DCEU Superman (BladeOfFury) vs EMH Thor (Maestromage)

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maestromage

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DCEU Superman vs EMH Thor

No Caption Provided

Stipulations:

  • Morals on, In character
  • Random Encounter
  • Standard Gear
  • Thor is EoS and Superman is Current
  • Win by KO Death or Incapacitation.

CAV Rules

  • This is a CAV so don't comment on who you think wins the fight or anything like that
  • At the end of the debate, vote for who you think made the better arguments, not which character you think wins
  • Give reasons for why you think they debated better
  • If you want to be tagged when the debate is over, just say "Tag for votes" (or T4V).

Battle takes place here:

ignore the ship
ignore the ship

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maestromage

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BladeOfFury

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#3 BladeOfFury  Online

@maestromage: Nice, I'm going to look at this after my mid terms.

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defiant_will

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taep

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JaylinFreeman

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TAEP

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Ready_4_Madness

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Oh boy

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ShadowRazer24

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#7 ShadowRazer24  Online
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TakenStew22

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Battle123axe

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ganon15

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So it's come to this...

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deactivated-5e37510e25a10

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TheWatcherKing

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Tag after the Thor posts

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StormShadow_X

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Tag?

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Crater_Maker

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#14  Edited By Crater_Maker

What if I don’t want to ignore the ship?

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incursion2

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T4v

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GateOfBabylon

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Wow. TAEP.

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OnlyOneEmpereor

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T4V

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maestromage

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@bladeoffury: The time has come, do you wanna open this up or shall I?

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BladeOfFury

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#19 BladeOfFury  Online

@maestromage: Gonna write my last exam in 20 minutes, I can open after that

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maestromage

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deactivated-5e37510e25a10

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TAEP

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BladeOfFury

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#22 BladeOfFury  Online

@maestromage: Alright, this will be a glorious battle!

JK, Superman stomps.

No Caption Provided

I'll use the traditional method in this one.

Strength

Clark significantly outclasses Thor in this aspect. Here is him casually carrying a 7500 ton building:

No Caption Provided

And here is Hulk (someone who is at least as strong as Thor) shaking and yelling while he sets down a lighter weight:

No Caption Provided

And here is Red Hulk (someone stronger than Hulk) grunting while slowly tipping the statue of liberty over (225 tons by itself but there is also the pedestal, so let's double it to 450 tons):

No Caption Provided

Legend says he's still trying to lift it till this day.

As you can see, Superman can casually carry weights over 15 times heavier than the weights Thor's superiors cannot. If it comes to a struggle, Clark can overpower Thor with one hand. Effortlessly.

Speed

Another area in which Thor can't compete. Here is Superman having an entire fight with Flash while Wonder Woman (a casual bullet-timer) seems frozen in mid-air:

No Caption Provided

And here is Thor getting tagged by Hulk left and right.

Here is Thor getting outmaneuvered by Red Hulk:

No Caption Provided

And here is Hulk getting danced around by a street-leveler:

No Caption Provided

Thor is faster than the Hulks, but not by a very significant amount, as you can see in his performance against them. The speed gap between him and Clark is massive, and he is never landing a finger on his opponent.

What you will say is that Thor will tag Clark with lightning, but even that's questionable, due to the idea that fictional lightning ≠ natural lightning. To my memory, Thor's lightning never visually traveled as fast as Clark can, so unless my memory failed me, you will have to prove that the default assumption should be that Thor's lightning is just as fast as natural lightning.

Superman's output vs Thor's durability

All I need to do is show that Clark can hurt Thor at least a little, in which case he will eventually be able to put Thor down due to the speed advantage.

Well, the World Engine was durable to remain unscathed after its landing, which created a shockwave that dwarfed a mountain and spread for thousands of feet, displacing thousands of tons of water...

No Caption Provided

and Clark destroyed it with a single bullrush:

No Caption Provided

What makes this especially impressive is that Clark was weakened by the Kryptonian atmosphere surrounding the machine, as well as the fact that his bullrush had to overpower the engine's gravity beam, which is ridiculously powerful:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

(the 2nd is a vision Zod showed Clark, but it's probable that it was realistic, considering how realistic everything else was)

Now it's your turn to prove that Thor will sustain 0 damage from an attack this powerful.

Conclusion

  • Clark is way stronger, being able to lift weights 15 times heavier than the weights Thor's superiors cannot
  • Clark is way faster, fighting so fast that casual bullet-timers seem to be frozen in comparison, while Thor is street-level in this category. It's even questionable if Thor can tag Clark with lightning.
  • Clark will win if he can hurt Thor even a little, which he probably can, being able to (in a weakened state and resisting an immensely powerful gravity beam) one-shot a giant machine that was unscathed after landing so hard that the generated shockwave displaced thousands of tons of water.

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BladeOfFury

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deactivated-5e37510e25a10

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BladeOfFury

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#25 BladeOfFury  Online
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Bayman007

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#26 Bayman007  Online

Taep. Good luck

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Oh boy

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Lan_Fan

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Bruh...

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BladeOfFury

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#29 BladeOfFury  Online
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ourmanuel

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How can 1 man fit that much bait into a few paragraphs?

TAEP

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maestromage

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@bladeoffury: I did yeah. I've started on my post so it should be up in a few days.

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BladeOfFury

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#33 BladeOfFury  Online
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Oh this is interesting.

