Darth Vader vs Darth Plagueis

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

Technically, AOTC Sidious should be above Plaggy, but I do need proof that AOTC Yoda = AOTC Sidious. Because AOTC Yoda is equal with Dooku and Dooku is depicted in a clear light of inferiority to Sidious throughout AOTC, TCW, to ROTS. So Sidious >>> Dooku = Yoda.

AOTC Yoda is not really equal to Dooku though, some sources consider them close, some others state Yoda was holding back ( junior novel) which seems to be what Shatterpoint was going for as well, as it states that Kar, who is around Yoda level, is far more powerful than Windu, and Windu and Dooku are consistently shown to be matched throughout CW

They are confirmed as equals. The reason Yoda was winning (sorta) was because Dooku just 1v1ed Kenobi and Anakin.

also fact that they are equals in ROTS shows that the same was the case before as well, given that Yoda was already nearly 900 years old, it's not like he trained any more in between AOTC and ROTS, especially not more than Palpatine.

Not true. In AOTC Yoda = Dooku, in TCW, Yoda >> Dooku on a heavy DS nexus (Vjun)

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"Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself." - The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #48.

-

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

This happened during the JEDI ORDER time for Dooku. Then Dooku got introduced to powers of his "wildest fantasies" and he became vastly more powerful. The fact that Mace didn't lose after clashing blades a few times doesn't change anything

Proof that it only refers to his "special moments" rather than his normal skill level?

That one is easy, in those special moments he is stated by other books as well to be around Yoda level, which is consistent with what Shatterpoint says as well, while at his normal level he is fodder to Dooku

Thats beside my argument. My point is, the argument is terribly inconsistent due to being the on the scale of Yoda and Anakin at the same time. Also, measuring on the scale of something is different from being equal. Both the Sun and Earth are measured in Miles, doesn't mean they are equal in size.

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@spider-simp: Which are those feats Hego has that you feel are better?

MUH!!! HE IS SUN LEVEL!

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JK

Atomizing a person, being absolutely godly even to near TPM sidious, outracing Rain, as well as scaling above the likes of Exar Kun who is in turn above Muur who is above Vader etc.

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Zapan871

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Vader was so strong that OT Sidious, who should have grown astronomically since TPM, was worried about his power, Plagueis is stuck below TPM Sidious. Still, you could possibly make a case for him based on midichlorian manipulation, which is a very OP technique, one that Vader doesn't seem to have in his arsenal.

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

Atomizing a person,

Done:

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being absolutely godly even to near TPM sidious,

So is Vader, he is above ROTS Sidious via being a threat to a much stronger version of Sidious in OT

outracing Rain,

Vader reacts to Light itself, after it is fired:

"Tell the droid to give me the bota, Pavan."

"The droid doesn't have it," said I-Five suddenly. Both hands came up in a lethal gesture, lasers firing. The beams sliced toward Vader . . . and stopped mere centimeters from his outstretched hand.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of The Force

as well as scaling above the likes of Exar Kun who is in turn above Muur who is above Vader etc.

Vader is above ROTS Palpatine who scales above all of those

IMPORTANT NOTE HERE! I DO THINK VADER > PLAGGY, THE ENTIRE REASON I AM DEBATING AGAINST YOU IS TO PROVE THE KAM SCALING IS INCONSISTENT. I'M JUST TRYING TO PROVIDE SOME FEATS HERE!

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

They are confirmed as equals. The reason Yoda was winning (sorta) was because Dooku just 1v1ed Kenobi and Anakin.

Not true. In AOTC Yoda = Dooku, in TCW, Yoda >> Dooku on a heavy DS nexus (Vjun)

By some sources, others disagree, just like Mace and Yoda being equals in the time when Dooku was Jedi which some sources state while Shatterpoint is one of those like Junior Novel that argues Yoda is far stronger than Dooku/Mace

They do disagree, but at the time of AOTC, after Dooku got all those DS trainings, he is confirmed equal to Yoda

When did TCW Yoda fight Dooku?

During their duel on Vjun. I can look it up if you want it

This happened during the JEDI ORDER time for Dooku. Then Dooku got introduced to powers of his "wildest fantasies" and he became vastly more powerful. The fact that Mace didn't lose after clashing blades a few times doesn't change anything

Thats beside my argument. My point is, the argument is terribly inconsistent due to being the on the scale of Yoda and Anakin at the same time. Also, measuring on the scale of something is different from being equal. Both the Sun and Earth are measured in Miles, doesn't mean they are equal in size.

