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#1 Edited by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

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#2 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

Who will defend the bearded one?

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#3 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5985 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader walks through his lightning like a Theta Storm and cuts off his head.

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#4 Posted by Richard96 (5634 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader gets pimp slapped to oblivion

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#5 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader ignites his lightsaber and watches as the retard tries to limbo underneath it and dies.

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#6 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7874 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader dies.

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#8 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader can trip on his own arm but Valkorion can walk into into lightsabers. Close fight.

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#10 Posted by laflux (24722 posts) - - Show Bio

Valkorion. Come on now......

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#11 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7874 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Better showings of force power(IMO), more versatility and more hype/better implied position within the EU.

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#12 Posted by Turr (1138 posts) - - Show Bio

A very good matchup. Both are very powerful Sith Lords with great feats and outstanding force potential. Both are not the best too, just... very good. I am sure this can go either way. Ill wait to see if anyone brings a valid argument for either one to take majority.

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#13 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio
@turr said:

A very good matchup. Both are very powerful Sith Lords with great feats and outstanding force potential. Both are not the best too, just... very good. I am sure this can go either way. Ill wait to see if anyone brings a valid argument for either one to take majority.

It's okay. Not everyone can be Sidious.

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#14 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Right now I'll still go with Valkorion, though I'm very willing to hear an argument for Vader and am fully open to changing my stance.

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#15 Edited by In-sidiousvader (2411 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger Originally I had a post saying Failk would win narrowly due to his nexus but after reading the description of Vader being blood lusted, Failk gets his head and beard severed and brought to the emperor as a trophy.

But Sheev doesn't want that disgrace as trophy so using midichlorian manipulations Sheev brings Failk back to life only to disintegrate him with lightning and then for Sheev's own amusement Vader is forced to swallow the ashes for bringing that pathetic filth to degrade his Imperial Majesty's presence.

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#16 Posted by AmethystGravity (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

The thread picture is actually pretty cool.

OT: I'm not sure, and I'd like to see a case for either.

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#17 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Come on peeps. I'm on the fence. I'd like some arguments. Arguments for both sides, though mainly Vader.

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#18 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5985 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

Better showings of force power

The Force Unleashed II
The Force Unleashed II

I doubt you'll find me a feat for Failkorion that is better, or even as good as, manhandling a Force user as powerful as Starkiller "like a rag doll" far, far before his prime. Just to put this feat into perspective, Starkiller has:

  • Generated enough power with his lightning to puncture a Star Destroyer's shields, a feat that requires continent-busting firepower (link); this feat is vastly more impressive than Failkorion's lightshow against Arcann, which only downed a few nondescript ships and killed some pilots (link).
  • Shielded himself from heat comparable to the outer layers of the sun, essentially bathing in plasma, for an extended period of time (link); although not the most the most concrete piece of evidence, Failkorion has implied being dropped into a star would destroy him (couldn't find the quote on YouTube, but it is triggered by the "Maybe a star can kill you" dialogue, link).
  • Telekinetically disintegrated a 300-meter-long starship (link); Failkorion has no comparable feats in the telekinesis department.
  • Pulverized a cadre of his clones, each of whom were stated to be as at least powerful as the original Galen Marek, who boasts an impressive array of feats himself (link); Failkorion's only comparable feat, the annihilation of the Dark Council, happened under dubious circumstances, and even if we generously accept it as something he can do on the fly, it is still far inferior to Starkiller's showing, since none of the Dark Council members were anywhere near as powerful as the clones.

The only showing of Failkorion's that could be argued to establish him as a threat to Vader is the Ziost one, but it has been stated one's strength in the Force determines their telepathic resistance, and Vader's willpower feats would make mental warfare impossible on Failkorion's part anyway. The death field is a variation of Force drain, which Vader knows a defence against via a technique he learned from Ulic Qel-Droma, not to mention we know that drain isn't an instant win against someone more powerful than yourself as we see in the fight between Darth Krayt, Luke Skywalker and Abeloth. Not to mention Failkorion may not even be able to pull off the death field on his own, since Ziost was a nexus and he would have been amped during the feat.

Tales of the Jedi Companion
Tales of the Jedi Companion
Loading Video...

