Avatar image for frozen
#1 Posted by Frozen (21116 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Vader (original trilogy)

No Caption Provided

Count Dooku (prequel trilogy)

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • Strictly movie feats (no Clone Wars feats)
  • No prep
  • Morals off (they already are regardless...I guess)
  • Takes place where Luke and Vader fought in ROTJ

Avatar image for darkdefender
#2 Edited by DarkDefender (4074 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Vader hasn't shown the ability to block lightning while Dooku has shown his own capability in countering TK and superior skill as a duelist.

Dooku 10/10.

Avatar image for foxerdes
#3 Posted by foxerdes (9953 posts) - - Show Bio

Movie version?

I'm going with Count Dooku, he was simply more impressive.

Defeating Kenobi/Skywalker and holding his own against Yoda for a while is better than defeating Luke in my opinion...

......

.....

They were both betrayed by Sidious in the end... ;-;

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#4 Posted by rogueshadow (29159 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Moderator
Avatar image for dark-sith123
#5 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Movies only, Dooku. Better duelist and matches all of Vader's feats in the Force.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#6 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

Agree with Dooku. Vader was slow and clunky in the movies alone when he fought Luke, although that's probably due to filming limitations.

Avatar image for lubub55
#7 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless Dooku abuses the Force from the get-go, Vader wins pretty easily.

Avatar image for dark-sith123
#8 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:

The Force is the only thing even between them. Movie-wise, Dooku far outshines Vader's skill with a blade.

Avatar image for lubub55
#9 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: We really don't have to think that much into the fight to see who wins with a blade. Dooku was beaten by Anakin, who is Vader's inferior in almost every way. Relevant to melee combat at least. So if pre-Vader Anakin was able to best Dooku, it's only logical that a stronger, more skilled and experienced Anakin with looser morals and the armour to take up sabre swings will win decisively.

Avatar image for dark-sith123
#10 Edited by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:

Movie-wise Anakin is far better than Vader. He's far less clunky and his feat of defeating Dooku is better than losing to Luke. George Lucas also refers to the prequels as the 'prime' of the Jedi and Vader as an old, clunky robot.

Avatar image for lubub55
#11 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Even if the prequels were the prime of the Jedi which they obviously were, it doesn't mean Anakin was better there. Vader was never clunky. Even in his suit he could react to blaster fire and was at no clear speed disadvantage against Luke, who could deflect multiple bolts at once and turn around and precisely cut speeders going past him. Vader's definitely slower on his feet, but his combat speed should be good enough and there's no reason his skill would have decreased. Considering his change in mindset, it makes much more sense for him to be better.

Avatar image for empressofdread
#12 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader.

Avatar image for erkan12
#13 Edited by Erkan12 (8319 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkdefender said:

Darth Vader hasn't shown the ability to block lightning

Dooku should stomp everyone who didn't show the ability to block lightning if we use the same logic. Vader is experienced and well trained enough to block Dooku's lightning. And it's not like Dooku is a Force lightning beast, he just caught inexperienced Anakin off-guard for once.

@necromancer76 said:

Agree with Dooku. Vader was slow and clunky in the movies alone when he fought Luke, although that's probably due to filming limitations.

He is fast enough in the Rogue One.

Loading Video...
Avatar image for necromancer76
#14 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: True, but he was facing stationary rebel soldiers trapped behind a door.

Avatar image for saiyatoniansage
#15 Posted by SaiyatonianSage (295 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: True, but he was facing stationary rebel soldiers trapped behind a door.

True even then he's not moving that much going forward, his wrist is doing most of the work lol.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#16 Edited by rogueshadow (29159 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

Agree with Dooku. Vader was slow and clunky in the movies alone when he fought Luke, although that's probably due to filming limitations.

Just pretend that he actually fought like this:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Moderator
Avatar image for anonymousjedi
#17 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku in ep. 2 and 3 is more impressive than Vader in 4-6.

Avatar image for erkan12
#18 Edited by Erkan12 (8319 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@erkan12: True, but he was facing stationary rebel soldiers trapped behind a door.

He was pressing forward against at least 4 blasters, it requires very fast reflexes to do that, walking towards them and deflecting them at the same time.

Avatar image for richard96
#19 Posted by Richard96 (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

Only movies? Dooku sweeps

Avatar image for payneintheass
#20 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11134 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#21 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk why anyone would think this is a good idea. Dooku is the obvious answer if it's strictly movie versions.

Avatar image for lubub55
#22 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk why anyone would think this is a good idea. Dooku is the obvious answer if it's strictly movie versions.

How?