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EMH Thor | The Prince of Asgard

No Caption Provided

"I am Thor The Thunderer, Son of Odin, Prince of Asgard, but today above all things, I am an Avenger, and this world is under my protection!"

The Thunderer I - A Prince's Strength

Where to being with this. The way you debate against EMH makes it seem like you must have seen the show, which is why I find it so strange that you take what are clearly low-showings for characters and parade them around as if this is at all their consistent level. All the while showing off what is (from memory) Clark's best straight strength feat by far. I don't have any issues with Clark's feat here but acting as if those two singular feats are consistent for the Hulks is just inane. I'd also point out you seemingly couldn't even find a low showing for Thor and had to use one for other characters, but I'm getting off-topic.

And here is Hulk (someone who is at least as strong as Thor) shaking and yelling while he sets down a lighter weight:

Him shaking and yelling doesn't mean he's necessarily struggling to lift it. It could just as easily be down to the fact that he was trying to put it down lightly, something naturally difficult for a character renowned for his immense rage. This also doesn't invalidate all his other better feats but we'll come back to those.

And here is Red Hulk (someone stronger than Hulk) grunting while slowly tipping the statue of liberty over (225 tons by itself but there is also the pedestal, so let's double it to 450 tons):

For one, I'd say that struggling to lift something isn't always done to show a character's limit, but to be honest, this isn't the low showing you made it out to be.

Loading Video...

Rulk and Thor are mid-fight and he just jumps over, lifts up the Statue of Liberty in a few seconds with no notable issues before Thor throws Mjolnir and sends him flying. It's no amazing feat but I'm failing to see how this represents his upper limit. I have another feat to show that demonstrates what I mentioned earlier.

Loading Video...

(Season 1 Episode 13: Gamma World Part 2)

In this feat, we see Hulk "struggle" to life a small building sized object... before he throws it into space. This example shows off both that struggling doesn't always mean it's their limit (writers often do this just to add tension) and is also a good showing of why the feats you showed for Hulk and Rulk aren't their consistent level. That said, one feat doesn't mean consistency, so I'll show a few more examples of strength feats in EMH.

Hulk casually throwing over the large building sized Giant-Man:

Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required
Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required

We've got Frost Giants casually throwing huge building-sized boulders:

Season 1 Episode 3: The Mighty Thor
Season 1 Episode 3: The Mighty Thor

Giant-Man (someone weaker than Thor) lifts up a massive cargo ship and then just throws it:

Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2
Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2

And possibly his most famous feat from the show; Thor noticeably slows down a massive part of Manhattan after Graviton levitated it into the air (full-size example).

Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2
Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2

Now obviously he didn't lift it or completely stop it (though Hulk later overpowered Graviton with some effort), but changing the momentum of an object this size in any noticeable way is still insanely better than the feat you showed for Superman.

I'd keep going but I think I've made my point pretty clear. The feats you showed for the Hulks are pretty clear low-end feats as there are plenty of strength feats from characters of that tier that are hilariously above those feats. Additionally, comparing the better feats of EMH characters to Clark's best(?) feat, and it's pretty clear that Thor is notably stronger than him.

The Thunderer II - Asgardian Resilience

I'm just going to be honest with how I feel about the World Engine feat; it's an outlier. Looking closer at its landing, we see the force of it actually collapses part of the small mountain in the background. Factoring in the fact that Clark was weakened and this is easily a mountain level+ feat. Having gone back and rewatched all of his big fights I feel confident in saying that neither Clark nor anyone else in his tier regularly performs feats even close to this in any regard. Heck, one of Clark's best durability feats (if not his best) would be crashing through the top of a small mountain and tanking it. Which in comparison with the World Engine feat would mean he could literally one-shot himself, which clearly isn't the case. If you disagree, then I challenge you to show some other feats from characters in Clark's tier that match this, because I'm not aware of any.

That said, even if this were Clark's consistent level I'd still say that it's not enough to put down Thor easily, and given that it isn't I think it would be fair to say that Clark putting down Thor in any reasonable amount of time is naught but a pipe dream. To prove this point I'm going to show Thor tanking attacks from a few characters who hit harder than Clark does, starting with the frost giants:

Frost Giants in EMH, who truly are giant, are capable of casually tossing building-sized rocks, one-shotting and throwing large buildings, and in a clash with Thor their individual strikes cause shockwaves powerful enough to wipe out rows of houses:

Season 1 Episode 3: Thor the Mighty
Season 1 Episode 3: Thor the Mighty

These are feats Clark cannot replicate consistently. Despite their impressive strength, Thor tanks a large number of attacks from them over the course of this episode, including some piercing attacks, without showing signs of being too badly injured (he even goes on to have a full fight against Loki immediately after this). There are too many instances for me to put in gifs so I'll just show the scene so you can judge yourself.

Loading Video...

Next, we move onto Vision. Though Vision himself is somewhat lacking in clear cut striking feats, the feat I'll be mentioning doesn't relate to his normal striking. In the Episode, Emperor Stark, Vision dropped himself from above the planet onto a mind-controlled Thor after increasing his mass to 500 tonnes. The effect was, well, I'll let you see for yourself:

Season 2 Episode 19: Emperor Stark
Season 2 Episode 19: Emperor Stark

Simply the impact of him hitting Thor created a huge shockwave that dispersed the nearby clouds, and their falling form melts the snow off of all the nearby trees just by getting close. When they actually hit the ground they make a huge crater that also travels decently deep. Yet, after taking this attack head-on, the next we see of Thor he is standing over Vision, seemingly about to deliver a finishing blow, and also seemingly unscathed from his fierce attack (Full scene for clarity). That's not to suggest that he no-sold the attack, but it's clear that something of this calibre isn't enough to do any significant damage to the Prince of Thunder. The shot at the end also gives a clearer shot of the size of the crater Vision made, as it was easily the size of a decent-sized building.

