Darth Vader vs Darth Plagueis

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#1  Edited By ComicStooge

Setting: The Hoth Hangar (Where the Millennium Falcon was)

Rules:

Vader
Vader
Plaguis
Plaguis

- Morals on

- Win via KO, Kill or Incapacitation

- No prep

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deactivated-5c63f773eaecf

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Mismatch

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#3  Edited By ComicStooge

@P0rtal said:

Mismatch

Is it that bad?

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#4  Edited By KnightRise

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#5  Edited By Silver2467
@ComicStooge said:

- Plaguis has two lightsabers

Apologies for nitpicking, but I still am at a loss for why people always, invariably presume that Plagueis' standard modus operandi is to brandish twin blades. Brian Rood's rendition of Plagueis from The Tenebrous Way depicted Plagueis as carrying dual blades, but the reason for this can be surmised in the context of the scene in Darth Plagueis. The Tenebrous Way recited an event that occurred in Plagueis but from the perspective of Tenebrous, the event in question being Tenebrous' own death on Bal'demnic. In Plagueis, it was described that subsequent to killing Tenebrous, Plagueis retrieved the former's lightsaber and attached it to his own belt where he stored his own. In that one scene, he carried two lightsabers, which is why Rood displayed Plagueis with both his own lightsaber and Tenebrous'. However, wielding two blades is not a feature of Plagueis' regular equipment. 
 
When Plagueis confronted the crew of the Woebegone, he killed them with one lightsaber, and that fight took place while Plagueis still had Tenebrous' lightsaber on his person, which means he had the option of bringing dual blades to bear but decided against it. When Plagueis dueled Venamis, Plagueis fought with one lightsaber. When Plagueis and Sidious deflected fire from droids on Hypori, Plagueis employed one lightsaber. When Sidious borrowed Plagueis' lightsaber for the assassination of Max Teem, the lightsaber was never referenced, whether implicitly or explicitly, as being one of a pair. Even when Plagueis and Sidious challenged the Kursid with force pikes, there was nothing in the narrative indicating Plagueis elected to use multiple pikes. All of this points to the fact that Plagueis fights with a single weapon. This is not to say he is unfamiliar with Jar'Kai; he acknowledged Maul's practice of it as commendable. But Plagueis himself has never been portrayed as favoring more than one weapon at a time. Now, if you still want to proceed with the thread with that condition intact, you can, but it is foreign to Plagueis' normal posture. 
 
Regarding the fight itself, Plagueis should win more or less every time. Vader has demonstrated more combative technique than Plagueis has, but that is his only advantage. Plagueis surpasses him in every other area of relevance. Vader has defeated four Jedi casually, defeated Roan Shryne, defeated the Dark Woman, defeated Celeste Morne, fought evenly with an enhanced Maul, fought evenly with Obi-Wan, and fought evenly with Luke. Conversely, for Plagueis, we can only draw from his duel with Venamis, his expertise in various types of weapons, and his knowledge of different lightsaber forms for information on his proficiency as a swordsman. He is good but not quite as good as Vader. If it was a contest of skill, I would hand this to Vader, but there are other factors to consider. 
 
Plagueis is more powerful. His understanding of the Force is deeper, his powers are more esoteric, his speed is superior. Vader's supreme telekinetic feats entail collapsing a cathedral and hurling ships. Those are good, but Plagueis has matched them. Plagueis rather easily supported and then pulled down parts of a cave so quickly that Tenebrous nearly didn't notice it happen. Afterwards, Plagueis telekinetically piled something of a cairn, so to speak, of those fallen boulders and slabs because he lacked the jumping distance to leap out of the cave, and Plagueis has leaped ten meters vertically before, which denotes both how tall the cave was and how much rubble he had to stack. In addition to this, he also smashed his way through the transparisteel viewport of Tenebrous' craft. Later, Plagueis shook the floor of a building enough to knock Maladians to the ground and atomized half a dozen Maladians simultaneously, all while injured and while holding back. If Plagueis can accomplish those without exhausting anywhere near his full supply and considering his status in the Banite lineage, I think I can safely consider Plagueis a superior telekinetic to Vader. Vader is powerful but not quite like Plagueis, who also possesses telekinetic precision enough to operate his powers on a microscopic level (though this is likely with concentration). 
 
Plagueis also can utilize Lightning, though Vader would probably reflect it on his lightsaber which renders it mostly obsolete (and it would not be guaranteed to drop Vader anyway, but it would damage him at least). Both have evinced Force Deflection, Absorption, and Barrier before. Pertaining to Barrier, Vader summoned one to shield himself from blaster bolts while Plagueis did so for repelling assassins. Pertaining to Deflection and Absorption, both of them have used these to influence blaster bolts, but there was one occasion in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader where Vader seemed to have blocked a lightsaber blow with Deflection, though not completely successfully. His glove was singed a bit, but the blow still rebounded from his hand. Whether this really was Deflection or not is arguable, but I generally interpreted it that way instead of the alternative which is simply that his glove is resilient to lightsaber blades (which is demonstrably not true by instances where Vader's forearm has been severed by a lightsaber). However, the odds of Deflection, Absorption, or Barrier arising as an issue in a duel between these two is little to none; so this is probably irrelevant. 
 
Both have released Force Screams before, Vader to wreck medical facilities in a room and Plagueis to shatter the eardrums of Maladians. Vader's appears more impressive, but it's difficult to isolate how much of the damage output should be accredited to Vader's Scream and how much to Vader's TK, since he operated both at once. We could probably speculate on that for a while, but it would just become subjective and as an analytical exercise, not very productive. It is worth pointing out that Vader did increase in power substantially during the months succeeding his duel on Mustafar, which we could take to mean that whatever Force Scream he might deliver would be more powerful later, but this is again speculation. In any case, Plagueis was severely wounded when he unleashed his Scream; so the conjecture that their respective Force Screams would be more powerful in standard circumstances could run both directions. And on top of all that, Scream is an involuntary power anyway; its stake in this match is practically nonexistent. 
 