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#23 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

Idk why anyone would think this is a good idea. Dooku is the obvious answer if it's strictly movie versions.

How?

  • Knocking out AotC Anakin with lightning
  • Clowning both AotC Anakin and Kenobi
  • Holding off Yoda in a duel
  • Telekinetically dominating and throwing RotS Kenobi

Vader's feats,strictly going by the movies are nothing more than beating trapped fodder rebel soldiers, struggling against an older Kenobi and getting tagged by ESB Luke.

Avatar image for emperorb777
#24 Posted by Emperorb777 (10967 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even remotely fair battle.

Avatar image for lubub55
#25 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for erkan12
#26 Edited by Erkan12 (8319 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@lubub55 said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

Idk why anyone would think this is a good idea. Dooku is the obvious answer if it's strictly movie versions.

How?

  • Knocking out AotC Anakin with lightning
  • Clowning both AotC Anakin and Kenobi
  • Holding off Yoda in a duel
  • Telekinetically dominating and throwing RotS Kenobi

Vader's feats,strictly going by the movies are nothing more than beating trapped fodder rebel soldiers, struggling against an older Kenobi and getting tagged by ESB Luke.

  • AotC Anakin is nothing to Vader, and Dooku caught AotC Anakin off-guard. Then he didn't stomp him in a one-on-one duel
  • Never did that in 2 v 1, never stomped either of them. I don't see how AotC Kenobi could match with Vader as well.
  • Yoda was holding back against his ''former padawan'' a lot. The guy just learned that Dooku turned to the dark side on the same day. Don't expect from him to go all out as he did against Sidious.
  • Nice, Vader shook the operating room at the end of RotS, and choked someone via hologram.

The only legit feat here is TKing Kenobi, and I don't think Dooku is superior to Vader in the Force.

Ben Kenobi has the same skills that RotS Kenobi had. Fodder or not, fodder Droids killed multiple Jedi Knights in Geonosis by using the sheer number, those soldiers were heavily outnumbered Vader, still he dispatched them easily. ESB Luke was probably amped due to believing that Vader killed his father, similar to TPM Kenobi amplification against Maul.

We already know Vader has a massive advantage in strength against Dooku, Vader is at least as strong as RotS Anakin if not stronger. He ripped off that metal binders at the end of RotS.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#27 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
  • AotC Anakin is nothing to Vader, and Dooku caught AotC Anakin off-guard. Then he didn't stomp him in a one-on-one duel

My point was that it was potent enough to knock-out Anakin. Obviously Vader isn't getting knocked out but he isn't walking through that either, and it would at least temporarily affect him or slow him down.

  • Never did that in 2 v 1, never stomped either of them. I don't see how AotC Kenobi could match with Vader as well.

I wasn't saying that clowned both simultaneously, but the ease with which he out-dueled both, even repeatedly taunting Kenobi in the process is better than any dueling feat Vader has, at least in the movies.

  • Yoda was holding back against his ''former padawan'' a lot. The guy just learned that Dooku turned to the dark side on the same day. Don't expect from him to go all out as he did against Sidious.

Nothing implies that Yoda was holding back "a lot" going by the movies alone. All we see is that they duel evenly for a time, Dooku realizes he is outclassed and flees.

  • Nice, Vader shook the operating room at the end of RotS

Dooku hurling those large metal objects with a gesture towards Yoda and crushing the base of a huge metal pillar is just as impressive imo

The only legit feat here is TKing Kenobi

Yeah, but it's better than any TK feats that Vader has done in a combat setting in the movies. Movie Vader's best TK feat in a duel was throwing those metal lunchboxes at Luke and hurling his lightsaber in RotJ.

Ben Kenobi has the same skills that RotS Kenobi had.

Going strictly by the movies doesn't really bode well for Ben. RotS Kenobi is visibly faster,has better reflexes, and is more agile. Vader was even taunting him that his powers had grown weak.

fodder Droids killed multiple Jedi Knights in Geonosis by using the sheer number, those soldiers were heavily outnumbered Vader, still he dispatched them easily.

But Vader was deflecting bolts while facing in a single direction while the Jedi were surrounded.

We already know Vader has a massive advantage in strength against Dooku, Vader is at least as strong as RotS Anakin if not stronger. He ripped off that metal binders at the end of RotS.

Yeah, but brute strength alone wouldn't be enough. We don't know if Vader is more skilled than Anakin who was seen stomping Cin Drallig with one hand while choking a Jedi with the other.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#28 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

Just pretend that he actually fought like this:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This is only from a trailer, no?