The last character I'm going to show Thor taking hits from would be Hulk, who has no shortage of impressive feats. For a simple clear cut striking feat I'll go with this particular feat from the fight against Graviton:

Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2
Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2

In this feat, Hulk creates a huge shockwave after striking the ground that sends shipping crates flying over a solid city-block sized area. As for Thor himself, he has demonstrated the ability to tank attacks from the green giant on a few occasions, such as when they briefly fought in Episode 8:

Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required
Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required

Thor goes onto tank more attacks from him in the episode, and he has tanked attacks from Hulk and other comparable characters like Rulk on many other occasions.

Overall, Thor has consistently displayed the ability to continue fighting after attacks notably more powerful than what Clark is capable of dishing out. If you're not convinced by what I've shown here then I can go on to show more feats on this level and higher, as this is perfectly consistent for EMH Thor.

The Thunderer III - The Speed of Lightning

I think most people would agree that Thor doesn't operate on the same level of speed that Clark does, but in this section, I'm going to go over why the gap between the two is nowhere near what you have made it out to be.

I'll ignore the fact that you've yet again gone for Clark's best feat in a category because I do agree that he is definitely faster than Diana. That said, I don't think he's faster to the extent that you've argued. Let's look at the scene in closer detail.

Loading Video...

The main reason why I don't think this speed feat is as good as others do is due to what happened immediately before he "statues" Diana; he throws her. This may not seem significant but what it means is that she wasn't really in a position to be moving in the first place. Initially, Clark isn't actually moving that much faster than Diana visually, until he jumps. Immediately after he jumps however she flies off-screen. So he didn't actually "statue" her for more than a few seconds and even then she wasn't in much of a position to move in the first place. Diana not being that much slower than Clark is also backed up by her tagging him later in this same fight, her moving to grab her sword in Barry's slowed down perception of the world and her keeping up with Doomsday in BvS. So like I said, I do think Clark is faster than her, but not to the insane extent that people often claim.

With that out of the way, it's time to demonstrate why EMH Thor isn't as slow as you'd have me believe. I'm basically going to ignore what you said about Thor given that you yourself admitted that you think Thor is faster than the Hulks:

Thor is faster than the Hulks, but not by a very significant amount

Which makes it hard to see anything you showed as anything other than an attempt to lowball. That and the fact that Hulk getting danced around could be chalked up to both skill and the fact that he didn't really want to fight the Shield Agents in the first place (he literally got captured in the episode because he saved them instead of running away). So let's get into this.

I'd like to start out by saying that Thor should be a match for Clark in flight speed, given his and others' ability to fly into space in seconds. In terms of a more combat-related showing, he was able to dodge Tony's repulsor blasts whilst withstanding a continuous blast from Captain Marvel:

Season 2 Episode 17: Ultron Unlimited
Season 2 Episode 17: Ultron Unlimited

(Side Note: Yes this was actually a Synthezoid made by Ultron, but the Synthezoids were stated to have all the powers abilities and skills of the originals so the scaling should still work). In a weaker armour, Tony's repulsors were shown to be visually faster than missiles more than once, and Thor has also casually dodged them at close range when not really trying to fight Tony (the suit was being controlled by Ultron).

That being said, Thor isn't a character who really abuses speed like Superman or Flash. But given his flight speed and the fact that he's clearly not supposed to be slow, I don't think it's too unreasonable to say that he'll eventually tag Clark, especially given that Clark's attacks won't really be doing much damage at all to Thor. Fortunately for Thor, it needn't come to that, as he has an alternative through his lightning.

What you will say is that Thor will tag Clark with lightning, but even that's questionable, due to the idea that fictional lightning ≠ natural lightning. To my memory, Thor's lightning never visually traveled as fast as Clark can, so unless my memory failed me, you will have to prove that the default assumption should be that Thor's lightning is just as fast as natural lightning.

Thor is frequently seen summoning an actual storm and then calling down lightning from said storm, so I see no reason why it wouldn't be as fast as normal lightning. However, I'm sure you won't be satisfied unless I show an actual feat so here you go:

Season 2 Episode 12: Secret Invasion
Season 2 Episode 12: Secret Invasion

In the above feat Thor's lightning arcs around the world to destroy several satellites that were going to kill everyone on the planet. Assuming these satellites are in Geosynchronous Orbit and using the given time-frame of about 10 seconds, this would make Thor's lightning several thousand times faster than sound. I wouldn't be surprised if you said this isn't consistent (which would be ironic) but Thor's lightning being this fast doesn't actually raise any issues. There haven't been any instances of his lightning failing to do something speed-wise, and the only time I can remember anyone reacting to them would be Loki in episode 3, which is an outlier even if they're only the usual Mach 286. Regardless, even if it's only as fast as normal lightning, it's still far beyond Clark's ability to react to. The other important thing to note about this feat is that Thor was able to accurately hit satellites that he couldn't see, meaning that Thor is capable of hitting targets without needing to actually see them. The last notable thing to mention is that this attack was more or less instant. There was no long windup required which makes it easy for him to uses them mid-fight, and as I'll show in the next section, even Thor's casual attacks are too much for Clark to tank.

