Darth Vader VS Revan

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@el_mago: There’s no evidence on his part. He has one post in which he can’t add new arguments.

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El_mago

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@idrisiangraecus: dude vader as a character have a amount of arguments in his favor that its not even funny does dark times,guides,author statements,complete encyclopedia etc ring a bell?

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@el_mago: Yet he can’t beat ROTJ Luke?

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El_mago

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#304  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: vader was mentally hindered and luke was being constantly using the dark side,the duel finish after the son of skywalker got a zonakin style amped and trashed vader so in normal circumstances their equals,also why bringing luke if we discussing vader in here?

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MyGod000

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#305  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@el_mago: Yet he can’t beat ROTJ Luke?

LMFAO that is always your argument against Vader and you were just insulting another member saying "They didn't bring anything new to the debate" yet you haven't brought anything new at all to the debate either.

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Vader was completely hindered in his fight with Luke not only that it stated in legends that Vader was never going to kill his son anyways.

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Luke was using and abusing the Dark side in his fight with Vader.

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MyGod000

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@idrisiangraecus:

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Stated Luke was using the Dark side against Vader a Hindered Vader who wasn't even trying to kill Luke but turn him and make him join him and Sidious.

Vader>>>>>>>Revan>Malak

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@mygod000: I engaged in a CaV with another debater (different site though) in which I was claiming I won (a Malak vs. Vader one), which I did win as he conceded.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000: I engaged in a CaV with another debater (different site though) in which I was claiming I won (a Malak vs. Vader one), which I did win as he conceded.

Right now, you are debating Revan Vs Vader and As it is Vader is much more powerful than any version of Revan.

You just argued in another thread that Revan>Malak. therefore, Logic has it Vader>Revan>Malak.

That is without taking into account that Vader has been in lockStep with Sidious in power even up til ROTJ.

ROTJ Sidious>>>>>Any Version of Vitiate>Any Version of Revan

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@mygod000: Yet Revan is more powerful than Vader. That's my viewpoint, and I don't wish to argue with you as your pride is too irritating to deal with.

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AllStarSuperman

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That revan picture is sexy

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El_mago

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@idrisiangraecus: he literally give up becuase you were wanking ben kenobi even if the lore itself puts vader above him..... so that thread was honestly meme worthy

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#312  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@mygod000: Yet Revan is more powerful than Vader. That's my viewpoint, and I don't wish to argue with you as your pride is too irritating to deal with.

No, Revan is not more powerful, Like I said Vader Rivals ROTJ Sidious who is leagues more powerful than Revan and Vitiate.

first, off I don't want to debate with you because all you do is low ball, and then use ad hominem fallacy, and ignore evidence.

Secondly, you were the one who replied to me first after I gave out my argument in the thread. I only replied because you been replying to me for the last few days try to get my attention and then when i destroy your arguments you run.

#292

#293

If you are not interesting in debating, then like I told you millions of times before don't @me, stop mentioning my name in debates.

none of this is difficult, to do just stop At me in threads.

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@el_mago: I argued my points fairly, with sourcing, etc. The thread was a meme because he was so bad that he couldn't refute it.

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El_mago

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@idrisiangraecus: lol no he just give up after posting his sources and scaling that literally was no rebuttal at his points

using ad hominems again....

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MyGod000

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If the Argument is that Vader lost to Luke than that just means Luke would beat Revan.

there is not one feat Revan has that puts him above Vader. His force Lighting is just at the level of being able to char your skin.

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MyGod000

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#317  Edited By MyGod000

@el_mago: that all He does is use Ad Hominems Fallacy to debate, I figured that out when I first debated him and was winning then he started insulting. It's to the point I don't even think he can even debate properly without using Ad Hominems in debate.

On topic: do you have any arguments for Revan or Vader?

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El_mago

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already detailed the superiority the character have at least two posts prior

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MyGod000

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Well, I think Revan puts up a decent fight at the start, then Vader just destroys him.

Revan being able to tank Light saber Attacks isn't anything new...because Vader can tank Light sabers attack as well and keep fighting. Revan Being in lockstep power growth with vitiate is cool...but nothing new because Vader is in Lockstep power Growth with ROTJ Sidious who is far more powerful than Vitiate even at his strongest.