(8:43)

How does Failkorion have better Force feats that Darth Vader again?

more versatility

In what sense? More Force powers to use? Since morals are off for this match, we can afford Vader all the Force powers he logically should have given his accolades and standing as Emperor Palpatine's foremost apprentice, and we can expect him to abuse the hell out of them, not just rely on telekinesis and his lightsaber as he usually does.

First, let us establish that Vader retained all the knowledge of the Force he had as Anakin Skywalker (link). This means he knows all the Force powers Anakin does, which include drain resistance that he learned this from the spirit of Ulic Qel-Droma, and it allowed him to resist the Force-draining effects of the Dark Reaper, an infernal machine that could devastate entire armies of Jedi (link). If Failkorion were to ever utilize Force drain on Darth Vader, it would have no effect for a short while, during which Vader could attack in a multitude of ways. Anakin also knew every single power known by Obi-Wan Kenobi, given the latter taught him everything he knew (link). This includes Force illusion that Kenobi used to alter the features of his face, and Force drain, which he used on infant Luke Skywalker (link). Vader could use drain on Failkorion whereas due to Vader’s drain resistance, the same tactic wouldn’t work on him. Another by power that he’d know via Kenobi would be Force Death-Blow, a peculiar technique which the Jedi Master used to seemingly one-shot 21 BBY Anakin Skywalker (link).

Secondly, it must be made clear that the Emperor wanted Darth Vader to grow as a Force adept; to genuinely instruct him in the dark arts (link). To achieve these ends, the Emperor gave Vader unrestricted access to the Jedi Temple archives, the contents of which Vader could peruse from anywhere within the galaxy (link). This of course includes Jedi holocrons as mentioned by the text and also elsewhere (link), but also Sith holocrons that were stored there and fell into the hands of the Sith Lords (link). The Jedi Temple also was likened to the Sith Archives in terms of knowledge, with the latter containing Force secrets such as invisibility, teleportation, time travel and others (link). And now that we’re on the topic of the Sith archives, Vader has been stated to be a genuine Rule of Two Sith Lord (link), so it is likely the Emperor allowed him to freely study the things there, as the Archives had been passed down from Master to Apprentice for generations (link). This is quite significant, because the Banite Sith had conducted “intensive study” into “every aspect” of the Force over the past thousand years (link), meaning Vader is likely an expert in every field of the Force.

Darth Vader’s legitimacy as a Sith Lord under the Emperor also grants him benefits when we examine what the Emperor shared with lesser minions of his. Sedriss is a perfect example, actually: he was the most powerful of the Emperor’s dark side adepts and arguably of all his servants besides Vader (link), yet was deemed unworthy of true Sith apprenticeship (link). The doors this opens for Vader are quite exhilarating, given that even Sedriss was trained to wield the Force “the way the Emperor himself did” (link). Even the average dark side adept under Palpatine was learned in the ways of Sith sorcery which they could fully employ in combat both offensively and defensively as we see with Sedriss (link). The adepts were also capable of outright teleportation mid-combat (link), as well as aiding their Master in the subjugation and devouring of the populace of Byss (link). One of their most harrowing achievements, however, is “perfecting” the alchemy of Sorzus Syn, one of the greatest Sith Lords who ever lived and whose accomplishments I’ve detailed here (link). Foremost among the Adepts’ creations are the Imperial Sentinels, which the adepts transformed into extensions of their will by dominating their minds (link). The most astonishing thing about the Adepts, though, is the fact that the Emperor imparted on them the knowledge of Force storms (link), which they obviously couldn’t manifest on the same scale as their Master or fully control, but the fact that they’re able to rip apart space-time at all is a monumental feat. Yet the Emperor deemed even the most gifted and powerful one among them “moderate” as far as Force sensitives went, which speaks volumes about about how absurdly high the Emperor’s standards for Sith apprenticeship were. The implications for Vader are quite astounding, although somewhat unquantifiable in the exactness of the gap between Sedriss and himself beyond it being extremely vast and confirmation of Vader’s mastery of all the Force powers the adepts knew as well: Force drain, Sith alchemy, Sith sorcery, teleportation and Force storm.

