Shadow of Revan (Legends)
VS
Suited Darth Vader (Legends)
Location:
Same starting distance in Maul VS Ahsoka.
Both sides are at their best.
Scenario 1: In-Character
Scenario 2: Bloodlusted
Round 1: Sabers Only
Round 2: Force Only
Round 3: All-Out
Darth Vader Vs Shadow of Revan
@redsithdisciple said:
@dreamer016: Even if, Revan > Kun is retconned by Kun having scaling chains over Revan via scaling above Ulic who has quotes placing him above Vitiate who one-shot Revan as soon as he started to fight seriously.
"Now he sought out the only other Sith practicioner who could challenge him-- Ulic Qel-Droma"
- Star Wars Databank
--
I'm not very familiar with the TOR timeline, but is that quote from the same point in time as the Revan Novel?
And it seems like its from Kun's perspective since he's the one thinking that Ulic is the only one who can challenge him and seeking him out based on that. If Kun knew about a Sith Lord with an entire Empire under his command he should be identifying that as a possible threat regardless of the Sith's personal power - ergo Ulic being regarded as the only threat to his rule or the only one worth seeking out doesn't really make sense if Vitiate is around.
Also, I wouldn't really call that one-shotting since Revan at least survived the attack. Vitiate's fully charged lightning would've normally pulverized Revan's body, so this means that he somewhat succesfully defended against it with his Force barrier.
@redsithdisciple said:
Vader also has statements putting him at ROTJ Sidious level, someone infinitely more powerful than Revan.
“Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long.”
- Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the force
--
You fight with Vader, but there is no way that you can beat him. He is second only to the Emperor in power. As a warrior, he is second to none. You have no chance.
- Star Wars: Return of the Jedi: Decide Your Destiny
--
Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side.
- Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine
Sure, Vader is a greater "warrior" than the Emperor, likely refering to their duelling skill, is equally formidable to him in an ambigous context and is "strong enough" to kill him the way he did in ROTJ but not a worthy succesor.
Sidious is likewise suggested to be (vastly) more powerful than Vader by a fairly staggering amount of evidence. It's a very source-depending stance tbh.
My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."
"I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him into some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that.
-Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay;
--
I'm not very familiar with the TOR timeline, but is that quote from the same point in time as the Revan Novel?
It's not during the Novel, but Vitiate was alive during Kun's era, so it does bind to him.
And it seems like its from Kun's perspective since he's the one thinking that Ulic is the only one who can challenge him and seeking him out based on that. If Kun knew about a Sith Lord with an entire Empire under his command he should be identifying that as a possible threat regardless of the Sith's personal power - ergo Ulic being regarded as the only threat to his rule or the only one worth seeking out doesn't really make sense if Vitiate is around.
If it was from Kun's perspective, it would've either been in first-person or it would've said something like "Kun sought out the only other practitioner he knew of who could challenge him." Not the case here. This quote is also said in the context of Kun's Sith power, so it really cannot be referring to the empire as a whole.
Also, I wouldn't really call that one-shotting since Revan at least survived the attack. Vitiate's fully charged lightning would've normally pulverized Revan's body, so this means that he somewhat succesfully defended against it with his Force barrier.
The excerpt disagrees. The novel makes it very clear that Revan would've died if T3 hadn't interfered, adding in how Revan's flesh literally started burning and melting within the first second of the lightning, and how he was barely even conscious after being saved.
Sure, Vader is a greater "warrior" than the Emperor, likely refering to their duelling skill, is equally formidable to him in an ambigous context and is "strong enough" to kill him the way he did in ROTJ but not a worthy succesor.
Warrior just means combatant as a whole. The way I personally interpret this is in a direct face-to-face confrontation, Vader would emerge victorious. As for the "formidable" part, this quote was said in the context of Sidious's conquest, so it really cannot be referring to anything other than Vader's own conquests, further proving his skills as a warrior. The third quote says that Vader was strong enough to kill him, but not yet ready to rule the empire, and rightfully so.