The Thunderer IV - The Thunder

You didn't even post any durability feats in your opener due to your insistence that he'll never get tagged. That said, it matters little because even if you did show feats for Clark it wouldn't change the fact that Thor hits significantly harder in all areas than anyone Clark has taken hits from.

I've already shown Thor's joint feat with a frost giant which already demonstrates better striking than characters like Nam-Ek and Faora who have rocked Clark with their strikes, but let's take it a step further. I'm going to do my best to show off why Thor's damage output is significantly above what Clark has shown himself to be able to take.

Let's go back to giant man, and a feat I showed off in the first section of this post:

Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2
Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2

Where he throws a massive cargo ship a decent distance onto Graviton. Again, this is a feat I can't see Clark or anyone comparable to him doing. The only similar feat I can think of would be Nam-Ek's train feat, which clearly isn't anywhere near as good. This is significant as Giant-Man isn't even on Thor's level physically, as I will go on to show.

Season 1 Episode 25: Ultron 5
Season 1 Episode 25: Ultron 5

In the above feat, we see that Ultron-5 is capable of taking punches from Giant-Man, clearly demonstrating his impressive durability. When Ultron faced off against Thor, however, the situation was quite different. In his fight against Ultron-6 the very next episode, a pissed off Thor demonstrated the ability to inflict what would be lethal damage (if the one on the receiving end wasn't a self-repairing robot) to Ultron on

Three

No Caption Provided

Separate

No Caption Provided

Occasions

No Caption Provided

Any single one of those hits would be fatal to someone with "normal" biology and without a crazy healing factor. The point I'm making here is that a serious Thor is clearly capable of effectively one-shotting someone more durable than Clark, so landing even a single attack will end the fight. I haven't even mentioned the power of Thor's lightning, which he can summon with a simple gesture. Though he often charges up for his big attacks, it's not always necessary as he has summoned powerful lightning without much build-up in some instances. One such example would be when Thor arrived in the fight against Galactus in the Season 2 Finale:

Season 2 Episode 26: Avengers Assemble
Season 2 Episode 26: Avengers Assemble

Despite only just arriving, Thor summons lightning powerful to bring Galactus to his knees, as well as creating a storm that seemingly covered the entire city. And before you say that EMH Galactus is featless, seconds before the above feat he was no-selling attacks from War Machine and Captain Marvel, both of whom should be at least comparable to Iron Man (especially Carol given that she was amped after absorbing an attack from Galactus himself). Iron Man has no shortage of good feats, such as when he blasted a huge creature that was covering all of Liberty Island:

Season 1 Episode 9: Living Legend
Season 1 Episode 9: Living Legend

Now Tony had specifically attuned his Unibeam (as it previously been ineffective on this creature) but this is still an incredible display of his power. The power of a character far weaker than Thor.

Overall, it would be no exaggeration to say that any attack from Thor will just one-shot Clark. He has done similar to characters more durable than Clark with Mjolnir strikes and even uncharged lightning attacks are far more potent than what Clark has shown himself able to tank.

Conclusion

Thor is on a completely different tier to Clark in everything barring speed, in which the gap isn't so large that Thor can't tag him. he has the feats to one-shot Clark and can tank all of his attacks without sustaining anything notable damage.

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maestromage

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JaylinFreeman

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@maestromage: Amazing post dude! Probably one of the best I seen in a long time!!

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BladeOfFury

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#40 BladeOfFury  Online
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#41  Edited By BladeOfFury  Online
No Caption Provided

Where to being with this. The way you debate against EMH makes it seem like you must have seen the show,

I've seen it many years ago, so it's possible that I don't remember some key evidence that would turn this battle in Thor's favor. You haven't brought it up just yet, however.

So let's get to it.

Strength

All the while showing off what is (from memory) Clark's best straight strength feat by far.

No, a better feat is dominating Steppenwolf, who wrecked Aquaman underwater, who lifted that submarine. Or flying through the World Engine's gravity beam. I wanted to use something simpler that involves no scaling, so I went with the building feat.

I would also like to mention that there is nothing wrong with using characters' best feats, as long as those feats aren't outliers. You're fine with the building feat so I won't discuss this here.

I don't have any issues with Clark's feat here but acting as if those two singular feats are consistent for the Hulks is just inane. I'd also point out you seemingly couldn't even find a low showing for Thor and had to use one for other characters, but I'm getting off-topic.

I can easily post all those times when Thor failed to best Hulk physically - are those the showings you're looking for? The way I see it, if I show that Clark is superior to Thor's superiors, that's even better than establishing Clark's superiority to Thor himself.

Anyway...

Hulk

Him shaking and yelling doesn't mean he's necessarily struggling to lift it

Then what does shaking and yelling mean?

It cannot be Hulk's "angry look," as seconds before the feat in question, he moved a boulder in a very casual manner:

No Caption Provided

Completely different from the struggle that followed:

No Caption Provided

Here is the video so you can hear the yelling during the feat and the silence preceding it. Please notice that all signs of struggle cease to exist as soon as Hulk sets the weight down, with them being replaced by exhaustion.

It could just as easily be down to the fact that he was trying to put it down lightly, something naturally difficult for a character renowned for his immense rage.