Vader has a couple other powers such as Alter Environment, which Luke can attest to the effects of, but although Plagueis has never manifested that exact power, he can summon telekinetic barrages that dismantle the area surrounding him with a telekinetic wave that circles him like a storm, as has been described before. This is not the same as Vader harnessing literal winds, but it could offer a counterbalance. Besides, I doubt that would bother Plagueis too much to begin with. Luke was thrashed with it to an extent, but there is little point comparing TESB Luke's powers with Plagueis'. Excluding those, Vader knows Dun Moch, which Luke once again experienced at Vader's hands. Plagueis does know Dun Moch, as he mentioned in a conversation with Sidious at one point, but we have no examples of his talents with it. This could be a non-factor though, because Plagueis has no idea who Vader is, and Vader has only received scant information on Plagueis from Sidious, which limits both of their capacities to invoke that power on one another. 
 
On a somewhat hypothetical note, I wonder if Plagueis could influence any of Vader's life support network with the Force. He stunned a number of security devices in Ars Veruna's home, but how this was done is ambiguous. I submit that Plagueis has learned a skill like Electronic Manipulation (it being Ionize is dubious because Ionize is typically a light sider's skill), but this is just my interpretation. But even granting that I am correct about that, would that affect the fight at all? Obviously, manipulating simple instruments is different than manipulating a Sith alchemy-generated suit of armor that doubles as a life support system. Of course, whether Plagueis even has a propensity for it during combat is another matter too. We have never seen him utilize Electronic Manipulation (or whichever power it was in actuality) during a duel, but then, Plagueis has never been in a situation where that was required either. Funnily enough, during the Clone Wars, Anakin once called on the Force to control two B2 droids to cause them to shoot at one another, though again the specific technique he used was never stated. Like Plagueis, he only exhibited this power on one occasion, and although I have no reason to believe that Vader would forget powers he learned Pre-Mustafar, he has never used this in a fight either (and Vader has fought droids and other machines before). However, Anakin's performance of that power would portend that he could shut down or interfere with the utility of Plagueis' own breathing apparatus. So basically we have Plagueis, who has commanded technology with the Force but may or may not have done so on a scale necessary to replicate the tactic on Vader, and then we have Vader, who has commanded technology with the Force on a scale that is necessary to replicate the tactic on Plagueis but has only used the power as Anakin.... But since neither have used this in a fight, it may not even matter. 
 
But anyway, on physicality, this area underlines clearer disparities between the two. Durability should be Vader's edge. His armor has resisted explosions, blaster bolts, massive impact force, tons of weight, etc. Plagueis is durable, as he was unharmed by a Kaleesh and a Quara's attempts to slash him with their teeth and claws, but overall, Vader just supersedes him in that aspect. Stamina, I would hand this to Plagueis, more than likely, but it may not become an issue. Plagueis has fought for hours without tiring and later trained himself never to sleep. Strength, this is debatable, but Vader's strength probably exceeds Plagueis'. Vader has strength feats such as slamming a person on the ground (which was overlayed with concrete or durasteel or some other unnamed pavement substance) hard enough to crack the ground, being unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, tearing steel doors off ships, pulling down crystalline pillars, etc. Plagueis' strength feats involve showings such as kicking enemies across cabins, punching straight through armored assassin's torsos, smashing the skulls of helmeted assassins, and so on (it might be worth noting that the latter two feats, Plagueis achieved while weakened). As a whole, Vader's strength feats are somewhat better but not enough to alter the outcome, same with durability and stamina. 
 
Speed, however, would affect the result of the fight, and honestly, Plagueis is just faster. Vader is usually very underrated in speed, having managed feats such as deflecting blaster bolts from turret emplacements, drawing his lightsaber faster than thought, swinging his lightsaber fast enough to compose a shield out of his blade, fighting so quickly his arms seemed to teleport, deflecting floods of blaster fire from enemies, producing afterimages of his lightsaber, moving in less than an eyeblink, and so on. But then, Plagueis has deflected blaster bolts from a miniature army of droids while running a revolving pattern around Sidious at a pace faster than the blaster bolts, fought an army of hundreds Kursid warriors with nothing except a force pike without sustaining a hit, dueled Venamis so fast that the residual sweeps of their lightsaber blades' blurring trails through the forest could be seen in several places simultaneously giving the illusion of lightning passing through the forest, ran in a blur to the vision of a droid who can react to blaster bolts, maintained a running pace with Tenebrous who dashed so quickly that Plaguies was nearly knocked by over the speed of Tenebrous' rush, etc. Plagueis is fast and trumps Vader in perception speed, reaction speed, combat speed, and especially movement speed. While I consider Vader's speed underappreciated, I honestly have never seen him run superhumanly fast despite the different instances where he has been shown to run from place to place; his Force-derived speed mostly seems to augment his perception, reaction, and combat speed rather than his running speed (there could be an example of him running superhumanly fast, but I personally am not aware of one). On the other hand, Plagueis' running speed transcends most Force sensitives' running speed, and charging at and around his opponent during a duel while striking at them with his blade was an approach he appropriated during his duel with Venamis. With that said, Plagueis' speed could really give Vader problems. Vader can certainly react to and perceive Plagueis' movements, but Plagueis can attack him with greater rapidity and raw speed than Vader can return to him. And truth be told, I don't see Vader landing a single hit on Plagueis. Plagueis would not overpower Vader instantly by sheer speed or anything like that, but it would compound Plagueis' already considerable physical stats and power and compensate for Plagueis' inferior fighting skill. 
 
With combat speed that noticeably overshadows Vader's, potency with the Force that also overshadows Vader's, and sufficient finesse with a lightsaber to pose a challenge purely on that front, you can tell who I would pick here. Aside from his level as a lightsaber adept, Plagueis is just better at everything important. All of his advantages (and made-up-for disadvantage) accounted for, Plagueis should win most rounds. In spite of that, this thread shouldn't be locked. There are points to this fight that can be discussed.
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#6  Edited By ComicStooge

@Silver2467 said:

@ComicStooge said:

- Plaguis has two lightsabers

Apologies for nitpicking, but I still am at a loss for why people always, invariably presume that Plagueis' standard modus operandi is to brandish twin blades. Brian Rood's rendition of Plagueis from The Tenebrous Way depicted Plagueis as carrying dual blades, but the reason for this can be surmised in the context of the scene in Darth Plagueis. The Tenebrous Way recited an event that occurred in Plagueis but from the perspective of Tenebrous, the event in question being Tenebrous' own death on Bal'demnic. In Plagueis, it was described that subsequent to killing Tenebrous, Plagueis retrieved the former's lightsaber and attached it to his own belt where he stored his own. In that one scene, he carried two lightsabers, which is why Rood displayed Plagueis with both his own lightsaber and Tenebrous'. However, wielding two blades is not a feature of Plagueis' regular equipment.