Another person who was given a glimpse of what Darth Vader could do was Luke Skywalker during his short education as the Emperor’s protégé, learning the same things that were taught to Vader by the despotic Sith Lord (link). In the field of Sith alchemy, this consists of spawning two Imperial Sentinels and dominating their wills in the same vein as the standard dark side adepts as they responded to Luke’s commands and he referred to them as his own (link). As an illusionist, Luke was able to create a convincing replica of himself and his Father to Leia several times, one of them being from across the galaxy (link). He took this a step further, however, with the power to fashion a doppelgänger of himself, a physical dark side manifestation of himself that could interact with physical objects and cause harm, similar to Vitiate’s own demonstration (link). Most impressively, the doppelgänger possessed half of all of Luke’s attributes including Force power, essentially meaning Luke could split his very essence, his very state of being into two separate entities while controlling them both and maintaining the duplicate even in hyperspace (link). The benefits Vader gains from these feats are obvious: the Imperial Sentinel one is reinforcement for the dark side adept scaling, and the doppelgänger feat allows Vader to split himself into to distinct entities, halving his power but doubling his attack vectors, providing significantly more options in battle and variety to his onslaught overall.

Darth Vader’s own pansophy is also reflected in his student. The Starkiller clone has proven himself to be far more than a mere sledgehammer of the Force, showcasing the arcane power to outright take control of existing Force illusions and bend them to his will, as well as create ones of his own and turn invisible on command (link). Given everything he knew came straight from Vader, we can infer the Dark Lord to be a savant in these abilities as well.

The Emperor was also stated to have outright completed Darth Vader’s training in the dark side (link). The obvious benefit of being fully trained by the most knowledgeable and masterful Sith Lord in history aside, it does provide quantifiable scaling from the fact that Vader’s training was likely superior to those of Sidious’ earlier apprentices, Darths Maul and Tyranus, given how the Emperor wanted Vader to learn and actually completed his training. We can then logically use Maul and Dooku’s feats and accolades as a window into Vader’s own mastery, and the results are quite favorable for him. From Maul, he gets the accolade of possessing far superior dark side knowledge to Mighella, one of the most powerful Nightsisters (link). Even the average Nightsister is capable of shapeshifting, so one can only imagine what someone with “far superior dark side knowledge” to “one of the more powerful Nightsisters” would be capable of (link). From Dooku, Vader gains another showcase of doppelgänger that is capable of blocking lightsaber strikes with a pseudo-lightsaber created from pure dark side energy (links 1 and 2); the power to resurrect the dead (link); and all the abilities transcribed in Darth Bane’s personal manifesto, which include but are not limited to Force drain, death field, memory walk, horror, mind shard, blind and cryokinesis (link). Given that Dooku also shared Bane’s writings with Quinlan Vos, a lowly dark acolyte, it can be inferred none of these powers were particularly advanced in Dooku’s eyes, and that he knows defenses against them should Vos go turncoat. In a similar vein, Dooku had only instructed Asajj Ventress in what she deemed to be “lesser arts” (and the Count did not seemingly disagree), which is quite revealing of Dooku’s breadth of expertise as Ventress is capable of reviving the dead (link), a spell even Sorzus Syn deemed complex (link).

A few last things about Darth Vader himself I want to touch up on. It is noted that, besides his tutelage under the Emperor, he performed his own dark side studies privately, with the intent of gaining the power to overthrow the Emperor (link). Yes, he eventually concluded this to be an impossibility due to the Emperor being just that powerful, but the implications of this sentence still stand: Vader spent 23 years preparing for a confrontation with by far the most powerful, masterful, knowledgeable and godlike Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known. He was fully aware of his Master’s full capabilities, so one can only imagine what kind of techniques and powers he would have perfected to even survive such a battle, not necessarily alone but with an apprentice at his side. That, combined with all his other hype about having “completed his dark training” under the Emperor into “every aspect” of the Force, learning to “wield power the way the Emperor himself did” makes me confident that he’s prepared for everything Failkorion could ever hope to throw at him. Likewise, he is stated to use “all the Force-related powers at his disposal” in combat, with “nothing [being] left out of his offensive arsenal” (link). Within the context of a hypothetical forum versus fight, where there is no plot necessitating a certain outcome or a budget restricting what can be shown on-screen, and I have specified morals off for both characters, we should basically treat this as confirmation Vader will use every Force power he has to destroy Failkorion. He will:

