Darth Vader VS Mace Windu (Canon)

I'm pretty sure Vaapad etc is all legends now and in current canon Vader is pretty much shown to be joint top spot with Sidious or at least close to it.

Vader takes Mace every round with the saber being the closest fight, I dont think any Jedi can hope to take him 1v1 except for perhaps Yoda in his prime and obviously prime Luke or young Luke since he conflicts Vader.

@nfactor1995: Pretty much agree with you

Vader all rounds apart from sabers

Mace one-shots in all rounds. Vader consistently struggles against massively sub-Yoda people like Eeth Koth, IG-102, Obi-Wan, and Luke.

R1 Will definitely be the toughest for Vader, but I'd argue that he can still pull a small majority here, though Mace could easily come out on top.

R2 Is pretty much going to be a stomp, Windu has no force feats to contend here.

R3 It'll be a tough fight for sure, but I'd argue that Vader has all the tools he needs to win.

It seems the people saying Vader would lose haven't kept up with canon Vader. Vader takes all three rounds here. I'm a huge Mace Windu fan but Canon Vader is on a whole another level. The person using Koth and saying Vader and him were even, re-read the comic. It's obvious Vader enjoys dueling and it looked like he was just toying with Koth because Koth looked beaten and ragged during the duel. Seems like Vader was waiting for Koth's child to be brought back so Vader could let him see what they were going to do, then swiftly kill him. Koth is also one of the best duelists in the order and was on the counsel so even if it was a good match, well, that explains it. More than likely Vader just enjoying the duel and enjoying battering Koth with the force. Vader is sadistic when it comes to Jedi.

The people saying Mace is as good if not better with the force lmfao! Mace doesn't have any feats that even compare to some single issues of canon Vader lol. Vader fighting the Lylek alone proves he's on another level. Which it's obvious have you people haven't read that novel nor the canon comics because when you say Mace is better with the force, you prove your lack of Vader knowledge. Vader was moving so fast, Sidious said it was a blur and he was force pushing and crushing the Lyleks against the cave walls and ripping them to shreds. These are creatures that lightsabers can hardly cut and blasters have no effect.

Vader even killed a queen while being crushed and threw his saber in it's mouth.

People talk about Mace fighting the Sidious. All Mace did was kick his saber out of his hand lol. It's not like he speed blitzed Sidious and cut him down. So much evidence points to the Emperor holding back during the fight, to prolong it so Anakin would arrive and see Mace trying to kill him. At one point Mace misses a head strike and Sidious puts his blade to Mace's chest, yet doesn't take the kill shot, just stands there for seconds, waiting, giving Mace a chance to defend. The look on Mace's face alone shows he knew he screwed up. Yet, ask yourself why Sidious doesn't take the kill strike? Commonsense would say because he knew if he killed Mace right there and then and Anakin arrived and seen 4 slain Jedi, Anakin sure wouldn't want to join him, more than likely they'd fight.

He had to give Anakin a choice, a choice to either let him die or help him to save Padme. It had to be a quick and rash decision. I guess during the duel and holding back, Sidious made a mistake and Mace kicked his saber out of his hand. However Sidious never used the force to try and shove mace, choke or anything during the duel, we know Sidious loves to force wield. Sidious even pretends he's too weak, trying to get Anakin to intervene and as soon as Anakin does, Sidious springs to life, saying Unlimited power. Proving he was faking the weakness.

People in this forum talk like Mace just owned Sidious and stomped him lol. All he did was kick his saber out of his hand lol. Sidious even stated he hates Lightsabers and prefers the force in canon. Quit acting like Mace cut him down or man handled him. If they fought again, Mace could have easily been the loser of the duel for all you know. It's not like Mace was just throwing Sidious around, the duel was evenly matched, well if you forget the part where Mace missed that head strike and sidious had his saber to his chest for seconds and didn't take the kill shot.

Sidious held back, no one will convince me other wise and Mace got the best of him. Imagine holding back against one of the best duelists there is, you're going to wish you hadn't.

