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#1 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (25059 posts) - - Show Bio
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Darth Vader (Composite Canon & Legends)

VS

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Flashy Flash

In character

Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Death

Random encounter

Standard gear and abilities

Fight takes place at an unpopulated city setting at night

Who'd win? For what reasons?

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#3 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8498 posts) - - Show Bio

This battle depends entirely on where you place Vader speed wise. If, like me, you believe he's got supersonic combat speed with pre-cog, he gets horribly blitzed and subsequently stomped. If you think he's light speed or something, he'd win.

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#4 Edited by Eredin12 (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader wins, he is much above supersonic speed.

He is Faster than ROTS obi wan

Ferus Olin confirmed that .

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

And this is how fast is obi wan

Kenobi is so fast that he appears to be in three places at once whilst landing several hits on a beast:

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Several examples of Kenobi effortlessly dodging and deflecting tens of hypersonic blaster bolts:

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Here much much weaker Obi-wan, in his weakest version easily mvoes at FTE speed

Obi-Wan Kenobi moves faster than the eye can follow:

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Obi-Wan deflects blasters from hundreds of droids with ease :

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Obi-Wan deflects blaster fire from an entire army:

"An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...

Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides."

Revenge of the Sith novel

Kenobi forms a "wheel of lightning" out of his blade:

Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Kenobi demonstrate speeds of a respectable fraction of light:

Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

Obi-Wan Kenobi forms a circle of blue light around him as he blitzes droids, keep in mind that droids are blaster timers( hypersonic reaction)

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Now that we know how insanely fast is Kenobi, Vader is confirmed to be faster

Here are some of his other good speed feats

He kills Roan Lands before Ferus Olin can react, proving that he could easily speedblitzed the latter:

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Also here Vader is easily FTE to an enraged Ferus Olin who attacks him:

This was it, then. The final confrontation.

He was ready. His rage was ice and fire.

He charged.

His first blow was easily parried. He came at Vader again. Again. Circling, jumping, vaulting past him, turning. Each time his lightsaber came toward him, it was eilher deflected in a shock that ran up his arm, Vader simply wasn't there.

---

Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning

Why is this impresive? Well becase

After reconnecting with the Force, Ferus is able to almost match Obi-Wan Kenobi in speed as they dodge the notorious bounty hunter, Boba Fett and his Cyborg ally.

Ferus's Jedi training made him move quicker than an ordinary bystander, dodging almost in time with Obi-Wan.

—The Last of The Jedi: Dark Warning

Ferus easily is easily FTE in speed.

Ferus strikes. He streaks through the dark night, invisible but for his glowing blade.

—Star Wars: Rebel Force: Hostage

Ferus appears to be in several places at once.

He(Ferus) moved so fast that he almost seemed to be in two or three places at once.

—Star Wars: Rebel Force: Hostage

Here, Lune “Div” Divinian, a Force adept trained by Garen Mull, Ry-Gaul and Fy-Tor-Ana, muses that Ferus could disarm him with ease. It should be noted that Divinian has moved with incredible speed, taught Luke Skywalker Shii-Cho and Soresu. And is regarded as a master swordsman.

Yet Vader is easily FTE to him and blitzes someone before Ferus can even react, befroe he can even react.

So he should have no problems fighting and reacting to Flash, in fact, i would argue that Vader is probably faster, on top of that Vader is probably much more skilled.

Also, he really cannot do anything to prevent Vader from ragdolling him with TK and killing him with his own sword or simply paralyzing him and kiling him with a lightsaber, and Vader can probably crush him as well with his Telekinesis.

So Vader wins.

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#5 Posted by Morpheus_ (34660 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash blitzes.

Online
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#6 Edited by Bearderby (528 posts) - - Show Bio

Flashy Flash can land multiple attacks in 0.01 seconds and is hypersonic in overall movements
Vader is not even close to supersonic, he can't even run fast as a cheetah, no feats that he can react to hypersonic speeds

Speed o Sound Sonic who is currently supersonic+ is more than enough to blitz Vader

mismatch

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#7 Posted by Sy8000 (35755 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash destroys him.

Online
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#8 Posted by Lsoon23 (427 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader stomps.

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#9 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44292 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for Flash?

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#10 Posted by UltraShaggy (1254 posts) - - Show Bio

Composite Vader??? With legends feats??? He solo OPM(maybe expect the ones with extreme regeneration)

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#11 Posted by KillBilly (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader.

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#12 Posted by Gaoron (9224 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash blitzes dozens times over cutting him limb by limb.

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#13 Posted by bouncyhippo (557 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader force choke stomp.

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#14 Posted by AlphaQ (6484 posts) - - Show Bio

Flashy Flash welcomes him to Blitz City.

