Darth Vader vs. Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar

Let's say we switch Chancellor Palpatine with Lord Vader in that scene from Revenge of the Sith. What happens?

All character feats are based off current canon.

Fight takes place in Chancellor Palpatine's office.

Round 1: Vader is alone.

Round 2: Vader is with 0-0-0 and BT-1.

He gets punked Mace could solo him.

ROTJ Vader clears. Hes confident that He+Luke can clear ROTJ Palpatine. Even if ROTJ Luke is around Dooku-to-ROTS Anakin Level (And thats pushing it, I dont even have him at ROTS Kenobi level), he would need to be pulling most of the weight since we know that Sidious appears like a Blur to Anakin and Sidious force-choked Dooku from half the galaxy away.

That means hes likely gaging himself at about ROTS Palpatine level if not higher. Ontop of this, he has scaling and feats to back it up, such as overpowering ROTS Sidious with the Force immediately after ROTS, and blocked Sidious’s Lightsaber, both well before his Prime. I believe its also stated that Prime Vader is a superior duelist to ROTS Anakin.

In the Force:

ROTJ Vader > Rebels Vader >> ROTS Vader (suit) ~ ROTS Palpatine

In Sabers:

ROTJ Vader > ROTS Anakin > ROTS Dooku

I personally think Vader probably does better than Sidious did. He isnt Blitzing anybody, but his Stamina and pure strength are too much for the team, who will slowly crumble until its just Mace left. Mace cant beat Vader.

Vader, he's so powerful he can create barriers strong enough to withstand the Sith temple on malachor exploding which can destroy whole cruisers, and the largest weapons factory the empire had made exploding on him did nothing, imagine if he put that kind of power into a push, or choke, ouch.

Vader sucks.

Windu is arguably enough to beat Vader alone. Adding in the other three only grants the Jedi the victory.

Windu wins.

@redshift_bacon: I've got to agree tbh Canon Vader is unparalleled in pure sabers and hes up there in rae force power.

He wont tire nor will he lose any ground even against Mace.

He can beat each individually (and with ease in the cases of Fisto, Tiin and Kolar) but against all of them he gets overwhelmed

It takes Vader 5 years to become superior to his prime Anakin self in the force, and I’d argue Anakin could take Mace just fine.

So it comes down to if you think 3 fodder Jedi can make up the difference between Mace and Vader.

I do think the environment is better for Vader, if he can move so that he’s going through the doorway then he’ll be able to limit how many Jedi can engage him at once.

I’d say Vader 6/10

Lol what? Mismatch. Mace alone would win easily. Vader would be extremely hardpressed in a fight against any single member of the B-team, much less combined.

Vader destroys them. these Jedi are canon fodder tier...only mace is a threat and Vader is massively more powerful than any Jedi from the Old Jedi Order of the republic.

Vader was able to survive an attack that was planetary.

This was from Kyber Crystal explosion, which was powerful enough to destroy a few Gozani-Class Assauslt Carriers Cruisers.

It destroyed the Malacor Temple and the area around it and Vader walked it off. FYI The temple was a Super-weapon that Maul was going to use to destroy Sidiou's whole Empire.

Hundreds of Jedi and Sith fought to try and obtain that power and were killed by the Temple, while Vader tanked it with his force powers presumable.

If Vader's force power is enough to tank Planetary explosions the he casually destroys this team.

@mygod000: It's also worth mentioning his barrier casually tanked the largest weapons factory in the empire exploding right on him. Vader one-shots.

Vader in canon, any of the Jedi can solo stomp in legends.

If this is Legends Vader if he abuses the force he could win since he is Yoda tier. If this is Canon Vader than Vader just one shots the whole team , then stomps Mace windu. Canon Vader is Definitely above Sidious from ROTS, and has feats that surpasses ROTS Sidious and Yoda.

This team already got Bodied by ROTS Sidious, canon Vader>>ROTS Sidious.

Nothing indicates this is the case. Plus, per Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force, Sidious dispatched the B-Team due to surprise and a dark side confusion haze, which is a technique that may or may not require prep and that we haven't ever seen Vader use. Not to mention, Sidious lost the duel with Windu and was then helped by Anakin.