Sidious is likewise suggested to be (vastly) more powerful than Vader by a fairly staggering amount of evidence. It's a very source-depending stance tbh.
Both of these sources are incredibly outdated, and what George says in random interviews isn't canon per both CV policy and Matt Martin. Besides, we have more sources putting them close to each other.
Seen as though the pre Disney acquisition LFL hierarchy system (G canon, C canon etc) was phased out as early as 2012 (per Leland Chee), it will not apply here. Therefore, G canon will not have supremacy. Although Lucas is still a filmmaker so his WoG can apply when it pertains to his own films, but not the wider verse
@crclopezos:Sorry but statements are just as valid as feats. But fine if you really do want to just base it off of feats, I'll play your game. Vader has feats that rival SoR Revan's, namely casually holding his own against 8 Jedi while both massively pre-prime and still adapting to his suit.
Gallery
Plagueis, besides having the supremacy quote, also has planetary feats, just like Nihilus and Vitiate, just by visiting the place.
"Later it would be said by Naboo and Gungan alike that they couldn’t recall a colder winter than the one that followed Hego Damask’s autumnal visit to their world. The rivers and even the falls below Theed froze; the rolling plains and tall forests were blanketed three meters deep with snow; plasmic quakes rocked the Gallo Mountains and the Lake Country, the Holy Places and the undersea city of Otoh Gunga; and many of the egresses of the underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes."
- Darth Plagueis Novel
@ils:
I'm curious why you refuse to take these quotes hyper-literally and are willing to cite contradictory evidence (like feats/scaling) to refute them
There's a difference between interpreting a quote hyper-literally and interpreting a quote the way it's supposed to be. Besides, how is this contradictory?
but won't do the same with this? A quote that predates Vitiate's existence, and has no shortage of contradictory evidence, like
A source that came out in 2014 predates Vitiate's existence? Right.
The Wizards of the Coast Malak > Kun Quote
Not canon
The endless SWTOR: Encyclopedia Vitiate supremacy quotes
All of which predate the Databank
A simple comparison of feats - Vitiate overpowering Revan Reborn, who in turn ashed Nyriss, and is above his KOTOR self who defeated Malak on the Star Forge after fighting a gauntlet of its infinite armies and dark side acolytes, Malak himself pegged at being around Darth Revan's level of power, Darth Revan being the more powerful version of Mandalorian Wars Revan who was widely believed (by people who knew about Ulic and Kun such as Vrook Lamar) to be the greatest Jedi in generations and of his age... versus... what? Beating Amanoa and Ommin? Destroying the defenceless spirit of Nadd? Ulic being pegged at maybe = some of the TotJ masters?
A. He had help from 2 Ebon Hawk crewmates during the SF gauntlet, with the only other solo fight besides Malak being against a conflicted Bastila
B. Other than the fact that these are character opinions, easily overrideable by third-person omniscient sources, and the Kun/Ulic I'm talking about are Sith?
C. Feats are only one half of the eggshell. Statements also need to be taken into account, only invalidated if they blatantly contradict the actual story.
You seriously think pre-Sith Ulic and Kun, two relative novices where the dark side is concerned, are above the 1,000 year old "godlike" "most powerful Force user in history" who consumed an entire planet + 8,000 Sith Lords worth of Force energy? Because of one throwaway line that wasn't, and couldn't possibly, have been directed at Vitiate?
Again, I'm talking about Sith Kun/Ulic. And no Vitiate is not the most powerful force user ever, not even top 3, the most powerful force user is Luke, no matter how much Old Republic fanboys hate that. Sidious has post-SWTOR Encylopedia supremacy quotes, so the Vitiate quotes would be retconned regardless. And sorry that your favorite character isn't as powerful as you wish he was, but these are simply the facts.
There's a difference between interpreting a quote hyper-literally and interpreting a quote the way it's supposed to be.
Yes... there is. And in this case you're doing the former.
Besides, how is this contradictory?
Is it not obvious? Alright, I guess I'll spell it out for you:
This was you: "Quotes for person A being more powerful than person B does not include when person B was amped. Following this logic, ROTJ Vader is more powerful than both the Son and Daughter combined."