The only thing Revan has is his better Mobility which isn't all that great since Vader isn't no snail, and has been compared to have speed comparable to Yoda when he want to move fast.

lastly, Revan versatility with the force compared to Vader. which all he has is Sith Lighting and Sith Magic which pales compared to Sidious and what he could do with it. overall when you tally everything up Vader is logically much-Much more powerful than Revan.

Vader destroys Revan

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@mygod000: Revan ashed Nyriss... and for the record, Vader being anywhere near ROTJ Sidious is explicitly contradicted by The fact that the resurrection comic (supported by chee) portrays TPM Maul >= Chee. Multiple sources state Luke ~ Vader and Sidious instantaneously overwhelms Luke.

On the other hand, you claim you “won” our first debate(s) when all of your arguments were so full of holes they resembled Swiss cheese. Your ego makes it impossible to debate, as even if I brought you a damning piece of evidence showing Vader < Revan, you’d dismiss it.

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the_wspanialy

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@el_mago: I’ve beaten your superior Lorenzo in an SS on it, don’t try it.

I would congratulate you if I didn't know what kind of debater Lorenzo is. He's basically the Peter Griffin of VS debates.

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#323  Edited By El_mago

peter griffin of debates sure lol

the insults never stop i see,literally at least the guy makes more sense than the majority in here

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El_mago

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imagine thinking vader is weak

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@el_mago: Imagine having Vader higher than Az.

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@el_mago: Az currently has Revan winning. He has Vader extraordinarily low lmfao.

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El_mago

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#329  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: well everyone have his opinions if people wants to lowball the character when sources are shown then its their problem

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@el_mago: It's not lowball to disagree. For that matter, I could claim you lowball TOR and wank Vader.

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El_mago

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i only have the character in the right placement,also i have quite a few characters high for the tor era especially valkorion so the lowball its no that bad

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@el_mago: No, it’s where you believe he is. Majority of SI has Vader low, that isn’t lowball, it’s common sense that’s been proven.

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El_mago

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#333  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: its only quite a handfull of people so it doesnt really matter and how exactly its common sense when literally people ignore sourcematerial and other things about the character,this is reinforced by the fact that what some users say have been contradicted numeral times by the same lore its star wars after all its not a perfect cohesive universe like DC or marvel.

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@el_mago: For Christ’s sake, it isn’t contradicting the lore to claim Vader is weak. Lucas himself says this a lot.

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El_mago

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#335  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: parallel universe remember? lucas have been also noted to contradict himself the majority of his career as a director so his arguments cannot be taken that seriously as a biblical source

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@el_mago: LFL licensing states otherwise.

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El_mago

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#337  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: then again the arguments still hold no great value also LFL licensing is for merchandise and It has also been a leader in developing new film technology in special effects, sound, and computer animation, and because of their expertise its subsidiaries often help produce non-Lucasfilm pictures. without mentioning their fellow

1-lucas licensing: licensing and merchandising indiana jones and star wars

2-lucas books: the publishing arm of lucasfilm and lucas licensing

3-lucas online: online destination of entertainment

merchandise definition: the activity of promoting the sale of goods, especially by their presentation in retail outlets.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/George-Lucas-Unreliable-Narrator-and-Time-Travelling-Revisionist-/id/66986

so LFL licensing got nothing to with lucas s statements

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Kh0rn3

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I think i will took Revan over Vader tbh,because from what i know Revan has better feats than Vader

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MyGod000

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#339  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@mygod000: Revan ashed Nyriss... and for the record, Vader being anywhere near ROTJ Sidious is explicitly contradicted by The fact that the resurrection comic (supported by chee) portrays TPM Maul >= Chee. Multiple sources state Luke ~ Vader and Sidious instantaneously overwhelms Luke.

On the other hand, you claim you “won” our first debate(s) when all of your arguments were so full of holes they resembled Swiss cheese. Your ego makes it impossible to debate, as even if I brought you a damning piece of evidence showing Vader < Revan, you’d dismiss it.

Here you go debating with me again after you just said you didn't want to debate with me. You really can't help, but contradict yourself.