Sorry for the bible.

Vader wins!

Enlighten yourself.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lords_of_the_Sith

Vader Beats Mace easily.

Vader with the force can easily bring down Flying ships with the force. which is greater than any force feat Mace has shown in canon.

Vader was able to react to Lords of the Sith Sidious which is 5 years Past ROTS. which proves he easily as fast if not faster than Mace.

Canon Vader is too much for Mace he takes every round comfortably apart from dueling which can go either way.

Canon Vader is like a God now so he wins

Windu takes the first round, he is more athletic and can move around better. And being second only to Yoda in the jedi council is an impressive feature. Vader wins the other two rounds, after the events of Revenge of the sith, Anakin has grown even more potent with the force.

Mace wins Rounds 1 and 3 while Vader takes force.

Vader solo

Mace. He's more skilled and rivals Sidious in the Force. Vader is arguably around the same level in the Force but he's not anywhere near as skilled.

nope...Mace doesn't rival Sidious.

>Struggled with Maul who TCW Sidious stomped.

> couldn't defeat Dooku

Yeah...i see nothing that puts Mace as rivals To Sidious. Vader at least has statements and rivals a more powerful than Sidious.

Why do people think Mace isn't strong with the force. If he is extremely powerful in swordsmanship then he could possibly be just as strong in the force. He might be even stronger in the force than he is in dueling since all the top Jedi are stronger in the force than in dueling.

Round 1 is close, but I said with Vader considering Palpatine may have thrown the fight, and even if he didn't Vader can still arguably win. Vader wins round 2 for sure, and he should win round 3 as well.

@mygod000:

nope...Mace doesn't rival Sidious.

>Struggled with Maul who TCW Sidious stomped.

TCW Mace =/= ROTS Mace. You're also making an assumption off of one panel where Mace is compensating for a far weaker and less skilled fighter (Adi). Sidious wasn't nearly as limited. Throw in Sidious' virtually all-knowing knowledge of Maul's fighting technique and nuances, and this isn't exactly a fair comparison.

> couldn't defeat Dooku

Please provide a source for this.

Yeah...i see nothing that puts Mace as rivals To Sidious. Vader at least has statements and rivals a more powerful than Sidious.

Mace has actually fought and matched Sheev, so I don't know why you're acting like he doesn't rival him. Throw in stalemating Mother Talzin (who was using magic Mace had no real counter for), and he has enough standing compared to Vader.

As for Vader's apparent rivalling Sidious, a fraction of Sidious' power was enough to challenge Vader as of 14 BBY (the same year as JFO), performing virtually equally to him for the entire novel:

Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.

Throw in the amount of times Vader has either shown fear of Sidious or Sidious has told Vader he could kill him (which the latter has never disputed), and it's pretty clear that the two aren't rivals. The same can't be said for Mace and Sheev.

Mace takes all rounds with ease. He's on an entirely different level.

Vader in a great fight.

Vader more skilled than a Palpatine or no?

Yes

Canon Mace beat ROTS Palps in a duel without having a circumstantial amp from Vapaad in the form of a Superconducting loop nor from having a Darkside amp from feeling that the republic had been betrayed. He was just that good. I'm not Sure Vader could beat ROTS Palps in a duel tbh.

I'd say that Canon wise Vader now outstrips Mace in feats of the force now.

All out that superiority may grant him a win where nothing is restricted.

if we go by portrayal mace

if we go by scaling,statements and feats vader especially if its prime.

@lord_god said:

@breakofdawn said:

Mace. He's more skilled and rivals Sidious in the Force. Vader is arguably around the same level in the Force but he's not anywhere near as skilled.

Vader more skilled than a Palpatine or no?

One source that's outstripped by basically every other comparison between the two, including by Vader himself.

@breakofdawn:

TCW Mace =/= ROTS Mace. You're also making an assumption off of one panel where Mace is compensating for a far weaker and less skilled fighter (Adi). Sidious wasn't nearly as limited. Throw in Sidious' virtually all-knowing knowledge of Maul's fighting technique and nuances, and this isn't exactly a fair comparison.

well Prove their was a Significant time skip between When Mace Fought Maul and ROTS.

