Darth Vader VS Darth Sidious (Sabers Only)

@i_like_swords: Again, I'm not saying Vader would win in an all-out battle, because the evidence says he won't. But as far as Disney is concerned, by the time of the OT, he is superior in the dueling aspect.

Ben is clearly equal to Sidious

@richard96: Everything I reference is canon and it's from Obi-wan's first person short story when he faces off with Vader. He continually muses about how much stronger Vader has become and how he is unable to keep pace. He was already at his limit just before Luke arrives.

Per Filoni, we know Kenobi is stronger after he went into exile, but whether he reached a level comparable to Palps in dueling is questionable. Even so, he isn't a match for Vader.

Addressed just like Mace Windu, yes we know people like Sidious. :) He is the second most popular dark sider after all.

I am on the side of not exaggerating his power. He beats Vader in a pure saber duel as well, but he isn't stomping.

@erkan12:

He did pretty much annihilate the brothers though. An enraged Maul was ragdolled by a Sidious stated to be toying, and he had them dead to rights with telekinesis at the onset of the fight.

@dark-sith123: When Maul wasn't expecting a TK attack if you are talking about the opening, the guy was kneeling for him. He had to kick Savage later during the duel, so he can use a Force push on Maul. If he is going to use TK, there was no reason to kick Savage and use on Maul there, he could replicate what he did to off guard Maul and Savage. But he didn't.

Seriously, one side is underestimating Sidious, and the other side is highballing him. We need a mid-point.

@erkan12:

When Maul wasn't expecting a TK attack

Why wouldn't he be expecting an attack? It's absolutely baseless.

the guy was kneeling for him.

He was trying to pretend he was still loyal to Sidious so that Sidious would leave him alone. If he's arrogant enough to think that Sidious could be fooled so easily then I don't know what to say.

He had to kick Savage later during the duel, so he can use a Force push on Maul.

He didn't have to. However, he was playing around with them and didn't decide to go full out with his powers until the end.

If he is going to use TK, there was no reason to kick Savage and use on Maul there, he could replicate what he did to off guard Maul and Savage. But he didn't.

He didn't, now that does not mean he cannot do it.

Seriously, one side is underestimating Sidious,

In an absolutely disgusting manner too.

and the other side is highballing him.

How so? By claiming he can stomp Maul and Savage which is perfectly logical and goes in line with canon?

We need a mid-point.

We don't have a very sturdy mid-point but I don't think there's been a lot of Sidious highballing, just lowballing by Jerrah and co.

@dark-sith123: We're discussing swordsmanship here, and I can't see how Kenobi's victory over Maul is any less impressive than Sidious' from a pure duelling standpoint. Sidious is probably more skilled than Rebels/OT Kenobi anyway, but what's the evidence for claiming one can't contend with the other in a pure lightsaber duel?

@rgr: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-maul-vs-old-ben-kenobi-1881378/

Because Kenobi vs Maul was riddled with circumstances. It was a special duel that only applied to Kenobi vs Maul due to them having multiple fights, and because Kenobi baited Maul into ending the fight quickly.

Besides, Maul is out of his prime come Rebels. His prime is Clone Wars.

@dark-sith123: True. However, Filoni stated that Maul was in no way Kenobi's equal. Also, the fight on Mandalore could as well be riddled with circumstances, given that Sidious had trained Maul and knew his fighting style inside and out.

@rgr:

No, Maul isn't equal to Kenobi, but in a normal fight Kenobi can't stomp him.

And being a master to an apprentice in a fight doesn't automatically give you an advantage. Mandalore was a fair fight. Sidious is just that much better than Maul and Savage even combined.

It's simple. Sidious doesn't need to trick Maul by using fake lightsaber stances, he doesn't need to wait for Maul to attack on himself, and he doesn't need to be extremely amped to beat Maul. Not even mention, by Kenobi's own admission, (''One doesn't survive as long as I have by being foolish. Or unprepared. Maul is an old adversary, and a persistent one at that.'') Sidious doesn't need to be prepared for years to fight him.

There is a gigantic difference between how Ben Kenobi defeated Maul, and how he defeated someone else, lets say Grievous for example.