This is an appeal to not take quotes hyper-literally but to take the quote in its proper and surrounding context.
This was also you: "Even if, Revan > Kun is retconned by Kun having scaling chains over Revan"
This is an appeal to contradict a statement by bringing in superior evidence, including feats and other statements. This means, according to you, statements are not absolute in of themselves but can be contradicted by other evidence.
This means that, per your logic, a statement isn't binding and can be overturned with both context and superior evidence. The contradiction lies in the fact that the quote you're citing for pre-Sith Ulic and Kun is extremely weak in the face of superior evidence, and that doesn't seem to bother you.
A source that came out in 2014 predates Vitiate's existence? Right.
You think that quote "came out in 2014?"
The quote was published in 2002 and the databank simply never changed since then.
The quote was not originally written to include Vitiate because he didn't even exist at the time it was written. Unless you can prove there was clear intent to capture Vitiate in the quote?
Moreover, the quote can be refuted on the simple basis of context. The entire databank on Ulic is just a synopsis of Tales of the Jedi - it doesn't refer to any other EU work much less SWTOR. Moreover, the quote can easily be taken as summarising Kun's perspective - Kun is seeking out the one other Sith Practitioner he knows of who could challenge him. He doesn't even know Vitiate exists.
Moreover, the idea that Vitiate couldn't even "challenge" Kun is hilarious and plainly contradicted by the fact Vitiate's feats are far better, especially given that we're talking about pre-DLOTS Kun. The quote is clearly written from a TotJ-centric perspective wherein, as far as that story and Kun himself is concerned, Ulic is the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him. Kun "sought out the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him" - this isn't saying Ulic is the only other Sith alive who could challenge Kun, it's saying that Kun is seeking the only other Sith who could challenge him, because, as far as Kun knows, Ulic is the only one. Kun doesn't know Vitiate exists, so it would be impossible for him to seek him out - and it's a good thing he didn't try!
Not canon
Neither is anything from Legends. That's a tweet from Matt Martin in the year 2020 answering the question "Are statements from wizards of the coast binding facts or not?" - Wizards of the Coast, along with the entire pre-Disney EU, is now legends, in other words not canon, and that is what Martin is answering. Martin is not saying WotC is non-canon to Legends. Martin was in charge of sw.com, did not have any authority over the EU pre-disney buyout, does not currently have any authority over Legends itself (per his own admission) and is not even talking about the pre-Disney EU in that tweet.
It's sad that things this painfully obvious need to be pointed out to people in the year 2023.
All of which predate the Databank
Aside from the fact you're citing a 2002 quote, there's also the issue of the superior relevance of the SWTOR: Encyclopedia. It was co-written by a group of many of the most trusted/respected/seasoned EU authors and refers to Kun himself inside, and despite obviously being aware of Kun and his exploits, it still decided to say this about Vitiate:
"The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed."
SWTOR: Encyclopedia
Unlike with your quote, which was originally written before Vitiate existed, these two were written not only after Kun existed, but in a book that refers to Kun numerous times, written by people who know full well how powerful Kun is.
A. He had help from 2 Ebon Hawk crewmates during the SF gauntlet, with the only other solo fight besides Malak being against a conflicted Bastila
I'm sorry, but considering the point I was making was that Revan had to fight an army as a gauntlet before fighting Malak himself, why do you think that fundamental point is changed just because Revan had two companions with him? Did he not fight through the Star Forge before facing Malak, and did he not face Malak by himself? Try to stay on topic if you can manage it!
Moreover, the army Malak threw at Revan was so powerful that Malak expected it would have been enough to destroy Darth Revan, and when he finds out that KOTOR Revan has beaten it, he concludes that Revan must have surpassed his former power (suggesting that even with his allies there the gauntlet was no walk in the park!). Malak does not care in the slightest about the presence of Revan's allies when making that statement, so again, try to do less nitpicking until you understand the sources you're citing!