That comic came out before ANH. also, Maul is a Tier 8 duelist. Vader struggling in that duel holds no barrens really since Vader has struggled with Light saber duels against many people and then seen force dominating them in the next page.

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Maul in a light saber duel would most likely beat Revan in a light saber duel as well, since Current Sith and Jedi dueling skills>>>Sith and Jedi in KOTOR era.

ANH Vader>>>Vader in that comic Duel with Maul.

Sadly for you...that Vader even after ANH continued his Jedi Training and getting massively better with a light saber.

I am talking about Vader force powers was rival to ROTJ Sidious...and to counter that you bring up lightsaber dueling? LMFAO Good job with the consistency.

Talk about his force powers not his dueling skills.

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MyGod000

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@el_mago: Imagine having Vader higher than Az.

why do you keep bring that guy into your debates? You seem to ride on his word a lot, and use him as a measuring stick for other people debating skills. I've only debated him in 2 threads, Voldemort Vs Grindelwald thread...and Dooku vs Star killer thread, where i didn't take him seriously after he said something about Vader being weaker than Dooku.

No, Luke isn't around Vader's Level. even Lucas stated this that he isn't.

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Luke is stated to be as powerful as the script wants him to be; stated that there are many factors to winning a lightsaber battle like Being hindered or conflicted.

which is what I showed you before you started backing down, and saying you didn't want to debate.

You've never brought any Evidence to in your debate not that I know of. the first time You even tried to debate me you brought up that Revan>>>Malak scaling and said Vader is even below Kun.

Kun uses force magic relies heavily on his amulets and Talismans to booster his power.

I hardly reply to that scaling because you have like 9 people who uses and you are going around saying Everyone uses it on this forum.

Honestly since you said this is your opinion, I am fine with that. while you're using opinions, I'm using facts, and facts says Vader is in lockstep, power growth, and Rivals a much stronger Sith Master than the one Revan is rival to.

That alone proves Vader is more powerful in force powers than Revan. the Sources and everything points to this, while you only have 1 source which states otherwise and Luke According to Lucas is as powerful as the plot needs him to be...which means he could be nearly as powerful as prime Yoda in the force.

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Azronger

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@IdrisianGraecus If there's one thing I don't appreciate, it's people lying about me. Unless you can produce hard evidence of me stating Revan wins this or that I have Vader low, you are an unequivocally a liar.

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Vader wins

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King-Ragnar

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Memes af

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@azronger: Also, I believe that it’s common knowledge that you hold Sheev and Plagy > Vader, and low is comparative to MyGod, who has ROTJ Sheev >= ROTJ Vader

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@cj_the_dj:

"Lucas uses the terminology 'has' clearly showing Vader hadn't recovered that power. If I said the phrase 'he has lost a ball' for example, it tells us two things: 1) The event of losing the ball happened in the past. 2) He still hasn't found it. The exact same principle applies regarding Vader's power, while it's obviously referencing something that happened in the past, it clearly also has present impacts. If Lucas wished to convey Vader had regained that power he would have said 'had' rather than 'has'."

This interpretation fails if Lucas is doing a recount of past events, e.g. "so he's a slave, and he's rescued by the Jedi, he loses an arm to Dooku, he falls to the dark side, he loses to Obi-Wan, he's lost a lot of power of the Force and potential..." I've been unable to find the commentary that contains this quote, so I challenge someone to actually present the source of this mythical quote to A) discover if Lucas actually said this and B) see the context. 

If you can directly present the entire source of the quote, to be viewed in full by anyone, which can be done for any of his other relevant ones, I will concede to its authenticity and we'll go from there. 

"Moreover, your interpretation makes little to no sense, why would Lucas randomly denote 19BBY Vader's power when the current subject is The Empire Strikes Back." 

Unless Vader experienced another power loss in ESB, obviously he has to be talking about ROTS. If he's already on that topic, why the frig not?

"??? Anakin potentially having power relative to Kenobi does not necessitate that he's less powerful than Vader"

I must have confused your use of C-canon sources, I was mentioning that to refute the ludicrous concept that Anakin > Yoda. 

"As for the movie showing Anakin ~ Kenobi in power, this requires further substantiation, elaborate."