Are you telling me Maul is ready for an attack here?

Seriously?

I am not saying Maul is actually believed to fool Sidious. I am saying that Maul is in no position to defend himself in here. He probably thought he can get away from this without fighting with Sidious for the time being, but I don't think he believes he can fool Sidious too.

TPM Kenobi caught Maul by surprise in a tougher position than this.

So, what's his reason to use acrobatic movements to kick Savage in there, to impress Maul and Savage with his lightsaber skills? Sidious isn't even interested in lightsaber fighting, he isn't enjoying it. He is like Plagueis. He uses it only when its necessary.

Yes, that's my point. The shows tell you something there, and you need to use it. People actually worked to make that fighting scene, it's not like Sidious was doing those movements for nothing, and it's not like the TV show was wasting that precious minutes for nothing. That's how Sidious was beating the Brothers.

Yes. Exactly like that.

It wasn't a one-shot fight for Sidious. As if he was beating the B-Team. Even Filoni directly said that ; ''He (Savage) puts up a better fight than Jedi Council did.'' Unless you believe Filoni foolishly compared Saesee Tiin and Savage Opress despite knowing Sidious was holding back against Savage and not against Saesee. Which would be a dumb statement.

whoever voted for Vader is definitely smoking some strong stuff

@erkan12:

Are you telling me Maul is ready for an attack here?

Seriously?

I am not saying Maul is actually believed to fool Sidious. I am saying that Maul is in no position to defend himself in here. He probably thought he can get away from this without fighting with Sidious for the time being,

He can still raise a Force barrier. Sidious just ripped through it because he is that powerful. That's made evident once again at the end of the fight when Sidious ragdolls him.

So, what's his reason to use acrobatic movements to kick Savage in there, to impress Maul and Savage with his lightsaber skills? Sidious isn't even interested in lightsaber fighting, he isn't enjoying it. He is like Plagueis. He uses it only when its necessary.

Because he's toying with them. He wants to duel them because he wants to humiliate him- the only reason why he actually fights with the blade. He's having fun and so wants to murk them in a melee engagement. If he really wanted though it's established at the beginning of the fight he could have one-shotted them with the Force and have been done with it right there.

Yes, that's my point. The shows tell you something there, and you need to use it. People actually used efforts to make that fighting scene, it's not like Sidious was doing those movements for nothing, and it's not like the TV show was wasting that precious minutes for nothing. That's how Sidious was beating the Brothers.

The only thing it tells you is that a playful Sidious can still make a mockery of the brothers. Sidious could have used TK but he was in a playful mood. Just because he didn't stomp them with the Force mid fight doesn't mean he can't.

But what happened when he actually decided to use the Force? Ouch.

And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

Dave Filoni

Sidious kept them pinned against a wall with TK, with the brothers being completely unable to break out of his guard, and then utterly curbstomps Maul in the Force when he actually feels like it.

Yes. Exactly like that.

How is acknowledging Sidious can stomp two people he has stomped highballing?

It wasn't a one-shot fight for Sidious.

Because he was playing around with him. It's made clear it could have been had Sidious gone full out at the onset of the fight.

Even Filoni directly said that ; ''He (Savage) puts up a better fight than Jedi Council did.''

The Jedi Council blocked three strikes. Savage blocked five from a playful Sidious. Great difference.

@erkan12 said:

Fair point. I'd say that Kenobi didn't need to trick him either, as per Filoni, "any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he's as good as Obi-Wan and I don't think that's true". But then it's debatable just how convincingly would Obi-Wan win.

Still, I don’t think there’s enough evidence, if any, to dismiss Obi-Wan as incapable of holding his own against Sidious in a pure saber duel, as he did against Vader. But it's fine if you disagree :)

@rgr:

Still, I don’t think there’s enough evidence, if any, to dismiss Obi-Wan as incapable of holding his own against Sidious in a pure saber duel,

A better question would be: what has Obi-Wan done to suggest he can hold his own against Sidious in a duel?

@dark-sith123 said:

I honestly believe that's not the better question, as an official source has ranked Vader's lightsaber prowess as superior to that of Sidious, and the burden of proof is on anyone who tries to dismiss it.

