@mooty_pass: You say I'm underestimating Marvel, while you're clearly underestimating DC.
How am I underestimating DC if I just said in both my responses now that DC can win this fight also??
I didn't say: "Marvel Stomps" and i'm not overestimating Marvel's capabilites or DC. Yet, i'm underestimating DC.
Explain that to me please....
Chavez is not going to handle all those heavy hitters by herself, even if bfr is allowed.
If BFR was allowed, yes. Ms. America can single handily bfr mostly all the heavy hitters. If she is able to BFR Spectrum Monica Rambeau in her light form(someone who is faster than ALL of the DC females). You can expect the same to happen here.
I mean if you read Chavez solo that's her main go to move other than punching and flying. She likes to send people to different dimensions. Not only that if you read Ultimates by Al Ewing Chavez was able to perceive Monica Rambeau moving at light speed.
So, help me understand how she is NOT able to do any of that?? Because.....i think she can and will.
But you told me there is no BFR so this tactic is not likely to happen.
You don't seem to understand that the hax users on Marvel will be KO, before they can do anything.
No, I understand i've been arguing this before you even joined ComicVine(that's assuming your not someone using an Alt Account).
I can see about half of the Marvel ladies getting blitzed until Invisible Woman does something about it. And then kills them in the process.
DC literally has 13 people that can blitz before anyone on the Marvel team can react.
Yes they do, but Marvel has females that have answers for Blitzs. They will blitz themselves right into an Invisible Shield.
DC also has power hax like Zatanna and Circe.
Which can be countered or busy with Scarlet and Enchantress.
It's look like you are downplaying the DC Team.
Nobody, is downplaying or low balling anyone on the DC LOL. I haven't said anything negative about DC. So where did you get that from??? Becuase now i'm getting the impression from our conversation that you are completely ignoring possibilities of Marvel actually winning a Morals off fight(Which they can) and then accuse me of Downplaying when I wasn't
Your first response to me was downplaying the Marvel Side.
@mooty_pass: @teentitans96:Goodness, calm your emotions I've seen you all over this thread. However, I may lean towards D.C, but you greatly underestimate Marvel. If we have morals off here, that would include Jean's Phoenix Force, HOM Wanda, and Devil Woman Magik. None of these women excluding Raven can withstand this kind of power, and Raven alone cannot take them. Circe with amps has depowered every malle villain and superhero and more.....
What can Mrs. America do? Raven cannot bfrd or reality warped.
If Phoenix is involved in this battle, or Hom Wanda the D.c teams need a balance. (Add Amethyst)
1. Since Chavez can bfr, Raven and Zatanna can bfr Chavez, and most of the Marvel girls also. Zatanna could say pots, while either her or Raven could bfr them.
2. What makes you think Sue will put her shield up in time? 50FT is a short distance. Can Sue be telepathically affected while in her shield? If so Maxima will telepathically assault her. Cause I think I seen a post on this thread saying Sue was tp assaulted while in her shield.
3. Those arguments you made are good, I agree Marvel could win morals on. But for them to win Morals Off, they would need one sided prep. Anyways I'm new on here, so its nice to finally have a debate. So far, this is my favorite thread, since I'm a huge fan of super heroines.
@thevoidofdeath: im not mad, the OP says moral of, no phoenix force, no HOM, and Magik is not in this fight. Anyways I'm not all over this thread just on page 5, because the OP tagged me in a post.
Jean Grey is an issue for the D.C team because she has bypassed people who are immune to telepathy. In addition to this said, the reaction time is above average. Her Shields have tanked white holes and tanked binary. I remember Jean going toe to toe with Gladiator, who was actually blitzing. Jean has the psychic raptor and can penetrate any psychic defense, within reason from what I know. In addition to this said, jeans can also shield identities and protect them from being overwritten! Jean has shown to be able to pierce any shield by jeans hand with her psychic raptor, it will physically destroy organs, Brains, and even noncorporeal form. Jean can shut down both opponents and if shed amped by Emma it'll be even worse.
Raven, on the other hand, has a shield that has blocked out a telepath on the same level of Trigon. Raven is able to keep up with the D.C heavy-hitters because she has been able to manhandle Superboy and outpace kid flash.