Vader outright strains to withstand Obi-Wan's power:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iqTPvFGBPGsYbdL89

Obi-Wan ~ Vader > Anakin > Yoda? Mhm, sure. 

"Uh, what? Why can't Mace be = Yoda?"

Why can't Dooku > Yoda, if we can get enough quotes stating as much? Anyone with half a brain can tell that holistically speaking, Mace is supposed to be Yoda's second. 

"Moreover, the Canon policy is that all quotes from databanks, etc, are canon unless explicitly contradicted. Citing one example where a quote is proven false doesn't detract from my argument. Prove these quotes run contrary to other material because otherwise, this statement is pretty much worthless." 

The movie overrules the host of idiotic sources you can cite. Anakin as a Jedi was relative to IG-102 and was trounced by Count Dooku. Anakin as Vader was relative to Obi-Wan. 

"Lucas says Anakin is 'as strong' as Sidious, so no, he does say Anakin=Sidious."

 

 Hang on buddy, you said "Anakin is => Sidious based on Lucas's word..." which is what I responded to. So which is it? Is Anakin stronger than Sidious or equal to him? You can't have it both ways. 

In anycase, the referenced quote is irrelevent as the one from The Making of Revenge of the Sith happens closer to the movie in terms of production and is therefore a more accurate portrayal of Lucas' intent going into the movie, as opposed to later when he is prone to changing his ideas after committing them to film. Lucas made it clear that it's only Mace or Yoda who are in any way comparable to Sidious, and that Anakin could only have defeated him if not for Mustafar; and this idea is far more consistent with what is shown in the film. 

"Vitiate's fatal character flaw is fear of death, I very much doubt he'd let Revan get into striking distance when according to you he could have just ragdolled him the whole time."

And yet he did. 

"Moreover, this quote clearly shows Vitiate did not let Revan get within striking distance of him: If Vitiate could have just pushed Revan away the whole time as you claim he would not have been described as vulnerable, nor in need of protection"

No, it doesn't. It's not referring to literal striking distance, it's talking about how Revan and his ragtag strike team were able to breach Vitiate's inner, private chamber and attack him. Hence, distancing himself and acting through a Voice.   

"Vitiate temporarily stopping Revan in his tracks with a Lightning bolt doesn't suggest he could have stopped Revan getting within striking distance prior, all it would have done is halted him for a split second. To explicitly get Revan away from him Vitiate needed to charge up his power for an extended period of time. The lightning attacks actually proved ineffective, Revan just dodged or sent them back to their source after this| As established above Vitiate did have to." 

Literally does. Revan tried to charge him and Vitiate stopped him with a single bolt of lightning, not even a prolonged stream. Revan wasn't able to advance. You're trying to pretend that Revan is capable of getting within striking distance of Vitiate when in the novel he actually tried and Vitiate stopped him. It doesn't get any clearer than that. 

"Also, briefly sweeping someone off their feet with Telekinesis isn't ragdolling, though maybe you use the word in a looser sense than I do." 

Telekinetically knocking someone into the air is ragdolling in my book. 

"Uh, what? All you've posted is a quote saying Revan used both sides of the Force in his attack (Dark Side and Light Side), this does not suggest it's his own power." 

Revan refers to Vitiate's power as the dark side:

 

"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before." 

-- Revan 

And in the next breath once more refers to it:

"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form." 

-- Revan 

Revan just took Vitiate's power in combination with his own then used it to ragdoll a weakened and caught off-guard Vitiate. 

"Yeah, sure, but Revan wouldn't leave his mind defenceless either when a mere brush of Vitiate's mind against a powerful Sith (Lord Scourge) sent him onto his knees."

As detailed earlier, Revan didn't try and resist it, he just let the power flow through him:

"The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers."

-- Revan

Then used it against a weakened and off-guard Vitiate. 

"Moreover, this is kind of irrelevant given that while this obviously mitigates the feat, there are very few examples of Force Users outright temporarily knocking each other out with single TK attacks, regardless of circumstances (e.g. Vader Force Pushes a distracted Galen Marek, and it still does absolutely nothing to him but knock him off his feet)." 

