilized Superspeed (blurring speeds) while he was already in an accelerated perception, he did nothing of the sort in this scene.

You jumped straight to the bullets since they're hard to measure but failed to address/outright ignored that:

Beast pulled the trigger faster than the lightning: in between the point a bolt was fired, to its current position of when it almost touched Jean about when it was fired (the speed is was going suggest that beast has QS level trigger fingers , or as stated the entire scene cannot be adequately measured,

And the people still actively falling+ the outward moving debris. Which suggest that falling people can statue lightning

Given that people were still actively falling + the bullet still moving, you can still scale them proportionately to infer that there's a good chance that bullets were moving around Mach 3 at most.

So now your're suggesting that mass falling under influence o gravity + outward moving debris are relativistic?

another inconsistency suggest Storm's lightning behaves differently.

Also, if you're going to rely on calcs from battle vs wiki, you ought to look into how they scale characters because very often their calcs + classifications arn't accuratel/ reliable.

Also, just to prove my point Beast did in fact shoot the bullet after Storm fired her bolt meaning that it does not behave like regular lightning, and not nearly as fast.

Observing the frames in sequence from left to right then down

1) Storm shoots her lightning bolt in normal time

2) In normal time the bolt gets even further

3) in frame 3 time is beginning to slow down, observe Beast in frame 3, he's still aiming, meaning the bullet has not been fired, yet the lightning bolt has., because he is still positioning himself for the shot

4) in frame 4, time is slowed down, and Beast has taken the shot based on his changed position,

This infers that 1) Beast can move his body and pull the trigger before the lightning can react

or 2, that Storm's lightning does not behave nearly as fast as real lightning. Beast isn't a speedster

so i'll let you all draw the logical conclusion based on these images.

@eredin12: Ths pretty much sums everything up

and btw, yes ppl were actually falling (just toggle video that death4bunnies posted from 0:00-0:01) of when the camera is facing the back of Storm and Cyclop's bodies, it's clear as day, please don't pretend you are blind because now its getting embarrassing)

and it was an outward TK explosion that resumes normal once the scene returns to real time. its pretty obvious the debris is moving outward

you keep moving the goal post.

I already addressed your points, and my response below pretty much sums everything up, the images are in sequence.

Also, just to prove my point Beast did in fact shoot the bullet after Storm fired her bolt meaning that it does not behave like regular lightning, and not nearly as fast.

Observing the frames in sequence from left to right then down

1) Storm shoots her lightning bolt in normal time

2) In normal time the bolt gets even further

3) in frame 3 time is beginning to slow down, observe Beast in frame 3, he's still aiming, meaning the bullet has not been fired, yet the lightning bolt has., because he is still positioning himself for the shot

4) in frame 4, time is slowed down, and Beast has taken the shot based on his changed position,

This infers that 1) Beast can move his body and pull the trigger before the lightning can react

or 2, that Storm's lightning does not behave nearly as fast as real lightning. Beast isn't a speedster

so i'll let you all draw the logical conclusion based on these images.

Also just to clarify, a good example of PIS is when:

Quicksilver is not using his accelerated speed while in his accelerated perception state against Apocalypse when he caught his foot rf Jean, despite the fat that he's done in all of his other appearances (kitchen scene from DoFP, Mansion and knocking Apoc back and forth in X-men Apocalypse)

Notthe straws you're trying to grasp.

Jean is much better in every way.

"God example of PiS is superman scene in JL, i mena dont lowball."

Don't understand how its PIS, i'm not the one claiming he can statue lightning.

"QS.him runing at blur speed is just camera skiping some moments of his slow-motion "

False, from 0:33-0:38 he utilized blurring speeds while everything else is frozen, there is no sudden time jump to compensate for the time he used for blurring speeds. Even the calc vid for the feat, they make note that he can utilize blurring speeds in time stop mode. Observe the video below

and how is lightning irrelevant? Because I pointed out the inconsistencies its now irrelevant?

Before the argument was "QS can statue lightning" but since I pointed out that it behaves different with visual evidence + video + analysis its now irrelevant?

Also why was QS clocked moving at different speeds in all of his appearances by?

You can't just change the argument now just to fit your view

Again, observe the video 0:33-0:38.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMp_5HtO-aE

"No, they were not, on 001 they where statue, the only camera moves up"

Look again, the camera's not moving, Scott and Storm are falling slowly

Do you know what is embarrassing? When you said that breast shots gun before lightning CANREACT"

Wrong gain, I said Beast was able to position his body, aim, and shoot the bullet after the bolt was fired from Storm's hand, but before the lightning bolt actually reached Jean.

Look again, Debris moving + Scott and Storm falling slowly.

Its not skipping scenes, because the items debris/elements in the scene are slowly moving at constant rate, If it were just skipping scenes everything else would have a sudden burst of speed during the accelerated running, that is not the case, there is no way you can misinterpret that.

I already addressed your current points. We're talking about Fox not DMC 3. DMC 3 came out 14 years ago. Visual effects are MUCH better now, try again. Dark Phoenix came out in 2019not 2005.

@eredin12 said:

@x_insignia1:

"Look again, Debris moving + Scott and Storm falling slowly."

Like i said Debris moving is becase of Jena TK exsplosion, same is how WW and Arthur move in JL when Superan threw them, same is here.