That makes no sense. Hulk having trouble to put the aircraft down lightly because of his rage means that he might put it down roughly. It doesn't mean that his body will shake, he will yell, and look exhausted afterwards, which clearly happened because of the weight itself, not the fact that he was careful with it.

This also doesn't invalidate all his other better feats but we'll come back to those.

It contradicts his other better feats.

Rulk

No Caption Provided

I'd say that struggling to lift something isn't always done to show a character's limit

Indeed, it is sometimes done for the sake of the plot or to add tension during heroic deeds, but Red Hulk is a villain, and the plot would be completely unaffected by his success or failure in lifting the statue.

this isn't the low showing you made it out to be. Rulk and Thor are mid-fight and he just jumps over, lifts up the Statue of Liberty in a few seconds with no notable issues before Thor throws Mjolnir and sends him flying. It's no amazing feat but I'm failing to see how this represents his upper limit.

Link

Rulk was obviously trying to use the statue against Thor, and his inability to do so in 8 seconds suggests that he was approaching his limit. In fact, at 1:17, you can see that Rulk couldn't make any more progress. There is also the fact that Rulk did have notable issues, in the form of shaking and yelling.

I have another feat to show that demonstrates what I mentioned earlier

In this feat, we see Hulk "struggle" to life a small building sized object... before he throws it into space. This example shows off both that struggling doesn't always mean it's their limit (writers often do this just to add tension) and is also a good showing of why the feats you showed for Hulk and Rulk aren't their consistent level.

This is a feat in which 2 facts contradict each other:

  • Fact 1: struggling to lift a weight means that your limit is near
  • Fact 2: throwing a weight into space means that your limit isn't near

Hulk did both, so my question to you is: why disqualify the first fact instead of the second? Or even better, why disqualify any fact at all instead of the feat itself, which clearly makes no sense?

For the same reason, this feat doesn't disprove the showings I provided for Hulk and Rulk. The first part of the feat actually supports those showings while the second half contradicts them, which is why it can't be used as evidence for either side.

Other feats

Hulk casually throwing over the large building sized Giant-Man:

Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required
Season 1 Episode 8: Some Assembly Required

Giant Man's size varied drastically from moment to moment. If we say that he was 15 times taller than Hulk, for instance, he would be about 920 tons:

Hulk is about 2.5 meters, which makes Pym 38 meters tall, about 21 times taller than an average man. Pym maintains the same proportions in giant form, and 21^3 is almost 9261, so Giant Man is 9,261 times heavier than an average man, who is about 90 kg. That turns out to be almost 920 tons of weight.

That would obviously be much less impressive than Clark's building feat. It might not even contradict the 500 ton lifting feats, since flipping someone is easier than lifting him, and the effort is required for a much shorter time-frame.

We've got Frost Giants casually throwing huge building-sized boulders:

Season 1 Episode 3: The Mighty Thor
Season 1 Episode 3: The Mighty Thor

The weight of those boulders may not be impressive at all. Two seconds before the above GIF, a boulder's height was shown to be similar to that of a human:

No Caption Provided

Going by this size, a boulder would only weigh about 10 tons:

If we put the boulder in a box, the box would be something along the lines of: 2.5 meters (length) x 1 meter (width) x 2 meters (height) = 5 cubic meters. Rock weighs 3 tons per cubic meter, so the boulder would be 15 tons if it was a rectangular prism. Its shape is uneven, however, with no material in its corners, which would make the boulder much lighter, likely around 10 tons.

So, the building Clark easily lifted is 750 times heavier, and the weights Hulk/Rulk struggled to lift are still 50 times heavier than the boulders.

Now, just like everything else, the boulders' size changes from scene to scene, but it probably makes the most sense to use the one above. This is because the alternative option is to figure out the boulders' size using the Frost Giants, whose size must be figured out from the people they walk by later in the episode, and even that size is wildly inconsistent. It's obviously much safer to see how boulders compare to humans directly, at the exact moment the giants are throwing those boulders. In other words, my method requires less "size scaling."

Giant-Man (someone weaker than Thor) lifts up a massive cargo ship and then just throws it:

Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2
Season 1 Episode 7: The Breakout Part 2

I'll use two methods here. We can either determine the ship's size using Giant Man, or determine it using the crater it landed in.

1. Determine the ship's weight using Giant Man's size - 30 tons

After performing the feat, Giant Man walked out of the water and stood next to his teammates:

No Caption Provided

He was about 3 meters tall when crouching, and doubled his height when standing up, making him 6 meters tall.

No Caption Provided

The ship's length is about 4 times longer than Giant Man's height, making the ship 24 meters long.

Now, the Maersk Triple E-class container ship is 400 meters long and 55 000 tonnes empty, making it 16 times longer than Giant Man's ship. Assuming that the two container ships have similar proportions, the Maersk is 16^3 times larger, which is 4,096. Dividing 55000 by 4096, we get the ship's weight of 15 tons. Let's double it to 30 tons to account for the cargo.

2. Determine the ship's weight using the crater it landed in - 3.5 tons

As you can see, the ship's length is about the same as the crater's depth:

No Caption Provided

And the crater's depth is about 5 times greater than Hulk's height:

No Caption Provided

This makes the ship 12.5 meters long, and applying the first method's weight calculation, the ship turns out to be 3.5 tons.

I was initially planning to take the average of the two methods, but the second method's result is so pathetic that I'll be nice and just take the better result of 30 tons. It still sucks though, since Hank didn't throw the boat very far. Giant Man even visibly struggled to do it, which probably makes this feat a low showing.