Vader would have his hands full with Mace. The team wears him down eventually.

Canon Vader takes this, Legends Vader gets roflstomped

Kit fisto together with Windu 2VS1 does not last more than 7 seconds against Sidious ROTS ... https://gfycat.com/angelicfewindianskimmer

The excuses found for Sidious's stomp against the team are derisory Sidious beat Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar them because he was stronger, faster and more powerful just that

LMFAO.

well Vader is better duelist than Sidious. Everything you just said was against ROTS Sidious, who is much weaker than This vader we are discussing.

Let talk about how Vader Survived a planetary blast from a Kyber Crystal by using the force.

This was literally miles under ground and as you can see the Area is huge in width.

Like I mentioned previously, That temple was secretly a Super-Weapon Maul was going to use to destroy Sidious Empire, and we saw an Exposition of just how powerful Kyber Crystal is when it destroyed a few Gozani-Class Assauslt Carriers Cruisers. Vader using the force survived that attack in the center.

so, No one on that team has the power to stop Vader if he decides to use the force since he much more powerful than ROTS Sidious.

As for the rest of the team wearing him Down? that isn't happening.

Vaders enhancements make him casually able to Rip Off steel Doors, and a casually strike with his light saber would overwhelm anyone on that team.

Casual force Attacks from Vader can easily destroy AT-AT. So anyone on that Team get manhandled by Vader using the force, and Vader is better duelist Than Anakin who is Yoda and ROTS Sidious tier.

Mace is the only respectable duelist on this team, and he gets stomped hard.

Probably Vader in an extremely difficult fight. Especially with the droids on his side.

@redshift_bacon:

In the Force:

ROTJ Vader > Rebels Vader >> ROTS Vader (suit) ~ ROTS Palpatine

Are you basing this off of the Vader comic and how he pushed Palpatine against a wall? That only happened because Palpatine was off guard, and right when he raises his force defense he overcomes it. At best there raw power was close to the same level, but Palpatine's knowledge gives him the definite edge in the force. In the lords of the sith novel it's made pretty clear Palpatine's mastery of the force is far beyond Vaders. Only in raw telekinetic power are they close.

@mygod000said:

LMFAO.

well Vader is better duelist than Sidious. Everything you just said was against ROTS Sidious, who is much weaker than This vader we are discussing.

Let talk about how Vader Survived a planetary blast from a Kyber Crystal by using the force.

Well, it's you who said that Vader would win because ROTS Sidious "bodied" the team. That's why I pointed out the circumstances in said fight and that, in fact, he had help from Anakin to take down Windu. Vader being a better duelist than Sidious doesn't automatically put him above Mace, given he disarmed Sidious in their fight.

Surviving that blast is certainly impressive. However, earlier in that episode, Kanan and Ezra were able to resist Vader's Force pull for ~15 seconds, so I don't see him one-shotting Windu's teammates with the Force right away.

Vader's stand alone feats mean nothing, they just make everyone on team 2 much more impressive. If Vader could even beat Mace alone, much less combined with everyone else, he would not have:

- been on the losing end of a duel against an out-of-practice Eeth Koth

- near-equaled Rebels Ahsoka, who ~ a past-prime Maul

- struggled against a past-prime Obi-Wan Kenobi

- near-equaled ROTJ Luke

Vader has never demonstrated the ability to defeat any Jedi here, and all his feats show that he can't.

Team is too much.

1. This was pre-prime Vader, and he still killed him anyway.

2. Ahsoka was his student, and much stronger than she was in the Clone Wars by this point, Vader had the upper hand the entire fight.

3. In canon Old Kenobi is Prime Kenobi I believe.

4. Luke was amped on Rage and Vader was conflicted in this fight, he was not going to kill his son.

@incursion2:

"This was pre-prime Vader,"

True, however Koth was also past-prime as a fighter and this would be the same Vader who is stated to be a better duelist than ROTS Sidious.

"and he still killed him anyway." 

By cheapshotting him while Koth was distracted.

"Ahsoka was his student,"

Which actually gives him an advantage because he would know everything she knows. 

