Darth Vader vs Snoke

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frozen

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frozen  Moderator

Poll Darth Vader vs Snoke (37 votes)

Darth Vader shows him the true nature of the force! 73%
Snoke makes him his lap dog! 27%

Darth Vader (canon)

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Snoke

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Rules

  • Takes place in Snoke's throne room
  • Morals off
  • 10 feet apart
  • Both are armed with their lightsabers
  • To KO or death

Who takes it?

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deactivated-60ad9ed238b0d

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Vader by feats, in before the Snoke is equal to Palpatine statements, Snoke has lightning which may help him

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#2 frozen  Moderator

@realdeal11: Snoke being equal to Palpatine got retconned.

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DarthAdi

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Snoke maybe

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#4 frozen  Moderator

@darthadi: Vader could be argued at being equal to ROTS Sidious IMO.

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deactivated-60ad9ed238b0d

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@frozen said:

@realdeal11: Snoke being equal to Palpatine got retconned.

Some people still think he is equal for some reason

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crclopezos

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@frozen said:

@realdeal11: Snoke being equal to Palpatine got retconned.

Some people still think he is equal for some reason

Well, Resurrected Sidious >> OT Sidious.

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#7 frozen  Moderator

@crclopezos: That's been blatantly disproven by sources. Only amped Dyad Sidious was above.

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#8  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@crclopezos: Credit to Darth Adi for this source, but it flat out says that resurrected Sidious pre-Dyad amp was past his prime.

He is stated as "past his prime" and "shadow of his former self".

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@frozen said:

@crclopezos: Credit to Darth Adi for this source, but it flat out says that resurrected Sidious pre-Dyad amp was past his prime.

He is stated as "past his prime" and "shadow of his former self".

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To be fair, TROS novelization states the following about Palpatine: "But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating." This would indicate that even if he was past his prime, shriveled Sidious is still far more powerful than Grandmaster Luke, and by extension, Darth Vader. Also note the wording "belied any perception of frailty", which implies that while he appeared be weak/frail, the force indicated the opposite. The quote you posted only days that they wanted to convey in his appearance that he was a shadow of his former self, which is what comes across, but the novel implies that this was merely an illusion.

Furthermore, the official databank has this to say about zombie Palps: "But Sidious had cheated death, returning to life on the Sith redoubt of Exegol -- his body corrupt and broken, but his spirit indomitable as ever." Note the wording "his spirit as indomitable as ever". This could be seen as referring to his mindset/willpower, but it could also be a reference to his force power, seeing as the databank later on states that Palpatine in the final confrontation in TROS augmented his force power with the Sith "spirits" that came before him, indicating that the spirit is what provides force powers. So basically, Palpatine's power level in TROS is kind of unclear, but it appears that he is still the most powerful dark side user by far.

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#10  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dathvada:

The quote you posted only days that they wanted to convey in his appearance that he was a shadow of his former self, which is whatl comes across, but the novel implies that this was merely an illusion.

This seems more like your interpretation and a bit of a stretch. It outright says "he is past his prime" and "shadow of his former self". If you also take into account Matt Martin's words (I know he said don't use them, but I'm making a point here), then his words in conjunction with the passage I posted are clearly referring to power.

The best explanation is that the writers of the novel didn't know about this passage. So Zombie Palps being > OT Palps is contradicted by 2 sources. Even if you discount Matt Martin, the above passage seems like a WoG source/interview quote which should carry more weight than the novelizaiton.

His spirit being strong doesn't mean he is strong in the force. Unless it makes that connection by saying the force afterwards, which it doesn't seem to say. His spirit being the same could just mean he was still motivated.

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Gamer684

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Vader FTW

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dathvada

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@frozen said:

@dathvada:

The quote you posted only days that they wanted to convey in his appearance that he was a shadow of his former self, which is whatl comes across, but the novel implies that this was merely an illusion.

This seems more like your interpretation and a bit of a stretch. It outright says "he is past his prime" and "shadow of his former self". If you also take into account Matt Martin's words (I know he said don't use them, but I'm making a point here), then his words in conjunction with the passage I posted are clearly referring to power.