Mace grew stronger as well from that time, Dooku even states" you will not kill me today" before running away

True, but Dooku's growth is obviously more so due to his continued exposure to something beyond his wildest fantasies

And it is wrong because it was referring to those special moments in which Anakin was Yoda level, not his consistent power. Scale can mean units you use to measure distance, but when you say someone's power is on a scale of power of another person, that means it is comparable, context is important with the definition of the word

Untrue. Nothing suggests that it is referring to special moments for Anakin. It merely means that he is comparable to both, which is very inconsistent. A better scaling is:

ROTJ Vader >> ANH Vader > KFV = ROTS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plaggy

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

Atomizing a person,

Done:

While, again, I'm not trying to prove Plaggy > Vader, but I will rebut some of your evidence

The below though is perfectly true

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being absolutely godly even to near TPM sidious,

So is Vader, he is above ROTS Sidious via being a threat to a much stronger version of Sidious in OT

True

outracing Rain,

Vader reacts to Light itself, after it is fired:

Reaction speed and combat feat is very different. Just pointing it out here, although obviously Vader also has good combat feats

"Tell the droid to give me the bota, Pavan."

"The droid doesn't have it," said I-Five suddenly. Both hands came up in a lethal gesture, lasers firing. The beams sliced toward Vader . . . and stopped mere centimeters from his outstretched hand.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of The Force

as well as scaling above the likes of Exar Kun who is in turn above Muur who is above Vader etc.

Vader is above ROTS Palpatine who scales above all of those

True, the version of VAder that is below Muur is far before ANH, when he was confirmed above ROTS SIdious

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@darthor said:

@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

"Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself." - The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #48.

-

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

This happened during the JEDI ORDER time for Dooku. Then Dooku got introduced to powers of his "wildest fantasies" and he became vastly more powerful. The fact that Mace didn't lose after clashing blades a few times doesn't change anything

I wouldn't really use that quote in the broader context of the legends mythos. It was Matthew Stover who penned a vast increase between Jedi Dooku and Sith Dooku in his novel, but it's not as though his perspective in regard to Dooku falls in step with his fellow EU writers. He conveys that Dooku is a narcissist of the highest order, an utter psychopath, a human-supremacist incapable of emotion. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous hinges the plot on Dooku's ample capacity for normal emotion. Yoda very nearly turns him back. Labyrinth of Evil and Plagueis provide vast insight into Dooku's beliefs and thoughts, and they too are nothing like Stover's work. Legacy of the Jedi comes the closest to loosely resembling Stover's take, but they still don't quite match.

Stover writes that Dooku effortlessly, hilariously dominated Obi-Wan and Anakin in their first encounter. Labyrinth of Evil and the senior Attack of the Clones adaptation write the confrontations as challenging for Dooku. Watching Obi-Wan and Anakin fight droids disgusts Dooku written by Stover, but in Labyrinth of Evil, he is impressed by their prowess and could have watched them all day. It's all manner of details that end up painting a very different picture.

Even Dooku's view of Sidious is different. Under Stover, Dooku is utterly in awe of his master -- infatuated, even, with his intelligence. Plagueis and Labyrinth of Evil depict them as intellectual contemporaries, and Dooku viewed himself as Palpatine's equal. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous goes the opposite direction, with Dooku being endlessly tortured by Sidious throughout his apprenticeship, and he's terrified at the thought of even speaking with Sidious.

Under Stover, Dooku is outclassed by Obi-Wan, not simply Anakin. Even Grievous outperforms him. This is not at all the take one would pull from Star Wars Republic, Obsession, Labyrinth of Evil, Plagueis, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Star Wars: Jedi, and so forth.

Chances are, if you're reading some source that majorly hypes up Dooku as a Jedi Master, those writers don't believe that Dooku grew stronger beyond his wildest fantasies.

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Vader folds him in half

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Darthor

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@uhu123 said:

@darthor:

Reaction speed and combat feat is very different. Just pointing it out here, although obviously Vader also has good combat feats

The force grants the user significant precognition, so SW characters are not automatically LS just by virtue of reacting to Blasters, it's unquantifiable. LS (or even relativistic) force users would be quite inconsistent in-verse and make the very concept of any fight between a force user and a non force user utterly ridiculous.