Jean Grey is an issue for the D.C team because she has bypassed people who are immune to telepathy. In addition to this said, the reaction time is above average. Her Shields have tanked white holes and tanked binary. I remember Jean going toe to toe with Gladiator, who was actually blitzing. Jean has the psychic raptor and can penetrate any psychic defense, within reason from what I know. In addition to this said, jeans can also shield identities and protect them from being overwritten! Jean has shown to be able to pierce any shield by jeans hand with her psychic raptor, it will physically destroy organs, Brains, and even noncorporeal form. Jean can shut down both opponents and if shed amped by Emma it'll be even worse.
She only does that with phoenix raptor. If were really talking Maxima was holding her own with Brainiac cosmic level tp for a moment. I highly she is taking Maxima or Raven out.
Indeed, she is most definitely not taking out Raven.(I don't know Maxima well enough to claim to be an expert, but I shall take your word for it) Raven does have the shield's to protect her team , and the speed abilities.
I know you were talking to him. Which is why i'm confused as being accused of Downplaying when I said nothing negative about DC LOL.
Ms. America is a threat because of her Hax. She can bfr a person regardless if they move at Light Speed. I mean she did it to Monica Rambeau. Without that HAX she is just another Captain Marvel.
Oh Goodness, don't fret that comment was not directed at you. Ah, I see okay I see how that can definitely be a threat for the team, but might I ask can she bfr astral forms? Example, likea being like shadowking?
@kasya_carey: Where did you get Spectrum from?? She's not in this fight.
-You mentioned Monica above
To that point I agree. But that was before I was told BFR is not allowed. IF bfr was allowed no DC female is touching Ms. Amerca.
-Alright
I don't know Hecate like that and I don't know why we are even using Hecate. To my understainding Circe and WW were given Hecate's power. Which means that's not their normal power levels. So, why is that discussed.
If that's the case then Jean should have the PF......which would really tip the scales.
-I think using just a little of Hecate power circe and WW were universal+ to multiversal I think not sure. But Hecate himself is WAY passed the level of even multiversal +.
I rather not assume she can or can't because that would be a debate that goes nowhere. I can't prove that she can, and nobody can prove that she can't. So what's the point ya'know?
@destinyman75: the new gods didn’t have their motherbox when maxima attacked Orion. Brainiac made sure every new god had that stripped.
Before his tp was really amped he oneshotted Metron I think he had his. Maxima for a brief moment was able to match his cosmic tp so I guess she could bypass.
Most of DC girls get dropped with telepathy. Those with lower end durability can get struck by lightning or flash frozen. Jean, Emma & Psylocke create some sort of mental intrusion while the DC women with higher durability to energy & mental attacks get teamed up on by She Hulk, Red She Hulk, Ms. Marvel & Rogue. Scarlet Witch is definitely overkill, the telepaths were for the most part enough. The Justice League & much of DC have known weaknesses to telepathic assaults. Hawk Girl, Raven, Zatanna, Killer Frost & some more DC girls can be dropped automatically with lightning &/or flash-freezing. Pick your poison. Marvel ftw.
@gmorto: It surely isn't as clean cut as some people are trying to make it seem. I can see it going either way, but I favor Marvel so I argued in their favor.
Scenario 1: Most of Marvel girls get dropped by DC's telepaths (Maxima, Miss Martian, Saturn Girl, and Vixen (OP gave her Grodd's telepathy). Jean, Emma, and Psylocke would get speed blitzed. Once the telepaths are KO, Diana speedblitz the rest of the Marvel Girls. Storm gets speedblizted, and a lot of the DC girls are fast enough to dodge lightning. Killer Frost (Louise Lincoln version judging by the pic the OP has) can also flash freeze the many street levelers on the Marvel side.
Sceneario 2: Maxima, Miss Martian, Saturn Girl, and Vixen(has Grodds powers) distract Jean, Emma, and Psylocke in a telepathic battle, while the rest Marvel girls get stomped by the DC heavy hitters. Circe is more powerful than normal Wanda, on top of that there's Black Alice who can straight up steal Wanda's powers leaving her poweless.