The best explanation is that the writers of the novel didn't know about this passage. So Zombie Palps being > OT Palps is contradicted by 2 sources. Even if you discount Matt Martin, the above passage seems like a WoG source/interview quote which should carry more weight than the novelizaiton.

His spirit being strong doesn't mean he is strong in the force. Unless it makes that connection by saying the force afterwards, which it doesn't seem to say. His spirit being the same could just mean he was still motivated.

Good points, however, the specific wording that "it was important to convey" merely indicates that they wanted Palpatine to come across as a shadow of his former self, not necessarily that this was actually the case. It's a bit ambiguous at least, whereas the novelization's wording is quite clear imo.

Perhaps, but the passage is merely from one of the art books. Imo the novel would take precedent over an art book as far a canon is concerned, thought that is subjective of course. As far as Matt Martin is concerned, he didn't work on TROS, and from his tweets, I get the impression that he is simply describing what the scene shows and people are running with it a bit too much. He uses the wording "seems" several times during the Twitter exchange you're referring to.

True, like I said, that is one of the ways that statement can be interpreted. I just find the lack of mention of his force abilities to be a bit odd, and the fact that "spirits" have been stated in the same databank to be responsible for force powers indicates the possibility that his force powers have not diminished, even though his body is broken.

If you think about it, even if Palpatine had the same force abilities as a Zombie that he did in ROTJ, he could still be considered to be far past his prime and a shadow of his former self, considering the broken state of his body. Palpatine was a master saber duelist capable of killing 3 Jedi masters in seconds in his prime, whereas shriveled Sidious can't even move lol, which would make him extremely vulnerable to any force user that he can't simply ragdoll (Yoda, for example).

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@realdeal11 said:
@frozen said:

@realdeal11: Snoke being equal to Palpatine got retconned.

Some people still think he is equal for some reason

Well, Resurrected Sidious >> OT Sidious.

Wrong

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Vader one shots

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#15  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@frozen said:

@dathvada:

If you also take into account Matt Martin's words (I know he said don't use them, but I'm making a point here), then his words in conjunction with the passage I posted are clearly referring to power.

Martin never said to not use his statements. He said he would prefer not to be used for arguments, something he's been saying for years. The previous time he mentioned this was "People use me to settle bar disputes" or something along those lines. This has no bearing on the credibility of his statements -- Martin has the authority to clarify lore on Twitter, has said so, and does so on a daily basis.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@dathvada:

To be fair, TROS novelization states the following about Palpatine: "But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating." This would indicate that even if he was past his prime, shriveled Sidious is still far more powerful than Grandmaster Luke, and by extension, Darth Vader.

This contradicts nothing, you're just further displaying how solidly ST characters are locked beneath the PT/OT. Episode III Sidious > Episode IX Sidious > Snoke ~ Luke. There were no other Masters in Luke's Order, so he was just a Master, not "Grandmaster". He started his training at 19 and died at 53. Not to mention 6 years of exile. So it's extremely uncontroversial a reality that he would not be as powerful as the Emperor, and by default Mace and Yoda.

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@frozen said:

@dathvada:

If you also take into account Matt Martin's words (I know he said don't use them, but I'm making a point here), then his words in conjunction with the passage I posted are clearly referring to power.

Martin never said to not use his statements. He said he would prefer not to be used for arguments, something he's been saying for years. The previous time he mentioned this was "People use me to settle bar disputes" or something along those lines. This has no bearing on the credibility of his statements -- Martin has the authority to clarify lore on Twitter, has said so, and does so on a daily basis.

Based off of what happens with Superman authors on twitter, its probably to keep the haters and fantards off his back.

His words still hold more water than the fan speculation that goes on around here.

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#19  Edited By Kirkseven
@sheevsmacker said:
@crclopezos said:
@realdeal11 said:
@frozen said:

@realdeal11: Snoke being equal to Palpatine got retconned.

Some people still think he is equal for some reason

Well, Resurrected Sidious >> OT Sidious.

Wrong

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Good finds.

ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious >> TROS Sidious

Its kind of sad that the combined power of Kylo & Rey combined got cucked by a version of Sidious who is weaker than his ROTS Sidious:

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Anybody with any degree of proximity to ROTS Yoda/Sidious would be able to drop Rey and Kylo.