B. Other than the fact that these are character opinions, easily overrideable by third-person omniscient sources,
Character opinions are a piece of evidence like any other which needs to be weighed. There is no piece of evidence in SW which "overrides" other pieces of evidence, something stated by Leland Chee many times - there are no definitive or absolute power levels or statements, even the most clear-cut supremacy quotes are ultimately subjective and not absolute.
A source being "third-person omniscient" is only relevant insofar as the "omniscient" narrator knows about the character you're trying to use the quote against, and as discussed already, Vitiate didn't yet exist when that quote was written in 2002.
and the Kun/Ulic I'm talking about are Sith?
Guess who just takes quotes from respect threads without reading the source for themselves? This guy does!
If you had bothered to read the databank entry for yourself you would have realized the quote is written about "Sith initiate" Kun and Ulic.
You seriously thought the quote referred to Kun and Ulic as Dark Lords of the Sith. Have you even read Tales of the Jedi? Because if you had, you would have easily been able to gather from the context of the just the sentence by itself that when Kun "sought out" Ulic it was a reference to their first lightsaber duel when they were both mere "initiates."
C. Feats are only one half of the eggshell. Statements also need to be taken into account,
Correct! And in this case, Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #6 Ulic Qel-Droma has approximately one statement which, in all likelihood, isn't even referring to any Sith outside of Tales of the Jedi, much less Sith who didn't exist yet like Vitiate.
Meanwhile, Vitiate has a plethora, nay, an entire career worth of statements, feats and scaling which either directly prove or very strongly suggest that he is above a version of Ulic Qel-Droma whose expertise with the dark side up to that point in time included picking up a dark side amulet for five minutes, getting angry and sperging out at Nomi Sunrider! Vitiate has Sith spirits and superweapons in his vaults more powerful than Ulic's amulet that he keeps around as playthings!
only invalidated if they blatantly contradict the actual story.
Any statement can be challenged or contradicted by any other form of evidence. You don't need to retcon the statement outright, because no statement is absolute in of itself. Again, that's straight from Leland Chee.
Again, I'm talking about Sith Kun/Ulic.
I think you should fully read the sources you're pasting from other people's respect threads before you try to talk about anything in the future.
And no Vitiate is not the most powerful force user ever, not even top 3,
I didn't claim he was, nor do I think he is - but, the SWTOR:E claims he is the most powerful Force user in history and the most powerful practitioner of the Sith arts in history, despite Kun being referenced in the same book. And that's what I was referring to.
the most powerful force user is Luke, no matter how much Old Republic fanboys hate that. Sidious has post-SWTOR Encylopedia supremacy quotes, so the Vitiate quotes would be retconned regardless. And sorry that your favorite character isn't as powerful as you wish he was, but these are simply the facts.
Ready for the worst part?
You've assumed that because I chose to debunk your absolutely god-awful that Vitiate is my "favorite character" and that I'm an "Old Republic fanboy."
I've got news for you: I don't even like Vitiate. I don't even like SWTOR. Vitiate is a god-awful character, terribly written, and SWTOR is a heap of shit where storytelling is concerned. Nearly all of my favourite Star Wars characters are from the prequel era or further in the timeline. Ironically, one of the only "favourite characters" I have from the Old Republic era is Ulic Qel-Droma. And yet, here's me, someone who thinks Ulic is a great character and Vitiate is a pile of shit, arguing that the pile of shit is more powerful.
Do you know why that is? Because one does not need to be anything close to a "fanboy" just to refute your dumpster fire of an argument... they just need to have a basic grasp of logic and common sense. Your argument was simply so stupid that it compelled me to defend characters I don't even like or simply don't care about in the slightest against characters I actually like, such as Ulic.
Ask any of the dozens within the SW debating community over the many years I've been here if they think Vitiate is my favourite character and SWTOR is my favourite era. You will realize how painfully, painfully stupid your statement was, retract it immediately, and then do the right thing and apologise to me for even thinking of accusing me of something as heinous as being a Vitiate fanboy. If I'm feeling superhumanly merciful I might be able to forgive such a mind-bending insult.
