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Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) 10 months, 4 days ago

Poll: Darth Vader VS Darth Sidious (Sabers Only) (155 votes)

Papa Sheev 63%
Darth Vader 35%

Due to recent debates regarding Vader's placement as a duelist in canon and how he's now "supposedly" above Sidious based on this ranking from Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know, I'm curious as to how many people take it face value and how much stock people put into said ranking.

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Rules

  • Canon Only
  • No prep or foreknowledge
  • Standard equipment
  • Fight takes place on neutral ground
  • No Force Abilities (TK, lightning etc.) bar Force Augmentation

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#3 Edited by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious still creams him. Unless you want to sustain that ANH kenobi is a sidious level duelist, given he was evenly matched with Vader...

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#4 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

ANH kenobi is a sidious level duelist

kek

No one thinks that....I hope.

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#5 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Nah. I'm waiting for those claiming it's legit to make a case for Vader if they choose to.

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#7 Posted by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless you want to sustain that ANH kenobi is a sidious level duelist, given he was evenly matched with Vader...

Per Time of Death, Kenobi was steadily giving ground and knew he couldn't keep up. They were never on equal footing in ANH. Ben was fighting a losing battle.

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#8 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:

If you take that list as a base, then Maul > Dooku, which I don't think Maul is more skilled than him, he can beat him due to style and physical advantages but not due to skill.

Who are you and what have you done with Erkan

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#11 Posted by SoImMe (299 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious. Better feats, such as clowning Maul and Savage at once like it was a walk in the park.

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#13 Posted by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@soimme said:

Sidious. Better feats, such as clowning Maul and Savage at once like it was a walk in the park.

People usually don't get kicked in the park.

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#15 Edited by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that's more like a popularity list, more than power.

This has been repeated ad infinitum, but remains nothing more than conjecture. If it were based solely on fame, there would have been no need to include descriptions of each Sith's dueling style.

The ranking also aligns with Palpatine's remark on how he valued Maul's apprenticeship and potential more than Dooku, as well as Maul's own admission to being Vader's inferior.

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#16 Posted by SoImMe (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: A kick that did nothing to slow ol' Paps Sheev down, mind you.

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#18 Posted by i_like_swords (26192 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure in Lords of the Sith Sidious performs evenly or better than Vader against their common opponents, and Vader muses that Sidious hadn't shown his true power. That should safely contradict the sourcebook which may not even be ranking them in a strict order.

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#19 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

Who the hell voted for Vader? Show yourself heretic!

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#20 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean in regards to 'skill' I guess I'd give it to Vader (Sidious' technique looks utterly moronic in all his fights), but actual combat effectiveness goes to Sheev.

He's blindingly quick and unbelievably strong, Vader stands no chance.

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#21 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio
@erkan12 said:

@jerrah13: It alligns with popularity however.

  1. Vader is the most popular Dark Sider in the saga, no one can deny that. More than even Sidious.
  2. Than it's obviously Sidious. The Emperor.
  3. Then Maul.
  4. Then Dooku
  5. And Ventress.

Yeah it kinda does, tbh.

Off topic, and this may just be me, but I feel like Dooku often gets the short end of the stick compared to the others. Like in mainstream media, t-shirts and the like always feature Vader, Maul, Sidious, hell, even Kylo, while Dooku is mostly left out.

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#22 Posted by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Because Dooku doesn't look as iconic.

Vader has badass armor, Maul has his red skin + tattoos & horns, Sidious looks horrifying and Kylo has his mask and unique lightsaber.

And Dooku has... facial hair?

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#23 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: I don't think that captures normie movie-goers attentions' more than devil-like creatures and black cyborgs.

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#25 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoever voted for Vader makes me question the meaning of life.

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#27 Edited by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

Pretty sure in Lords of the Sith Sidious performs evenly or better than Vader against their common opponents, and Vader muses that Sidious hadn't shown his true power. That should safely contradict the sourcebook which may not even be ranking them in a strict order.

Palpatine does have better showings against the lyleks, but when next we see Vader confront an army of a thousand by himself in Vader Down, he solos them with total ease. In the Tarkin novel, Palpatine muses that he must remain vigilant of Vader to keep him in check, and there's the fact Palps felt the need to threaten Vader the moment he came off the operating table, as a means to reestablish his dominance.

Unlike Legends, Disney has seemingly made the 20% gap between their power meaningless; to the point Leland Chee claimed it was "hard to translate numbers like that into fiction". They are now more or less meant to stand as peers, evident by Vader's growing collection of feats to compensate for Palpy's hype and powerscaling. Whether the fanboys want to accept it or not, Darth Mickey has made Vader into a legitimate threat for his master.