And possibly his most famous feat from the show; Thor noticeably slows down a massive part of Manhattan after Graviton levitated it into the air (full-size example).

Now obviously he didn't lift it or completely stop it (though Hulk later overpowered Graviton with some effort), but changing the momentum of an object this size in any noticeable way is still insanely better than the feat you showed for Superman.

Agreed, and it is also insanely better than any feat Thor (or anyone in EMH) ever performed, to such extent that pretty much everything contradicts it. The two 500-ton lifting feats I provided obviously contradict it, but so does Giant Man's feat of throwing the boat. In fact, any feat in which EMH high tiers struggled to move something contradicts it, because that something is millions of times lighter than the part of Manhattan that Thor slowed the fall of. Outlier.

I'd keep going but I think I've made my point pretty clear. The feats you showed for the Hulks are pretty clear low-end feats as there are plenty of strength feats from characters of that tier that are hilariously above those feats. Additionally, comparing the better feats of EMH characters to Clark's best(?) feat, and it's pretty clear that Thor is notably stronger than him.

So far, we have two 500-ton feats contradicting one trillion-ton feat, as well as a bunch of moderately impressive feats that don't come close to Superman's lifting strength.

Speed

I'll ignore the fact that you've yet again gone for Clark's best feat in a category

Good, because that fact is irrelevant.

because I do agree that he is definitely faster than Diana. That said, I don't think he's faster to the extent that you've argued. Let's look at the scene in closer detail.

The main reason why I don't think this speed feat is as good as others do is due to what happened immediately before he "statues" Diana; he throws her. This may not seem significant but what it means is that she wasn't really in a position to be moving in the first place. Initially, Clark isn't actually moving that much faster than Diana visually, until he jumps. Immediately after he jumps however she flies off-screen. So he didn't actually "statue" her for more than a few seconds and even then she wasn't in much of a position to move in the first place. Diana not being that much slower than Clark is also backed up by her tagging him later in this same fight, her moving to grab her sword in Barry's slowed down perception of the world and her keeping up with Doomsday in BvS. So like I said, I do think Clark is faster than her, but not to the insane extent that people often claim.

Sure, she's not in a comfortable position to move, but she should have still been able to demonstrate some signs of awareness in Clark's perception, if she was fast enough.

Anyway, that feat becomes much more impressive when you use it to scale from Clark's own travel speed. Flash was even with Clark in their final race:

No Caption Provided

For a speedster like Flash, travel speed is directly correlated with combat speed (it's how fast he can move parts of his body), and Clark proved his combat speed to be on par in the fight. Clark even reacted to Barry running in a straight line at the beginning of the fight, which was indisputably travel speed.

Kryptonians' travel speed is pretty ridiculous, as seen here where Zod takes Clark to space in 3 seconds. Specifically, they reached a satellite (even the lowest satellites have an altitude of 100 miles), which puts their travel speeds at Mach 150 at the lowest. I'm going to have mercy and not point out that you can see the planet curve from that perspective... for now.

With that out of the way, it's time to demonstrate why EMH Thor isn't as slow as you'd have me believe. I'm basically going to ignore what you said about Thor given that you yourself admitted that you think Thor is faster than the Hulks:

Which makes it hard to see anything you showed as anything other than an attempt to lowball.

... I don't see how Thor being faster than the Hulks changes the fact that he gets tagged by them in every single fight. A lot. He's faster, but clearly not by a very significant amount, and he consistently fails to outperform street-levelers like Black Widow when fighting him.

That and the fact that Hulk getting danced around could be chalked up to both skill

Skill and speed can be combined into one for these purposes, since the hit count is what we're looking at. Thor's combination of skill and speed is clearly inferior to Natasha's combination of skill and speed, so unless you think that a trained human can tag a vastly hypersonic character, neither can Thor.

and the fact that he didn't really want to fight the Shield Agents in the first place (he literally got captured in the episode because he saved them instead of running away).

Holding back only affects strength. There is no reason for Hulk to hold back his speed, since he clearly wanted to tag them (just not tag them too hard).

So let's get into this.

In terms of a more combat-related showing, he was able to dodge Tony's repulsor blasts whilst withstanding a continuous blast from Captain Marvel:

Pretty good reaction feat, but I'd like to let you establish the starting point here. How fast do you think Thor can hit? Arrow speed? The speed of sound? Bullet-speed? Mach 5? Please give me a number and we'll work from there.

That being said, Thor isn't a character who really abuses speed like Superman or Flash. But given his flight speed and the fact that he's clearly not supposed to be slow, I don't think it's too unreasonable to say that he'll eventually tag Clark

I definitely consider it unreasonable to say that Thor will tag someone with Mach 150+ combat speed, ever, but let's work up to that in later posts.

Lightning

Thor is frequently seen summoning an actual storm and then calling down lightning from said storm, so I see no reason why it wouldn't be as fast as normal lightning.

For the same reason, we can say that Thor's lightning is just as powerful as normal lightning, but we know that that's not the case, as Thor's lightning is much more powerful despite having the same origin. If Thor's lightning is completely different from natural lightning in terms of power, why can't it be different in terms of speed?

Besides, even if we assume that Thor's storm lightning is Mach 286, Clark can easily react due to his Mach 150+ combat speed and the massive distance the lightning bolt has to cover.

