Darth Vader VS Revan

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Warlockmage

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Vader wins convincingly and this scale chain hurts my brain because its not even based on a coherent thought structure

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@warlockmage: How so? The scaling chain is completely accurate and based on the lore. I don’t believe it of course, but it was just a response to the “Vader Stomps” comments.

I’ve yet to see an argument for Vader that actually works, bar idiotically scaling him ~ the PT Titans (which doesn’t work because KFV was there, and suit Vader <<<<<< KFV).

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Warlockmage

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@idrisiangraecus: first off you cannot even come close to proving Ood is anywhere near Sedriss level without amping himself off Ossus energy that breaks your entire scale chain alone (not to mention Sedriss was amping himself also)

outside of that his only semi-impressive feat is being able to fight Exar Kun (which is what you are basing your entire scale chain off of)

another thing we know Base Sedriss was not even remotely a threat to Luke when they fought Luke has TK feats of throwing him around and blocking his own attacks, which again breaks your horrendous scaling chain even further

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Sedriss wasn't just barely below Luke he was severely below Luke... Luke 1 shot him, and by DE Luke was above even Reborn Revan.

we'll get to how your entire scale chain relies on a statement and not feats after this but this is just the first step

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Richard96

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#204  Edited By Richard96

@idrisiangraecus:

I won’t debate with you about Vader. Your lowballing of him (you stated Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi level) and your Malak/Revan wank are just hilarious 😂

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MyGod000

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LMFAO.

I've never seen soo much hypocrisy on here in my life. uses statements from other sites to debate, yet ignores source from novels stating that Vader is at least stronger than DE Luke Pre-Leia Amp.

No Caption Provided

Sidious states out his Mouth that DE Luke is still weaker than Vader.

Vader destroys Revan.

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DE Luke is more powerful than Vader. He's also more powerful than Yoda. Not that this has much to do with Revan, just pointing it out.

Luke was already Sheev's "greatest adversary" during their first "ferocious" duel.

https://i.imgur.com/kHnRKwy.png

Luke then received a thorough training in the dark side, which increased his powers further. But after Leia unlocks hidden power inside him, he flat out defeats DE Sheev in their second duel by using the Light Side.

https://i.imgur.com/XiNFzKb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cpaciWO.png

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@richard96: The Vader is sub TPM Kenobi thing is a meme lmao. I wank Revan and Malak comparative to this site. Most others (namely SI) have both of them say above Vader lmao. I’d welcome a CaV on this, if anyone is willing (assuming you won’t steal Az’s arguments lmao).

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Redshift_Bacon

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#208  Edited By Redshift_Bacon

@idrisiangraecus: Because Suited Vader ragdolls post ROTS Sidious and is also able to block his Lightsaber strike against a 3rd party. Its stated multiple times that Vader grew in Power after ROTS during Rebels. He continues growing until ROTJ. While in Legends, Vader doubted he and Luke would be able to actually defeat Sidious, in Canon, he believed they had a legitimate chance. Clearly Luke is not carrying that duo. Sidious only grew in power after ROTS, so for ROTJ Vader to NOT be at least at ROTS Sidious level is pretty unlikely, considering he planned on overthrowing a more powerful version of Sidious bud.

Also, Pretty sure you and I both watched the ROTS Movie, so Canon Vader (suit), who is comparable if not Superior to ROTS Sidious, slaps both KF Vader. Anmost agree KF Vader would defeat prime Revan in a fight. He isnt a different person in Legends and Canon, they are literally the same person with the same feats.

Stop the Revan wank. He isnt on the level of ROTS Yoda or Sidious, whereas Vader demonstratably is.

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@redshift_bacon: You can't scale Legends characters to canon feats, that's not how it works. I'm not going to argue with utter bullshit. It's not wank if I can prove it, which you clearly cannot.

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Redshift_Bacon

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@idrisiangraecus: Lol Im not?? I am saying that Canon Vader (suit) > ROTS Sidious, KF Vader, ect,

Characters that on there own, you would be forced to concede, are superior to Revan.

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@redshift_bacon: Legends Vader isn't superior to Legends Sidious by any stretch, lmao. KFV curbstomps Legends Vader, and Revan is easily PT Titan level based on Kun scaling, etc.

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Redshift_Bacon

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@idrisiangraecus: Exar scaling is bunk, hes overrated, and I’m not talking about Legends Vader.

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Richard96

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Kun’s trash, lol.

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@richard96: Bullshit. He has feats vastly superior to Caedus (your favorite and most wanked character, I'd assume). Where Caedus struggled with TPing a "room" full of technicians (to the point where a single mando beat him), Kun TPed the entire Senate and also TPed every single person with scanning tech on Cinnagar.

