OT: Team Fox takes it comfortably thanks to Apocalypse's raw-power & versatility + extremely good scaling:
Prepare for the Age of Apocalypse:
Apocalypse is on an entirely different level.
His shields will protect from Gorr, due to them protecting him from the Planetary-level threat that is Fox Magneto. And in case some wonder how powerful that Magneto was Post-Apocalypse's pep-talk to unlock his full-potential:
Loading Video...
He was casually capable of consistently ripping apart entire cities around the world, after the encouragement he got from Apoc:
Someone doing what he did, as consistently as he did it, on a planetary scale, no less. Puts his raw power far above anyone in the MCU.
And then Magneto stopped all his planetary devastations to focus all his efforts & power on Apocalypse only:
Loading Video...
And En-Sabbah Nur managed to shield from it, and only strain, while he was multi-tasking in the Astral-realm against another Planetary-level threat in the Xavier he personally amped to be equal, or above the Planetary-level Cerebro-amp Xavier.
That's not to say Erik didn't do anything. Because he was the only one Apocalypse couldn't swat away. And had to put effort into defending from him. As shown by him shaking, and struggling to walk forward, by just shielding from Eriks's assault.
So Gorr can wail on him all he wants. He won't do anything.
Apocalypse is really powerful. Like, leagues more powerful than anyone in the MCU via absurd levels of TK, second only to Magneto. The casual Planetary-level threat (Skip to 4:00):
Loading Video...
As shown above, he has lifted millions of tons with his telekinesis, transmuted a city with TK and caused an earthquake from Egypt that was felt all round the world with his telekinesis.
So, I'm gonna explain why Team Wizards doesn't take it. And that's because there's only one person actually fighting on that Team. And that's Fate.
MCU Strange is utterly useless. The man is a complete joke at this point, with only one amazing showing against IG Thanos, and a stalemate.
And both showings have the important context of him needing, having, and using the Timestone in different ways. The first was via prep to setup a timeloop to make Dormammu rage-quit.
And the second occasion was to see through thousands of timelines. Which allowed him to know everything necessary to do, to perform as well as he did against Thanos, and to reach ENDGAME. He was basically following a manual. And has future knowledge. And still took the L. So his best showing isn't even purely his. And required prep + knowledge of how everything will exactly go down, for him to counter Thanos for as long, and as well as he did.
Everything outside of those extremely contextual showings is outright pathetic & laughable. He got humiliated by Maw and blitzed before he could use the Timestone.
He struggled with Peter Parker, even though he was determined to get the spell back, and was willing to trap him in the Mirror Dimension to do so.
And let's not forget his embarrassing struggle against the MFTL++ juggernaut that was Gargantos. Which happened when he also got help from the current Sorcerer Supreme, Wong.
Anyway, this is going off-topic.
Point is, there's no proof to say Dr. JOBBER will do any better against Apocalypse. Who has superior feats to him in terms of consistency. And who can just simply blitz & crush his hands.
Granted, everything I typed above won't stop some from claiming he can win and solo this via "M-muh BFR GG!!!" While ignoring all of his embarrassing low-ends. And the fact that tactic would've been damn useful against slow fodder like Gargantos. Or someone who couldn't deal with it, such as Maw.
I believe this describes my reaction to the BFR argument in MCU Strange threads:
Where was Dr. High-Tier when this happened:
Or were we following a different Strange during the entire Gargantos sequence?
And where was Mirror Dimension BFR/GG during that whole fight?
And let's not forget the Spidey fight in NWH. Where Strange was determined to get the box no matter what. Even to the point of throwing Pete in the MD. So Peter doing as well as he did against Dr. High-Tier is pretty embarrassing.
MCU Strange is plain pathetic and sucks ass. Unlike Fate, he doesn't use what he knows is good and works. But rather prefers to use new & featless spells against people he knows are a danger.
He also only won 1 fight throughout his whole appearances in the MCU. And that was against himself. Which required Sinister to be distracted for Strange to even win.
