Darth Vader VS Revan

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ParagonNate

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This version of Revan gets Vader's boot so far up his backside that he's going to be tasting Vader's heel for a month.

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RedHeathen

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#353  Edited By RedHeathen

If canon is included...

Sidious is the most powerful Sith to have ever lived. And then there was Vader, who is now canonically the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. (Jedi: Fallen Order bio)

Of course there was the canonical saber ranking placing Vader first.

I do love Canon Vader.

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MyGod000

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Legends Vader is more powerful than Revan. there is no evidence that Revan at any point in time could beat ROTJ Vader.

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deactivated-5e72183304ce6

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@redheathen: Well in canon, Revan exists by name only, and you know how clunky scaling canon and legends together is. In legends, Revan scales via a multitude of sources above powers that Vader cannot begin to fathom (Ziost, Kun, etc), has incredible durability (Sion-like durability, to the point that he tanks several saber blows and blaster shots), sorcery haxx (which work regardless of power, given JA Kun vs Luke) and far, far better tactical knowledge (where Luke could scarcely predict a battle around 2-3 steps in advance, Revan was better than a foe that could predict one minutes in advance).

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RedHeathen

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#357  Edited By RedHeathen

@idrisiangraecus said:

@redheathen: Well in canon, Revan exists by name only, and you know how clunky scaling canon and legends together is. In legends, Revan scales via a multitude of sources above powers that Vader cannot begin to fathom (Ziost, Kun, etc), has incredible durability (Sion-like durability, to the point that he tanks several saber blows and blaster shots), sorcery haxx (which work regardless of power, given JA Kun vs Luke) and far, far better tactical knowledge (where Luke could scarcely predict a battle around 2-3 steps in advance, Revan was better than a foe that could predict one minutes in advance).

It's not really clunky scaling considering that for sure in canon and in Legends Sidious was many times said to be the most powerful of all. He was the culmination of the Sith's power.

Last night I watched a lightsaber featurette with a Lucas interview. Lucas said the prequel era was the Jedi at their absolute best, ever. The height of their power. (paraphrasing) This should be true for the Sith as well based on a multitude of other quotes.

Add to all these a quote from the novel, Tarkin:

No Caption Provided

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.

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You can't rely on feats alone. Chee and Martin have both said duels and feats are story driven and you can't determine who is better or more skilled than whom based on them.

------------------------------

"...Vader cannot begin to fathom..."

Rebels season 4 - What Sidious does with Ahsoka and Ezra...

Ep IX - What Sidious does with Snoke and how long he has lived...

Ep VIII - Snoke's control and mind bridging of Rey and Ren...

...and you don't think Vader can begin to fathom great power?

In Legends, Sidious had those dudes' holocrons. He knew their abilities. He and his master expounded upon them. His apprentices had access to all that as well.

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deactivated-5e72183304ce6

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@redheathen: The problem with cross-scaling canon and legends is the fact that they are fundamentally different continuities. You can't say that Canon Vader and Legends Vader scale similarly. I mean, I doubt that Legends Vader has a concept of power on the scale of Ziost, and you've been on SI before, you've seen the stuff that Vader has to put him down. He has quotes that say that the Royal Guards are "almost a match" for him, he scales low via kaiburr (1000x amp compared to Sadow), etc.

If you argue that because Canon Vader's prime is Rebels, therefore Legends Vader's prime is around that timeframe you're fundamentally incorrect (obviously Vader's prime in Legends is Knightfall, etc). The "Vader cannot begin to fathom" line wasn't in reference to what he could literally not fathom, but rather the amount of power that he could muster (and I'm fairly certain that Sidious' collection of holocrons was incomplete because Gravid and the time that Plagueis thought that Kun had only TPed select members of the senate as opposed to the entire body).

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El_mago

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@redheathen: The problem with cross-scaling canon and legends is the fact that they are fundamentally different continuities. You can't say that Canon Vader and Legends Vader scale similarly. I mean, I doubt that Legends Vader has a concept of power on the scale of Ziost, and you've been on SI before, you've seen the stuff that Vader has to put him down. He has quotes that say that the Royal Guards are "almost a match" for him, he scales low via kaiburr (1000x amp compared to Sadow), etc.

If you argue that because Canon Vader's prime is Rebels, therefore Legends Vader's prime is around that timeframe you're fundamentally incorrect (obviously Vader's prime in Legends is Knightfall, etc). The "Vader cannot begin to fathom" line wasn't in reference to what he could literally not fathom, but rather the amount of power that he could muster (and I'm fairly certain that Sidious' collection of holocrons was incomplete because Gravid and the time that Plagueis thought that Kun had only TPed select members of the senate as opposed to the entire body).