"and much stronger than she was in the Clone Wars by this point,"

True, but she was fodder in TCW, she couldn't even hold her own against Anakin. She was only a Padawan, and a teenager at that. Even TPM Kenobi was in his mid-20s.

"Vader had the upper hand the entire fight."

True, which is why I said "near-equaled." Both tagged each other once during the fight, and though Vader was driving her back, Ahsoka lasted a long amount of time which means she's almost as good as him. As I said, a past-prime Maul could compete with the same Ahsoka who could compete with Vader. Even TCW Maul isn't as good as Kit Fisto alone, much less everyone else. 

"In canon Old Kenobi is Prime Kenobi I believe." 

Old Kenobi in both legends and canon is in his power prime, but skill-wise, he's washed up.  

"Luke was amped on Rage" 

I'm talking about when Luke snapped out of it.

"and Vader was conflicted in this fight, he was not going to kill his son."

Luke was also not trying to kill Vader, so it evens out.

Mace Windu soloed Palpatine.

He turns Vader into a toaster.

@crushyourenemies: He won by kicking Palpatine's saber out of his hands. Maybe its harder to kick Vader's saber out of his hands with his cybernetic grip strength.

@heisenberg57: You might be right.

He did hold on to his saber while getting kicked!

Vader stands a chance :O

@incursion2:

"Luke was amped on Rage and Vader was conflicted in this fight, he was not going to kill his son." No actually a going all out Vader was matched blow for blow-by a holding back Luke until his rage amp.

and Kanan was able to defeat Maul, It called plot.

He survived that blast by using a force shield, which proves my point if he able to handle Planetary attack from Kyber Crystal explosion then he is far above everyone on this list pay grade.

Yes, he can one shot mace windu Teammates. if he able to withstand attack on planetary level with while using the force then he clearly one shots them when ever he wants.

We saw the fight from Obi-wan point of view and he stood no chance against Vader.

You are established as a Vader downplayer.

it stated several times in Canon that Vader has never been trying to kill Luke.

The fact that All Vader needed was a barely trained Luke just to kill ROTJ Sidious proves that Vader is massively above Mace, and is more powerful than ROTS Sidious by a decent margin. Mace who needed 3 master Tier Jedi to fight a weaker much weaker Sidious.

@alextheboss: I am talking about raw force power, where Vader proved he was Sidious’s peer far before his prime.

@redshift_bacon: When did he prove this? At the end of ROTS he was matched by Obi-wan, and Yoda told Obi-wan he had to go fight Anakin because the emperor was too powerful. In Yoda's vision in the CW Anakin was stomped by Palpatine, even though he just easily beat Dooku. In the Lords of the Sith novel Palpatine did quite a bit better than Vader did when fighting the lyleks. Once Vader reached his peak he might have been on par with Palpatine in force power, but he definitely wasn't during ROTS.

@alextheboss:

Are you basing this off of the Vader comic and how he pushed Palpatine against a wall? That only happened because Palpatine was off guard, and right when he raises his force defense he overcomes it. At best there raw power was close to the same level, but Palpatine's knowledge gives him the definite edge in the force. In the lords of the sith novel it's made pretty clear Palpatine's mastery of the force is far beyond Vaders. Only in raw telekinetic power are they close.

I agree Sidious force knowledge is beyond Vader...but not far Beyond him. it a stretch to say Sidious Knowledge is far beyond Vaders because it stated Vader has completely mastery over the Dark force.

Even Luke Suggested that Vader has a deep knowledge of the force.

Sidious knowledge of the force is certainly without question beyond Vaders knowledge, but not far beyond it.

@mygod000: I was referring to pre prime Vader.

Okay, then Yeah, I agree than that ROTS Sidious was far Beyond pre-Prime ROTS suit Vader in knowledge of the force.

Just so you know Lords of the Sith is 9 years before Vaders prime. If ROTS Vader in TK raw Force powers is peer with ROTS Sidious TK Raw Force power than, we can conclude that Prime Vader pretty much stomps anyone on that Jedi team.

@mygod000:

"You are established as a Vader downplayer." I'm really not I know he's > Rots Palpatine in canon I just don't like it when people downplay ROTJ Luke with "Vader was holding back."

I know Vader was barely even exerting himself in ESB, I'm talking about ROTJ Luke.