When Plagueis confronted the crew of the Woebegone, he killed them with one lightsaber, and that fight took place while Plagueis still had Tenebrous' lightsaber on his person, which means he had the option of bringing dual blades to bear but decided against it. When Plagueis dueled Venamis, Plagueis fought with one lightsaber. When Plagueis and Sidious deflected fire from droids on Hypori, Plagueis employed one lightsaber. When Sidious borrowed Plagueis' lightsaber for the assassination of Max Teem, the lightsaber was never referenced, whether implicitly or explicitly, as being one of a pair. Even when Plagueis and Sidious challenged the Kursid with force pikes, there was nothing in the narrative indicating Plagueis elected to use multiple pikes. All of this points to the fact that Plagueis fights with a single weapon. This is not to say he is unfamiliar with Jar'Kai; he acknowledged Maul's practice of it as commendable. But Plagueis himself has never been portrayed as favoring more than one weapon at a time. Now, if you still want to proceed with the thread with that condition intact, you can, but it is foreign to Plagueis' normal posture.

Regarding the fight itself, Plagueis should win more or less every time. Vader has demonstrated more combative technique than Plagueis has, but that is his only advantage. Plagueis surpasses him in every other area of relevance. Vader has defeated four Jedi casually, defeated Roan Shryne, defeated the Dark Woman, defeated Celeste Morne, fought evenly with an enhanced Maul, fought evenly with Obi-Wan, and fought evenly with Luke. Conversely, for Plagueis, we can only draw from his duel with Venamis, his expertise in various types of weapons, and his knowledge of different lightsaber forms for information on his proficiency as a swordsman. He is good but not quite as good as Vader. If it was a contest of skill, I would hand this to Vader, but there are other factors to consider.

Plagueis is more powerful. His understanding of the Force is deeper, his powers are more esoteric, his speed is superior. Vader's supreme telekinetic feats entail collapsing a cathedral and hurling ships. Those are good, but Plagueis has matched them. Plagueis rather easily supported and then pulled down parts of a cave so quickly that Tenebrous nearly didn't notice it happen. Afterwards, Plagueis telekinetically piled something of a cairn, so to speak, of those fallen boulders and slabs because he lacked the jumping distance to leap out of the cave, and Plagueis has leaped ten meters vertically before, which denotes both how tall the cave was and how much rubble he had to stack. In addition to this, he also smashed his way through the transparisteel viewport of Tenebrous' craft. Later, Plagueis shook the floor of a building enough to knock Maladians to the ground and atomized half a dozen Maladians simultaneously, all while injured and while holding back. If Plagueis can accomplish those without exhausting anywhere near his full supply and considering his status in the Banite lineage, I think I can safely consider Plagueis a superior telekinetic to Vader. Vader is powerful but not quite like Plagueis, who also possesses telekinetic precision enough to operate his powers on a microscopic level (though this is likely with concentration).

Plagueis also can utilize Lightning, though Vader would probably reflect it on his lightsaber which renders it mostly obsolete (and it would not be guaranteed to drop Vader anyway, but it would damage him at least). Both have evinced Force Deflection, Absorption, and Barrier before. Pertaining to Barrier, Vader summoned one to shield himself from blaster bolts while Plagueis did so for repelling assassins. Pertaining to Deflection and Absorption, both of them have used these to influence blaster bolts, but there was one occasion in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader where Vader seemed to have blocked a lightsaber blow with Deflection, though not completely successfully. His glove was singed a bit, but the blow still rebounded from his hand. Whether this really was Deflection or not is arguable, but I generally interpreted it that way instead of the alternative which is simply that his glove is resilient to lightsaber blades (which is demonstrably not true by instances where Vader's forearm has been severed by a lightsaber). However, the odds of Deflection, Absorption, or Barrier arising as an issue in a duel between these two is little to none; so this is probably irrelevant.

Both have released Force Screams before, Vader to wreck medical facilities in a room and Plagueis to shatter the eardrums of Maladians. Vader's appears more impressive, but it's difficult to isolate how much of the damage output should be accredited to Vader's Scream and how much to Vader's TK, since he operated both at once. We could probably speculate on that for a while, but it would just become subjective and as an analytical exercise, not very productive. It is worth pointing out that Vader did increase in power substantially during the months succeeding his duel on Mustafar, which we could take to mean that whatever Force Scream he might deliver would be more powerful later, but this is again speculation. In any case, Plagueis was severely wounded when he unleashed his Scream; so the conjecture that their respective Force Screams would be more powerful in standard circumstances could run both directions. And on top of all that, Scream is an involuntary power anyway; its stake in this match is practically nonexistent.

Vader has a couple other powers such as Alter Environment, which Luke can attest to the effects of, but although Plagueis has never manifested that exact power, he can summon telekinetic barrages that dismantle the area surrounding him with a telekinetic wave that circles him like a storm, as has been described before. This is not the same as Vader harnessing literal winds, but it could offer a counterbalance. Besides, I doubt that would bother Plagueis too much to begin with. Luke was thrashed with it to an extent, but there is little point comparing TESB Luke's powers with Plagueis'. LOL. Excluding those, Vader knows Dun Moch, which Luke once again experienced at Vader's hands. Plagueis does know Dun Moch, as he mentioned in a conversation with Sidious at one point, but we have no examples of his talents with it. This could be a non-factor though, because Plagueis has no idea who Vader is, and Vader has only received scant information on Plagueis from Sidious, which limits both of their capacities to invoke the power on one another.