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MyGod000

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When you think that Guy can't Downplay Vader any lower he amazes you and manages to do so. His downplay is Horrifically bad, not on Han-Solo Downplay DBZ because at least he good with his.

This is just nonsense, It's had already stated that Vader is light years above Sidious Guards, everyone that Revan Fought would lose to ROTJ Vader.

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RedHeathen

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#361  Edited By RedHeathen

@idrisiangraecus said:

@redheathen: The problem with cross-scaling canon and legends is the fact that they are fundamentally different continuities. You can't say that Canon Vader and Legends Vader scale similarly. I mean, I doubt that Legends Vader has a concept of power on the scale of Ziost, and you've been on SI before, you've seen the stuff that Vader has to put him down. He has quotes that say that the Royal Guards are "almost a match" for him, he scales low via kaiburr (1000x amp compared to Sadow), etc.

If you argue that because Canon Vader's prime is Rebels, therefore Legends Vader's prime is around that timeframe you're fundamentally incorrect (obviously Vader's prime in Legends is Knightfall, etc). The "Vader cannot begin to fathom" line wasn't in reference to what he could literally not fathom, but rather the amount of power that he could muster (and I'm fairly certain that Sidious' collection of holocrons was incomplete because Gravid and the time that Plagueis thought that Kun had only TPed select members of the senate as opposed to the entire body).

The OP didn't say Legends, Canon, or Composite. So I'm merely adding canon Vader will defeat Revan.

Sidious and Plagueis got the Sith archive pretty back to where it was and then added to it. It's in the same book.

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RedHeathen

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@el_mago said:
No Caption Provided
@mygod000 said:

When you think that Guy can't Downplay Vader any lower he amazes you and manages to do so. His downplay is Horrifically bad, not on Han-Solo Downplay DBZ because at least he good with his.

This is just nonsense, It's had already stated that Vader is light years above Sidious Guards, everyone that Revan Fought would lose to ROTJ Vader.

No Caption Provided

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Void_Reborn

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Bump

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Necromancer76

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Vader would defeat Revan Reborn from the novel.

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Void_Reborn

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@necromancer76: How do you think all of Revan's versions stack against one another?

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Freddyscomingforyou

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darth vader wins.

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Bayman007

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Vader.

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The_Buddha_

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@bayman007:Why?

OT - Revan oneshots. I can see a convincing argument for MW Revan winning this.

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Bayman007

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Vader one-shots.

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The_Buddha_

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Bayman007

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Vader stomps.

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Necromancer76

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@void_reborn: Do you mean how do they rank compared to each other?

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Necromancer76

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@the_buddha_: He's a more skilled duelist and is in this version of Revan's same level of Force power

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The_Buddha_

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@necromancer76: How is he more skilled or powerful? This is the same Vader that’s sub-Jinn, someone who Revan scales above explicitly.

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Necromancer76

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@the_buddha_: I'm assuming you think Vader is sub-Jinn because of the whole Darth Maul thing? Despite the fact that ROTJ Vader is at the height of his powers and grew significantly through TFU and the OT

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The_Buddha_

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@necromancer76: ROTJ Vader is demonstrably inferior to Jinn via G-Canon, lol. The idea that he’s anywhere near KFV, or even TPM Maul is explicitly contradicted by the highest authority in Star Wars

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EmmaFrostXmen

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Vader has this

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Necromancer76

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#380  Edited By Necromancer76

@the_buddha_: Then I guess pre-ROTJ Sidious is now sub-Jinn and TPM Maul

Nice

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The_Buddha_

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@necromancer76: What?

“In every episode from 4, 5, and 6, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was that Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more, but at the same time he still wasn’t being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Featurette: Birth of the Lightsaber Featurette

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights

Since George Lucas set Episode I at a time when the Jedi Knights were at the height of their powers, Gillard ramped up the action, stunt work and, of course, lightsaber duels for the new film.

Starwars.com - Episode I Production Notes

“We will finally get to see Jedi do what Jedi were designed to do. In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine. The only other Jedi who comes along is Luke, who is sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Insider Magazine #35

“This is the hayday, the golden age of Jedi that exists in the world now, in Episode II.” - George Lucas

Making of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

"We're trying to go much more classical for some characters," says Gillard, "Some of the characters are real master swordsmen, better than anything we've seen so far. So we're using an old, classical European style for a couple of the characters." - Nick Gillard

Star Wars Homing Beacon #57

Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything.