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#15 Edited by KillBilly (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if Flash were capable of blitzing a being who is faster then somebody who could dodge/block tens of thousands of projectiles moving at at least hypersonic speeds ( hint: he can't ) he doesn't have the power to pierce Vader's shields. Vader shielded himself against a city sized explosion when already injured and weakened:

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Due to FF being unable to defend against either TK or TP and Vader's own defenses, Vader wouldn't even have to move to defeat his opponent.

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#16 Edited by AlphaQ (6484 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly said:

Even if Flash were capable of blitzing a being who is faster then somebody who could dodge/block tens of thousands of projectiles moving at at least hypersonic speeds ( hint: he can't ) he doesn't have the power to pierce Vader's shields. Vader shielded himself against a city sized explosion when already injured and weakened:

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Due to FF being unable to defend against either TK or TP and Vader's own defenses, Vader wouldn't even have to move to defeat his opponent.

Who has Vader shown himself to be faster than that can block tens of thousands of projectiles, and when have they done so? Also, why place blaster bolts at hypersonic minimum? I assume the Mace Windu stuff?

I suspect you're talking about the ROTS Obi-Wan novel thing, right? I will preemptively point out that Obi-Wan's feat of dodging/blocking those blaster bolts was retconned out of being canon upon the release of the ROTS movie, which succeeded it. The movie, the later and more authoritative source, portrays Grevious explicitly telling his troops not to fire upon Kenobi, unlike in the novel where he was portrayed as doing the opposite, with them obeying him in both instances. That feat, that gets used quite a bit in the Vine, is non-canon. Now, perhaps you're referring to a different feat, so I will wait for you to clarify if you want to.

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#17 Edited by KillBilly (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Who has Vader shown himself to be faster than that can block tens of thousands of projectiles,

Obi Wan Kenobi:

"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda." - Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Ferus Olin, of course, fought alongside Kenobi only a year or two after RotS in a fight for their lives against the bounty hunter Boba Fett.

and when have they done so?

In the RotS novelization:

Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there... Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid." - Revenge of the Sith.

Also, why place blaster bolts at hypersonic minimum? I assume the Mace Windu stuff?

That among others:

"Luke pressed the trigger and held it down—then felt his jaw drop as bolts began to ricochet off the High Lord’s palm. It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them, the High Lord’s hand had risen to deflect it, traveling so fast that the appendage had literally seemed to disappear from one place and reappear in another." - Vortex.

-

"Though the transparisteel in the doors at the end of the main hall he could see distant flashes, narrow red bolts heading one way at the speed of light." - The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand.

-

"The wave of charged particles blew over her at lightspeed, nearly - but not quite - generating enough static to drown out Gavin's fierce cry of exultation." - The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory - Book II.

You might bring up that blaster bolts don't appear to move at these speeds in their visual depictions, ICS addresses this however, providing the technical reason for why this is:

"Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow." - Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections.

The reason I went with hypersonic as opposed to lightspeed was purely for your benefit since that's the baseline that can be established via various other sources.

I suspect you're talking about the ROTS Obi-Wan novel thing, right? I will preemptively point out that Obi-Wan's feat of dodging/blocking those blaster bolts was retconned out of being canon upon the release of the ROTS movie, which succeeded it. The movie, the later and more authoritative source, portrays Grevious explicitly telling his troops not to fire upon Kenobi, unlike in the novel where he was portrayed as doing the opposite, with them obeying him in both instances.

It wasn't retconned. It's simply supplementary material that was not depicted in the movie itself. It's similar to the petition of 2,000 scene in RotS being a deleted scene. It still happened in the novel and is therefore still canon to Legends continuity. Even if it had been contradicted, like the orders Grievous gave were, that would not keep the event from existing within Legends. Lucas is on record stating that Boba Fett died in the sarlaac pit but Boba appears throughout numerous post-RotJ works. Are we now going to say that this invalidates all those works he appeared in or any subsequent works that he would have had to have effected? I'm sure that wasn't what the OP of the thread intended. Luckily, we can simply ask them to clarify the matter for us. @life_without_progress

That feat, that gets used quite a bit in the Vine, is non-canon. Now, perhaps you're referring to a different feat, so I will wait for you to clarify if you want to.

While we're waiting for the OP to clarify what feats THEY intend us to use you can also take Kenobi and Anakin blocking blaster fire from an army of hundreds, possibly thousands of droids that had them surrounded ( a feat that they and those slower than them have replicated more then once ). While it's not as impressive as the RotS feat, it's more then suitable to make my point. Flashy Flash cannot blitz a being who is faster then someone who dodged/blocked this amount of blaster fire. Even if he could, you have not shown anything to suggest that Flashy Flash would be capable of piercing Vader's defenses or defending against TP/TK. I'd be interested in seeing you provide evidence for him being able to do so.

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#18 Edited by AlphaQ (6484 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly1q2ws: I can't make a proper response to you at the moment because of IRL time constraints so I'll respond to the most interesting part of your comment. I should respond tomorrow but if I forget and you want to hear a response form me, please tag me.