In universe obviously the Jedi are not LS, but the fact that Obi Wan can react to blasters point blank at the last possible instance (AOTC) or jumping and deflecting blasters from armies is quite impressive and really points to their reaction speed as LS in legends

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#170  Edited By frozen  Moderator

Precognition doesn't mean that Jedi don't have FTL reflexes. This is because it requires speed to follow up on precog. So even if precog alerts the jedi of danger, they are still physically moving their limbs into a blocking position as the blaster bolt is firing - which would mean they would have to be capable of moving body parts at a speed which is faster than the blaster bolt. The only way precog would invalidate FTL reactions is if the jedi in question has moved their arm in position to block before the blaster bolt has fired (aim blocking). This is almost never the case when jedi block blasters.

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

They do disagree, but at the time of AOTC, after Dooku got all those DS trainings, he is confirmed equal to Yoda

During their duel on Vjun. I can look it up if you want it

Not in AOTC Junior Novelization though, which even states Yoda does not want to hurt him

Yoda did want to stop the war. And they are equal per a lot of sources:

Yoda took a keen interest in the young Dooku. He assisted in Dooku's combat training and as a result, the Padawan became especially proficient with a lightsaber. Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him.

Source: Insider #109

Although, most sources have Yoda > Jedi Dooku, so this is not the argument you should buy. But what you should buy tho:

Another source claims that Dooku's skill is unmatched save for Yoda:

[Dooku's] skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.

Canon: Dooku holds his own against MasterYoda, forcing a stalemate before departing the battle. Yoda himself congratulates Dooku for fighting well, and later claims that his bout with Dooku was sufficient practice to keep his skills honed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLV-Vpy1gqQ

"Fought well you have, my old Padawan."

Source: Attack of the Clones

With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.

Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones.

Source: Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3

It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

Here, his decades of lightsabre training gave him the ability to parry and riposte against Yoda's frenzied Form IV fighting style. Although the match ended in a stalemate, many Jedi believed Dooku would return for another confrontation with the Jedi.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

Forced to cross sabers with Dooku, Yoda falls back on his knowledge of Form IV, an acrobatic style that lets him overcome the natural limitations of his size and reach. He lacks the stamina of youth, but calls on the Force to fight the Sith Lord to a draw.

Source: Attack of the Clones: The Expanded Visual Dictionary

Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)

Note, it is entirely possible that Yoda > Dooku, but they are exceedingly close during the time of AOTC

Please do, I am kind of curious on that

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.

Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.

He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.

Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.

Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.

Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.

... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.

Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.

Source: Yoda Dark Redevous

True, but Dooku's growth is obviously more so due to his continued exposure to something beyond his wildest fantasies

that is fiar, my point was just that Mace still stayed around Dooku level while he states Kar is far above him force wuse

Most of the sources refers to Dooku as being above Mace

Untrue. Nothing suggests that it is referring to special moments for Anakin. It merely means that he is comparable to both, which is very inconsistent. A better scaling is:

ROTJ Vader >> ANH Vader > KFV = ROTS Sidious > TPM Sidious > Plaggy

Eh i kind of disagree on some of that, but hey as long as we agree on what matters( Vader>KFV and Vader>Plaggy) i am more than happy with that!

What dyu disagree with? Cause ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ANH Vader, who himself is confirmed above KFV, who per G-canon (I know thats not a thing anymore) to be equal to Sidious, who obviously improved from TPM, who is stated as being above PLaggy

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

Reaction speed and combat feat is very different. Just pointing it out here, although obviously Vader also has good combat feats

The reaction is the time actually in which you can react. not speed, it is measured in units of time, as in milliseconds, nanoseconds, etc, for Vader to be able to move his arm forward after Light was fired would still show he at least moved at relativistic speed

Fair enough then

Anyway, we pretty much agree on what matters, nice talking with you! I am only yet curious for that Yoda Dooku second fight

I sent it in the post above

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@darthor said:

@eredin12 said:

@darthor:

"Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself." - The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #48.

-

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

This happened during the JEDI ORDER time for Dooku. Then Dooku got introduced to powers of his "wildest fantasies" and he became vastly more powerful. The fact that Mace didn't lose after clashing blades a few times doesn't change anything

I wouldn't really use that quote in the broader context of the legends mythos. It was Matthew Stover who penned a vast increase between Jedi Dooku and Sith Dooku in his novel, but it's not as though his perspective in regard to Dooku falls in step with his fellow EU writers. He conveys that Dooku is a narcissist of the highest order, an utter psychopath, a human-supremacist incapable of emotion. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous hinges the plot on Dooku's ample capacity for normal emotion. Yoda very nearly turns him back. Labyrinth of Evil and Plagueis provide vast insight into Dooku's beliefs and thoughts, and they too are nothing like Stover's work. Legacy of the Jedi comes the closest to loosely resembling Stover's take, but they still don't quite match.