Something many Star Wars fans had longed to see on screen - and were hoping for from the Prequels - were scenes of the massed ranks of the heroic Jedi in action. The original Trilogy had only given us a few examples; out-of-practice Obi-Wan, and the machine-like Darth Vader, while Luke Skywalker was the young hope for a new generation of Jedi.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #103

Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

"The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan."

George Lucas on Star Wars: The Phantom Menace’s Key Scenes (2019)

All quotes that portray Jinn as > ROTJ Vader, something corroborated by Resurrection. Your disdain and mockery of my views that don't portray Vader as powerful is something that's, quite honestly, ridiculous.

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The_Buddha_

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@the_buddha_: dueling skill advantage, and enough force power to not get dominated by the force

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King-Ragnar

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#384  Edited By King-Ragnar

Vader could legitimately one shot. Make it SoR Revan and you have a fair fight.

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Warlockmage

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Vader and its not even remotely close... maybe if its AnH Vader then Revan has a small chance.

but RoTJ Vader is gonna absolutely stomp him

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MyGod000

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@necromancer76: ROTJ Vader is demonstrably inferior to Jinn via G-Canon, lol. The idea that he’s anywhere near KFV, or even TPM Maul is explicitly contradicted by the highest authority in Star Wars

Only one G-canon Said that about Vader and that was 20+ years ago when George Lucas said all of that. His views over time changed on Vader, in fact during ROTS George Lucas stated that Vader in the suit during ROTS is 80% of ROTS Sidious full power.

That already contradicts his own Statements where you said Vader is inferior to Jinn.

Then, He later stated Sidious has always wanted someone who was more powerful than himself.

KF Vader>Mustafar Vader>=ROTS Sidious.

Vader being weaker than Anakin at his best doesn't demean him or mean that he isn't in Sidious league as statements already put Mustafar Hinder Vader above Sidious.

According to Sidious, Vader is his best apprentice which puts him above Dooku who is rival of Yoda, who fought nearly evenly with ROTS Sidious.

Vader is more powerful than Revan.

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Necromancer76

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#387  Edited By Necromancer76

@the_buddha_: "Your disdain and mockery"

Bruh

Anyway, none of that states Jinn is greater than Vader. All that says is that the Jedi were in their prime and the fights will be amped up a bit because Vader was half machine. This happens accordingly, as indicated by the extensive training the actors went through. None of this addresses Vader having inferior dueling skill or Force power. Why would Anakin just forget all of the techniques he learned because he was put in a suit?

Your scaling also puts Jinn above Starkiller who wasn't instantly killed by post-ROTS Sidious.

No need to degrade me if your logic is flawed.

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PaulPogba

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Vader stomps. Why did this reach 8 pages?

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Void_Reborn

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Oh for fucks sake. Enough with Vader being sub-Jinn. I swear to God.

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Void_Reborn

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Necromancer76

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@void_reborn: Sure thing. I'll elaborate on the relative sizes of each gap as well.

  • Mandalorian War Revan: His weakest version.
  • Darth Revan: Decent amount of growth because this is when he acquires most of his Sith powers and techniques.
  • Revan the Redeemed/KOTOR Revan: A considerable amount of growth here because previously, he lost to Darth Malak with Bastila's help but then went on to fight enemies through the energy-draining Star Forge for hours and subsequently defeated Malak on this nexus numerous times.
  • Revan Reborn/Novel Revan: Not as much growth here but this solidifies his mastery of both the light and dark sides of the Force, a feat really only replicated by GM Luke and considered impossible and insane to pursue by the likes of Darth Plagueis.
  • Foundry Revan: Can be considered part of Revan Reborn or his own thing. Not much here except for his asteroid feat.
  • Revan the Returned/SoR Revan: Astronomical power growth where Revan performs most of his best feats, such as resurrecting himself from the dead, teleporting, dominating the strike team via the overpowered force maelstrom/destruction, and contending with the strike team of all the player characters.
  • Prime Revan: Has never actually been seen because all of his feats have been performed either pre-prime or while weakened, including his SoR feats (because SoR Revan was only dark-side oriented and weakened himself by tanking a blast capable of wiping life on Yavin 4).

So, in this thread's case, I think that ROTJ Vader would defeat Revan Reborn/Novel Revan, but I think SoR Revan and Prime Revan would defeat ROTJ Vader.

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the_wspanialy

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Revan one-shots.