However, I'm sure you won't be satisfied unless I show an actual feat so here you go:

Season 2 Episode 12: Secret Invasion
Season 2 Episode 12: Secret Invasion

In the above feat Thor's lightning arcs around the world to destroy several satellites that were going to kill everyone on the planet. Assuming these satellites are in Geosynchronous Orbit and using the given time-frame of about 10 seconds, this would make Thor's lightning several thousand times faster than sound.

But... the lightning doesn't arc around the world. We know that those satellites are very short distances away from each other because we literally see them from a standstill position. This is probably a subsonic feat...

The only time I can remember anyone reacting to them would be Loki in episode 3, which is an outlier even if they're only the usual Mach 286.

That's if we assume that Thor's lightning is as fast as natural lightning, which we probably shouldn't in and of itself. A clear-cut anti-feat should have more weight than a baseless assumption about the mystical lightning of an Asgardian god, which we know behaves in ways natural lightning doesn't.

No Caption Provided

The other important thing to note about this feat is that Thor was able to accurately hit satellites that he couldn't see, meaning that Thor is capable of hitting targets without needing to actually see them.

We can see the satellites, so I'm pretty sure Thor can see them too.

Superman's output vs Thor's durability

I'm just going to be honest with how I feel about the World Engine feat; it's an outlier. Looking closer at its landing, we see the force of it actually collapses part of the small mountain in the background. Factoring in the fact that Clark was weakened and this is easily a mountain level+ feat.

Having gone back and rewatched all of his big fights I feel confident in saying that neither Clark nor anyone else in his tier regularly performs feats even close to this in any regard.

How does watching Clark's fights help you understand the consistency behind his feats?

Anyway, we got a double standard on our hands:

Heck, one of Clark's best durability feats (if not his best) would be crashing through the top of a small mountain and tanking it. Which in comparison with the World Engine feat would mean he could literally one-shot himself, which clearly isn't the case. If you disagree, then I challenge you to show some other feats from characters in Clark's tier that match this, because I'm not aware of any.

See, you're challenging me to show similar feats to the World Engine, and yet you wouldn't be able to accept this same challenge for Thor's Manhattan feat, which you still brought up:

And possibly his most famous feat from the show; Thor noticeably slows down a massive part of Manhattan

You also brought up that satellite feat for Thor's lightning:

In the above feat Thor's lightning arcs around the world to destroy several satellites that were going to kill everyone on the planet. Assuming these satellites are in Geosynchronous Orbit and using the given time-frame of about 10 seconds, this would make Thor's lightning several thousand times faster than sound.

This feat is actually unimpressive, but you didn't know that and still brought it up, despite the fact that you considered it to be more impressive than any other one of Thor's feats. Basically, you're applying a line of reasoning on Clark that you're not applying on Thor.

None of this matters, of course, because that line of reasoning is wrong. I will quote a wiseman to explain:

Thor's lightning being this fast doesn't actually raise any issues. There haven't been any instances of his lightning failing to do something speed-wise

Oh wait. That's you.

Seriously lol, you are right here. Lack of replication isn't what makes a feat an outlier - contradiction is. As long as a feat doesn't raise enough issues (aka anti-feats), it is consistent, even if it's a million times more impressive than anything the character has ever done. There haven't been any instances of Thor's lightning failing to do something speed-wise (ignoring Loki), and there also haven't been any instances of Superman failing to destroy something less durable than the World Engine (to my memory). In that case, neither feat is an outlier.

That said, even if this were Clark's consistent level I'd still say that it's not enough to put down Thor easily, and given that it isn't I think it would be fair to say that Clark putting down Thor in any reasonable amount of time is naught but a pipe dream. To prove this point I'm going to show Thor tanking attacks from a few characters who hit harder than Clark does, starting with the frost giants:

Frost Giants in EMH, who truly are giant, are capable of casually tossing building-sized rocks, one-shotting and throwing large buildings, and in a clash with Thor their individual strikes cause shockwaves powerful enough to wipe out rows of houses:

The rocks are likely human-sized (as explained in the strength section), one-shotting buildings is something even pre-amp Diana can do, and those shockwaves, which were the result of a combined effort, pale in comparison to that made by the World Engine (destroying a part of a mountain > destroying one-story houses).

Next, we move onto Vision. Though Vision himself is somewhat lacking in clear cut striking feats, the feat I'll be mentioning doesn't relate to his normal striking. In the Episode, Emperor Stark, Vision dropped himself from above the planet onto a mind-controlled Thor after increasing his mass to 500 tonnes. The effect was, well, I'll let you see for yourself:

Simply the impact of him hitting Thor created a huge shockwave that dispersed the nearby clouds, and their falling form melts the snow off of all the nearby trees just by getting close. When they actually hit the ground they make a huge crater that also travels decently deep. Yet, after taking this attack head-on, the next we see of Thor he is standing over Vision, seemingly about to deliver a finishing blow, and also seemingly unscathed from his fierce attack

The shot at the end also gives a clearer shot of the size of the crater Vision made, as it was easily the size of a decent-sized building.

The World Engine is about half the size of the Black Zero, which dwarfed skyscrapers.

No Caption Provided

Its mass is far above 500 tonnes (probably hundreds of times above that), and it was stated to be mach 24 and accelerating. Even if we assume that it slowed down right before landing, its visual speed is still supersonic.