  • Use drain life to make Failkorion weaker and himself stronger, while himself being resistant to such tactics being used against him.
  • Use Force death-blow to greatly injure Failkorion.
  • Use Sith sorcery attacks to wound Failkorion, while being able to defend against them himself.
  • Use teleportation to get out of a tight spot, navigate the battlefield, or quickly get behind Failkorion and stab him in the back; this is even likely considering that Vader uses “trickery, deceit” with “no honor in his tactics” and thinks nothing of “striking from behind” according to the quote I just posted.
  • Use Force storm to rip apart space-time on a scale that can “swallow armies” and annihilate “thousands of enemies” “in a single act of malice,” since he is more powerful than the Revenge of the Sith iteration of Darth Sidious who was able to use Storms similarly (link).
  • Use Force illusions to confuse and distract Failkorion, and dominate Failkorion's Force Illusions should he try to utilize the same tactic on him.
  • Use doppelgänger to create a copy of himself, half as powerful as he is, that is fully capable of wounding Failkorion, enabling him to attack from two different angles.
  • Use Invisibility to confuse Failkorion, enabling a possible sneak attack.
  • Use reanimate dead to revive any corpses nearby to serve as his minions (if there are any), distracting Failkorion.

Among other things. How is Failkorion more versatile than Darth Vader again?

more hype/better implied position within the EU.

I find that hard to believe, since Vader has been declared a threat to the Emperor as of Return of the Jedi many times. He's also stated to be more powerful than Anakin Skywalker and his pre-suit self were in Revenge of the Sith, which would place him above Yoda and Darth Sidious from that time period as well. So Vader falls directly in between the Emperor's Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi iterations, a position he has been awarded repeatedly throughout the mythos. Given that the Emperor is the most powerful Sith Lord up to his time even as of Revenge of the Sith, and possesses feats and scaling far in excess of Failkorion's own, it becomes quite hard to justify the position that Failkorion has "more hype" and a "better position within the EU" than Darth Vader. Let me now go through Vader's accolades in detail to make this point clear

Since even within the suit he possesses Force potential on the level of the Emperor, Darth Vader becoming more powerful than he had been as Anakin Skywalker in Revenge of the Sith should not come as a surprise. It has been stated many times; firstly, we have confirmation that Vader as of A New Hope is more powerful than he was on Mustafar (link). This would also make him more powerful than Jedi Anakin, considering the dark side is fueled by anger and hate which grants the user more power in the Force. And yes, even on Mustafar, Vader was consumed by anger and hate (link), which did bestow him “newfound power” over his Jedi self (link) - the quote I cited earlier also states Vader called “on the dark side to harness more power,” so this idea is regurgitated among multiple sources. The counter I have often seen to this is that he was “between worlds,” but these are simply the musings of the Emperor (link), who would have been occupied by his fight with Yoda, most likely preventing him from sensing the love for Obi-Wan and Padme fade from Vader’s mind and “mutate into hatred,” further solidifying the idea he wasn’t hindered by his attachments (link). And even if he was, that in no way debunks the notion that he was stronger than baseline Anakin at that point, since the amount he was hindered by is not stated, and at his most powerful during Operation: Knightfall, Darth Vader was beyond Anakin anyway, so being less powerful than Knightfall Vader doesn’t preclude Mustafar Vader from being stronger than Jedi Anakin. And no, using his loss to Obi-Wan as a way to lowball him is not a sound argument. Being unknown does not make you weak; just that: unknown. Obi-Wan, after letting go of his earthly tethers, is more powerful than standard Obi-Wan (I won’t go into detail here, as LordOfTheLight has already done an excellent breakdown of the fight and explained Obi-Wan’s amp elsewhere, so I’ll just link you to his blog (link)), but by how much is not known. And let me reiterate that, just to be clear: Obi-Wan gained a boost; Vader did not get weaker. And since Obi-Wan’s power level there is not known, we scale the unknown quantity (Obi-Wan) to the known quantity (Vader), not the other way around. This is logic 101, and no amount of incredulity or biased squirming can uproot the laws that have been in place for thousands of years since ancient Greece, established by some of the greatest thinkers of the human race. If you feel uncomfortable with the notion of Obi-Wan Kenobi contending with Darth Vader, don’t worry, I have a solution: it’s time you stop underrating Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Darth Vader as of A New Hope is more powerful than he was on Mustafar and there he was already more powerful than he was as Anakin Skywalker. And this idea isn’t just supported by one quote. Obi-Wan himself agrees with me during his confrontation with Vader on the Death Star nearly two decades later: first, when he senses Anakin’s power within Vader (link) - again, to make this clear, he did not sense Anakin; he sensed Anakin’s power; there is a slight but fundamental distinction - and based on this, he concludes that Vader’s power has “matured” since being Anakin Skywalker (link). More, it is stated that Vader gave himself to the dark side, allowing it to consume him so that he could be “reborn in a more powerful image” and that “from the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger” to which Vader himself mused that "the fires of Mustafar purified me, and in the Force, I burn brightly" (link). So there we have a factual basis for Vader being at least on Anakin’s level as of A New Hope, but likely higher. Noting how Anakin was already the most powerful Jedi during his time (link), which would include Yoda and Mace Windu (yes, both of the aforementioned characters have accolades saying the same, but in terms of feats, Anakin trashed Dooku harder than either of them could (link), so in the presence of such conflicting notions, we should focus on feats, and Anakin comes out on top there; even if you don't accept this, the three are obviously close regardless). For more proof of this notion we have a statement declaring Vader was at the height of his powers during The Empire Strikes Back (link). Note how it does not specify suit Vader, so Knightfall is fair game, since he was Darth Vader even then, which would further solidify his superiority to Failkorion given that Knightfall Vader was once again stated to be more powerful than either Yoda or Darth Sidious (link; yes, again we have the issue of conflicting accolades, but Knightfall Vader is even stronger than Anakin whose feat against Count Dooku outshines Yoda's, but even if you don't buy that line of thinking, the three are still very close nonetheless). Similarly, Vader musing that his power is greater than ever in Return of the Jedi (link) does not specify him in the suit. A common rebuttal to this would be the quote in which Vader on Mustafar still thinks of himself as Anakin (link), but this is outdated evidence. Vader readjusted his view of himself after being imprisoned in the suit, including his Knightfall iteration as a part of his Darth Vader persona (link), specifying that the cut-off point from Anakin to Vader was on Coruscant, and in case you still want to stretch this to its limits by arguing that it doesn’t clarify when on Coruscant, that it could’ve been after Operation: Knightfall, you’ll still get the short end of the stick since Vader continued to grow more and more into the dark side and the ways of the Sith even after departing Coruscant, embracing the dark side completely and utterly on Mustafar after slaughtering the Separatist Council there (link). And this was before any of that business with Padme on the landing platform, so you can forget about any hindrance arguments. Darth Vader in the suit is his powerful iteration, plain and simple. It’s corroborated by several objective, third person quotes, and statements from Obi-Wan and Vader himself who both have perfectly valid authority to make judgements on the Force powers of those they have felt.