@ils:
Yes... there is. And in this case you're doing the former.
Hardly
This is an appeal to contradict a statement by bringing in superior evidence, including feats and other statements. This means, according to you, statements are not absolute in of themselves but can be contradicted by other evidence.
That is not at all what I said. I said quotes are invalid if they blatantly contradict the actual story, or if they're contradicted by newer, more recent statements.
The quote was published in2002and the databank simply never changed since then.
My bad. I tend to notice what Google says a lot more than small boxes in the corner.
Moreover, the quote can be refuted on the simple basis of context.The entire databank on Ulic is just a synopsis of Tales of the Jedi- it doesn't refer to any other EU work much less SWTOR. Moreover, the quote can easily be taken as summarising Kun's perspective - Kun is seeking out the one other Sith Practitioner he knows of who could challenge him. He doesn't even know Vitiate exists.
This is bullshit logic. If we adhere to this, the SWTOR encyclopedia stating Vitiate to be the most powerful force user does not bind to Sidious as it does not feature any SW content he appears in.
Moreover, the idea that Vitiate couldn't even "challenge" Kun is hilarious and plainly contradicted by the fact Vitiate's feats are far better, especially given that we're talking about pre-DLOTS Kun. The quote isclearlywritten from a TotJ-centric perspective wherein, as far as that story and Kun himself is concerned, Ulicisthe only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him. Kun"sought out the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him" -this isn't saying Ulic is the only other Sith alive who could challenge Kun, it's saying that Kun is seeking the only other Sith who could challenge him, because, as far as Kun knows, Ulic is the only one. Kun doesn't know Vitiate exists,so it would be impossible for him to seek him out - and it's a good thing he didn't try!
Except the quote did not say that. At this point, you're straight-up adding stuff to the quote to try to invalidate it, even though you already did so with the date.
Neither is anything from Legends. That's a tweet from Matt Martin in the year 2020 answering the question"Are statements from wizards of the coast binding facts or not?"- Wizards of the Coast, along with the entire pre-Disney EU,is now legends, in other wordsnot canon,and that is what Martin is answering.Martin is not saying WotC is non-canon to Legends.Martin was in charge of sw.com, did not have any authority over the EU pre-disney buyout, does not currently have any authority over Legends itself (per his own admission) andis not even talking about the pre-Disney EU in that tweet.
Other than the fact that the OP was just asking if the quote was factual or not? Why would Matt just randomly say it's not canon if he was just referring to the continuity. Besides, Martin has clarified EU matters after saying he wasn't an authority, as well as his own biography stating that he has authority on the continuity, just like Leland Chee.
Aside from the fact you're citing a 2002 quote, there's also the issue of the superior relevance of the SWTOR: Encyclopedia. It was co-written by a group of many of the most trusted/respected/seasoned EU authors and refers to Kun himself inside, and despite obviously being aware of Kun and his exploits, it still decided to say this about Vitiate:
Retconned by both Jedi Battles and Force and Destiny, which re-establish Sidious's supremacy over Vitiate.
"When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style."
- Jedi Battles
--
"His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith."
- Force & Destiny
__
I'm sorry, but consideringthe point I was making was that Revan had to fight an army as a gauntlet before fighting Malak himself,why do you think that fundamental point is changed just because Revan had two companions with him? Did he not fight through the Star Forge before facing Malak, and did he not face Malak by himself? Try to stay on topic if you can manage it!
An army fought with two Ebon Hawk crewmates as well as a bunch of other Jedi, the latter of which you conveniently didn't acknowledge.
Moreover, the army Malak threw at Revan was so powerful that Malak expected it would have been enough to destroy Darth Revan, and when he finds out that KOTOR Revan has beaten it, he concludes that Revan must have surpassed his former power (suggesting that even with his allies there the gauntlet was no walk in the park!). Malak does not care in the slightest about the presence of Revan's allies when making that statement, so again, try to do less nitpicking until you understand the sources you're citing!