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El_mago

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vader destroys revan end of discussion

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Richard96

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@idrisiangraecus:

Still ignoring it was Sith Sorcery and not common TP, not surprising...

Kun cannot even accomplish a decent feat without being amped by trinkets/amulets.

Caedus would mop the floor with your beloved Kun and Malak while having a cup of tea.

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El_mago

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@richard96: correction caedus and vader would slap the wannabe while talking about family issues

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Richard96

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@el_mago:

The TOR wank is really cancerous, LMAO

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El_mago

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@richard96: ofc it is not only cancerous but sometimes is stupid

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@richard96: Cinnagar was TP, and as one of the oldest additions to TOTJ, most esoteric techniques (and some that weren't) are noted as "sorcery", "sorcerous ways", etc. I'd also appreciate if you wouldn't insult me by calling me arguments cancerous. Jacen is far weaker than Kun via a host of feat comparisons, and you're clearly incapable of proving jackshit without insulting me.

Kun's amulets and gauntlet never amped him, as you claim. They let him focus his attacks into focused blasts.

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@el_mago: based on what, lmao? Vader and Caedus have nothing on Kun, let alone Malak, Revan, etc. Kun's TP feats are way beyond either of them, as are his esoteric feats. Revan's sorcery easily oneshots either as well (evidenced by JA Kun vs JA Luke, in which it's the technique, not the level of power that matters).

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El_mago

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#222  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: caedus and vader have superior scaling that already gives them the win

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@el_mago: Like what? Debunked nonsense? The 80% quote is unquantifiable, Caedus doesn't scale off of Luke whatsoever. Give me an argument instead of baseless statements.

I'd like to ask you to refrain from calling me "cancerous" and "stupid", it's in bad taste.

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El_mago

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@idrisiangraecus: i know the quote of the 80 percent is unquantifiable im talking about other quotes like this ones that already gives a insta win for the characters:

Vader eventually surpassed his ROTS iteration:

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Credit to Dawn_of_Ages

-- Jedi Battles

anakin at his best was already given the following quotes:

Anakin is an unstoppable warrior, the fastest and strongest among all Jedi, and the best at what he does:

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Darth Sidious claims that Anakin's skills are unmatched by any Sith before him:

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Anakin is a level nine warrior, on the same tier as swordmasters such as Yoda and Darth Sidious. He is thus one tier above Count Dooku, Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi, who are tier 8 duelists:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

18 BBY Vader is considered by Nick Rostu to be far more powerful in the Force than Kar Vastor. Given that this would put him above the likes of 22 BBY Mace Windu, and thus, above Jedi such as Shaak Ti, Yarael Poof, Fay, or Yaddle, this is an impressive accolade. Noting that Nick seemed to be aware of Kar's power even before the fight against Mace, so his comparison shouldn't be inaccurate:

Nick Rostu knew darkness.

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.

Until now.

Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.

As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.

Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.

Waiting.

Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith lord in history, attributes Vader's ability to kill him in Rotj to his apprentice's power. While the feat itself is circumstantial, this is nonetheless rather impressive, especially when bearing in mind that Rotj Palpatine at this point is arguably far more powerful than his earlier iterations:

Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long.

-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

for caedus:

Now it seems that the last, best hope lies in mobilizing the scattered Jedi for one decisive search-and-destroy mission. The objective: eliminate Darth Caedus. It’s a plan that will be as difficult and dangerous to execute as it is daring. For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader.

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible (Synopsis)

"The Force is the energy of the living,” Lumiya said. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Jacen frowned. "Wait. That means that Darth Vader could never have become the Lord of the Sith . . . a true Master."

"That's correct. I'm not sure he ever understood that. He might not have cared. He was numbed by tragedy.”

Legacy Of The Force: Betrayal

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@el_mago: All of which is oneshotted with a Lucas quote, lmao.

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El_mago

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#226  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: first i never really called you stupid or cancerous i was talking about tor wank

argument that clearly is one shotted again by lucas himself itself a few years ago declared this about the expanded universe and his point of view:

There are two worlds here; There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books.”

George Lucas, Cinescape, July 2001

“I don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. That’s a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”

George Lucas, Starlog, August 2005

so literally a author that dint bother to read a shit about the expanded universe so his quotes can only take into consideration in his own world aka the cinema industry

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@el_mago: Which is oneshotted by Chee himself clarifying that G-Canon > C-Canon (the books and all).