Darth Vader also has several accolades declaring him the second most powerful being in the galaxy after the Emperor (link). It can be questioned whether these refer to his political and military power or his Force power, but in the context of the first one, Grand Moff Tarkin had more authority than Vader at the time, so that automatically invalidates the political interpretation, meaning it can only refer to his Force power; and in the second one, there are many people much more devoted to the Emperor than Vader, who secretly harbored thoughts of killing his Master and taking over the Empire for himself, so I'd imagine the "mastery of the dark side" part is far more relevant to his status as the second most powerful being in the galaxy after the Emperor. Given this, we can conclude Vader to be more powerful than Yoda, who was a resident of the galaxy during Vader's career, so he too falls under the jurisdiction of those quotes. This is splendid news for Vader, since Yoda is stated to have grown more powerful after the events of Revenge of the Sith (link), where he was already the most powerful Jedi and light side Force user ever and a match for the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and Starkiller perceived Yoda's power to be "inconceivable" after understanding how he casually endured the pull of the Cave of Evil (link). Vader would thus benefit from all of these accolades, feats, and scaling of Yoda's.

And lastly, there is the fact that the Emperor considered Darth Vader a threat as of Return of the Jedi (link). This is actualized when Vader walked through the "full force" of his Master's Force lightning and threw him to do his death, a feat which the Emperor later credited to Vader's own power in the Force (link). Obviously Vader wouldn't be able to stand up to his Master in a fair fight, but this feat shows he's not fodder that gets sent to oblivion with a thought. I would estimate anyone capable of posing even the slightest threat to this iteration of the Emperor well out of Failkorion's league, and Vader's vastly greater power compared to the Revenge of the Sith incarnation of Darth Sidious also gives him arguable canonical superiority to Failkorion, considering Sidious gets scaling above his vanilla The Old Republic version, who isn't that far off from Failk.

How does Failkorion have "more hype" and a "better implied position within the EU" than Darth Vader again?

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#22 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP Valk.