Which would include: Yoda, Mace, KFV, Dooku, Mother Talzin, Enraged Maul and probably a few others.

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#20  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@kirkseven: Just chiming in with something on a slightly unrelated note.

TROS novelization doesn't exactly say that Palpatine is > Luke in power. Here is the passage:

The figure moved closer. He was unspeakably frail, his body dangling from an enormous mechanism that disappeared into the darkness above. Kylo had seen this before, while studying the Sith, and again while researching clues about Vader’s wayfinder. It was an Ommin harness, a mechanical spine once worn by an ancient Sith king.

Without it, the emperor could not survive.

But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating.

“The First Order was just a beginning,” the creature said. “I will give you so much more.”

It simply says "Power like Kylo had never encountered" and that it was "exhilarating". This reads very differently when read in context of the whole sequence.

It was "power he had never encountered" because its described as a different type of power several pages prior:

Kylo didn’t need to see the entrance to know where it was, because he could feel it beckoning him, welcoming him. It was not the soft, warm welcoming of home or safety but rather one of conquest and need. His skin prickled. The Force was strong here, but it was different. Twisted, rotten, as though filtered through a miasma of decay.

Also, the "exhilarating" part is clearly related to the dark side. The light side never described as exhilierating. The final passage of the sequence makes reference again to the "exhilarating" nature of the dark side:

Kylo’s heart was racing. So much power. A starfield of Destroyers. The largest fleet the galaxy had ever known. The rumors were all true. Exegol was a world populated by the Sith Eternal, true believers in the dark side of the Force, devoting their lives to this.

Also, Kylo wasn't even able to sense that Luke was a force projection in TLJ. So I don't think he even knew the full extent of Luke's power.

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#21  Edited By dathvada

@lord_tenebrous said:

@dathvada:

To be fair, TROS novelization states the following about Palpatine: "But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating." This would indicate that even if he was past his prime, shriveled Sidious is still far more powerful than Grandmaster Luke, and by extension, Darth Vader.

This contradicts nothing, you're just further displaying how solidly ST characters are locked beneath the PT/OT. Episode III Sidious > Episode IX Sidious > Snoke ~ Luke. There were no other Masters in Luke's Order, so he was just a Master, not "Grandmaster". He started his training at 19 and died at 53. Not to mention 6 years of exile. So it's extremely uncontroversial a reality that he would not be as powerful as the Emperor, and by default Mace and Yoda.

Except your claim that Episode III Sidious is more powerful force power wise than Episode IX Sidious is unproven. You are essentially basing this off of an art book quote, which I explained the problems of above, and Matt Martin's Tweets, which are just his opinions and not canon. Even if we take both of those sources at face value, Sidious could still be considered to be past his prime and a shadow of his former self even if his force powers had not diminished from ROTJ, due to the fact that the guy can't even move. He would be vulnerable to any force user(s) that he can't ragdoll easily in that state, whereas prime Sidious was capable of killing 3 Jedi Masters in a few seconds with his saber. There have been no sources whatsoever that have specifically stated that Palpatine's force powers were weaker in Episode IX than they were in ROTS or even ROTJ for that matter. And I haven't even gotten into the fact that Palpatine had access to the power of all the Sith before him during TROS, and the fact that Exegol is a Dark Side force vergence, meaning Palpatine was likely further amped by the planet itself.

Furthermore, considering Palpatine believed Luke would be capable of destroying both himself and Vader, and Luke's parity with Vader as of ROTJ according to Jedi vs Sith, it seems doubtful that Grandmaster Luke (I'm just going to ignore your pedantry here), after decades of training and experience, would be so far beneath Palpatine to the point where the weakest version of him would be so much stronger than Luke to the point where it was "exhilarating" to even be in his presence (btw, the aforementioned quote from the novel specifically says that the force "belied any perception of frailty", which clearly implies that his apparent weakness was merely an illusion).

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#22  Edited By dathvada
@kirkseven said:
@lord_tenebrous said:
@frozen said:

@dathvada:

If you also take into account Matt Martin's words (I know he said don't use them, but I'm making a point here), then his words in conjunction with the passage I posted are clearly referring to power.