To be honest, I do like the points you bring up, but I leans more towards DC, due to this being morals off, and the DC team is way more stacked than the Marvel team. DC wins 9/10 imo.
@jla_avengers: No telepath on that team is stalling Jean, let alone Jean, Emma & Betsy. If you believe that those telepaths you just named can even distract the Marvel telepaths, then you must argue that some of Marvels heavy hitters with super speed in the OP will distract DC's "equivalents". Jean Grey is recalled widely for her telepathic feats that have surpassed what really any "telepath" on DC's side can do.
So that is moot. And even with morals off, the direct result would not be speedblitzing. That is not a consistent attack resort, where as Jean and Emma's usual first lines of defense is telepathy. If those heavy hitters on DC's team don't start with a speed blitz (which they really ninety nine percent of the time don't) then they're curbed. If the same power-related laws from Marvel are allowed in this fight, & I assume everyone has their respective power levels, Jean Grey can even pierce the telepathic protection of DC team members. Most, if not all, of DC is getting dropped immediately with a telepathic assault because that actually is Jean's first line of defense. Coupled with Emma & Betsy's psychic prowess, I see a bunch of women dropping like flies who are all too familiar with bug spray.
The only chance, in HELL, that DC has is like you said; speedblitzing. If they start off any other way & let Marvel Girl dissect the situation, they are curbed.
@easternglider: OK, you have WW's Lasso of Truth which would free a person of telepathy and protect th person against it, WW has some degree of telepathic resistance (though to be fair her resistance is inconsistent at times). Since the OP says post-crisis and new-52 feats, the new 52 version has shown greater tp resistance. She can lasso her teammates to free them from telepathic assaults. So, she could either lasso Jean, Grey, and Psylocke, which they can not move once in the lasso, and they have to do whatever WW says. Maxima, Miss Martian, and Saturn Girl are powerful enough to stall them. Maxima is also one of the most powerful telepaths in DC, while Saturn Girl is the most powerful telepath in the 30th century. Maxima is also extremely versatile, she can knock off Jean's, Emma, and Psylocke's head while speedblitzing. Even DC's telepaths can drop most of the Marvel girls also. Also, some of the DC girls will speed blitz in character like Cheetah. Cheetah is one of DC's fastest speedster. LOL Marvel has like what 3 speedsters on their side, compared to DC's 15 speedsters. Marvel's heavy hitters are not as fast as DC's heavy hitters. She-Hulk's and Ms. Marvel's strength is nothing compared to WW, Supergirl, Mary Marvel, Power Girl, etc. There are ways DC can deal with Marvel, as there are ways for Marvel to win. DC can win without speedblitz.
@jla_avengers: If Jean Grey can pierce the telepathic resistance of Mag's helmet, Wonder Woman will be child's play. But assuming that Wonder Woman isn't one of the initial people that is taken down telepathically, what answer do they have for Sue's shields that have withstood a lot more than most of anyone here could dish out. If Marvel's telepaths are acting through Sue's shields how will they be reached or done away with then? While DC has speedsters, that seems to be their crutch, & it's not like they start with that attack 99 percent of the time. Sue on the other hand when assisting team members acts as a defensive player & telepaths start with well... telepathic assaults. With your logic, the DC girls' telepathy doesn't compare to Marvel's.
Emma alone is a match for Saturn Girl so telepathically, she's a nonfactor. Considering Sue with nigh-impenetrable shields (that can not be bypassed mentally or physically), energy manipulators/projectors, two of some of Marvel's top tier telepaths & Marvel's most powerful telepath along with Amora & Scarlet Witch who are very powerful sorceresses against a team of super strength possessing speedsters (which is really their only edge because they can be matched in almost any other way) Marvel has an edge. But you are right, there are also ways for DC to defeat Marvel.
I do not like the idea of speedblitzing so I won't even consider it, but Black Alice & Raven turn the tides in my opinion for DC.
I give it to both Comic teams 5/10 because I can see either winning realistically.
Also I read through pg 2-3 on this thread it was shown that Maxima can resist casual brainiac, and casual brainaic has range feats comparable to xavier. If an amped Xavier can’t take down Maxima completely than I don’t think Emma or Psylocke to do the same.