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#25 Posted by Grinningf0x (1466 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7874 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Oh dear lord, I didn't ask for an essay detailing why Vader is superior, thank you very much. I don't actively debate Star Wars anymore regardless(it's far to convoluted and inconsistent), but you've got to consider some things.

Valkorion's draining of an entire planet dwarfs literally every single feat you showed for Vader, so I don't know why you bothered.

Also, were you using feats from the video game that IIRC was literally stated to be exxaggerated by the very people who made it?

Now please, I don't want another essay response, keep it short will you?

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#27 Posted by Grinningf0x (1466 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, were you using feats from the video game that IIRC was literally stated to be exxaggerated by the very people who made it?

And SWTOR isn't? :/

No Caption Provided

Why would some feats be considered exaggerated yet others that are comparable or superior to it be considered as not?

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#29 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7874 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Huh, I didn't know about that quote.

Who was it that made that statement, just out of curiosity? Was he relevant to both TFU and SWTOR?

Also, he does say they're exaggerated in different ways, while the TFU guy said the showings/cutscenes themselves were exaggerated, no? I could be totally wrong on that last part though.

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#30 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Skimmed the surface of the argument. While I don't 100% agree with some things, looks pretty good.

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#31 Posted by AmethystGravity (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: That was an impressive and relatively concise argument for Vader's superiority. While there were some points I wasn't entirely in agreement, the holistic portrayal of Vader's power (in comparison with Sidious, in comparison with Starkiller, in comparison with other dark side adepts, in comparison with Anakin, and in comparison with other powerful beings in the galaxy) does seem better than what Valkorion could boast.

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#32 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, the argument convinced me.

The Vader > RotS Sidious nonsense did not have to be brought up though. And no, Mustafar Vader clearly cannot employ his powers as well. If he's really supposed to be "equal" to Palpatine as of RotS, then how the hell is he stalemated by someone who was not strong enough to take Sidious as was made blatantly clear in both movie and novel?

And even if Obi-Wan was boosted, Vader being hindered is obvious, and that's disregarding the plethora of quotes supporting this notion.

Aside from this issue, and some other minor nitpicks, the argument did convince me. Vader > Failkorion.

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#33 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Mostly good post despite a few attempts to mislead/conceal the truth on your part.

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#34 Posted by Zapan871 (2002 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Eh, the effort itself is certainly commendable, but people will probably have at bare minimum a hard time taking these arguments seriously enough to even reply, regardless of whether those arguments have credibility or not (I'm not judging yours either positevely or negatively, just pointing out a fact). That's the result when characters are wanked to such extreme levels. I mean, I myself have a hard time considering placing Vader that high, let alone a Tor fan, especially when Valk is "supposed" to be one of the absoute top dogs. Not that it in of itself makes the argument right or wrong, but still, when you mess so much with established (at least in fan terms) hierarchies it becomes hard to follow.

Regardless, I take it the Revan vs Vader debate on Kmc isn't going to get a reply from the guy in charge of Vader (or whoever replaced him)?

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#35 Posted by reikai (7451 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Some of the things people forget is that power levels between the PT/GE Era and SWTOR era aren't meant to align. How strong characters are in PT/GE has no impact on SWTOR. SWTOR is far enough in the past to be completely removed from the standards of later timelines when it comes to how strong Force Users are. Heck it's pretty fairly established that TOR-era users were a lot more powerful overall compared to later generations.

Another thing is that SWTOR has it's future equivalencies. Such as Malgus being the Vader of the era and is arguably as tough, too. With Revan still sitting comfortably above him. And then Valkorion sitting head and shoulders above Revan. Which they made abundantly clear. Killing Valkorion effectively required the same method used by Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt to defeat Abeloth.

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#36 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2581 posts) - - Show Bio

The "plethora" of quotes indicate the exact opposite of Vader being hindered, lol.

The only quote that indicates that he might have been hindered in a very loose sense is the one from Dark Lord, and that was promptly addressed by Az here.

Regardless Vader on Mustafar is still a 9, and better than the standard Jedi Anakin. Canonically. Even if he was hindered, this much is still a fact.

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#37 Edited by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: I addressed the death field part already. The feat might not even be legitimate and it's certainly not better than ragdolling Starkiller. The latter was able to pulverize a group of beings each as strong as the original Galen Marek, who himself could contend with the Emperor for a brief while in the first game. By feats, that iteration of Palpatine already leaves Failkorion's Ziost feat in the dust, so you can do the math for TFU II Vader.