On a somewhat hypothetical note, I wonder if Plagueis could influence any of Vader's life support network with the Force. He stunned a number of security devices in Ars Veruna's home, but how this was done is ambiguous. I submit that Plagueis has learned a skill like Electronic Manipulation (it being Ionize is dubious because Ionize is typically a light sider's skill), but this is just my interpretation. But even granting that I am correct about that, would that affect the fight at all? Obviously, manipulating simple instruments is different than manipulating a Sith alchemy-generated suit of armor that doubles as a life support system. Of course, whether Plagueis even has a propensity for it during combat is another matter too. We have never seen him utilize Electronic Manipulation (or whichever power it was in actuality) during a duel, but then, Plagueis has never been in a situation where that was required either. Funnily enough, during the Clone Wars, Anakin once called on the Force to control two B2 droids to cause them to shoot at one another, though again the specific technique he used was never stated. Like Plagueis, he only exhibited this power on one occasion, and although I have no reason to believe that Vader would forget powers he learned Pre-Mustafar, he has never used this in a fight either (and Vader has fought droids and other machines before). However, Anakin's performance of that power would portend that he could shut down or interfere with the utility of Plagueis' own breathing apparatus. So basically we have Plagueis, who has commanded technology with the Force but may or may not have done so on a scale necessary to replicate the tactic on Vader, and then we have Vader, who has commanded technology with the Force on a scale that is necessary to replicate the tactic on Plagueis but has only used the power as Anakin.... But since neither have used this in a fight, it may not even matter.

But anyway, on physicality, this area underlines clearer disparities between the two. Durability should be Vader's edge. His armor has resisted explosions, blaster bolts, massive impact force, tons of weight, etc. Plagueis is durable, as he was unharmed by a Kaleesh and a Quara's attempts to slash him with their teeth and claws, but overall, Vader just supersedes him in that aspect. Stamina, I would hand this to Plagueis, more than likely, but it may not become an issue. Plagueis has fought for hours without tiring and later trained himself never to sleep. Strength, this is debatable, but Vader's strength probably exceeds Plagueis'. Vader has strength feats such as slamming a person on the ground (which was overlayed with concrete or durasteel or some other unnamed pavement substance) hard enough to crack the ground, being unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, tearing steel doors off ships, pulling down crystalline pillars, etc. Plagueis' strength feats involve showings such as kicking enemies across cabins, punching straight through armored assassin's torsos, smashing the skulls of helmeted assassins, and so on (it might be worth noting that the latter two feats, Plagueis achieved while weakened). As a whole, Vader's strength feats are somewhat better but not enough to alter the outcome, same with durability and stamina.

Speed, however, would affect the result of the fight, and honestly, Plagueis is just faster. Vader is usually very underrated in speed, having managed feats such as deflecting blaster bolts from turret emplacements, drawing his lightsaber faster than thought, swinging his lightsaber fast enough to compose a shield out of his blade, fighting so quickly his arms seemed to teleport, deflecting floods of blaster fire from enemies, producing afterimages of his lightsaber, moving in less than an eyeblink, and so on. But then, Plagueis has deflected blaster bolts from a miniature army of droids while running a revolving pattern around Sidious at a pace faster than the blaster bolts, fought an army of hundreds Kursid warriors with nothing except a force pike without sustaining a hit, dueled Venamis so fast that the residual blurs of their lightsaber blades sweeping through the forest could be seen in several places simultaneously giving the illusion of lightning passing through the forest, ran in a blur to the vision of a droid who can react to blaster bolts, maintained a running pace with Tenebrous who dashed so quickly that Plaguies was nearly knocked over the speed of Tenebrous' rush, etc. Plagueis is fast and trumps Vader in perception speed, reaction speed, combat speed, and especially movement speed. While I consider Vader's speed underappreciated, I honestly have never seen him run superhumanly fast despite the different instances where he has been shown to run from place to place; his Force-derived speed mostly seems to augment his perception, reaction, and combat speed rather than his running speed (there could be an example of him running superhumanly fast, but I personally am not aware of one). On the other hand, Plagueis' running speed transcends most Force sensitives' running speed, and charging at and around his opponent during a duel while striking at them with his blade was an approach he appropriated during his duel with Venamis. With that said, Plagueis' speed could really give Vader problems. Vader can certainly react to and perceive Plagueis' movements, but Plagueis can attack him with greater rapidity and raw speed than Vader can return to him. Plagueis would not overpower Vader instantly by sheer speed or anything like that, but it would compound Plagueis' already considerable physical stats and power and compensate for Plagueis' inferior fighting skill. With combat speed that noticeably overshadows Vader's, potency with the Force that also overshadows Vader's, and sufficient finesse with a lightsaber to pose a challenge purely on that front, you can tell who I would pick here. Aside from his level as a lightsaber adept, Plagueis is just better at everything important. All of his advantages (and made-up-for disadvantage) accounted for, Plagueis should win most rounds. In spite of that, this thread shouldn't be locked. There are points to this fight that can be discussed.

Would it make more sense for me to switch to one?

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#7  Edited By ComicStooge

@Silver2467: Then I shall.

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#8  Edited By ShootingNova

I don't really want to bump this, but I'm just going to reply since I was called.

@KnightRise said:

I'm not upper office, LOL. And Plagueis certainly wins. Just reference Silver's post, I can't be bothered re-posting everything he did in an inferior fashion.

@Silver2467 said:

fighting so quickly his arms seemed to teleport

Another commendable post, but this is my only point of disagreement, though if this is an error on your part, then it would be my fault, so I apologize. As I recall, Vader has not done this before, and if you are wondering why that is (as I have presumably already quoted such for you), except that was not the quote at all, there was never anything like this in Last of the Jedi, all the quotes supposedly given were false. If you were wondering why I would say this, is because none of those supposed quotes are quotes, just randomly generated excuses. To further clarify on this, yes, I deceived you (hence my apology), and I myself was also deceived (thus resulting in your deception), because the Last of the Jedi series is not even mine, I never owned it, but in fact, I had supposed quotes from it (and yes, they were false but if you really want the details on this, just PM me). If it would help as a substitute, Vader did do something similarly resembling to that, which would be dodging Ferus's strikes before they even landed, hence Vader "not even being there" when Ferus attacked him, which is quite impressive. Yeah, finally got the series by my own hand. Anyways, the main point of this is an apology to you.