Can't wait for the whole fight to be released.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#29 Posted by rogueshadow (29159 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Same. Honestly more excited for that than any of the upcoming films. That scene is my headcanon for how that fight went now, lol.

Moderator
Avatar image for dark-sith123
#30 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Dookie.

Avatar image for erkan12
#31 Edited by Erkan12 (8319 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@erkan12 said:
  • AotC Anakin is nothing to Vader, and Dooku caught AotC Anakin off-guard. Then he didn't stomp him in a one-on-one duel

My point was that it was potent enough to knock-out Anakin. Obviously Vader isn't getting knocked out but he isn't walking through that either, and it would at least temporarily affect him or slow him down.

I can see him walking through it, this is the guy that survived Mustafar and took Palpatine's full powered Lightning and still threw him to the hole.

@dawn_of_ages said:
  • Never did that in 2 v 1, never stomped either of them. I don't see how AotC Kenobi could match with Vader as well.

I wasn't saying that clowned both simultaneously, but the ease with which he out-dueled both, even repeatedly taunting Kenobi in the process is better than any dueling feat Vader has, at least in the movies.

Ok, but how is that an argument against Vader? Ben Kenobi was obviously more skilled than his AotC counterpart and Vader gained a slight advantage against him. AotC Kenobi would be no match for Vader as well. AotC Anakin would be even worse, considering he is just the same guy with much lesser skills and power, experience.

@dawn_of_ages said:
  • Yoda was holding back against his ''former padawan'' a lot. The guy just learned that Dooku turned to the dark side on the same day. Don't expect from him to go all out as he did against Sidious.

Nothing implies that Yoda was holding back "a lot" going by the movies alone. All we see is that they duel evenly for a time, Dooku realizes he is outclassed and flees.

Yoda : ''Powerful you've become Dooku, the dark side I sense in you.''

The guy didn't even know his former padawan turned to the dark side until that moment, why would he go all out against his former padawan and why would he wanted to kill him?

Yoda : ''Fought well you've, my old padawan''

He still talks about Dooku is being his old padawan during the duel. Isn't this obvious?

This is a very emotional little creature that almost gets a heart attack when he felt the dying Jedi during Order 66, he just accepted Anakin's apprenticeship, just because he gets emotional due to Qui-Gon's death.

Don't expect from him to use the same powers against Dooku that he used against Sidious. That's all I am saying, completely different situations.

@dawn_of_ages said:
  • Nice, Vader shook the operating room at the end of RotS

Dooku hurling those large metal objects with a gesture towards Yoda and crushing the base of a huge metal pillar is just as impressive imo

Ok. But I don't see it any better than choking someone with the Force from another Spaceship. Vader should be still more powerful due to hype and feats.

@dawn_of_ages said:

The only legit feat here is TKing Kenobi

Yeah, but it's better than any TK feats that Vader has done in a combat setting in the movies. Movie Vader's best TK feat in a duel was throwing those metal lunchboxes at Luke and hurling his lightsaber in RotJ.

Without any gesture. Dooku, Maul, they all used gestures when they threw objects against someone, Vader on the hand, did that without hand gesture.

@dawn_of_ages said:

Ben Kenobi has the same skills that RotS Kenobi had.

Going strictly by the movies doesn't really bode well for Ben. RotS Kenobi is visibly faster,has better reflexes, and is more agile. Vader was even taunting him that his powers had grown weak.

True, but Kenobi never agreed with him. Countered him with ''I shall become more powerful.'' line.

Vader always tried to taunt him, even in the RotS.

''Don't make me kill you.''

''You will try''

''You underestimate my power.''

@dawn_of_ages said:

fodder Droids killed multiple Jedi Knights in Geonosis by using the sheer number, those soldiers were heavily outnumbered Vader, still he dispatched them easily.

But Vader was deflecting bolts while facing in a single direction while the Jedi were surrounded.

True, but Jedi had another Jedi to take help in that arena, they stood back to back. Vader was alone.

@dawn_of_ages said:

We already know Vader has a massive advantage in strength against Dooku, Vader is at least as strong as RotS Anakin if not stronger. He ripped off that metal binders at the end of RotS.

Yeah, but brute strength alone wouldn't be enough. We don't know if Vader is more skilled than Anakin who was seen stomping Cin Drallig with one hand while choking a Jedi with the other.

That was the main reason why Anakin defeated Dooku. Strength. We know he is very skilled, he has sharp reflexes, and he is massively stronger than Dooku.

Avatar image for proteusxmanrxis
#32 Posted by ProteusXManRxis (4444 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for marvelfan1992
#33 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2281 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for yousufkhan1212
#34 Posted by YousufKhan1212 (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Dooku.