Martin never said to not use his statements. He said he would prefer not to be used for arguments, something he's been saying for years. The previous time he mentioned this was "People use me to settle bar disputes" or something along those lines. This has no bearing on the credibility of his statements -- Martin has the authority to clarify lore on Twitter, has said so, and does so on a daily basis.

Based off of what happens with Superman authors on twitter, its probably to keep the haters and fantards off his back.

His words still hold more water than the fan speculation that goes on around here.

Except he also said his tweets are just his opinions and are not canon. But fine. If you and @lord_tenebrous insist on using his tweets as evidence merely due to his status as a story group member, then I'm sure you'll have no issues with Kylo Ren being Vader level in terms of lightsaber skills, as stated by another story group member in the following article: https://www.starwars.com/news/darth-vader-kylo-ren-grandfather-grandson. Edit: and I'm sure you will also have no problems with Matt Martin's Tweet which states that Kylo Ren surpassed Snoke (a guy whom Luke viewed as comparable to Darth Sidious) in power when he cut him in half in TLJ. https://mobile.twitter.com/missingwords/status/1228395175308742656

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What? you compare one of the most dangerous Sith Lord against a hermit? Darth Vader would kill this rip off Emperor Palpatine

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#24  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dathvada: Actually if you read my post, you will notice that I acknowledged the reason his tweets shouldn't be used.

Anyway, TROS novel doesn't actually say Palps is > Luke.

Here is the passage:

The figure moved closer. He was unspeakably frail, his body dangling from an enormous mechanism that disappeared into the darkness above. Kylo had seen this before, while studying the Sith, and again while researching clues about Vader’s wayfinder. It was an Ommin harness, a mechanical spine once worn by an ancient Sith king.

Without it, the emperor could not survive.

But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating.

“The First Order was just a beginning,” the creature said. “I will give you so much more.”

It simply says "Power like Kylo had never encountered" and that it was "exhilarating". This reads very differently when read in context of the whole sequence.

It was "power he had never encountered" because its described as a different type of power several pages prior:

Kylo didn’t need to see the entrance to know where it was, because he could feel it beckoning him, welcoming him. It was not the soft, warm welcoming of home or safety but rather one of conquest and need. His skin prickled. The Force was strong here, but it was different. Twisted, rotten, as though filtered through a miasma of decay.

Also, the "exhilarating" part is clearly related to the dark side. The light side never described as exhilierating. The final passage of the sequence makes reference again to the "exhilarating" nature of the dark side and its temptations:

Kylo’s heart was racing. So much power. A starfield of Destroyers. The largest fleet the galaxy had ever known. The rumors were all true. Exegol was a world populated by the Sith Eternal, true believers in the dark side of the Force, devoting their lives to this.

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@frozen said:

@dathvada: Actually if you read my post, you will notice that I acknowledged the reason his tweets shouldn't be used.

Anyway, TROS novel doesn't actually say Palps is > Luke.

Here is the passage:

The figure moved closer. He was unspeakably frail, his body dangling from an enormous mechanism that disappeared into the darkness above. Kylo had seen this before, while studying the Sith, and again while researching clues about Vader’s wayfinder. It was an Ommin harness, a mechanical spine once worn by an ancient Sith king.

Without it, the emperor could not survive.

But the Force itself belied any perception of frailty because a cloud of darkness and need swelled from the creature, along with power like Kylo had never before encountered. It was exhilarating.

“The First Order was just a beginning,” the creature said. “I will give you so much more.”

It simply says "Power like Kylo had never encountered" and that it was "exhilarating". This reads very differently when read in context of the whole sequence.

It was "power he had never encountered" because its described as a different type of power several pages prior:

Kylo didn’t need to see the entrance to know where it was, because he could feel it beckoning him, welcoming him. It was not the soft, warm welcoming of home or safety but rather one of conquest and need. His skin prickled. The Force was strong here, but it was different. Twisted, rotten, as though filtered through a miasma of decay.