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#9  Edited By Silver2467
@ShootingNova said: 

Another commendable post, but this is my only point of disagreement, though if this is an error on your part, then it would be my fault, so I apologize. As I recall, Vader has not done this before, and if you are wondering why that is (as I have presumably already quoted such for you), except that was not the quote at all, there was never anything like this in Last of the Jedi, all the quotes supposedly given were false. If you were wondering why I would say this, is because none of those supposed quotes are quotes, just randomly generated excuses. To further clarify on this, yes, I deceived you (hence my apology), and I myself was also deceived (thus resulting in your deception), because the Last of the Jedi series is not even mine, I never owned it, but in fact, I had supposed quotes from it (and yes, they were false but if you really want the details on this, just PM me). If it would help as a substitute, Vader did do something similarly resembling to that, which would be dodging Ferus's strikes before they even landed, hence Vader "not even being there" when Ferus attacked him, which is quite impressive. Yeah, finally got the series by my own hand. Anyways, the main point of this is an apology to you.

I never received a notification for this in my inbox. I was referring to the quotes you provided me, but I also remembered incorrectly feats from Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Galaxy of Fear series, both of which, contrary to my memory, simply described Vader's movements as invisibly fast. However, in Splinter, Vader drew his lightsaber from his belt, raised it, and slashed a man in half so fast his movements could not be seen. So that is more or less the same. So technically, the exact description "so fast he seemed to teleport" has never been assigned to Vader from the appearances of his I have read, but his feats are still of that category. And regarding misinformation, no worries.
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@ComicStooge said:

- Plaguis has two lightsabers

Apologies for nitpicking, but I still am at a loss for why people always, invariably presume that Plagueis' standard modus operandi is to brandish twin blades. Brian Rood's rendition of Plagueis from The Tenebrous Way depicted Plagueis as carrying dual blades, but the reason for this can be surmised in the context of the scene in Darth Plagueis. The Tenebrous Way recited an event that occurred in Plagueis but from the perspective of Tenebrous, the event in question being Tenebrous' own death on Bal'demnic. In Plagueis, it was described that subsequent to killing Tenebrous, Plagueis retrieved the former's lightsaber and attached it to his own belt where he stored his own. In that one scene, he carried two lightsabers, which is why Rood displayed Plagueis with both his own lightsaber and Tenebrous'. However, wielding two blades is not a feature of Plagueis' regular equipment.

When Plagueis confronted the crew of the Woebegone, he killed them with one lightsaber, and that fight took place while Plagueis still had Tenebrous' lightsaber on his person, which means he had the option of bringing dual blades to bear but decided against it. When Plagueis dueled Venamis, Plagueis fought with one lightsaber. When Plagueis and Sidious deflected fire from droids on Hypori, Plagueis employed one lightsaber. When Sidious borrowed Plagueis' lightsaber for the assassination of Max Teem, the lightsaber was never referenced, whether implicitly or explicitly, as being one of a pair. Even when Plagueis and Sidious challenged the Kursid with force pikes, there was nothing in the narrative indicating Plagueis elected to use multiple pikes. All of this points to the fact that Plagueis fights with a single weapon. This is not to say he is unfamiliar with Jar'Kai; he acknowledged Maul's practice of it as commendable. But Plagueis himself has never been portrayed as favoring more than one weapon at a time. Now, if you still want to proceed with the thread with that condition intact, you can, but it is foreign to Plagueis' normal posture.

Regarding the fight itself, Plagueis should win more or less every time. Vader has demonstrated more combative technique than Plagueis has, but that is his only advantage. Plagueis surpasses him in every other area of relevance. Vader has defeated four Jedi casually, defeated Roan Shryne, defeated the Dark Woman, defeated Celeste Morne, fought evenly with an enhanced Maul, fought evenly with Obi-Wan, and fought evenly with Luke. Conversely, for Plagueis, we can only draw from his duel with Venamis, his expertise in various types of weapons, and his knowledge of different lightsaber forms for information on his proficiency as a swordsman. He is good but not quite as good as Vader. If it was a contest of skill, I would hand this to Vader, but there are other factors to consider.

Plagueis is more powerful. His understanding of the Force is deeper, his powers are more esoteric, his speed is superior. Vader's supreme telekinetic feats entail collapsing a cathedral and hurling ships. Those are good, but Plagueis has matched them. Plagueis rather easily supported and then pulled down parts of a cave so quickly that Tenebrous nearly didn't notice it happen. Afterwards, Plagueis telekinetically piled something of a cairn, so to speak, of those fallen boulders and slabs because he lacked the jumping distance to leap out of the cave, and Plagueis has leaped ten meters vertically before, which denotes both how tall the cave was and how much rubble he had to stack. In addition to this, he also smashed his way through the transparisteel viewport of Tenebrous' craft. Later, Plagueis shook the floor of a building enough to knock Maladians to the ground and atomized half a dozen Maladians simultaneously, all while injured and while holding back. If Plagueis can accomplish those without exhausting anywhere near his full supply and considering his status in the Banite lineage, I think I can safely consider Plagueis a superior telekinetic to Vader. Vader is powerful but not quite like Plagueis, who also possesses telekinetic precision enough to operate his powers on a microscopic level (though this is likely with concentration).

Plagueis also can utilize Lightning, though Vader would probably reflect it on his lightsaber which renders it mostly obsolete (and it would not be guaranteed to drop Vader anyway, but it would damage him at least). Both have evinced Force Deflection, Absorption, and Barrier before. Pertaining to Barrier, Vader summoned one to shield himself from blaster bolts while Plagueis did so for repelling assassins. Pertaining to Deflection and Absorption, both of them have used these to influence blaster bolts, but there was one occasion in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader where Vader seemed to have blocked a lightsaber blow with Deflection, though not completely successfully. His glove was singed a bit, but the blow still rebounded from his hand. Whether this really was Deflection or not is arguable, but I generally interpreted it that way instead of the alternative which is simply that his glove is resilient to lightsaber blades (which is demonstrably not true by instances where Vader's forearm has been severed by a lightsaber). However, the odds of Deflection, Absorption, or Barrier arising as an issue in a duel between these two is little to none; so this is probably irrelevant.