Raven has access to a nexus of all reality, and that's within her soul self. Half the team drops if that happens , and Raven has shielded out attacks that were tp base on Trigons level :)
@thevoidofdeath: i didn't know that about Raven, that's cool. Raven is one of my favorite DC characters. Is new 52 raven more powerful that post crisis, I'm only familiar with post crisis Raven.
@thevoidofdeath: if what you said about new 52 Raven is true, then it looks like the DC team has a more telepathic advantage. With Raven, Maxima, Miss Martian, Saturn Girl, Circe, and WW's lasso can protect the DC team from Emma, Jean, and Psylocke. Which makes this more of a mismatch, since Emma, Psylocke, and Jean are the only ones who can do anything to the DC team IMO.
No, Classic Raven (Pre Crisis) is the strongest counterpart, but is the slowest of the other counterparts. However, new 52 Raven is a brute and doesn't mind speed blitzing and being more forward with her abilities.
Ah, I am seeing this to be quite unfair to Jean Grey. Having said this, everyone is morals off, and you have not capped Raven by any means. This means Raven is allowed to turn into a demon, and also use her White variation which outclasses a lot of people here. Then we have her golden spirit form, which has annihilated God's. In addition to this said, when combing all three counterparts, she has put down many heavy-hitting teams. ( Along with God's)
SPEED:
Unfounrtanely, her teammates aren't going to allow that to happen. (They're just as fast as team one) As a consequence of this, no one is blitzing Raven because her new 52 counterpart is fast. In addition to this said, her post-crisis and pre-crisis counterparts are fast enough to a draw.
She speeds blitzed Belial who could react to Superboy and The Flash.
Raven manhandled and evaded attacks from an angered Superboy
Evaded attacks from flash and Superboy while aiding Trigon
Teleported faster than kid flash
Evaded attacks from Hal Jordan
Evaded attacks from Starfires star bolts
Evaded sniper bullets
Evaded Cyborgs attacks
Evaded attacks from Arial bombardment
Evaded attacks from bombshell
Evaded lightning strikes from Trigon
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Keep in mind with speed feats Raven is able to manifest her soul-self instantaneously, and if her body is knocked unconscious she is still able to use her soul self.
or she can split herself into clones to fight her teammates (Trigon is possessing the tt roster and knows ravens weaknesses)
Raven can start of completely intangible
She can soul manipulate the opposite team
She can jump into the time stream
She can transmute the opposing team
Summon demi God's (which are arguably just as strong as your team physically and magically, but they pale in comparison to Raven)
Or she battlefield removes everyone to her dimension, and that dimension nullifies all abilities. Or they get sent to hell like a brotherhood or sent to trigon
she can cloak her teamates from hellfire or electricity attacks (storm)
she can empower her teamates ( MEANING SHE CAN AMP THE HELL OUT OF CIRCE OR OTHER PSYCHICS
Telempathic : This is where it becomes unfair because of Raven in her Pre-crisis version having universal plus feats. ( Jean should have the Phoenix force or Raven stomps)
Note for telepaths on the opposite team: The difference lies in Raven's mind being a very hostile place to visit, as has been shown more than once by people trying to get into it... or being exposed to it. In part that's due to how powerful she is, in another is that she is a half-demon. In older versions, her father is partially connected to it and he doesn't like intruders. And Raven herself describes her mind as being ripped and torn from the fabric of reality.
Regular Raven can channel the planet with a mere thought and completely mind screwed brother blood who was immune to tp.(This is just regular blue Raven) Oh, and she also probed a weakened Trigon .. which is universal lol.(Regular Raven did that)
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She posses Telempathic abilities and that means all of them !! I am not going to post every scan, because it takes to long lol.
Then we have had these feats
Then we have OMNIVERSAL EMPATHY from the nexus within realms of her soul self. There is nothing stopping Raven from going to such a place and ending the battle here.
she says she's at a nexus of all realities... which should mean she probed every inhabitant of the post-COIE multiverse), it's more a feat of endurance at first before it becomes one of fine-tuning (the fact is that she does find Phobia by locking onto her victim).