Avatar image for gothamciti
#36 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

With strictly movie feats, Dooku due to his more impressive dueling skill, TK, and force lightning.

Avatar image for anonymousjedi
#37 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio
@erkan12 said:
@dawn_of_ages said:
@erkan12 said:
  • AotC Anakin is nothing to Vader, and Dooku caught AotC Anakin off-guard. Then he didn't stomp him in a one-on-one duel

My point was that it was potent enough to knock-out Anakin. Obviously Vader isn't getting knocked out but he isn't walking through that either, and it would at least temporarily affect him or slow him down.

I can see him walking through it, this is the guy that survived Mustafar and took Palpatine's full powered Lightning and still threw him to the hole.

@dawn_of_ages said:
  • Never did that in 2 v 1, never stomped either of them. I don't see how AotC Kenobi could match with Vader as well.

I wasn't saying that clowned both simultaneously, but the ease with which he out-dueled both, even repeatedly taunting Kenobi in the process is better than any dueling feat Vader has, at least in the movies.

Ok, but how is that an argument against Vader? Ben Kenobi was obviously more skilled than his AotC counterpart and Vader gained a slight advantage against him. AotC Kenobi would be no match for Vader as well. AotC Anakin would be even worse, considering he is just the same guy with much lesser skills and power, experience.

@dawn_of_ages said:

  • Yoda was holding back against his ''former padawan'' a lot. The guy just learned that Dooku turned to the dark side on the same day. Don't expect from him to go all out as he did against Sidious.

Nothing implies that Yoda was holding back "a lot" going by the movies alone. All we see is that they duel evenly for a time, Dooku realizes he is outclassed and flees.

Yoda : ''Powerful you've become Dooku, the dark side I sense in you.''

The guy didn't even know his former padawan turned to the dark side until that moment, why would he go all out against his former padawan and why would he wanted to kill him?

That is like saying 'why would Dooku go all out against his former master?' - Means nothing.

Yoda : ''Fought well you've, my old padawan''

He still talks about Dooku is being his old padawan during the duel. Isn't this obvious?

Right. So Dooku has referred to Yoda in the novel as: 'My old master'... does that mean he held back too?

This is a very emotional little creature that almost gets a heart attackwhen he felt the dying Jedi during Order 66, he just accepted Anakin's apprenticeship, just because he gets emotional due to Qui-Gon's death.

I am struggling to understand how this has to do with anything here.

Don't expect from him to use the same powers against Dooku that he used against Sidious. That's all I am saying, completely different situations.

@dawn_of_ages said:

  • Nice, Vader shook the operating room at the end of RotS

Dooku hurling those large metal objects with a gesture towards Yoda and crushing the base of a huge metal pillar is just as impressive imo

Ok. But I don't see it any better than choking someone with the Force from another Spaceship. Vader should be still more powerful due to hype and feats.

@dawn_of_ages said:

The only legit feat here is TKing Kenobi

Yeah, but it's better than any TK feats that Vader has done in a combat setting in the movies. Movie Vader's best TK feat in a duel was throwing those metal lunchboxes at Luke and hurling his lightsaber in RotJ.

Without any gesture. Dooku, Maul, they all used gestures when they threw objects against someone, Vader on the hand, did that without hand gesture.

@dawn_of_ages said:

Ben Kenobi has the same skills that RotS Kenobi had.

Going strictly by the movies doesn't really bode well for Ben. RotS Kenobi is visibly faster,has better reflexes, and is more agile. Vader was even taunting him that his powers had grown weak.

True, but Kenobi never agreed with him. Countered him with ''I shall become more powerful.'' line.

Vader always tried to taunt him, even in the RotS.

''Don't make me kill you.''

''You will try''

''You underestimate my power.''

@dawn_of_ages said:

fodder Droids killed multiple Jedi Knights in Geonosis by using the sheer number, those soldiers were heavily outnumbered Vader, still he dispatched them easily.

But Vader was deflecting bolts while facing in a single direction while the Jedi were surrounded.

True, but Jedi had another Jedi to take help in that arena, they stood back to back. Vader was alone.

@dawn_of_ages said:

We already know Vader has a massive advantage in strength against Dooku, Vader is at least as strong as RotS Anakin if not stronger. He ripped off that metal binders at the end of RotS.

Yeah, but brute strength alone wouldn't be enough. We don't know if Vader is more skilled than Anakin who was seen stomping Cin Drallig with one hand while choking a Jedi with the other.

That was the main reason why Anakin defeated Dooku. Strength. We know he is very skilled, he has sharp reflexes, and he is massively stronger than Dooku.

And he is just better in every way.