Even his Defender counterpart was more impressive than him. And he sure as hell wouldn't have struggled against Gargantos.
Long story short, Fate can't carry his fodder teammate. And he gets jumped after Apocalypse blitzes and crushes Strange. His blasts will probably absorbed by Shaw. And punches & kicks aren't gonna be of use against a guy who absorbs the kinetic energy of such stuff, and another who's regen will heal the damage away.
-I don't think Apocalypse is stronger than literally everyone in the MCU. Even if we're not counting What If...? characters, Apocalypse is not a planet-buster, whereas users of the Power Stone have shown the capacity to do that. And of course, he hasn't affected the entire universe the way a full IG user has. Now, stronger than most MCU characters? Maybe. But stronger than all of them? I have to disagree.
-He eventually killed Gargantos, and I feel like to the extent he struggled with him, we could just take that as a feat for him. Not that I think he's FTL+ or anything silly like that, but I think its a bit unfair to say that because a villain in his own movie made him work for his win it proves he's weak. That would be akin to saying Captain America is a weakling because he doesn't one-shot all of his enemies throughout his movie appearances.
-I likewise think Maw holding his own against Strange is a feat for the former. Also, remember that he beat Strange by using TK to choke him out, which I don't think is the same as having greater raw power than him. I would say Strange has more raw power, but Maw was able to win by being tactical. Just feel that context is worth pointing out.
-Yes, Strange was determined to get the box back from Spider-Man, but I think it's safe to say that he was still holding back to the degree that he was not trying to kill him (in contrast to other fights where he shows a full willingness to use lethal force and does). So I think we can say that Strange was still holding back to some degree. It makes no sense that he'd be going all out on Spider-Man.
-Strange held his own against Scarlet Witch while using his dead counterpart's body as a puppet. I'd say that's a good showing myself, and in conjunction with beating Sinister Strange (who has killed other Doctor Stranges), shows he isn't a jobber. I agree that his showing against Thanos was dependent in part on his having the Time Stone, but I wouldn't say Strange without Time Stone is a jobber or fodder.
I don't think Apocalypse is stronger than literally everyone in the MCU. Even if we're not counting What If...? characters
I was more talking about him having more raw-power than a good majority of the humanoids in the live action MCU via his Telekinesis and scaling off of Magneto.
Of course he's not more powerful than all of them. But via his feats and scaling, he's only below dudes like full IG Thanos and other absurd high-tiers.
And of course What if...? Characters don't count. Those versions are bonkers. And when I talk about the MCU live action MCU in a debate, I never include them.
He eventually killed Gargantos, and I feel like to the extent he struggled with him, we could just take that as a feat for him.
The entire Gargantos ordeal has been debated over and over again. And I took part in it. The conclusion is just that the whole ordeal showcases how pathetic Strange was. And you can't really scale Gargantos or try to pretend he's a high-tier without some mental gymnastics.
You can't seriously look at Strange, who should realistically be a high-tier, struggling against a slow, haxless fodder like Gargantos. Unless you can see Iron-Man or IG Thanos (Two guys with more than 1 contextual showing to their names. And far more consistency) struggling somehow against it as well. Which is impossible without some convoluted logic at play.
It's not a feat for Gargantos, due to how weak and slow the creature was established. And It hasn't shown anything to realistically allow it to hang with Strange. And the fact it was just a brick with 0 special hax. And the fact that not only Strange, but Wong as well, struggled against it at the same time. And tried to use martial arts instead of any magic a real wizard like Fate would use. Just goes further to show how weak both are. Especially Strange, when he doesn't have his precious Infinity Stone + prep to use it.
If Strange was fighting the same creature Defender Strange was fighting:
Loading Video...
I would've been down for trying to scale it to Strange.
And I surely would've understood why he struggled. Since that one has actual burn + death + poison hax. And is far more faster and versatile than Gargantos. And fought an actually competent version of MCU Strange in Defender Strange:
But unfortunately, Gargantos ain't like the Ribbon Monster. He's a slow fodder with 0 hax for his name. And embarrassing stats.