The ROTJ comic states that Vader brought "his full strength and power against the younger man" and that Luke had the edge against Vader even before his rage amp "The young Jedi has grown in interim and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him."

Vader not holding back is supported by the novelization "If that is your destiny." This was not his wish, but the boy was strong - if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no longer afford to hold back, as he once had."

"But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

"He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning. 'Once again, you underestimate the power of the dark side ...'"

So, I'm not downplaying Vader I'm just saying ROTJ Luke = ROTJ Vader.

Obviously Vader is leagues above Ezra and Kanan since at this time, Kanan barely became a knight and Ezra's training is incomplete. Not saying they're weak together alone, but against Vader, someone far more powerful than Dooku and Maul by a lot, they are not comparable whatsoever. Kanan dies to an explosion he could barely hold off, while Vader would have shrugged it off like he did the cruiser level destruction the Sith temple had. Against the team, I see no reason why he doesn't one-shot. He has the power and skill to handle them. Even if his skill is not enough, his power more than makes up for it. Imagine if instead of using a barrier to tank cruiser destroying explosions, he decides to use that in the form of a push or choke, ouch. He wins at the very least, no way Vader would lose this.

Again, you are omitting facts. You Baselessly assume that Base Luke=ROTJ Vader when if you actually read the Novel it make it clear that Luke was using his aggressive feelings while locking blades with Vader.

Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader’s phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.

Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor’s side. Yes, even that. Luke didn’t bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.

He had the power; the choice was his.

And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.

It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.

He took one step forward.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. “Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!”

Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.

He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.

In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy’s blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.

“I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated.

“You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight … then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

Return of the Jedi novelization

Like I said if you are going to quote something from the Novels make sure you post the whole thing, Luke was only equal with Vader when he was using his Anger.

Lastly, That was only talking about them being Around equals in Dueling with a light saber not in force Powers. Vaders power in the force is beyond ROTS Sidious. Luke wasn't even close to that level of power yet, he was only great in dueling he has no force feats that put him in the same tier as Yoda Let alone ROTS Sidious.

Vader with Luke Could easily kill Sidious, and he knew this. Sidious was already scared of Vader, and wanted to make sure Vader was loyal only to him which is why he kept testing him.

in ROTJ Sidious was scared of Luke because Luke could turn his father against Sidious, that was the whole point of Luke to turn Vader back Good so he can destroy Sidious.

Vader had good in him as the white butterfly signifies the Good that is left in Vader he wasn't fulling into the Dark side, and could be brought back Which Luke Did and turned vader on Sidious.

Vader wins this battle here he is far too powerful for anyone on the Jedi team. Vader is around par with a much more powerful Sidious then the one that killed these guys, Vader while 14 years pre-prime was peer of ROTS Sidious in Raw force powers.

their best bet is a light saber duel since Mace if he use Vapaad could get to around ROTS Sidious level in duel but the others are clear fodder. Kit-fisto is like a tier 7 so he is instantly killed and so is the rest.

@mygod000:

"Luke was only equal with Vader when he was using his Anger." Luke was using his anger but that is still his base state, Anakin and Luke are both always using their aggressive feelings but it's still they're normal power. Luke was fully using his anger when Vader threatened Leia and Darth Vader always uses his anger why didn't it help him against Luke?

"Lastly, That was only talking about them being Around equals in Dueling with a light saber not in force Powers. Vaders power in the force is beyond ROTS Sidious. Luke wasn't even close to that level of power yet," Lightsaber dueling is just an extension of the force, Vader was able to match Palpatine in speed in a canon novel (I forgot it's name you've most likely read it). Someone like Obi-Wan is comparable to Yoda in pure technical skill but Yoda would stomp him if they were to fight. I'm not trying to disrespect Vader if that's what you think I'm coming off as but Luke is equal to him by ROTJ.

"Vader had good in him as the white butterfly signifies the Good that is left in Vader he wasn't fulling into the Dark side, and could be brought back Which Luke Did and turned vader on Sidious." Yeah, Anakin saved Luke at the end too bad his legacy never lasted long disappointing.