Anyway, I'd say being clearly better than Maul, who held back Sidious for a short period of time, is enough to at least consider the possibility that Obi-Wan can somewhat hold his own.

@rgr:

as an official source has ranked Vader's lightsaber prowess as superior to that of Sidious, and the burden of proof is on anyone who tries to dismiss it.

That "official source" has also placed Maul above Tyranus and Ventress above Opress despite Opress having beaten Ventress. When a source is contradicted by many other forms of canon it kinda loses its weight, you know.

Anyway, I'd say being clearly better than Maul, who held back Sidious for a short period of time,

There are a few holes with this claim.

• Rebels Maul is inferior to Clone Wars (Prime) Maul
• Sidious was canonically toying with Maul, who in normal circumstances is his astronomical inferior:

And there are some other notable beats there at the end, besides, obviously, the death of Savage. There’s the fact that Maul begged for his life. I'm curious, should we take that at face value or was it a ruse?

Yeah, I think that’s pretty literal at that point. I think that what you understand about Maul is that he is still not nearly as powerful as Sidious. Perhaps in his time away and his own ambition, like a villain, he got carried away with himself. He’s not offering proper respect to his master, Sidious, and he’s going to pay the price for that.

Interview between IGN and Dave Filoni

Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

Dave Filoni

So no, respective performances vs Maul don't prove Kenobi could hold his own against Sidious- Kenobi was only decently superior to Maul, maybe considerably, but Sidious was astronomically ahead of a more powerful Maul.

Still anakin

@b_tank:

Still anakin

Anakin > Vader but even he can't beat Sidious.

Still? It never was him.

@dawn_of_ages

Are you aware of the abomination you have created? Look at how the Vader brigade is stepping on the supremacy of Sheev. Witness the phenomena.

And that burden will weigh on them and cause their arguments to devolve into a series of mental gymnastics and indirect correlations between other force users. Deluded bias and blind nostalgia for Legends isn't something that'll go away over night. Regardless, their opinions will never override officially published, written evidence...

Anakin > Vader

...Case and point. This has been thoroughly debunked, yet we have a known fanboy continually drumming up nonsense for the sake of controversy.

That "official source" has also placed Maul above Tyranus and Ventress above Opress despite Opress having beaten Ventress. When a source is contradicted by many other forms of canon it kinda loses its weight, you know.

And when Leland Chee, the guy who worked alongside George Lucas for years, says the information in that official source is canon, it keeps all of its credibility and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/832028049474351104

Vader's body made him weaker (meaning, as long as Vader remained in this body he'd be weaker than Anakin). An argument can only be made for Vader in regards to the Force.

Good day, gentlemen.

As far as duelists go:

1. Mace Windu

2. Yoda

3. Grandmaster Luke

4. Sidious

...

12. Vader

Or something like this. In other words, not even close.

@dark-sith123: Already debunked that horrendously wrong interpretation, and proved it only referenced potential; as LotS CONFIRMS Vader > Anakin.

Try again, fanboy.

@comicgirl21: It's almost as if you don't even bother to read the topic details and just blindly post whatever comes to mind.

32% for Vader... I’ll see myself out.

If all that the Vader brigade has is insults, then it's a pretty indicative sign of decisive loss.

Good day.

Given that all your ignorant points have been debunked and you're headed out the door, your concession to the evidence (which you're unable to refute) is noted.

@dawn_of_ages: IT WAS I out if pure spite because you didn’t mention me in the callout jk lollll

Ventress was only able to use one lightsaber, while we know she’s more proficient with two blades. She could have improved since the death of Savage, too.

@dark-sith123 said:

For all we know, Rebels could be Maul's prime.

OT i think vader maybe a better duelist so he gets my vote. Once you’re at high eight like Maul , Dooku and Vader there isn’t really any higher to go in technical skill so then it comes down to Force power in general and Force augmentation specifically. Simply put you just have to be stronger in the Force ( fat chance as there are literally like 3 people objectively stronger) to overcome them as the LITERALLY everyone else is weaker then these Three.

If offcial source says Vader is better then it must be true..