I likewise think Maw holding his own against Strange is a feat for the former. Also, remember that he beat Strange by using TK to choke him out, which I don't think is the same as having greater raw power than him. I would say Strange has more raw power, but Maw was able to win by being tactical. Just feel that context is worth pointing out.
The fact that someone like Strange, who was confirmed to have grown massively in terms of skill & knowledge during his death loop against Dormammu, struggled against someone like Maw, who's just an individual with far, far, far weaker Telekinesis than Apocalypse. And who's experience and tactical skills should be nothing compared to the (Correct me if I'm wrong) hundreds or thousands of years Strange spent during the loop learning and perfecting his skills, magic, and knowledge. So the fact that he struggled against a guy who's only power is Telekinesis. And got blitzed by him before he could use the Timestone, Is extremely embarrassing.
There's a limit to the excuses one can make for a guy like this. Who only has 1 good, contextual showing to his name.
Also, I would've loved to see his superior raw-power at any point in that fight against Maw. Or Peter. Or Wanda. But I guess it left him in favor of a featless snake spell. Or throwing magical notes. Or when he faces a big, slow, haxless squid.
Yes, Strange was determined to get the box back from Spider-Man, but I think it's safe to say that he was still holding back to the degree that he was not trying to kill him (in contrast to other fights where he shows a full willingness to use lethal force and does).
That's not an excuse.
1. Even if he wasn't going for the kill, his arsenal alone should've allowed him to low-diff Peter. Who shouldn't shouldn't hang with a so called "High-Tier" sorcerer who can hang with an Infinity Gauntlet user. There's a clear multiple tier difference from keeping your own against an IG user, to struggling with a glorified street-leveler. Serious or not, Strange has next to 0 excuses. Especially consider the fact that he was clearly serious and was going to do anything necessary to get the spell back, except for killing Peter.
2. Someone of Strange's "High-Tier" status doesn't & shouldn't need to be bloodlusted to clap Spider-Man. But alas, the MCU decided to screw him over and have hims struggle. There's also an implication that he struggled with Lizard, if I remember correctly. And couldn't react to Goblin's bomb. It's pretty embarrassing the more I think about it.
Strange held his own against Scarlet Witch while using his dead counterpart's body as a puppet.
He didn't. The spirits of The Damned did. Strange just pointed them at Wanda, and they did all the work. From eating her blasts to traping her temporarily.
Wanda immediately after breaking free, swats Ztrange away.
and in conjunction with beating Sinister Strange (who has killed other Doctor Stranges), shows he isn't a jobber.
1. Sinister was clearly the superior in that fight. The best Strange could do was stalemate him. And only won because Sinister Strange was focused on pulling the Darkhold towards him. Which gave Strange the opportunity to kill him via a chain reaction explosion. He didn't beat him. He used the final magical note while Sinister was clearly distracted, to cause the explosion that sent him flying out and falling into his death.
2. Sinister killed other Stranges via possession and making them kill themselves. He even asks Strange if he had a dream of falling to support that. Plus, he has no actual way to go and fight other Stranges in a 1v1. Otherwise, he would've just taken their Christines for himself. Like he planned to do with 838 Christine. Since he's obsessed with her.
but I wouldn't say Strange without Time Stone is a jobber or fodder.
On-screen evidence says otherwise to that.
Overall, I'm gonna have to tell you to accept that Strange became a joke in the MCU. And that's coming from a Strange fan.
Until the MCU actually decides to treat him with some respect and care. The dude has too many embarrassing low-ends & anti-feats to contradict his one and only good showing on Titan.
It's baffling how DCEU Fate ended up being the superior & more versatile Sorcerer of the two. With faster magic use. And that's with only 1 movie. And 0 prep & a magical time-altering artifacts on him. He's also isn't a glass-cannon as well.
@cryolancer47: Don't really think it's that baffling. I always figured Strange Vs. Fate in the comics to be a close enough contest to be debatable, and Fate was in a movie that had Black Adam and Sabaac in it, so I don't think its too shocking that he came out looking so good.
Log in to comment