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#28 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

can sidious beat esb luke?

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#29 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

A fraction of Sidious' lightning killed Vader. Peers much, huh?

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#30 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13: Palpatine has essentially mind-controlled armies before... without showing much apparent strain.

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#31 Edited by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

Luke rivaled Vader, who in turn is better than Yoda who was visibly better than RotS Sidious who only weakened up to RotJ. So I'd say Luke would come out standing.

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#32 Posted by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

A fraction of Sidious' lightning killed Vader. Peers much, huh?

If by fraction, you mean a lethal dose, that Palps made even stronger when Vader grabbed him, sure. But keep downplaying. It's the only thing you're good at.

@jerrah13: Palpatine has essentially mind-controlled armies before... without showing much apparent strain.

Source? Remember, we're talking canon-only.

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#33 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13:

Most of Sidious' lightning wasn't even hitting Vader, lol.

But keep overhyping Vader. You have a knack for it.

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#35 Edited by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Most of Sidious' lightning wasn't even hitting Vader, lol.

Yes, because it takes EVERY. SINGLE. BOLT. to cause lethal damage when it comes to lightning. Keep reaching, fanboy.

@erkan12

Difference being, Vader engaged her in lightsaber combat. Palpatine overpowered her solely with the Force. No one can or should deny the latter has the advantage in force power. What's being discussed is dueling skill, and in canon Disney has given Vader the ability to compete.

For folks like dark-sith, it's a bitter pill to swallow.

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#37 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13 said:

@jerrah13: Palpatine has essentially mind-controlled armies before... without showing much apparent strain.

we're talking canon-only.

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#38 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13: Why is Palpatine overpowering her using the force seen as a slight against his duelling ability here? Are you saying he couldn't take Ahsoka in a lightsaber fight?

Sheev detests lightsaber combat, he's made as much very clear. And why would someone widely regarded as the most powerful Sith in history use anything other than his immense force power? It's just far easier and less hassle.

Force Power basically = duelling ability anyway. There's only so much skill can do when you're facing force speed titans like Sidious.

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#40 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Like Maul & Savage did? You mean getting pinned against a window in the first 10 seconds of the fight without a hope in hell of breaking free?

Doesn't sound like it was much of a challenge.

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#41 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@hilarityensues: Because Maul didn't challenge him at first and he knelt before him and Savage was also not doing anything but standing there?

The real challenge started after Sidious pinned him down.

I am siding with Sidious here, but if you are going to highball him like this... Then I might reconsider my stance on this subject.

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#42 Edited by hilarityensues (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: But that's the point. Sidious let Maul and Savage down... and he almost certainly could've thrown them back up that window again any time he wanted during the fight.

Please don't go down this road and derail the thread by explaining how Maul kicking Sidious in the chest one time proves that it was close. It wasn't. Maul performed surprisingly well in the later stage of the duel, that's it.

I'm not 'highballing' Palpatine I just know where Maul stands and it's certainly not among those who can challenge Sidious, even with a friend.

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#43 Posted by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@hilarityensues Why is Palpatine overpowering her using the force seen as a slight against his duelling ability here? Are you saying he couldn't take Ahsoka in a lightsaber fight?

I never said anything to that effect, nor was it implied his use of the Force was a means to compensate for lack of dueling prowess. I simply pointed out the difference when she confronted Vader, compared to the encounter with Palps.

Force Power basically = duelling ability anyway.

Snoke disproves that. As well as Yoda by the time of ANH (who is stated to have used the Force to extend his life far beyond what is naturally allowed). While in exile, Obi-Wan had to continually upkeep his physical training, as well as his meditation. Neglecting either aspect will decrease a force user's effectiveness in that area.

@erkan12 Vader couldn't actually challenge Sidious in a lightsaber combat without getting help since there is a clear difference between them in the Force.

Correct. When accounting for force ability, Vader would fair better than Maul did, but would still lose. However, in pure dueling (which is what the topic is about), Vader is canonically able to match him.

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#44 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13:

When did I ever say it wasn't lethal? You are completely missing the point. I said that it only takes some of Palpatine's Lightning to kill Vader which makes pretty clear they aren't close at all.

But do keep calling me a fanboy. Go on. Try to put Sidious' astronomical inferior close to him with no evidence at all supporting you. Go ahead. (Hint: it's not going to work).