Please post me a quote saying that TFU feats are exaggerated in a sense that they're literally falsifications of what actually happened. The only thing I've seen is the devs saying the feats are something no one has ever seen before. Also, TOR and literally anything more powerful than what we see in the movies has been labelled "exaggerated."

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#38 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2581 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure I completely agree with Vader being so far above ROTS Yoda/Sidious but at this point, we can agree that Vader should come on their tier at least, based on the simple scaling of ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>>>>ANH Vader>MF Vader>=Obi Wan. That alone should at least put him on the same level as Valkorion. Again, it is important for us to take authorial intent into question as well, and I very much doubt that Vader>>>>ROTS Sidious is implied anywhere other than a long chain of scalings which, might be logically correct but shouldn't be the only parameter here for judgment.

Regardless ROTJ Vader should have a loose parity with the likes of Mace, Anakin etc. and if we take the ROTJ quote, then he is above KF Vader. Based on the scaling above, he is loosely comparable to ROTS Sidious as well( since I doubt that Sidious is going to be so monumentally superior to MF Vader regardless of any hindrance). We know for a fact that he has potential on the same scale as Sidious and that means that he is going to be massively powerful after 23 years of growth as a legitimate Banite apprentice. Even if he is inferior to Valkorion in the force after all this his infinitely superior combat skills can grant him the win.

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#39 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Glad it convinced you.

I presented more than just the ANH Vader > Mustafar Vader scaling to support my thesis that suit Vader is more powerful than RotS Sidious, like him being above standard RotS Anakin, Knightfall Vader, and post-RotS Yoda. But regarding the Mustafar one, what quotes say he was hindered? I posted three saying he was more powerful there.

But besides that, any other misgivings?

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#41 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

And Az only mentioned Force power. I think it's important to mention Vader has a lightsaber. Valkorion might trip onto it.

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#42 Edited by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Well, a few people have already come out and said how the argument convinced them, so you were wrong about that one. Regardless, if you drill certain notions into people's heads for a long enough time, it will eventually become accepted.

The guy repping Vader got lazy and doesn't wanna respond. I've asked to continue on his behalf but he doesn't let me, for some reason.

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#43 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

@hittheassasin: I addressed the death field part already. The feat might not even be legitimate and it's certainly not better than ragdolling Starkiller. The latter was able to pulverize a group of beings each as strong as the original Galen Marek, who himself could contend with the Emperor for a brief while in the first game. By feats, that iteration of Palpatine already leaves Failkorion's Ziost feat in the dust, so you can do the math for TFU II Vader.

Please post me a quote saying that TFU feats are exaggerated in a sense that they're literally falsifications of what actually happened. The only thing I've seen is the devs saying the feats are something no one has ever seen before. Also, TOR and literally anything more powerful than what we see in the movies has been labelled "exaggerated."

The quote states that the clones possess his fighting skills and abilities, not his power. They are unlikely to possess Marek's level of power given Starkiller was so exhausted he struggled to lift a ship not long before blowing the aberrant clones apart with a repulse.

Even if your interpretation were correct, TFUII Vader would not receive scaling from such given the Starkiller he faced was running on empty.

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#44 Posted by reikai (7451 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Except Vader is specifically said to have far less potential after Mustafar, not solely because of his injuries, but also his mental state. Sid also never cared for the Rule of Two since he kept full-fledged apprentices around while Plagueis was still alive, as well as a host of Dark Acolytes to help him with his rituals. And that Sid never taught Vader anything more than he needed to be effective in hunting down the Jedi since he had no desire for Vader to surpass or replace him. So Vader self-studying for 23yrs really doesn't have much of an impact.

As far as combat skill, Valkorion has all the combined skill of all those whom he has possessed. Which includes the man known as Valkorion himself. As well as all the Jedi and Sith he overshadowed and controlled on Ziost. The primary reason why he doesn't use a lightsaber is because he has no need for one. He's so powerful he regards them as mere toys used by infants. Darth Marr is right up there on high skill level and very powerful. And he was killed in one shot by Valkorion. And Marr isn't a cyborg like Vader with a vulnerability to lightning.

Simply put, all the skill in the world makes no difference if your opponent is a wrecking ball that can turn you into paste in one move.