Also, the "exhilarating" part is clearly related to the dark side. The light side never described as exhilierating. The final passage of the sequence makes reference again to the "exhilarating" nature of the dark side and its temptations:

Kylo’s heart was racing. So much power. A starfield of Destroyers. The largest fleet the galaxy had ever known. The rumors were all true. Exegol was a world populated by the Sith Eternal, true believers in the dark side of the Force, devoting their lives to this.

That seems like a reach to me. "Power like he had never encountered" clearly implies a greater power level than before. And the wording of the sentence states that the force "belied any perception of frailty". So the passage is essentially saying that although he appeared to be frail/weak, the force indicated that this was not true, as he had power Kylo had never come across. The sentence is contrasting the apparent "frailty" of Palpatine in that state with the actual power he possessed, which clearly indicates that the level of power is what was noteworthy according to Kylo.

In that passage, it specifically states that his heart was racing due to the level of power, which seems to back my interpretation of the prior quote. It even says "so much power" directly after the sentence you outlined, and uses a fleet of ships as an example, not anything related to the dark side. So it's clear to me that insane amounts of power, regardless of source, are what gets Kylo excited lol.

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#26  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dathvada: I don't think it's a reach when the context completely changes it. The passage starts by explicitly saying it's a different type of power. The dark side is inherently more tempting than the light side. The light side is more balanced and doesn't tempt force users. When have you ever heard of a force user describing the light side as "exhilarating"? The operative word is 'exhilarating'.

Sidious was trying to tempt Kylo further into the dark side. Kylo at that point was still not fully entrenched in the dark side and being tempted by the light.

I'm aware that he still had power beyond his appearance, but the whole passage presents itself very differently when read in context.

When Sdious says "I will give you so much more", he is not simply referring to force power. When Kylo later follows Sidious up on this answer, the example which is used is clearly a new Empire, which leads into the passage I quoted.

“What could you give me?” Kylo asked. Emperor Palpatine lived, after a fashion, and Kylo could feel in his very bones that this clone body sheltered the Emperor’s actual spirit. It was an imperfect vessel, though, unable to contain his immense power. It couldn’t last much longer.

“Everything,” Palpatine said. “A New Empire.”

The creature raised his ruined hand; Kylo sensed him drawing on the Force, but before he could react, his surroundings disappeared as if into a fog, and a vision filled their place.

A black void, like space without stars. Then lightning flashed, revealing cracked ground. The barren landscape shook, then shattered. A mountain erupted onto the surface. Dirt and chunks of soil fell away, revealing a metal hull, striped with red. Around it, more mountains broke the surface, resolving into massive Star Destroyers, half again the size of the Destroyers from the days of the Empire. A single, giant obelisk erupted also, a navigation tower that would coordinate their final ascension. It unfurled like a metal flower, exposing its petal-antennae to the violent sky.

More ships rose—and more and more—until tens of thousands hovered in the atmosphere.

“For a generation, my disciples have labored,” Emperor Palpatine said, his voice dark and deep.

Kylo’s heart was racing. So much power. A starfield of Destroyers. The largest fleet the galaxy had ever known. The rumors were all true. Exegol was a world populated by the Sith Eternal, true believers in the dark side of the Force, devoting their lives to this.

“They’ve built a fleet that will bring an end to the galactic rebellion once and for all.”

The vision was whisked away, replaced by hundreds of thousands of stormtroopers, shining in crimson armor. Thunderous marching filled his ears, and with it came the barest hint of a scent he recognized…blaster-seared blood.

With tremendous effort, Kylo thrust the vision aside. Everything he’d seen would be his. But he was no fool. Nothing was really that easy.

Kylo was clearly being tempted by fantasies of his new empire. He found this exhilierating. The dark side is inherently more tempting and exhilarating.

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@frozen said:

@dathvada: I don't think it's a reach when the context completely changes it. The passage starts by explicitly saying it's a different type of power. The dark side is inherently more tempting than the light side. The light side is more balanced and doesn't tempt force users. When have you ever heard of a force user finding the light side as "exhilarating"? The operative word is 'exhilarating'.

Sidious was trying to tempt Kylo further into the dark side. Kylo at that point was still not fully entrenched in the dark side and being tempted by the light.

I'm aware that he still had power beyond his appearance, but the whole passage presents itself very differently when read in context.