It wasn't retconned. It's simply supplementary material that was not depicted in the movie itself. It's similar to the petition of 2,000 scene in RotS being a deleted scene. It still happened in the novel and is therefore still canon to Legends continuity. Even if it had been contradicted, like the orders Grievous gave were, that would not keep the event from existing within Legends. Lucas is on record stating that Boba Fett died in the sarlaac pit but Boba appears throughout numerous post-RotJ works. Are we now going to say that this invalidates all those works he appeared in or any subsequent works that he would have had to have effected? I'm sure that wasn't what the OP of the thread intended. Luckily, we can simply ask them to clarify the matter for us. @life_without_progress

No, I disagree, it was retconned outright. The contents of the novel are supplementary material, canon but absent from the movie, only when it does not contradict the movies, which it does in this case. I have seen quotes from Lucasfilm staff confirming that whenever there is conflict with the movies from EU sources, the movies take precedence, I couldn't find it after a quick search but I will try again if necessary, though I expect we can all agree that the movies take precedence in all cases of contradictions.

As supplementary material, the novels are only canon when they can co-exist within what is shown on-screen. If, for example, Obi-Wan and Yoda exchange dialogue on their way to the Jedi Temple, that does not conflict with what is shown in the movie and is canon. Something like Anakin watching the Mace Windu vs Palpatine fight is included in the novel, which is in direct contradiction to what is shown in the movies. Because these two events are mutually exclusive events, Anakin cannot arrive during and after the fight, the movie's version takes precedence. In the same way, Obi-Wan's confrontation and pursuit of Grevious, as depicted in the novel and movie, are completely mutually exclusive events. We can't just say that Obi-Wan confronted Grevious in the manner shown in the movie and then confronted him again in the manner described in the novel off-screen.

I'm pretty sure some deleted scenes were included in the Legends canon and some were not, that is decided in a case-by-case basis. I don't see how this addresses any point that I have made, does this deleted scene contradict content that was actually in the movie?

Even those two things you mention can't co-exist, Grevious can't give the order for the droids not to open fire on Obi-Wan and for Obi-Wan to have to dodge the fire and defeat the army before confronting Grevious. They're mutually exclusive, either the novel is correct or the movie is.

Lucas actually doesn't consider any of the EU canon, he keeps his own canon differently to Lucasfilm. In his mind Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc Pit, but under EU Legends canon Boba Fett survived. What Lucas consider canon and what Lucasfilm consider(ed) G-Canon is different, to my understanding. Things like the movie novelizations are G-Canon for Luacsfilm but Lucas considers them non-canon, for example.

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

- George Lucas

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#19 Edited by KillBilly (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: As supplementary material, the novels are only canon when they can co-exist within what is shown on-screen.

What you're referencing is the difference between content that comes directly from George Lucas and other content within Legends continuity. The problem with that is there are direct contradictions between content that comes from him and content that doesn't within Legends. Content that I don't think the OP intended to exclude from this discussion.

In the same way, Obi-Wan's confrontation and pursuit of Grevious, as depicted in the novel and movie, are completely mutually exclusive events. We can't just say that Obi-Wan confronted Grevious in the manner shown in the movie and then confronted him again in the manner described in the novel off-screen.

As you yourself pointed out, passages that depict Obi Wan and Yoda exchanging dialogue on their way to the Jedi Temple when it only shows the two of them departing to go to the Jedi Temple in the movie is fine because that fills a gap where anything could have happened. Similarly, Obi Wan's feat against the droids could have canonically occurred prior to him dropping down in front of Grievous since, within the novel, the feat actually occurs prior to Kenobi coming face to face with him. Admittedly, they do exchange dialogue prior to that in the novel and the exchange that occurs after that in the movie is altered, but that doesn't mean prior events have to be.

I'm pretty sure some deleted scenes were included in the Legends canon and some were not, that is decided in a case-by-case basis. I don't see how this addresses any point that I have made, does this deleted scene contradict content that was actually in the movie?

Simply pointing out something you yourself admitted. That if it's canon within Legends and not mutually exclusive then the event itself wasn't retconned.

Even those two things you mention can't co-exist, Grevious can't give the order for the droids not to open fire on Obi-Wan and for Obi-Wan to have to dodge the fire and defeat the army before confronting Grevious. They're mutually exclusive, either the novel is correct or the movie is.

You're subscribing to a rather narrow viewpoint. If the feat occurred prior to Kenobi dropping down in the movie, then the dialogue afterwards becomes irrelevant. The book itself notes that the droids refrained from firing on Kenobi because he was in close proximity to Grievous and firing on him would have put the cyborg general at risk as well. The order not to fire on Kenobi by Grievous in the movie was likely for that reason ( made even more likely by the fact that Lucas was heavily involved with the creation of the RotS novelization ).

"Droid guns throughout the control center fell silent; Obi-Wan stood so close to Grievous that the general was in the line of fire." - Revenge of the Sith.