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#45 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@hilarityensues: He wasn't even expecting Sidious's attack there. How is that even a fair scaling?

Maul was completely fine later and he was trying to break his hold. Sidious could hold him there and not doing anything if that's what you're arguing about.

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Challenging him, or kicking doesn't make it ''close'', however it shows something. Even if you doesn't want to admit, that's how it is.

Sidious himself said that Dooku + Ventress could challenge himself,

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By Sidious's own admission; they could challenge him, but they would also lose like Maul + Savage.

You're forgetting the real reason why Banite Sith Order / Rule of Two has been established, to prevent this kind of situations. Because weaker Sith Lords (in this case they are Maul + Savage, or Dooku + Ventress) are teaming up against stronger Sith Lords (in this case it's Sidious) and they were being successful. To say that they can't even challenge Sidious is denying the nature of the Rule of Two. They can challenge him, but loses. Someone like enraged TPM Kenobi or Qui-Gon can challenge Maul, but loses anyway. You're just exaggerating the meaning of challenging. I am not talking about holding any parity with Sidious, just a challenge, not getting stomped directly.

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#46 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/darth-sidious-vs-darth-maul-and-savage-opress-what/125235/

Nah, that's been addressed too.

Sidious stomped Maul when toying as per Sw.com and destroyed Savage in five swings when he was alone.

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#47 Edited by Jerrah13 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

I said that it only takes some of Palpatine's Lightning to kill Vader which makes pretty clear they aren't close at all.

Yet, Vader endured a continual blast the moment he was off the operating table. So your premise that it takes EVERY. SINGLE. BOLT. to kill someone is absurd and debased.

But do keep calling me a fanboy. Go on.

I'll address you as what you are.

Try to put Sidious' astronomical inferior close to him with no evidence at all supporting you.

Again, no one is claiming Vader is close to Palpatine in force ability, only that the quality of the 20% gap in power has been significantly reduced; made extremely apparent by Disney going as far as to retcon Vader's rebirth scene in Stover's novel and showing that they're still somewhere in the same ballpark.

Oh, but I have no evidence... Not like Disney hasn't published a bunch of material to raise Vader's status and debunk every preconceived notion about him being weaker post-Mustafar, a shell of his former self, etc. But go on, keep denying the proof that's already been written into lore, and substitute it for your irrelevant opinion. Go ahead. (Hint: it's not going to work).

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#48 Posted by dark-sith123 (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

Splendid

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#49 Posted by i_like_swords (26192 posts) - - Show Bio

@jerrah13: Sidious may have been wary of vader but the fact is Vader at no point had the means to even assassinate his master in an unfair fight. That's why he is always on the lookout for a powerful apprentice.

He's way more powerful relatively speaking in new canon, as he's above pretty much everyone barring Sidious, but whether that makes him a match for his master or not is dubious. I lean towards no.

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#50 Edited by RGR (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Hard to say for sure, but for now, most evidence seems to back Darth Vader:

1. As has been said, Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know ranks Vader above Sidious as a lightsaber wielder. The list is crearly in order, since it depicts numbers. It also seems to be based on combat prowess, since the descriptions refer to it instead of fame (also, there’s no Kylo Ren on the list, even though the book depicts him in the same page).

The sourcebook has been updated without the Story Group changing this ranking the second time it was published, and Leland Chee himself has said that, as far as the Holocron database is concerned, he categorizes info from the sourcebook as canon: https://twitter.com/Holocronkeeper/status/832028228885704704

2. We know Vader grew stronger after ROTS, and he had already soundly beaten Dooku:

"His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."

- Star Wars: Lords of the Sith

https://twitter.com/holocronkeeper/status/833437960934662145?lang=bg

3. Obi-Wan Kenobi’s victory over Maul is at least as impressive as Sidious’. Sure, there might have been some circumstances to their duel, but Dave Filoni has claimed “I felt that with Maul, any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he's as good as Obi-Wan and I don't think that's true”. Maybe Obi-Wan (who was inferior to Vader) is closer to Sidious dueling-wise than most people give him credit for.

4. Vader has been consistently impressive feat-wise in all Canon comic series he has appeared in, as some of you have already pointed out.

5. Some in-universe accolades may hint at Vader being more of a threat than Sidious, such as both Snoke and Kylo hoping that the latter becomes as strong as Vader (not Sidious), or this one from the recent The Last Jedi comic, that states Vader to be the greatest enemy of the Jedi:

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Again, I’m not saying Vader is definitely a better duelist (nor more powerful) than Sidious, I’m merely addressing the material we’ve got so far.

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