@dalootajr said:
@mygod000:
"You are established as a Vader downplayer." I'm really not I know he's > Rots Palpatine in canon I just don't like it when people downplay ROTJ Luke with "Vader was holding back."
I know Vader was barely even exerting himself in ESB, I'm talking about ROTJ Luke.
The ROTJ comic states that Vader brought "his full strength and power against the younger man" and that Luke had the edge against Vader even before his rage amp "The young Jedi has grown in interim and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him."
Vader not holding back is supported by the novelization "If that is your destiny." This was not his wish, but the boy was strong - if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no longer afford to hold back, as he once had."
"But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."
"He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning. 'Once again, you underestimate the power of the dark side ...'"
So, I'm not downplaying Vader I'm just saying ROTJ Luke = ROTJ Vader.
Again, you are omitting facts. You Baselessly assume that Base Luke=ROTJ Vader when if you actually read the Novel it make it clear that Luke was using his aggressive feelings while locking blades with Vader.
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader’s phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.
Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor’s side. Yes, even that. Luke didn’t bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.
He had the power; the choice was his.
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
He took one step forward.
For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. “Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!”
Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy’s blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.
“I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated.
“You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight … then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
Return of the Jedi novelization
Like I said if you are going to quote something from the Novels make sure you post the whole thing, Luke was only equal with Vader when he was using his Anger.
Vader with Luke Could easily kill Sidious, and he knew this. Sidious was already scared of Vader, and wanted to make sure Vader was loyal only to him which is why he kept testing him.
in ROTJ Sidious was scared of Luke because Luke could turn his father against Sidious, that was the whole point of Luke to turn Vader back Good so he can destroy Sidious.
Vader had good in him as the white butterfly signifies the Good that is left in Vader he wasn't fulling into the Dark side, and could be brought back Which Luke Did and turned vader on Sidious.
Vader wins this battle here he is far too powerful for anyone on the Jedi team. Vader is around par with a much more powerful Sidious then the one that killed these guys, Vader while 14 years pre-prime was peer of ROTS Sidious in Raw force powers.
their best bet is a light saber duel since Mace if he use Vapaad could get to around ROTS Sidious level in duel but the others are clear fodder. Kit-fisto is like a tier 7 so he is instantly killed and so is the rest.
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