Both have released Force Screams before, Vader to wreck medical facilities in a room and Plagueis to shatter the eardrums of Maladians. Vader's appears more impressive, but it's difficult to isolate how much of the damage output should be accredited to Vader's Scream and how much to Vader's TK, since he operated both at once. We could probably speculate on that for a while, but it would just become subjective and as an analytical exercise, not very productive. It is worth pointing out that Vader did increase in power substantially during the months succeeding his duel on Mustafar, which we could take to mean that whatever Force Scream he might deliver would be more powerful later, but this is again speculation. In any case, Plagueis was severely wounded when he unleashed his Scream; so the conjecture that their respective Force Screams would be more powerful in standard circumstances could run both directions. And on top of all that, Scream is an involuntary power anyway; its stake in this match is practically nonexistent.

Vader has a couple other powers such as Alter Environment, which Luke can attest to the effects of, but although Plagueis has never manifested that exact power, he can summon telekinetic barrages that dismantle the area surrounding him with a telekinetic wave that circles him like a storm, as has been described before. This is not the same as Vader harnessing literal winds, but it could offer a counterbalance. Besides, I doubt that would bother Plagueis too much to begin with. Luke was thrashed with it to an extent, but there is little point comparing TESB Luke's powers with Plagueis'. Excluding those, Vader knows Dun Moch, which Luke once again experienced at Vader's hands. Plagueis does know Dun Moch, as he mentioned in a conversation with Sidious at one point, but we have no examples of his talents with it. This could be a non-factor though, because Plagueis has no idea who Vader is, and Vader has only received scant information on Plagueis from Sidious, which limits both of their capacities to invoke that power on one another.

On a somewhat hypothetical note, I wonder if Plagueis could influence any of Vader's life support network with the Force. He stunned a number of security devices in Ars Veruna's home, but how this was done is ambiguous. I submit that Plagueis has learned a skill like Electronic Manipulation (it being Ionize is dubious because Ionize is typically a light sider's skill), but this is just my interpretation. But even granting that I am correct about that, would that affect the fight at all? Obviously, manipulating simple instruments is different than manipulating a Sith alchemy-generated suit of armor that doubles as a life support system. Of course, whether Plagueis even has a propensity for it during combat is another matter too. We have never seen him utilize Electronic Manipulation (or whichever power it was in actuality) during a duel, but then, Plagueis has never been in a situation where that was required either. Funnily enough, during the Clone Wars, Anakin once called on the Force to control two B2 droids to cause them to shoot at one another, though again the specific technique he used was never stated. Like Plagueis, he only exhibited this power on one occasion, and although I have no reason to believe that Vader would forget powers he learned Pre-Mustafar, he has never used this in a fight either (and Vader has fought droids and other machines before). However, Anakin's performance of that power would portend that he could shut down or interfere with the utility of Plagueis' own breathing apparatus. So basically we have Plagueis, who has commanded technology with the Force but may or may not have done so on a scale necessary to replicate the tactic on Vader, and then we have Vader, who has commanded technology with the Force on a scale that is necessary to replicate the tactic on Plagueis but has only used the power as Anakin.... But since neither have used this in a fight, it may not even matter.

But anyway, on physicality, this area underlines clearer disparities between the two. Durability should be Vader's edge. His armor has resisted explosions, blaster bolts, massive impact force, tons of weight, etc. Plagueis is durable, as he was unharmed by a Kaleesh and a Quara's attempts to slash him with their teeth and claws, but overall, Vader just supersedes him in that aspect. Stamina, I would hand this to Plagueis, more than likely, but it may not become an issue. Plagueis has fought for hours without tiring and later trained himself never to sleep. Strength, this is debatable, but Vader's strength probably exceeds Plagueis'. Vader has strength feats such as slamming a person on the ground (which was overlayed with concrete or durasteel or some other unnamed pavement substance) hard enough to crack the ground, being unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, tearing steel doors off ships, pulling down crystalline pillars, etc. Plagueis' strength feats involve showings such as kicking enemies across cabins, punching straight through armored assassin's torsos, smashing the skulls of helmeted assassins, and so on (it might be worth noting that the latter two feats, Plagueis achieved while weakened). As a whole, Vader's strength feats are somewhat better but not enough to alter the outcome, same with durability and stamina.

Speed, however, would affect the result of the fight, and honestly, Plagueis is just faster. Vader is usually very underrated in speed, having managed feats such as deflecting blaster bolts from turret emplacements, drawing his lightsaber faster than thought, swinging his lightsaber fast enough to compose a shield out of his blade, fighting so quickly his arms seemed to teleport, deflecting floods of blaster fire from enemies, producing afterimages of his lightsaber, moving in less than an eyeblink, and so on. But then, Plagueis has deflected blaster bolts from a miniature army of droids while running a revolving pattern around Sidious at a pace faster than the blaster bolts, fought an army of hundreds Kursid warriors with nothing except a force pike without sustaining a hit, dueled Venamis so fast that the residual sweeps of their lightsaber blades' blurring trails through the forest could be seen in several places simultaneously giving the illusion of lightning passing through the forest, ran in a blur to the vision of a droid who can react to blaster bolts, maintained a running pace with Tenebrous who dashed so quickly that Plaguies was nearly knocked by over the speed of Tenebrous' rush, etc. Plagueis is fast and trumps Vader in perception speed, reaction speed, combat speed, and especially movement speed. While I consider Vader's speed underappreciated, I honestly have never seen him run superhumanly fast despite the different instances where he has been shown to run from place to place; his Force-derived speed mostly seems to augment his perception, reaction, and combat speed rather than his running speed (there could be an example of him running superhumanly fast, but I personally am not aware of one). On the other hand, Plagueis' running speed transcends most Force sensitives' running speed, and charging at and around his opponent during a duel while striking at them with his blade was an approach he appropriated during his duel with Venamis. With that said, Plagueis' speed could really give Vader problems. Vader can certainly react to and perceive Plagueis' movements, but Plagueis can attack him with greater rapidity and raw speed than Vader can return to him. And truth be told, I don't see Vader landing a single hit on Plagueis. Plagueis would not overpower Vader instantly by sheer speed or anything like that, but it would compound Plagueis' already considerable physical stats and power and compensate for Plagueis' inferior fighting skill.