S6 of TCW was like 6 months from ROTS.

Please provide a source for this.

It shown in the movie, no scan is needed for something that is well known in the franchise. He had Dooku and couldn't capitalize on it.

Mace has actually fought and matched Sheev, so I don't know why you're acting like he doesn't rival him. Throw in stalemating Mother Talzin (who was using magic Mace had no real counter for), and he has enough standing compared to Vader.

As for Vader's apparent rivalling Sidious, a fraction of Sidious' power was enough to challenge Vader as of 14 BBY (the same year as JFO), performing virtually equally to him for the entire novel:

Put up a decent fight against Sidious sure. Rivals Sidious? it debatable if Sidious was even trying during that fight. Regardless....beginning Suit Vader rivals ROTS Sidious.

out of universe sources have Vader better light saber duelist than Sidious. Vader can actually kill Sidious.

Throw in the amount of times Vader has either shown fear of Sidious or Sidious has told Vader he could kill him (which the latter has never disputed), and it's pretty clear that the two aren't rivals. The same can't be said for Mace and Sheev.

That's a false equivalence fallacy. You are Comparing Vader against Post ROTS Sidious...who is much stronger and more powerful than he was during ROTS. Then comparing Mace with ROTS Sidious as if it really relevant.

Vader is par with sidious and in fact he can actually kill Sidious, the only difference is if he does then he dies as well.

Vader in a weaker state already showed Sidious he is powerful enough force push him. Something Mace didn't even do in his battle with a weaker Sidious.

Vader just starting out in his Suit Rivals ROTS Sidious. Post ROTS Vader and Sidious are parity with each other.

You act as if Vader and Sidious didn't continue to get stronger and more powerful after ROTS. Hard for you to even make a relevant point when Mace powers stops at ROTS while Vader and sidious keep growing after ROTS.

@mygod000:

well Prove their was a Significant time skip between When Mace Fought Maul and ROTS.

S6 of TCW was like 6 months from ROTS.

There was a gap of about 2 hours between Anakin and KFV, yet one is obviously far more powerful than the other. Time means nothing when the Force user goes through events that boost their abilities. Mace's event was the end of the war. Even assuming he didn't, he was compensating for Aayla and trying to take Maul alive, not kill him. It's a poor example to use against Mace.

Fortunately, I don't need to prove Mace grew stronger since he's already performed well against Talzin (stalemating her and her magic) and has very few anti-feats to his name. Vader doesn't even have the feats against Sidious level beings to support his position.

It shown in the movie, no scan is needed for something that is well known in the franchise. He had Dooku and couldn't capitalize on it.

You're referring to AOTC, I assume? If so, this is a weird argument. He had the drop on Dooku so he clearly could have killed him. At this point, Mace still didn't believe Dooku was a Sith and was still a Jedi, so he didn't try to strike him down.

Put up a decent fight against Sidious sure. Rivals Sidious? it debatable if Sidious was even trying during that fight.

Until you present evidence showing that he wasn't (when according to multiple sources - including Lucas - the two were actively trying to defeat each other during the lightsaber duel), this is pure conjecture.

Regardless....beginning Suit Vader rivals ROTS Sidious.

Unless you're willing to concede that S2 Kanan + Ezra are powerful enough when combined to be a threat to Vader, please don't use a case of Vader surprising Sidious with a physical outburst when passive Force barriers don't exist in Canon.

out of universe sources have Vader better light saber duelist than Sidious.

One source. Let's not exaggerate here.

Vader can actually kill Sidious.

Interesting that he never tried then, isn't it?

That's a false equivalence fallacy. You are Comparing Vader against Post ROTS Sidious...who is much stronger and more powerful than he was during ROTS. Then comparing Mace with ROTS Sidious as if it really relevant.