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OFFENSIVE TELEPATHIC/EMPATHIC FEATS
Raven's mind is protected by Trigon, and he will kill any telepath that dare tries to mess with her head.(They share a mental bridge and I don't see any of these telepaths surpassing Trigon lol)
Raven's soul-self is a nexus, and also can be Trigon. Trigon can manifest himself within Raven's soul self , and can also kill. Think of Jean and the Phoenix
Then we have her when she turns evil repelling anyone that Tries to control or over take her
Then another offensive feat etc
and this is what happened to dr Psycho. He was taken down right away and Raven will wake up after that and erase his mind illusions from the minds of the other. Interesting is that Manchester Black was still seeing that illusion even after Psycho was out, and up until Power Girl will KO him, so it was pretty powerful considering that Black resisted Martian Manhunter telepathy, someone who is around Jean level I'd say or higher depending ( Don't get mad at me Pyrofn )... This what happens when you try to go after Raven telepathically... Dr. psycho crippled at an exhausted Raven's defenses.
Then we have a feat of new 52 Raven shielding out a Telepathic attack on Trigons level , and this Trigon from new 52 merged with an entity that leveled universes. Raven was able to shield her friends from this attack for quite some time, but not a long time. (I am trying to find the scan)
There are more feats for offensive but it's too much to post lmao
TEAM BUSTING
Raven's energy-based attacks are a different story. On the topic of her energy-based attacks, she's managed to one-shot Trigon's children(which are some of the most powerful demons): Her brothers had enough power to bust a universe and manhandled the adult TT roster like nothing.
she has a feat of dominating every Teen Titan which includes some powerhouses like Starfire Donna, and Adult Wally west. In addition to this said, she has manhandled an angry Superboy who was employing mountain shattering tk.( WHICH YOUR TEAM IS FACING)
Then we have her destroying over 3000 demons who were beating up the post-crisis titans
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Then she manhandle heavy hitter JLA members in time stasis while mind controlling the titans and mental briding with Trigon . Then manhandled Orion.... soul manipulated Darkseid etc Rhea the Titan who is the mother of zeus
Then we have the Okara incident( This was NTT 25 Raven in her beginning stages )
NTT #25 during the battle on Okaara where Raven was overwhelmed by all the death and pain going on around her as Titans, Okaarans, Omegans, and Citadel troops fought over possession of X'Hal. When she cracks she says:
"I can feel the evil...feel that which is Trigon...I feel it seething...surging...desperately thrashing to break through all my restraints."
At this point the helpful textboxes write that suddenly Raven's soul is felt everywhere on Okaara and into high orbit, where the 'man-god' Aurion was able to feel the evil of something much worse than X'Hal gone mad which leaved him inactive.
However, a voice appears in Raven's head and manfiests Trigon within .
Keep in mind
X'hal d she destroyed 3 of the 23 planets in the Vega System, It took thousands of lives to imprison her
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Or When she manifests Trigon with her soul self , and starts to snap. She knocks donna troy out with her own energy she emits and basically becomes her father.( Like a dark phoenix type thing)
KEEP IN MIND SHE HAS SOUL MANIPULATION A MULTI-UNIVERSAL LEVEL
(I will find those scans later)
RAVEN VS TRIGON
As for the Trigon feat, yes it wasn't Raven directly who did it, but if I am not mistaken it was Azar and Azerath that were working with Raven's powers, bit like Xavier had to in the crossover (as far as I'm aware he's not really on Phoenix's level usually, but I wouldn't honestly know). However, we have power statements showing, that Raven is a universal plus being and that could've contributed to his downfall.
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P.s
Raven can teleport away ( which no one can follow because it transverse's /space-time NOT EVEN THE MONITOR COULD FIND HER ) and use her soul-self to subdue members of the opposite team, and the rest of her can figure out how telepathically /magically how to shut down the opposing team. She can also take several telepaths along with her and amp abilities
proof :
and warp powers don't work on Raven
and neither does time manipulation
PHYSICAL STRENGTH WISE SHE IS JUST AS STRONG AS DONNA TROY
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