With combat speed that noticeably overshadows Vader's, potency with the Force that also overshadows Vader's, and sufficient finesse with a lightsaber to pose a challenge purely on that front, you can tell who I would pick here. Aside from his level as a lightsaber adept, Plagueis is just better at everything important. All of his advantages (and made-up-for disadvantage) accounted for, Plagueis should win most rounds. In spite of that, this thread shouldn't be locked. There are points to this fight that can be discussed.

Plagueis is more powerful force-user, but i dont think it will have any affect on Vader, since he is only slightly weaker. And about speed. Vaders hands seemed to teleport... for a jedi knight. For me, that is more impressive speed feat than Plagueises "lightning fight" with Venamis. Venamis was able to react to Plagueis and Roan was unable to react to Vaders moves and he is a jedi knight. And about that Kursid fight... Plagueis and Sidious fought hundredes of them, but they werent attacking them with all their numbers at once. It seemed small waves were seperated from that big kursid croud so it was 2 to 1, 3 to 1, or 1 on 1. And the most important thing - kursid warriors are not force-sensitives.

Plus, Vader have a very big advantage in lightsaber duel. He is a much better duelist than Plagueis.

Ok, thats my opinion. :D

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ShootingNova

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Plagueis stomps. Far too fast and powerful. He could literally win via utilizing just speed and telekinesis alone.

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Why was this crap bumped? There is no discussion to be added here at all. The general census was that Plagueis wins - no need to bump it and post what was already agreed upon by the users and Star Wars canon.

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Jedisupermaster

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Plagueis stomps. Far too fast and powerful. He could literally win via utilizing just speed and telekinesis alone.

Not far too fast. And his Force power advantage wont help him much to win this battle. He cant ragdoll Vader or do something like that. He will be forced to use his lightsaber. And there Vader has an advantege, since he is a better duelist. Vader wins 6/10.

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Eisenfauste

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@jedisupermaster: Plageuis is far more versatile in terms of lightsaber techniques and forms. Not to mention he has better combat speed than Vader. He also has better h2h feats than him. Vader is a lot more quick than people give him credit for, but he isn't faster than Plagueis.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: Yes, he is. You have nothing to present to the contrary. And yes, he is more powerful than Vader and would likely be capable of ragdolling Vader.

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#16  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@shootingnova said:

@jedisupermaster: Yes, he is. You have nothing to present to the contrary. And yes, he is more powerful than Vader and would likely be capable of ragdolling Vader.

Ragdolling Vader, a master telekinetic and a force-user of a caliber Plagueis never encountered before? Thats noncense. He cant ragdoll a featless Venamis, why should he be able to ragdoll Vader?

And no, he is not. I wrote about this topic in another thread.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: Venamis being featless is inconsequential, especially when he was highly implied to be of Plagueis's class anyways. Vader never ragdolled Obi-Wan or Luke - therefore, he can't compete with Plagueis.

The fact is that Plagueis's showings with telekinesis are vastly above Vader. Stop denying and making up information at your leisure and then choosing to ignore selective portions of information in order to suit your argument. You have nothing to substantiate anything.

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Jedisupermaster

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#18  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@eisenfauste said:

@jedisupermaster: Plageuis is far more versatile in terms of lightsaber techniques and forms. Not to mention he has better combat speed than Vader. He also has better h2h feats than him. Vader is a lot more quick than people give him credit for, but he isn't faster than Plagueis.

Vader is much better than Plagueis as a lightsaber duelist. And he does not have better combat speed than Vader.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: Not much better. From what we know of Plagueis, he can compete with Vader. That, and Vader's victories are all against featless characters.

And he does have better combat speed, vastly.

Just stop responding to me until you give me some level of quality. At this rate, all you are doing is making up information with nothing to support it, or, if you do support it, with distorted views of showings.

Until you opt to change the nature of your responses, then I accept your concession.

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Eisenfauste

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Jedisupermaster

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#21  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@jedisupermaster: Venamis being featless is inconsequential, especially when he was highly implied to be of Plagueis's class anyways. Vader never ragdolled Obi-Wan or Luke - therefore, he can't compete with Plagueis.

The fact is that Plagueis's showings with telekinesis are vastly above Vader. Stop denying and making up information at your leisure and then choosing to ignore selective portions of information in order to suit your argument. You have nothing to substantiate anything.

I wont say that they are vastly above, but i agree they are above. That still doesnt mean he will ragdoll Vader. And Venamis havent shown telekinesis of Vaders level. But i agree he is in Plagueis class in terms of lightsaber skills and combat speed.

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Jedisupermaster

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@jedisupermaster: Not much better. From what we know of Plagueis, he can compete with Vader. That, and Vader's victories are all against featless characters.

And he does have better combat speed, vastly.

Just stop responding to me until you give me some level of quality. At this rate, all you are doing is making up information with nothing to support it, or, if you do support it, with distorted views of showings.

Until you opt to change the nature of your responses, then I accept your concession.

Vader fought on par with great duelists and Plagueis didnt, although he is a master swordsman. So yeah - Vader is superior lightsaber duelist.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: Vader fought on par with Luke. That's it.

I wont say that they are vastly above, but i agree they are above. That still doesnt mean he will ragdoll Vader. And Venamis havent shown telekinesis of Vaders level. But i agree he is in Plagueis class in terms of lightsaber skills and combat speed.

And you still have nothing to say.

I accept your concession. Now stop pestering me.

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Jedisupermaster

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@jedisupermaster: Vader fought on par with Luke. That's it.

I wont say that they are vastly above, but i agree they are above. That still doesnt mean he will ragdoll Vader. And Venamis havent shown telekinesis of Vaders level. But i agree he is in Plagueis class in terms of lightsaber skills and combat speed.

And you still have nothing to say.

I accept your concession. Now stop pestering me.

What about his second duel with Obi Wan? What about his fight with Mauls dopleganger? He lost to Maul, i agree with that, but he was on par with him most of that fight.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: That Obi-Wan is featless. Maul is perhaps the only one that counts, but technically, we aren't entirely sure how much his skill matches up to his TPM incarnation, but it is heavily suggested and logically inferrable that he would be as skilled, so that would count. That's it.