It was a couple of weeks at best after ROTS. It's far from a false equivalence.

Vader is par with sidious and in fact he can actually kill Sidious, the only difference is if he does then he dies as well.

Of what, boredom? If Vader could have killed Sidious or if he were on par with Sidious, he wouldn't fear him and would have tried to kill him.

Vader in a weaker state already showed Sidious he is powerful enough force push him.

Passive Force barriers don't exist in Canon.

Something Mace didn't even do in his battle with a weaker Sidious.

First, the duel was a lightsaber contest. Second, Sidious failed to do the same to Mace, so your point is moot. Third, please provide evidence that Canon Sidious suddenly became more powerful a day or two after Mace and him fought.

Vader just starting out in his Suit Rivals ROTS Sidious. Post ROTS Vader and Sidious are parity with each other.

You're repeating yourself. This is empty and false rhetoric.

You act as if Vader and Sidious didn't continue to get stronger and more powerful after ROTS.

When did I even imply that? I said Vader never tried to kill Sidious, even as of the end of ROTS despite hating him. That's pretty telling of their power disparity.

Hard for you to even make a relevant point when Mace powers stops at ROTS while Vader and sidious keep growing after ROTS.

So the sub-Mace Vader continued to grow by an unquantifiable margin after ROTS, and it took him 5 years to stalemate an out of practice (albeit highly motivated) Eeth Koth (who's far from being on Mace's level) in sabers...yet you expect me to believe that he grew to ROTS Sidious/Mace/Yoda+ levels prior to the end of his emotional prime after ANH yet was still challenged by Ahsoka and would have been challenged by a post-prime and now insane Darth Maul as of his emotional (and thus combative prime) in Rebels.

Yeah, not buying it.

@breakofdawn:

And where exactly is your evidence that Mace was "compensating for Aayla"? Even 10+1 is greater than the sum of its parts.

So...if you believe Anakin in 2 hours got more powerful...then why are you using double Standards about Post ROTS Sidious>ROTS sidious?

Vader did Tried to kill Sidious after the end of ROTS... He didn't Stalemate Eeth Koth...he literally beat him and let him live so he could see his kid be taken from him.

How do you know what Eeth Koth Rivals? do you have any sources that show them fighting each pre ROTS? regardless this is 5 years after ROTS...so how is relevant now when in that time his connection with the force could greatly increases since them.

Vader rivals Post ROTS Sidious. same person who author of SoD States Vader>>Maul which takes place right after S5 Maul fights Sidious.

Then we have Statements that Vader is light years above Maul and Dooku.

@breakofdawn:

Vader solos with casual ease, stomp.

Mace Windu fanboyism disgusts me and the ahsoka wank is sickening.

Darth Vader can casually flip a control switch with his TK, no one here can do that

And he can easily throw a pistol a few feet

What an unfair stomp, Vader solos. Such Vader lowball is sad really.

And yes you may said Mace beated Pelpetine such argument is stupid and shoudnt be considered but what if I said that Vader was always better than Palpatine.

Instead Vader considers someone like Karbin not worth his time and Karbin is an improved version of General Grievous

Now let's remember, Mace window is so bad that Grievous had the upperhand on Mace when Grievous was massively hindered because he had his legs magnetized to the maglev train yet Mace couldn't beat him :).

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

-- Labyrinth of Evil

Yet when Vader fights Karbin he considers him a non factor. Vader>>>Mace whether it is duelling or force. There I just debunk Mace windu nonsense with ease haha. Mace is not more skilled than Darth Vader because vader wins :)). So here we establish that General Grievous>>>Windu

'Windu wanted to end the fight as quickly as he could because he was scared that Grievous would beat him which was true' 'Also Vader would stomp Palpatine in Windu together it's not even close'

--Labyrinth of evil

because Windu was losing when Grievous was hindered, which is pathetic if you ask me :/. and Karbin >>>>>>>Grievous and Vader>>>>>>>>>>Karbin so therefore Vader>>>>>>>>>>>>Karbin>>>>>>>>>Grievous>>>>>Windu. Vader stomp Windu we even have canon statement saying Vader would easily stomp Palpatine and Windu . Windu debunked easy. Vader solo stomps

@mygod000: Do you agree or no?