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El_mago

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#228  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: scan or evidence? also chee himself declared this :

[Lucas’] canon – and when I say ‘his canon’, I’m talking about what he was doing in the films and what he was doing in The Clone Wars – was hugely important. But what we were doing in the books really wasn’t on his radar.”

Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

my point is this lucas s statements cannot really take a value in a legends lore perspective,like he already said there are two parallel universes:

In 2008, franchise creator George Lucas said that there would be no sequel trilogy and that plot elements from the Expanded Universe were not part of the overall story, including that "Luke doesn't get married".[5]

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@el_mago: Then we just scale Kun to a level relative to DE Luke (which I can prove).

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@el_mago: Wolff's blog is a bunch of revisionist nonsense. There's nothing logical about it. Especially since Veitch has claimed TOTJ Kun > JA Kun.

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El_mago

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#232  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: just read it imao also tom vietch is statements and opinions are quite possibly the most that you need to take as a great pit of salt one perfect example of that is the nonsense of kun>> de sidious

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@el_mago: Kun >> DE sidious is something I've never claimed (but it was the intent). Furthermore, Veitch wrote the characters and therefore determines intent. DE Luke is far beneath DE Sidious (evidenced by the fact that Luke had to be amped by the power of "luminous beings" to win).

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El_mago

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#234  Edited By El_mago

@idrisiangraecus: i just posted that quote as a example of why the same author is opinions cannot be taken as a fact in the slightest,Never said that You claimed it...

i completly agree than DE luke is still inferior to palps tho

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@idrisiangraecus: It's not an amp. Leia unlocked hidden resources within Luke which thereafter were his to use freely.

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MyGod000

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#236  Edited By MyGod000

DE Luke was still weaker than ROTJ Sidious.

Luke from seeing a hologram was shaking and in fear of Sidious not long before ROTJ.

Sidious is beyond all the Sith in the past, post ROTS was the Sidious was the embodiment of the dark side of the force itself.

Vader even says destroying planets it nothing to what the Dark side of the force can do.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Vader wins here, Sidious and Vader are Gods. how can you kill a god?

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Lord_Tenebrous

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A) Lucas didn't care about legends, it doesn't change the fact that there was a canon system that included both the EU and Lucas' word and placed Lucas above the EU:

"The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered 'G' canon. Next we have what we call continuity 'C' canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary 'S' continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes 'C.' Similarly, any 'C' canon item that makes it into the films can become 'G' canon. Lastly there is non-continuity 'N' which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction..."

-- Leland Chee

That's just the way it is.

B) the Revan wank is indeed ludicrous. But not as bad as the KF Vader wank, when he has done legit zero to merit any such standing and is less powerful than MF Vader who was relative to Obi-Wan in power.

C) the Dark Empire quote is contradicted by the bulk of lore and is therefore an inconsistency.

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Richard96

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#238  Edited By Richard96

@idrisiangraecus:

“Cinnagar was TP,”

So, how many people has he TP’d?

“Jacen is far weaker than Kun via a host of feat comparisons, and you're clearly incapable of proving jackshit without insulting me.“

Jacen being a match to freaking GM Luke, who would one-shot Kun and his weak TOR friends in a blink of an eye, automatically puts him miles and miles above Kun. That’s not debatable.

“Kun's amulets and gauntlet never amped him, as you claim. They let him focus his attacks into focused blasts.”

That is, they amped him.

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@richard96: Would you be willing to CaV this? I don’t think it’s a good idea to clog this big a thread with massive scans and quotes atm. I’ll be able to sufficiently articulate my thoughts there. Let me know if that works out and we can use characters. Perhaps Caedus vs. Novel Revan or the like?

However if you’d prefer, o could write a massive WoT here, but it’s gonna be the same size as a CaV post, so might as well do it in an area that’s less clogged.

I’ve been meaning to CaV somebody and you seem like one of the more capable SW debaters still on CV, so yeah.

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@lord_tenebrous: We can agree to disagree on this, but MFV was hindered as he “hadn’t mastered the mental side” of fighting and was “consumed” by his “rage”.

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Richard96

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@idrisiangraecus:

“Would you be willing to CaV this? I don’t think it’s a good idea to clog this big a thread with massive scans and quotes atm. I’ll be able to sufficiently articulate my thoughts there. Let me know if that works out and we can use characters. Perhaps Caedus vs. Novel Revan or the like?”

I though we were talking about Kun. SOR Revan vs Caedus would be far more debatable, I think, even if caedus would still win solidly, IMO.

“I’ve been meaning to CaV somebody and you seem like one of the more capable SW debaters still on CV, so yeah.”