"their best bet is a light saber duel since Mace if he use Vapaad could get to around ROTS Sidious level in duel but the others are clear fodder. Kit-fisto is like a tier 7 so he is instantly killed and so is the rest." I think Mace will fight at a similar level as to when he did against Palpatine being faced with the fallen Anakin Skywalker. The b-team were caught off guard by Palps, Vader might know that technique as well but I'll give it to him in a good fight since he's large versatility might not let him get overwhelmed.

"Kit-fisto is like a tier 7 so he is instantly killed and so is the rest" Kit-Fisto is a tier 77 Nick Gillard just mixed up the numbers he'll let Vader kill him so he can become a force-ghost and observe from a higher plane of existence.

that not the point the power was him using his aggressive feelings and anger boosted his power, for Both Jedi and Sith the More emotion you use the more powerful you are.

I know how Luke and Anakin Anger does, but do you? because you are the one trying to act like Luke wasn't amped in his duel with Vader.

Vader Matched Sidious in Speed during Lords of the Sith. if you are saying Dueling is an extension of the force then you need to yield, Because Anakin is stated to be on par with ROTJ Sidious and Yoda. Lords of the Sith Vader>Anakin.

My point was proven here, Luke was using dark side Powers to match Vader in light saber dueling. using Aggressive emotions in the force makes you more powerful.

No, it wasn't Luke in base form it was Dark side enraged Luke that was dueling Vader and matching him blow for blow.

@mygod000:

"because you are the one trying to act like Luke wasn't amped in his duel with Vader." Luke was amped when Leia was threatened he reached a power beyond Vader beforehand he was only equal to him or slightly better

"you need to yield, Because Anakin is stated to be on par with ROTJ Sidious and Yoda. Lords of the Sith Vader>Anakin." ROTS* Palpatine and what does that have to do with anything, I know Vader is far stronger than Anakin in canon.

"No, it wasn't Luke in base form it was Dark side enraged Luke that was dueling Vader and matching him blow for blow." Even after Luke stopped using his dark emotions he was able to react to and match vader in his base state

"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!"

Luke was defeating Vader using his dark emotions he was able to contend without them.

You bought up one moment where Luke is able to block and that all of sudden Negates everything else? WTF type of logic are you using? Luke for 98% of that duel was using the Dark side. Luke came back to his senses after He had attacked Vader with furry of lunges, and attacking more aggressively which dramatically increased Luke's power.

while Vader was Conflicted the whole battle. Luke even stated that Vader wouldn't be able to kill him at all like he couldn't in the other two battles before.

Luke had the upper hand because He hindered Vader unbalanced him, while using furry attacks at him amped by his Darker emotions. the novels clearly portray Luke using anger against Vader the whole duel and matching Vader due to his anger otherwise they wouldn't have made such an emphases on him getting powerful. the Novels make it clear that Vader if he truly wanted to could have killed Luke but he couldn't like Luke stated.

Vader destroys this Jedi team.

@dalootajr:

also, I've never downplayed Luke, He is my 4th Favorite in Star wars under Anakin(who is my number 1 favorite), Vader(who is my number 2), and Sidious(who is my number 3)

I've always said Anakin, Luke, and Leia are the 3 most talented Jedi to ever exist in star wars Mythos.

My dude you are omitting facts which is what I am getting you to understand, Luke in that fight with VAder was using the Dark side the whole time. You've only mentioned one time in that whole Duel where Luke wasn't using the dark side which can easily be answered by Vader being conflicted and not wanting to Kill Luke. If Luke wasn't Vader Son, and he came at Vader with that he would be dead instantly. canon Vader is peer of ROTJ Sidious who is wayyyy more powerful than ROTS Sidious.

Luke is powerful, but he isn't ROTS Sidious power, but using the dark side of the force he can easily get to Sidious and Vader level because of his potential.

Anakin/vader has the highest potential ever in star wars, next is Luke=Leia, then Ben.

@mygod000: mention me tomorrow if you want a reply I can't rn

Vader is a 9, some would even argue bordering 10.

Mace is a high 9, some would argue bordering 10.

Kit, Saesee and Agen are all high 7’s or low 8‘s.

Vader isn’t winning this. Mace alone can compete well enough with Vader, possibly win.