@lord_god: ...I can't believe I didn't remember half of this. You're right, Vader lolstomps. Mace in Canon is probably TPM Maul level compared to Vader.

Yea, I don't think Canon Mace is TPM Maul level...I think he is above that maul...but yes Vader does stomp him.

Legends Vader Vs Legends Mace would be a much closer fight.

I agree that Karbin>>>Grevious.

I can't really speak on the Mace Vs Grevious fight because I haven't read or seen that one before.

Vader does indeed Destroy Mace Windu, in Canon Vader is far closer to Sidious level.

Vader wins

Windu has this w/ Vaapad.

God scaling

>OP says Canon Mace

>LoE quotes being used

gotta love CV

To be fair it's a troll post so that was probably intentional.

Labyrinth of Evil taked place right Revenge of the Sith and Revenge of the Sith canon.

Mace Windu

@sunada: @subline:

Got an evidence for prove Mace Win?

Wrong. Lord_God is the ultimate and undisputed canon Vader expert. If he thinks canon Mace is around Maul level, then he is, and Vader stomps.

As for Legends, a tier 8 versus a tier 9? Yikes.

Mace is borderline tier 9 in legends...Vader is Basically tier 9 during ROTJ.

@mygod000: Mace is borderline tier 9 in legends...

Mace is a tier 9. The "8, bordering on 9" stuff is based on comments by Gillard years after the films were released, when he clearly had trouble remembering specific cases. Because he's not a Lucasfilm rep and it wasn't something Lucas approved like the Making of Revenge of the Sith series (when Mace was stated to be a 9 and one of only three people who could compete with and potentially beat Sidious), it can be chucked aside.

Vader is Basically tier 9 during ROTJ.

Why do you think this, out of curiosity?

Vader is just astronomically more powerful in the force, and is canonically confirmed to be superior to Anakin. Mace can make it a battle via sheer skill but Vader would annihilate him with his force abilities, to the point where a saber duel is just unnecessary

well at the end of ROTJ it stated that Vader skill increased to the point it was greater than it ever was before.

Even being objective and say he didn't surpass Anakin in Light saber combat...we can see put ROTJ Vader in Legends at tier 9...While Anakin was above Both Sidious and Yoda in Light saber Skill.

He can still be a tier 9 and still be weaker than Anakin at his Best during the Dark side.

Vader All rounds

Even in saber.

@mygod000:

The realm of the films has always shined favourably upon Mace Windu, and it's conveniently the highest canon material in both continuities. Mace rivals Yoda & Sidious, somewhere in between them:

"Sidious is a level nine. In this film, Obi is eight -- he's moved up -- Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious."

~ Nick Gillard, The Making of Revenge of the Sith

“There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.”

~ Nick Gillard

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know he's second only to Yoda."

-- Nick Gillard

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda. If he gets within range, there's no question... you're dead."

-- Nick Gillard

"And uh, you know, Sam didn't want to die like a wimp. I don't think any of us wanted Sam to die like a wimp, Sam certainly wasn't gonna die like a wimp. And, so we did a fantastic fight, like a hundred move fight. He came in late, we only got him for four days, because of his you know shooting another movie, but we managed to crank up the rigour and the funk in the rehearsal room... y'know, we kept him on his toes, and I think that fight's phenomenal. Mace has a dark side to him, he's gonna, Mace is gonna attack and if he gets within three feet of you, you're likely to get, get killed."

~ Nick Gillard

"They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword."

~ Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

"Since I'm supposedly the second baddest person in the universe, uh, I'm pretty efficient. I don't do a lot of um, fancy sword twirling or anything. I dispense people pretty quickly, use as little energy as possible."

-- Samuel Jackson

Mace IMO is faster due to less armor. Mace wins high diff.