With a horrendous name like 'dark-sith123' you'd expect him to be terribly illogical, but I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised.

@grinningf0x: I mean Vader really isn't as good as Dooku (or Maul for that matter) as a duelist anyway... slaughtering Padawans, low-level Knights and Rebel soldiers is hardly noteworthy. Whereas Dooku stomping Bulq, Vos, Ventress, Kenobi and stalemating/contending with a usually rage-amped Anakin are far beyond Vader's duelling achievements.

Even Maul's showings against Kenobi are more impressive.

All Vader has going for him are accolades which are not in line with his actual performances. Whilst both Maul and Dooku have comparable quotes to go along with some spectacular duelling feats.

@hilarityensues: i think Vader Maul and Tyranus all have edges over each other that even them out but i wouldn’t put Vader at bottom as he is more powerful than either. Dueling wise Vader’s hybrid form is fearsome and dooku won’t be able to meet his strength or overcome his durability. Maul won’t struggle as much strength wise but Vader is an absolute tank and i can see him just outlasting Maul

@hilarityensues: Debunk dark sith or leave him alone . He has some opinions i disagree with but he is all around pretty solid

Vader gets owned.

@grinningf0x: I wasn't being sarcastic you half-wit.

I suggest you all watch closely how that poll progresses. Funny stuff.

@grinningf0x: I wouldn't say the edges to each of them 'even out' but if Vader is more powerful than Dooku, it's by an extremely slim margin. All we have 'from the new 'canon' that I'm aware of, placing Vader ahead of the Count comes from the author of the 'Son of Dathomir' comics, Jeremy Barlow.

"His [Maul] power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."

But I'm not sure how much trust you should put into the opinion of a man who created a rather rubbish comic series in which certain characters' power levels appear to be very different from the Clone Wars animated program (*cough* Grievous) which the entire thing is following on from.

Vader's 'hybrid' form is fearsome...? So is Maul's. Dooku's form is pretty terrifying too. All Vader has done is combine some Soresu, Djem So and Makashi because he can't move anywhere near as well Anakin could. That hardly makes him any more 'fearsome.' Vader's durability means jack when the Count can put one quick stab into his control panel and the fight is over. But hell, all Dooku really needs to do is hire a non-force sensitive, arm him with a metal pole and Vader is toast :)

By far the most embarrassing thing I've seen in any Star Wars material, 'revived Maul' story arcs included. Also Dooku is hardly weaker than Maul, or Vader really.

Sane people are having arguments over whether Vader is better than Maul and Dooku.

Insane people are voting 50% in favor of Vader being able to take Palpatine in a lightsaber duel.

Any willingness I had to live previously, is gone.

I guess Vader's now the best duelist in star wars.

Jesus...Vader's leading in the polls. How about you fanboys actually give a reason as to why he's going to win? Because he sure as hell isn't beating Sidious in a comparison of feats.

As a devoted follower of Sheev I am sympathetic to the Sith belief that we grow stronger through the perpetuation of conflict and chaos.

Look at how the Vader brigade is stepping on the supremacy of Sheev. Witness the phenomena.

Not a single one of them bar two have even argued for Vader and much like their idol, they have turned on His Imperial Majesty.

@dawn_of_ages

How about you fanboys actually give a reason as to why he's going to win?

Don't need a reason - the one page in that one book says it all.

@anonymousjedi: I hope this is a joke.

This thread has turned me from anti-Sheevite into a Sheev fan.

The best duelist in Star Wars gets smashed by Galen Marek and an assassin with a pole? Wew

@hilarityensues: Hey - it's what the book says, not me :)

@hilarityensues said:

That's Legends, and Vader was testing him, IIRC.

@rgr said:

Some in-universe accolades may hint at Vader being more of a threat than Sidious, such as both Snoke and Kylo hoping that the latter becomes as strong as Vader (not Sidious), or this one from the recent The Last Jedi comic, that states Vader to be the greatest enemy of the Jedi:

Legends Vader was also stated as history's "greatest Jedi-killer" yet no one ever doubted Sidious' supremacy over him.

Based on?

?

Can't believe people are still using that argument against Maul.