Vision's shockwave dispersed gas? Cute, but the engine's shockwave dispersed thousands of tons of liquid and destroyed millions of tons of solid rock. Melting snow is to be expected, as re-entry heat is 3000 °F, and Clark took such heat just fine on a separate occasion. I'm not sure how you know that the crater Vision made is building-sized, as there is nothing to compare it with.

Both are very impressive feats, but I'm pretty sure Clark's is much better, unless I'm horribly off with the science.

The last character I'm going to show Thor taking hits from would be Hulk, who has no shortage of impressive feats. For a simple clear cut striking feat I'll go with this particular feat from the fight against Graviton:

Yeah I don't think this

No Caption Provided

can compare to this:

No Caption Provided

And a weakened Clark surpassed that ^ while resisting this:

No Caption Provided

which Hulk's feat also can't compare with.

Superman's durability vs Thor's output

You didn't even post any durability feats in your opener due to your insistence that he'll never get tagged.

He never will.

That said, it matters little because even if you did show feats for Clark it wouldn't change the fact that Thor hits significantly harder in all areas than anyone Clark has taken hits from.

Clark took numerous hits from his physical peers and superiors (Zod and Doomsday), who also have scaling from his World Engine feat.

I've already shown Thor's joint feat with a frost giant which already demonstrates better striking than characters like Nam-Ek and Faora who have rocked Clark with their strikes,

Bruh, Nam Ek and Faora are Kryptonians who scale from Clark...

but let's take it a step further. I'm going to do my best to show off why Thor's damage output is significantly above what Clark has shown himself to be able to take.

Let's go back to giant man, and a feat I showed off in the first section of this post:

Where he throws a massive cargo ship a decent distance onto Graviton. Again, this is a feat I can't see Clark or anyone comparable to him doing. The only similar feat I can think of would be Nam-Ek's train feat, which clearly isn't anywhere near as good.

That tiny boat weighs 30 tons, as I've shown in the strength section. It's a horrible feat, badly beaten by Clark's building feat and probably Nam Ek's train throw as well, but I haven't bothered to check.

This is significant as Giant-Man isn't even on Thor's level physically, as I will go on to show.

In the above feat, we see that Ultron-5 is capable of taking punches from Giant-Man, clearly demonstrating his impressive durability. When Ultron faced off against Thor, however, the situation was quite different. In his fight against Ultron-6 the very next episode, a pissed off Thor demonstrated the ability to inflict what would be lethal damage (if the one on the receiving end wasn't a self-repairing robot) to Ultron on

I don't think the gap between Thor and Giant Man is wide at all. Here you can see Hank one-shotting Abomination with a single kick:

Loading Video...

Please note that Abomination had full health and couldn't return for the rest of the episode. A few minutes later, Giant Man knocked out Executioner with a slap. Several episodes after that, Hank beat Abomination up once more (this time with his fists), and the minute after, he wrecked some Frost Giants. Abomination, Executioner, and Frost Giants are all on Thor's level physically, and Hank dealt with them just fine.

With that said, the feat you're using for Hank sucks anyway.

I haven't even mentioned the power of Thor's lightning, which he can summon with a simple gesture. Though he often charges up for his big attacks, it's not always necessary as he has summoned powerful lightning without much build-up in some instances. One such example would be when Thor arrived in the fight against Galactus in the Season 2 Finale:

Despite only just arriving, Thor summons lightning powerful to bring Galactus to his knees, as well as creating a storm that seemingly covered the entire city.

Cap could already hear Thor's thunder 10 seconds before the first lightning bolt, so Thor did have time to cook up the storm and charge his attack.

And before you say that EMH Galactus is featless, seconds before the above feat he was no-selling attacks from War Machine and Captain Marvel, both of whom should be at least comparable to Iron Man (especially Carol given that she was amped after absorbing an attack from Galactus himself). Iron Man has no shortage of good feats, such as when he blasted a huge creature that was covering all of Liberty Island:

Season 1 Episode 9: Living Legend
Season 1 Episode 9: Living Legend

Now Tony had specifically attuned his Unibeam (as it previously been ineffective on this creature) but this is still an incredible display of his power. The power of a character far weaker than Thor.

Hurting Superman with Kryptonite brass knuckles doesn't mean that Batman has Superman-level striking, considering how ineffective his regular attacks were. Beating a Liberty-Island-sized creature by using its weakness doesn't mean that Iron Man has Liberty-Island-level unibeams, considering how ineffective his regular attacks were.

Even ignoring that, the feat doesn't compare to the World Engine, which Kryptonians get to scale from.

And all of this doesn't matter anyway because Thor isn't hitting Clark.

Conclusion

  • Clark is way stronger, being able to lift weights 15 times heavier than the weights Thor's superiors cannot. Thor has a trillion-ton feat, but it is contradicted by pretty much everything.
  • Clark is way faster, with his combat speed being on par with his travel speed, which is easily Mach 150+. Thor, on the other hand, is street-level in this category, with some decent reaction feats which won't really help him. It's even unlikely that Thor can tag Clark with lightning, since we all make clear distinctions between fictional and natural lightning, as well as the fact that Loki reacted to it.
  • Clark will win if he can hurt Thor even a little, which he probably can, being able to (in a weakened state and resisting an immensely powerful gravity beam) one-shot a giant machine that was unscathed after landing so hard that the generated shockwave displaced thousands of tons of water and destroyed part of a mountain. This feat seems to outclass Thor's durability feats significantly.
  • Clark stomps pls lock @morpheus@rogueshadow

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