Oh, thank you. But I am afraid I don’t have time to follow a CaV right now. I am quite concerned with exams. When I will have dealt with them maybe we can arrange a SOR Revan vs Caedus CaV.

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El_mago

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@lord_tenebrous: revan wank is more ludicrous that the KF Vader one at least that character have a placement on the same tier as sidious and yoda by the time of rots

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MyGod000

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@lord_tenebrous:

No Caption Provided

Stated right there...so their is no Anakin Wank here, he is literally top tier with Sidious, and Yoda with the dueling but he just hasn't learned the Mental side of it.

Which Vader Learned from that Mistake. Sure We can say Vader never Got as good as Anakin with a blade but like I proved to you already which you ignore and dismiss.

No Caption Provided

Vader is consider a Master with the LightSaber. so, I can say Anakin is a 9.5 and Vader is a 9.0 and still be correct about Anakin being better with the Sabers. However, in the end Anakin would still lose because of his mental State of mind. Vader is no longer hindered by his mental state of mind in duels. Overall, Vader would beat Anakin in a Lightsaber duel because of that alone.

as for Force, Vader>>>>>>MF Anakin>>KF Anakin.

people using Ben Kenobi as a Means to downplay Vader or Maul to downplay Vader you need to realize that Vader was massively pre-prime. There is a 4 years Gap Between ANH and ESB where Vader got massively better with a light saber and in ROTJ Vader got even better and more much more powerful in the force.

Vader wins handily every time against Revan

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El_mago

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#244  Edited By El_mago

Despite being the moderator of all Star Wars lore, and having once argued in favor of the EU being part of Lucas’ world, Leland did not work very closely with Lucas himself, unlike Dave Filoni (supervising director on The Clone Wars, and Lucas’ padawan learner):

I did not have direct contact with George about Star Wars continuity. Dave Filoni, who worked on Clone Wars, definitely did. So for me, the spirit of George’s work is what’s in the films, and it doesn’t go too far beyond that.”

Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

The most definitive canon of the Star Wars universe is encompassed by the feature films and television productions in which George Lucas is directly involved. The movies and the Clone Wars television series are what he and his handpicked writers reference when adding cinematic adventures to the Star Wars oeuvre. But Lucas allows for an Expanded Universe that exists parallel to the one he directly oversees. […] Though these [Expanded Universe] stories may get his stamp of approval, they don’t enter his canon unless they are depicted cinematically in one of his projects.”

-Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars: The Essential Reader’s Companion, October 2nd, 2012

Although Lucas could have taken a more hands-on approach with licensed media, to ensure it was more consistent with his vision for Star Wars (as opposed to allowing something like Mara Jade, and her marriage to Luke, happen), Rinzler explained that upholding the sanctity of the licensed media simply wasn’t a priority for him.

“George had bigger fish to fry. He was trying to change filmmaking with digital technology. He wasn’t going to get involved in the minutiae of the Expanded Universe. He, quite literally, had better things to do.”

J.W. Rinzler, interviewed for SWNN’s “The Resistance Broadcast”

So why did George Lucas allow the Expanded Universe to continue on, if he never accepted it as canonical?

According to J.W. Rinzler, the answer was pretty straightforward; money!

“Licensing, starting after Episode I, just became this juggernaut that was making just, truck loads and truck loads of money. So, you don’t bother licensing! :laughs:”

J.W. Rinzler, interviewed for SWNN’s “The Resistance Broadcast”

Leland Chee, the Keeper of the Holocron (Star Wars internal encyclopedia manager), who was previously adamant that there was no “parallel Star Wars universes” (in direct contradiction to Lucas’ statements), later conceded that George Lucas’ canon was separate from what he was overseeing with the licensing world.

[Lucas’] canon – and when I say ‘his canon’, I’m talking about what he was doing in the films and what he was doing in The Clone Wars – was hugely important. But what we were doing in the books really wasn’t on his radar.”

Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

even if we got a established canon system it doesnt change the fact that the movies and eu are different universes,this is fully restablished by the fact that lucas dint read a thing about the eu so his opinions only state on his own universe not any reliable media or book.

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@richard96: Well, personally I hold Revan Reborn > Caedus, and I decided to offer you a CaV on Revan vs. Caedus because Revan is one of the few that scales directly from Kun--hence why I'm offering him (Revan's also my best character). It works if you can't do a CaV now (though I could possibly make the thread and open).

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Richard96

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@idrisiangraecus:

I think I’ll be busy until the end of February. Then I‘ll have time for the CaV.

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El_mago

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#247  Edited By El_mago

i will be interested in the result of that cav tbh

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@richard96: Ah okay, gotcha. I'll PM you around then?

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Richard96

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