As for Scot and stom falling, i see now what you mean, that is writing mistake and it should be ignored becase for one we see that Best is complete statue and has no idea what is happening it makes no sense that they are falling at normal speed while he is a statue or while storm lighting is statue, even if you think it is only as fast s bullets or even arrow it makes no sense for them to fall while thigns like this are statue, it makes no sense for them to fall while Beast and lighting is statue.

Same is how here.

https://gfycat.com/rigidspottedasiansmallclawedotter-devil-may-cry-3-dantes-awakening-video-game

rain falls at normal speed whole supesronic bullets move in slow motion, RAIN LOOKS MUCH FASTER, that is just writing mistake.

Or here in FOX

Normal thug moves at speed comperable to bullet.

that is just writing mistake.

I guess those were some slow bullets then, just like slow lightning. Basically what i've gathered from you is that every instance I point out is a writing mistake according to you.

So I guess we should just say the scene with QS is a writing mistake since it doesn't fit your view?

Doesn't work like that....Again, i'm not arguing that JL statues QS or Jean, you're the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

I already addressed the writing DMC 3 instance.

The scene with QS already has moments that contradicts the lightning multiple, way more than Wolvrine.

You have: moving debris moving bodies, moving bullets plus Beast's reactions, That's 4 instances that outweighs the lightning, the thing with Beast is that, that is something that achieved in normal time that transitioned into slowed down time.

@eredin12:

You're using DoFP, i'm talking about the APOC mansion scene. it was clearly meant to reveal his upper limits/high speeds since he was pushing himself even harder. The scene clearly depicts Superspeed in slowed down time because he's pushing himself even further, i'm pretty sure anyone else here will agree, please tag them, I really want you to.

You're comparing DMC 3 graphics to Dark Phoenix they're 15 years apart, I really don't see how its relevant given that DIRECTORS ARE MUCH MORE ADAMANT about those details now to deliver more quality scenes.

I'm boring you? guess that's what happens when you call everything that I call attention to a writing mistake.

I already addressed that it was TK explosion that resumed its normal pace and trajectory once time resumed, maybe if you watched the movie would know that?

Also X men Origin and Dark Phoenix are 10 years apart, lets try to stay current.

Also wolverine is pretty fast, not that far off that he could match deadpool, he's reacted to fast moving projectiles before.

Everything I posted points that QS can achieve higher level of speeds, not my fault that you're in denial.

I'm starting to think there is an agenda here. I heard the film was trash, went to see it. A rock solid C+ to B-. It was better than black panther, antman and both the first Thor films.

And the action scene on the train with magneto shanking EVERYBODY was one of the hardest fights scenes in comicbook films I've seen.

Even Cyclops was putting in work.

@eredin12:

Everything I point out is a writing mistake according to you, and you seem to be the only person that thinks that.

You clearly can't comprehends that speedsters have varying perceptions + speeds

Arthur and Wonder Woman were thrown by Superman, they weren't in free fall. I don't even know why you're bringing them up, neither of them are faster than QS

You're talking points and entire argument have become moot.

You're posting VFX examples that were created 10-20 years ago.

I've already made my points, once you find something relevant to discuss instead of talking in circles, feel free to tag me.

@eredin12:

A lot of your arguments a really all over the place, I never said people fall faster than mach bullets. They were moving many times slower than the bullets. However, they were still moving.

Also not sure why you inserted the analogy of Nazis and WWII, that's pretty asinine, please stay on track

I don't understand what you're trying to prove with the debris. I stated that the force behind the the explosion would not warrent the debris be moving so much during a time stop. The explosion in APOC was many times over the explosion in Dark Phoenix. in Apoc, the explosion decimated a mansion, the force behind it was a combusted reaction that was caused by Havok striking mechanical/electrical elements with his concussive blast. Jean's explosion blew a hole into the side of a small residential home. The explosions packed different forces + different velocities. It's called physics.

For example: A 15KT nuke detonates faster than lets say, a ton of TNT. They're not comparable because the nuke is many magnitude over. Therefore, the outward debris would be moving at different velocities.

Regarding the Ares and Wonderwoman explosion. The person who wrote the respect thread said it was PIS, not the directors. Ares is a magical God. Im sure his suit would be fine given that he's a magical being. They do not follow conventional physics, so it's not much of a stretch at all.

Spite, Jean takes this handly, her perceptive output was enough developed or advanced, she could catch Quicksilver who has shown speeds far above DCEU Flash and Superman too ofc.

He could take billions

@eredin12:

And as as I stated, Storm''s lightning does not react normally. For one we know that lightning move's differently through clouds, metal ect. There's no way for you to accurately measure it when its origining from a mutant, and moving THROUGH that mutant.

Fyi, Jean''s tk isn't magic. It's tied to her biology.

Mutant powers and magic powers in the movie verses are not the same. One is more adherent to physics while the others works through enchantments + different laws.

By your logic, the entire scene with Jean and QS is unquantifiable.

Also, it seems that others are under the impression that QS can change the speed of his perception + utilize superspeed in Quicksilver time as well. All of the notable calcs that place him at his current speed tier, take that into account.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/fox-quicksilvers-speed-2029209/#js-message-7

They're not magic. Mutants arn't magical beings, they're products of evolution.

Just because you can't handle the facts, does not mean you need to get upset. Not my fault she can't statue Superman based on the evidence.

@eredin12:

I meant to tag you, I deleted it by accident as I was typing to you.

Anyway, you're inserting headcanon now, not all tk is magic, that's a fact.

Moving on, yeah she reacted to a very slow Quicksilver that was caught by surprise,it's great that I pointed that out earlier. So when still can't statue Supes.