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#26  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@jedisupermaster: That Obi-Wan is featless. Maul is perhaps the only one that counts, but technically, we aren't entirely sure how much his skill matches up to his TPM incarnation, but it is heavily suggested and logically inferrable that he would be as skilled, so that would count. That's it.

It was Obi Wan. Probably weaker, but he is still one of the greatest jedi of all time. With all experience he had and knowledge on Vader.

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ShootingNova

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@jedisupermaster: Yes, and he was much weaker. And this iteration has no feats.

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#28  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@jedisupermaster: Yes, and he was much weaker. And this iteration has no feats.

He had knowledge on Vader, but ok, i agree - that Obi Wan is weaker than his younger self.

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New Discussion of Darth Plagueis,

I would realy appreciat it if you guys could check it out :D

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/blog/darth-plagueis-discussion/100795/

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Plagueis wins via superior mobility, comparable telekinetic ability, and vastly more brutal applications of his telekinesis. While I may veer a bit from Shooting's and other's assessments of Plagueis being faster by a superior margin (he is somewhat), his agility and mobility are all superior to anything displayed by Vader in terms of scale. Being perceived as a lightning bolt in a forest understory, deflecting blasterfire from hundreds of droids, and moving amid hundreds of Kursid warriors without being touched are all immense displays of agility.

Also if Plagueis went to attack Vader with TK as the Maladians Vader would sustain massive amounts of damage in my opinion, whereas, Vader would be struggling to keep up with Plagueis's assault. Hego Damask wins 10/10

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i'll take Plagueis in a majority. I was curious as to Palpatine taking him out while he was asleep after being drunk and not directly taking him out in a confrontation?

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@lordraiden: It was to reinforce his chances. Luceno did claim that Plagueis would have beaten Palpatine in a duel, whereas earlier sources usually cite that Palpatine already had the skill and power to kill Plagueis when he did so. From showings, they're about parallel at the time.

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@lordraiden: It was to reinforce his chances. Luceno did claim that Plagueis would have beaten Palpatine in a duel, whereas earlier sources usually cite that Palpatine already had the skill and power to kill Plagueis when he did so. From showings, they're about parallel at the time.

thank you for the info, much appreciated. Given Luceno's claim, that makes sense, after having read the novel a few times, hence my opinion. I'm assuming for obvious reasons when you say earlier sources, this was before Luceno's novel Dartj Plagueis?

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@lordraiden: Yes. They were in sourcebooks.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith
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@lordraiden: Yes. They were in sourcebooks.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

So Luceno's novel overrides that source material in detail, since it showed in detail how he retired him and how he gained his power and knowledge and was still somewhat fearfull of him till the end, till he officially retired him?

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ShootingNova

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@lordraiden: Technically, he was still hearing Plagueis's words in his head even by the time of Dark Lord, but he was still more powerful at that time.

I view Palpatine ambushing Plagueis more as a safeguard for his chances (which were somewhat fifty-fifty) than being outright incapable of beating Plagueis at all. He did fear for his safety even afterwards, but that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't beat Plagueis. From showings, they're near-equal.

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#37  Edited By lordraiden

@lordraiden: Technically, he was still hearing Plagueis's words in his head even by the time of Dark Lord, but he was still more powerful at that time.

I view Palpatine ambushing Plagueis more as a safeguard for his chances (which were somewhat fifty-fifty) than being outright incapable of beating Plagueis at all. He did fear for his safety even afterwards, but that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't beat Plagueis. From showings, they're near-equal.

Agreed

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#38  Edited By Zapan871  Online

Plagueis, easily.

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Plagueis decisively but with some effort on his part.

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#40  Edited By okayalright_44

Plagueis decisively but with some effort on his part.

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Erkan12

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#41  Edited By Erkan12

Vader ends up like this.

No Caption Provided

Or this ;

No Caption Provided

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Jacthripper

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@erkan12: You do realize that Vader got up and proceeded to kill those who opposed him in both those scenarios, right?

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@erkan12: Yeah, the one where he loses his hand he kills all the Jedi attacking him, and that was when he wasnt used to the suit and he killed maul by stabbing him through his own body

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#45  Edited By Erkan12

@jacthripper: *sarcasm

Yeah, he lost that purge jedi fight actually, clone troopers saved him in the end. Not that he has to win that fight though, he's outnumbered in that fight.

As for the Maul duel, it was the ANH timeline (0-BBY) , so he was used to his suit perfectly there.

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Jacthripper

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#46  Edited By Jacthripper

@erkan12 said:

@jacthripper: *sarcasm

Yeah, he lost that purge jedi fight actually, clone troopers saved him in the end. Not that he has to win that fight though, he's outnumbered in that fight.

As for the Maul duel, it was the ANH timeline (0-BBY) , so he was used to his suit perfectly there.

And he killed Maul and only one jedi was taken down by the clones

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ShootingNova

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@jacthripper: The fact that Vader improved drastically in the years following both of those instances discredits the lowballing entirely.

That said, he won't win one round against an opponent who is considerably faster and more powerful than he is.

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Jedisupermaster

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#48  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@shootingnova said:

@jacthripper: The fact that Vader improved drastically in the years following both of those instances discredits the lowballing entirely.

That said, he won't win one round against an opponent who is considerably faster and more powerful than he is.

Name me at least one speed/reflexes feat that puts Plagueis in a speed class higher than that of Vader. At least one. Of course, you can ignore me, but that will look like you cant do that.

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Redhalo9

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@silver2467: just to let you no when Vader fought maul this was not the real maul proof being this maul had organic legs

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JarJarBinks

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#50  Edited By JarJarBinks

I am actually Darth Plagueis. Confirmed. Anyway, while my apprentice's apprentice MIGHT have an advantage where saber combat is concerned, my power and speed combined would be his undoing.

The wait lasted only until Plagueis attempted to unleash lightning. His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.
In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more.

-Darth Plagueis

To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air—no mean feat in itself—and continued the fight, as if from high ground. Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. In short order, Venamis penetrated his defenses, searing the side of Plagueis’s neck.
The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

-Darth Plagueis

Palpatine was foolish. He should have known he couldn't have survived without me and he failed to train an apprentice stronger than himself. Now I have returned, I will do what he could not.