He scales so much above Vader it's not even funny. And I would love to see what makes Vader a better swordsman.

This should be closed.

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Void_Reborn

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@necromancer76: Thank you. That gives me more clarity on the situation and how his iterations stack up against one another.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@necromancer76: What?

“In every episode from 4, 5, and 6, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was that Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more, but at the same time he still wasn’t being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Featurette: Birth of the Lightsaber Featurette

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights

Since George Lucas set Episode I at a time when the Jedi Knights were at the height of their powers, Gillard ramped up the action, stunt work and, of course, lightsaber duels for the new film.

Starwars.com - Episode I Production Notes

“We will finally get to see Jedi do what Jedi were designed to do. In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine. The only other Jedi who comes along is Luke, who is sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Insider Magazine #35

“This is the hayday, the golden age of Jedi that exists in the world now, in Episode II.” - George Lucas

Making of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

"We're trying to go much more classical for some characters," says Gillard, "Some of the characters are real master swordsmen, better than anything we've seen so far. So we're using an old, classical European style for a couple of the characters." - Nick Gillard

Star Wars Homing Beacon #57

Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything.

Something many Star Wars fans had longed to see on screen - and were hoping for from the Prequels - were scenes of the massed ranks of the heroic Jedi in action. The original Trilogy had only given us a few examples; out-of-practice Obi-Wan, and the machine-like Darth Vader, while Luke Skywalker was the young hope for a new generation of Jedi.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #103

Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

"The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan."

George Lucas on Star Wars: The Phantom Menace’s Key Scenes (2019)

All quotes that portray Jinn as > ROTJ Vader, something corroborated by Resurrection. Your disdain and mockery of my views that don't portray Vader as powerful is something that's, quite honestly, ridiculous.

While I see where you're coming from, all of the quotes that are from Lucas are either referencing the style of combat as it correlates to the physical state of the fighter(weak old men like Ben, or clunky cyborgs like Vader), or just the Jedi Order as a whole.

If I argued for Vader being sub-Jinn, I would do so on the basis of Jinn noticeably outperforming Vader against TPM Maul, with the latter even presenting his accomplishment of besting Jinn as a reason why Vader has no chance of prevailing.

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The_Buddha_

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@lord_tenebrous: Well, Lucas is using the choreography and the style of the combat to show how the PT Jedi are better than the OT ones. Lucas specifically says that "we haven't seen anything", in regards to PT v OT in combat.

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Brightsteel

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Necromancer76

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Brightsteel

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MyGod000

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@void_reborn: Sure thing. I'll elaborate on the relative sizes of each gap as well.

  • Mandalorian War Revan: His weakest version.
  • Darth Revan: Decent amount of growth because this is when he acquires most of his Sith powers and techniques.
  • Revan the Redeemed/KOTOR Revan: A considerable amount of growth here because previously, he lost to Darth Malak with Bastila's help but then went on to fight enemies through the energy-draining Star Forge for hours and subsequently defeated Malak on this nexus numerous times.
  • Revan Reborn/Novel Revan: Not as much growth here but this solidifies his mastery of both the light and dark sides of the Force, a feat really only replicated by GM Luke and considered impossible and insane to pursue by the likes of Darth Plagueis.
  • Foundry Revan: Can be considered part of Revan Reborn or his own thing. Not much here except for his asteroid feat.
  • Revan the Returned/SoR Revan: Astronomical power growth where Revan performs most of his best feats, such as resurrecting himself from the dead, teleporting, dominating the strike team via the overpowered force maelstrom/destruction, and contending with the strike team of all the player characters.
  • Prime Revan: Has never actually been seen because all of his feats have been performed either pre-prime or while weakened, including his SoR feats (because SoR Revan was only dark-side oriented and weakened himself by tanking a blast capable of wiping life on Yavin 4).

So, in this thread's case, I think that ROTJ Vader would defeat Revan Reborn/Novel Revan, but I think SoR Revan and Prime Revan would defeat ROTJ Vader.

He wouldn't. Vader in the force had surpassed TFU Sidious when he was able to ragdoll a much more powerful Starkiller then the one who was able to grab Post ROTS Sidious Force lightning and force him into depression and fueled by all his hate.

TFU 2 Vader>TFU Sidious max power>ROTS Sidious max power>Yoda>Revan.

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Warlockmage

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imagine using choreography to say RoTJ Vader is sub TPM Jinn? that's absolutely baffling and just atrocious reasoning.

Vader still wrecks Revan's shit... like badly.