Stover writes that Dooku effortlessly, hilariously dominated Obi-Wan and Anakin in their first encounter. Labyrinth of Evil and the senior Attack of the Clones adaptation write the confrontations as challenging for Dooku. Watching Obi-Wan and Anakin fight droids disgusts Dooku written by Stover, but in Labyrinth of Evil, he is impressed by their prowess and could have watched them all day. It's all manner of details that end up painting a very different picture.

Even Dooku's view of Sidious is different. Under Stover, Dooku is utterly in awe of his master -- infatuated, even, with his intelligence. Plagueis and Labyrinth of Evil depict them as intellectual contemporaries, and Dooku viewed himself as Palpatine's equal. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous goes the opposite direction, with Dooku being endlessly tortured by Sidious throughout his apprenticeship, and he's terrified at the thought of even speaking with Sidious.

Under Stover, Dooku is outclassed by Obi-Wan, not simply Anakin. Even Grievous outperforms him. This is not at all the take one would pull from Star Wars Republic, Obsession, Labyrinth of Evil, Plagueis, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Star Wars: Jedi, and so forth.

Chances are, if you're reading some source that majorly hypes up Dooku as a Jedi Master, those writers don't believe that Dooku grew stronger beyond his wildest fantasies.

He most certainly didn't in legends. My point is, he got introduced to a lot of new powers in the DS and should improved moreso than Mace or even Yoda

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Darthor

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@eredin12 said:

@darthor: high-level Jedi are LS in Legends though, what Obi-Wan did ( deflecting LS projectiles from an army of 10 000 firing at him all at once, and we saw Jedi moving as fast as blasters or faster many times as well) cannot be slower than that.

Fair enough

As for Yoda as I said it depends, some sources state one thing, some others state something differently

I think most sources agree on a very very slight edge, but the thing I'm trying to prove here is that AOTC Yoda > Base AOTC Anakin, which I think you agreed on.

Thanks for that

No problem

Most of the sources refers to Dooku as being above Mace

What dyu disagree with? Cause ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ANH Vader, who himself is confirmed above KFV, who per G-canon (I know thats not a thing anymore) to be equal to Sidious, who obviously improved from TPM, who is stated as being above PLaggy

My point was that they are at least comparable

They are comparable, which makes the scaling even more inconsistent. On one hand, it says Kam ~ AOTC Anakin, on another, we have:
Kam >> Mace ~ Dooku ~ Yoda >>> AOTC Anakin

I am just not too much sold on KFV being equal to Palpatine, as you said G canon is not thing any more, but as long as we agree on what matters, that is all I care about

Ya know, I do have doubts about the quote, so I guess you have a point there

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#178 killbilly  Moderator

Vader.

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Crucible Luke >>> FoTJ Luke > LoTF Luke > NJO Luke > DE Luke > RoTJ Luke = Yoda >> Fisto > Knight > Padawan > Youngling/Initiate

Plagueis is Yoda level because of Dark Side immersion

Suit Vader is a medium difficulty gap below Yoda

Plagueis wins

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I would say Plagueis. He viewed lightsaber duels as tedious, but that didn't mean he wasn't skilled. He can at least compete with Vader in a lightsaber duel, even if Vader is superior.

But Vader's loss will come through the force itself. Plagueis will eventually prove too fast with augmentation or deliver a fatal telekinetic attack.

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#181 reaperace  Moderator

Vader dominates.

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Vader in a great fight.

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Vader

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Tough call. They are on a similar plane of sheer power, and I'm uncertain who between the two would hold the upper hand there. As far as swordsmanship, I would favour Darth Vader -- of course, by a slim margin. Plagueis should be quicker, and possibly stronger as well. His cold intelligence is greater, and he has far more experience. Likewise, the ancient Plagueis is considerably more knowledgeable in the Force -- that could possibly make him stronger, as well.

It could tip in either direction.

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Vader

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Greysentinel365

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#189  Edited By Greysentinel365

Hego stomps.

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thenamelessone

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Vader slices through him, lol.

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Bump

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Vader

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#194  Edited By Eredin12

Vader one shots, DP is jedi Dooku level, before immense growth Dooku had once he learned dark side.

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@eredin12 said:

Vader one shots, DP is jedi Dooku level, before immense growth Dooku had once he learned dark side.

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#196  Edited By Greysentinel365

Hego smacks.

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MaulSmacker

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also, Hego has to be the most overhyped SW dude.