Other than the fact that as soon as he found Revan was the Jedi, he concluded that that was why the droids failed. He fully expected the army to fail, especially when he straight-up admitted that the apprentices and the rest of the SF forces would only be enough to stall Revan so moreover, it's just ironic that you tell me I don't understand the sources I'm citing.
Character opinions are a piece of evidence like any other which needs to be weighed. There is no piece of evidence in SW which "overrides" other pieces of evidence, something stated by Leland Chee many times - there are no definitive or absolute power levels or statements, even the most clear-cut supremacy quotes are ultimately subjective and not absolute.
If you truly believe this, then why were you suggesting that Pre-Ziost Vitiate is above even DE Sidious and GM Luke just based off statements which you claim to be written by EU scholars, even though anyone with an IQ above 10 knows full-well that both characters are infinitely more powerful than Pre-Ziost Vitiate.
You seriously thought the quote referred to Kun and Ulic as Dark Lords of the Sith. Have you even read Tales of the Jedi? Because if you had, you would have easily been able to gather from the context of the just the sentence by itself that when Kun "sought out" Ulic it was a reference to their first lightsaber duel when they were both mere "initiates."
When the hell did I say Dark Lords of the Sith? I just said "Sith", which is what your quote backs up. Kun is now a Sith initiate, and Ulic is also a Sith practitioner.
Any statement can be challenged or contradicted by any other form of evidence. You don't need to retcon the statement outright, because no statement is absolute in of itself. Again, that's straight from Leland Chee.
Then maybe you should apply this mindset to Vitiate's supremacy quotes. Oh wait, you don't because in typical Vitiate support group fashion, statements are questionable sources if they don't back-up Pro-Vitiate arguments.
I think you should fully read the sources you're pasting from other people's respect threads before you try to talk about anything in the future.
So ironic you say that yet you yourself have provided outdated quotes to back-up your argument, so do not role-play as some god and act like you're so much better than me.
I didn't claim he was, nor do I think he is - but, the SWTOR:E claims he is the most powerful Force user in history and the most powerful practitioner of the Sith arts in history, despite Kun being referenced in the same book. And that's what I was referring to.
Good to know we agree on something here.
I've got news for you: I don't even like Vitiate. I don't even like SWTOR. Vitiate is a god-awful character, terribly written, and SWTOR is a heap of shit where storytelling is concerned. Nearly all of my favourite Star Wars characters are from the prequel era or further in the timeline. Ironically, one of the only "favourite characters" I have from the Old Republic erais Ulic Qel-Droma.And yet, here's me, someone who thinks Ulic is a great character and Vitiate is a pile of shit, arguing that the pile of shit is more powerful.
I agree. Vitiate is a Palpatine rip-off and to hell with Bioware for trying to make Vitiate more powerful than Palpatine and even Luke.
Do you know why that is? Because one does not need to be anything close to a "fanboy" just to refute your dumpster fire of an argument... they just need to have a basic grasp of logic and common sense.Your argument was simply so stupid that it compelled me to defend characters I don't even likeor simply don't care about in the slightest against characters I actually like, such as Ulic.
Calling an argument that uses outdated quotes dumpster fire and then trying to counter it with your own outdated quotes just makes your argument dumpster fire as well, so you kind of put yourself in that hole, my dear.
Ask any of the dozens within the SW debating community over the many years I've been here if they think Vitiate is my favourite character and SWTOR is my favourite era. You will realize how painfully, painfully stupid your statement was, retract it immediately, and then do the right thing and apologise to me for even thinking of accusing me of something as heinous as being a Vitiate fanboy. If I'm feeling superhumanly merciful I might be able to forgive such a mind-bending insult.
LOL you really think you're some sort of god, don't you? I got news for you, friend. You are just a regular person and there's N-O-T-H-I-N-G special about you. You got that? I don't know what disabled in your brain to not only think of something so retarded, but to also type it out for anyone who comes to this thread to read it, and the fact that you actually expect me to apologize despite the fact that you were the first one who started spouting insults is something I simply cannot believe came from another human being.
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