When Sdious says "I will give you so much more", he is not simply referring to force power. When Kylo later follows Sidious up on this answer, the example which is used is clearly a new Empire, which leads into the passage I quoted.

“What could you give me?” Kylo asked. Emperor Palpatine lived, after a fashion, and Kylo could feel in his very bones that this clone body sheltered the Emperor’s actual spirit. It was an imperfect vessel, though, unable to contain his immense power. It couldn’t last much longer.

“Everything,” Palpatine said. “A New Empire.”

The creature raised his ruined hand; Kylo sensed him drawing on the Force, but before he could react, his surroundings disappeared as if into a fog, and a vision filled their place.

A black void, like space without stars. Then lightning flashed, revealing cracked ground. The barren landscape shook, then shattered. A mountain erupted onto the surface. Dirt and chunks of soil fell away, revealing a metal hull, striped with red. Around it, more mountains broke the surface, resolving into massive Star Destroyers, half again the size of the Destroyers from the days of the Empire. A single, giant obelisk erupted also, a navigation tower that would coordinate their final ascension. It unfurled like a metal flower, exposing its petal-antennae to the violent sky.

More ships rose—and more and more—until tens of thousands hovered in the atmosphere.

“For a generation, my disciples have labored,” Emperor Palpatine said, his voice dark and deep.

Kylo’s heart was racing. So much power. A starfield of Destroyers. The largest fleet the galaxy had ever known. The rumors were all true. Exegol was a world populated by the Sith Eternal, true believers in the dark side of the Force, devoting their lives to this.

“They’ve built a fleet that will bring an end to the galactic rebellion once and for all.”

The vision was whisked away, replaced by hundreds of thousands of stormtroopers, shining in crimson armor. Thunderous marching filled his ears, and with it came the barest hint of a scent he recognized…blaster-seared blood.

With tremendous effort, Kylo thrust the vision aside. Everything he’d seen would be his. But he was no fool. Nothing was really that easy.

Kylo was clearly being tempted by fantasies of his new empire. He found this exhilierating. The dark side is inherently more tempting and exhilarating.

Even the passage you just quoted states that Palpatine's vessel was unable to contain his "immense" power. I still don't buy your interpretation of the passage. The quote says that the power that he sensed emanating from Palpatine was unlike any he had ever encountered. This clearly indicates that in this instance, it was force power that Kylo was exhilarated by. Furthermore, in the full passage you just quoted, the starfield of Star Destroyers is the first example used after it states that Kylo's heart was racing. What do Star Destroyers have to do with the dark side? I get that Palpatine is using the promise of absolute power to lure Kylo to the dark side, however, the power he is being promised is not force power, it's military power. The fact that 2 separate types of power (the promise of military might for himself, and the force power emanating from Palpatine) caused the same reaction indicates that high levels of power in general are exhilarating to Kylo, not just dark side power.

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#28 frozen  Moderator

@dathvada: As I said, I'm aware that Palpatine still had power. Yet the passage starts out by directly saying it's a different type of power. It's very nature is described as different to what is known with the light side. Simply saying "Kylo had never encountered power like this" doesn't refer to raw power if the passage very clearly said prior to that quote that it's a different kind of power. Its absolutely true that Kylo up until that point hadn't encountered power like that, but that's because its described as different in its very nature. Palpatine's power in the dark side is described as more "twisted" and "rotten".

I would have agreed that on the face of it, it seemed like it was indeed saying that was the most amount of power he had ever encountered, but the preceding context massively changes the quote IMO. The sequence is Kylo's temptation further into the dark side. Will probably have to agree to disagree on this one it seems.

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@frozen said:

@dathvada: As I said, I'm aware that Palpatine still had power. Yet the passage starts out by directly saying it's a different type of power. It's very nature is described as different to what is known with the light side. Simply saying "Kylo had never encountered power like this" doesn't refer to raw power if the passage very clearly said prior to that quote that it's a different kind of power. Its absolutely true that Kylo up until that point hadn't encountered power like that, but that's because its described as different in its very nature. Palpatine's power in the dark side is described as more "twisted" and "rotten".