What is the point of bringing that up?

"Yes, Revan was obviously incapacitated and his defences failed him, but you're fundamentally missing the point. I never said Revan fully defended against the attack, I said he mitigated it. Nyriss's charged Lightning storm (which is described as 'infinitely' less powerful than Vitiate's which makes sense given that Revan fully blocked hers, whereas Vitiate overwhelmed him) tore through her defences and left her as a smoking pile of ash. Vitiate's attacks against Revan should have been lethal, yet Revan blocks the attack to the extent that he's only badly burned."

Revan blocked nothing, he just lost, and good for his armoured durability, or enrobed Nyriss' lack thereof. 

"If that's not mitigating I don't know what is. This clearly demonstrates parity, Revan defended against the majority of Vitiate's supercharged attack."

You clearly don't. Comparable is Revan holding off Vitiate's power for a bit prior to being overwhelmed. Parity is Revan successfully blocking Vitiate's power, stalemating him until the offensive energy overloads. Being vastly inferior to Vitiate is having his power instantly blown through. 

"Because scripted mechanics are S-Canon, and Chee says we shouldn't outright dismiss them." 

All mechanics are scripted, and, having just looked at the fight again, Revan ragdolling the team wasn't gameplay mechanics, it part of a cutscene. And therefore I concede to that point.

"Vitiate managed to incapacitate Revan after the latter got within striking distance of him,"

Vitiate allowed Revan to get within striking distance then ragdolled him.

"rendered him limp with TK,"

Revan used Vitiate's power combined with his own to ragdoll a weakened and caught off-guard Vitiate.  

"and pressed him to the point where his stone-cold dispassionate demeanour cracked and he let out a primal hiss of hate."

Woohoo, Vitiate hissed with hate, clearly Revan has parity with him. 

"I fail to understand how they aren't close especially since when Vitiate finally incapacitated Revan, he did so barely, with Revan actually largely mitigating the effects of his Lightning." 

I fail to understand how Revan is anywhere near Vitiate when the latter one-shotted him with lightning and Revan couldn't even put up a struggle power-wise.

"Wait, so you're legitimately arguing Revan despite fighting through armies beforehand, wasn't in the slightest bit fatigued and had depleted absolutely none of his Force reserves? Wow, all the more power to him I guess."

So... no source? Thought so. 

"The metal jaw could have easily been imbued with Dark Side power."

Oh yeah, sure.

"The statement isn't invalid just because the source is throwing out theories, due to it not really having a clue what made Malak more powerful than Kun." 

So you're saying it's subjective? Nice. 

"And as Idrisian said, it was reviewed by Chee for discrepancies, and he saw nothing wrong with the article, so I don't see why you're looking things to complain about."

Cough cough *line edited ROTS novel* cough cough  

"Overall: -Revan ~ Vititate as of the Revan novel."

As per the novel, Vitiate >>>>> Revan

"-Revan > Malak >> Kun." 

Revan =/> Malak <<<< Kun

"Revan >> the SOR strike team." 

Power-wise? Yes. In a fight? No. Revan lost to them.

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CJ_the_DJ

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@lord_tenebrous: I'm sorry, it may take me a while to get back to you, as I'm currently taking a break from debating.

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MyGod000

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#348  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@azronger: Also, I believe that it’s common knowledge that you hold Sheev and Plagy > Vader, and low is comparative to MyGod, who has ROTJ Sheev >= ROTJ Vader

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Why are you omitting facts? the only Vader I have >=ROTJ Sheev is Canon vader because it stated he is parity with Sheev.

I've never said Legends Vader or even George Lucas Star wars Vader was =<ROTJ Sidious.

if your going to lie to everyone don't lie on my name. I've always said Legends Vader was rival of ROTJ Sidious, I've never gave out any chain scaling for him in compassion to that Sidious. The Scaling Or chains i did Give for Legends Vader doesn't say ROTJ>=ROTJ Vader in legends if so show me these chain and stop lying to yourself and everyone in here.

kindly leave my name out of your debates because everything you say out of your mouth is lies and Ad Hominem Fallacies.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Necromancer76

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This version of Revan? Probably Vader then. Not too sure how people feel about the characters atm.