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#45 Edited by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: I tend to disregard authorial intent myself, but even if we accept it, then what exactly there shows that RotS Sidious > Vader? You haven't actually presented any piece of evidence to support your claim, only dismiss multiple perfectly valid scaling chains for seemingly no reason.

Also, if we do indeed accept authorial intent, then Novel Vitiate > Failkorion = DE Palpatine in power according to a few TOR writers, which is a notion I'm sure you're not comfortable with. You might say that's contradicted by tons of evidence in the lore, but then so is the idea that RotS Sidious > Vader, so which is it?

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#46 Posted by AmethystGravity (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: The Starkiller force lightning feat with the Nebulon B's cannon, in my opinion, isn't necessarily continental. I know the original Galen had a crazy OP force lightning feat with a planet-wide artificial network, IIRC. Still, I think some of the premises (the Star Destroyer's shield could have been weakened by the Rebel Blockade Runners before the final shot; Star Destroyer's don't necessarily tank anything close to the firepower dished out for a base delta zero; Starkiller kickstarted and amped the cannon, but some of the power came from the ship, and it also seems implausible that he could charge it too far beyond normal parameters without massive mechanical failure). Also, I think the gigaton value for turbolasers is potentially inaccurate in that, from what I understand, "tons" for a weapon in real life is measured with equivalent tons of TNT, which Star Wars doesn't have, and in no source that I can recall (Malak's assault on Taris, Revan's assault on the Rakatan temple, Thrawn's trick with a cloaked orbital bombardment, and Caedus firing turbolasers at Kashykk) has even a minute-long barrage of turbolasers caused continental-busting destruction (though continent-wide destruction does happen). Nonetheless, Starkiller's own feats and scaling with the original make this a minor point.

Vader being the second strongest in the galaxy in terms of force power is hardly implausible, given the other feats you used, but it could potentially refer to both his force power (hence why he's above Tarkin) and his military power (which Yoda, Gethzerion, and others have basically none of). Also, Yoda's ability to tolerate the dark side nexus, which Starkiller is amazed by, could be attributed to both Yoda's power in the light side and his mental fortitude (especially since the clone has some problems with regards to mental stability).

Either way, I think these are relatively minor points that don't really detract from Vader's standing.

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#47 Posted by Azronger (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly: The quote literally reads "Galen Marek's clones possess their genetic host's fighting skills, including his incredible abilities with the Force." No clue how you can interpret that as not referring to his power.

Anyway, I've already told you I'm not debating this with you anymore.

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#48 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Because somebody that struggled to lift a ship less then an hour before blew apart dozens of them with a repulse...

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#49 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger:

But regarding the Mustafar one, what quotes say he was hindered?

We have the between worlds one, and we also have this one stating that Anakin's defeat was a result of his inflated ego and arrogance:

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat. A mistimed leap over Obi-Wan allowed him to swiftly cut Anakin, leaving him disabled on the shore of a lava river.

Lightsabers: A Guide To Weapons of the Force

Anakin was also stated to be anguished that he had to kill Obi-Wan:

Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other.

Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Obi-Wan obviously lets go of his attachments, and then focuses on his objective, but Anakin really doesn't get over it.

Besides, Anakin has gone through a lot. He's just become the very thing he swore to destroy, walked into his home and slaughtered his brethren- innocent children included- and at least in his mind betrayed by his former master and the love of his life, who he had just nearly choked to death. Besides, he barely slept and ate for days. That in itself is enough to make someone as... emotionally unstable as Anakin become hampered.

I posted three saying he was more powerful there.

He could have been more powerful but I very much doubt he could have employed his powers as effectively. Obi-Wan was/is underrated, but it's made blatantly clear he's not strong enough to even face Sidious, and Anakin can somewhat hang with Sidious- Kenobi should not be stalemating him in a telekinetic contest.

But besides that, any other misgivings?

Not really, no. I'm still a bit skeptical on the clones being as powerful as Galen, since Vader wanted to clone the apprentice and the deranged ones were seen as failures in every sense of the word. If they are as powerful as Galen though then it's excellent for both Vader and 'Killer.

Vader is now superior to Failkorion. To think this would have happened when only some time ago Failkorion vs RotJ/DE Sidious was still being debated.

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#50 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

By the way, let's make things happen.

Member @s_w_legend

Oh nose! Emperor Failkorion is being bullied! Come defend his Zakuulian Royalty against the mean Sheevites!