I would have agreed that on the face of it, it seemed like it was indeed saying that was the most amount of power he had ever encountered, but the preceding context massively changes the quote IMO. The sequence is Kylo's temptation further into the dark side. Will probably have to agree to disagree on this one it seems.

That passage describes the energy of the location, not Palpatine himself. Exegol is a force vergence, which means that the dark side energy there is always present, with or without Palpatine. I don't think that quote changes the context of the other passage.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree then.

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when did snoke ever have a lightsaber

alas Vader beats him every time

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#31  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@bruhmoment6 said:

when did snoke ever have a lightsaber

alas Vader beats him every time

Kylo killed Snoke with his own lightsaber.

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@frozen said:
@bruhmoment6 said:

when did snoke ever have a lightsaber

alas Vader beats him every time

Kylo killed Snoke with his own lightsaber.

what?

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#33 frozen  Moderator

@frozen said:
@bruhmoment6 said:

when did snoke ever have a lightsaber

alas Vader beats him every time

Kylo killed Snoke with his own lightsaber.

what?

Kylo used Snoke's own lightsaber to kill him, if I recall correctly.

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@frozen said:
@bruhmoment6 said:
@frozen said:
@bruhmoment6 said:

when did snoke ever have a lightsaber

alas Vader beats him every time

Kylo killed Snoke with his own lightsaber.

what?

Kylo used Snoke's own lightsaber to kill him, if I recall correctly.

yeah i know that im just saying snoke never had a lightsaber

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#35 frozen  Moderator

@bruhmoment6: How did he never have one if Kylo used it? We never Snoke use one though, if that's what you mean.

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@frozen said:

@bruhmoment6: How did he never have one if Kylo used it? We never Snoke use one though, if that's what you mean.

what are you saying?

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Snoke was disgustingly disappointing.

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#38 frozen  Moderator

@frozen said:

@bruhmoment6: How did he never have one if Kylo used it? We never Snoke use one though, if that's what you mean.

what are you saying?

?

You said "when did Snoke ever have a lightsaber". I answered that by saying he had one in the film.

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@frozen said:

@bruhmoment6: How did he never have one if Kylo used it? We never Snoke use one though, if that's what you mean.

what are you saying?

That we never saw Snoke with a lightsaber.

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#40  Edited By bruhmoment6

@frozen said:
@bruhmoment6 said:
@frozen said:

@bruhmoment6: How did he never have one if Kylo used it? We never Snoke use one though, if that's what you mean.

what are you saying?

?

You said "when did Snoke ever have a lightsaber". I answered that by saying he had one in the film.

what he was never shown with his own lightsaber not reys lightsaber

also he was killed by reys lightsaber

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#41  Edited By frozen  Moderator
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Vader Destroys Snoke, just like he would destroys the Jedi masters of old during the clone wars era.

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Vader he’s the most powerful force user bar Yoda Palpatine and Perhaps Mace

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It’s pretty much impossible to say who’s more powerful between these two, Snoke doesn’t have enough feats. But I’ll go with Vader since the power gap probably isn’t that great even if Snoke is more powerful and Snoke is useless in a duel.

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@frozen: @dathvada: Its pretty much saying Sidious is a different beast from Luke entirely, but not 'more powerful'

Someone who's only encountered apples finds an orange for the first time, etc.

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#47 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: @dathvada: Its pretty much saying Sidious is a different beast from Luke entirely, but not 'more powerful'

Someone who's only encountered apples finds an orange for the first time, etc.

Agreed. I believe the full passages make that clear for sure.

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@mo_ali said:

Vader he’s the most powerful force user bar Yoda Palpatine and Perhaps Mace

He more powerful than Yoda, and Mace, It depends on which Palpatine your referring to. If it's ROTS Sidious Vader beat him.

OT ESB and ROTJ Sidious than he wins due to being more powerful than Vader.

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@frozen: Also it would be pretty bad for a force ghost of a Luke that's inferior to zombie Sidious to dance around Kylo like he did in EP 8.

We already disputed it, but:

ROTS Sidious >> Zombie Sidious > Luke >> Kylo = Rey

lol

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@mygod000: I’d assume Palpatine>=Yoda but in this battle itself Vader ragdolls snoke