Darth Vader vs Count Dooku

@kilius:

Lightning will not work as long as Vader has his weapon, and I don't see how Vader could be disarmed by Dooku for a majority.

@nfactor1995: I've given my thoughts regarding this match in this thread before, and my opinion is largely the same: Vader takes sabers, Dooku takes Force, and Vader takes all-out.

Don't you mean the other way around?

@azronger: Dooku takes Force? Reasons? Yet Vader takes all-out? I assume this means the you see the gap in saber skill as larger than the gap in Force power, yes?

@thesithmaster: Vader's not immune to having his guard slip. Dooku blasting Vader with lightning would be largely opportunistic, but it's not unreasonable that he could pull it off.

Vader takes them all.

I can't see a way for the Count to win. Even his lightning isn't enough.

@richard96:

How does Dooku beat Prime Vader for a majority? Vader is only slightly less skilled, but his form/physical advantage more than make up for this. Not to mention, Vader being, by a good and noticeable margin, more powerful than the Count.

There are numerous quotes of Legends Vader continuously growing in power. He was killing people left and right without any trouble and The hindrance and "good in him" was exclusive to Luke alone, and even then he was still trying to kill Luke during the earlier part of the duel in RotJ.

Granted, even if he stopped growing in power it doesn't necessarily mean that he has stagnated.

What does it approve? If you're referring to Vader musing that he's grown more powerful than Anakin he also later claims post-ANH he's still growing more powerful in a canon comic. I don't see how it matters anyway since this Legends Vader who's been established numerous times to still be growing in power up to RotJ.

I can already hear the clicks across the keyboard of Ahsoka's ever loyal disciple.

Still though, I find it odd that they had to make SWR Maul weak and humbled compared to his old self. He's been through worse and even spent over a decade as a very mentally unstable half robot spider eating nothing but junk yet he returns more powerful than ever. Now he should've spent his time in isolation plotting his revenge, presumably training and even studying the Dark Side for a dozen years and and they bring him back only to make him to get his ass kicked. I feel like there's unused potential. Even his death was poorly done and wasn't worth the hype IMO.

@frankenmidget:

I can already hear the clicks across the keyboard of Ahsoka's ever loyal disciple.

Yes... I can feel the fear, the anger... well, Lady Tano must know this: Rebels Maul is her superior, and her beloved disciple doesn't even hold a candle to me.

Still though, I find it odd that they had to make SWR Maul weak and humbled compared to his old self.

Yeah, they made him more of a Yoda type of guy, he grew weaker but became wiser and had more theoretical/philosophical knowledge. It's weird, but by showings, yeah... SWR Maul is weaker than even TPM Maul.

He's been through worse and even spent over a decade as a very mentally unstable half robot spider eating nothing but junk yet he returns more powerful than ever.

Well, Maul didn't immediately return more powerful. Per Sith Hunters, Maul was restored to his former power, meaning TCW S4 Maul was roughly equal to TPM Maul. I'd say slightly inferior, given how he is still out of shape to have a duel and how he's still adapting to his new legs. He only becomes more powerful than his TPM self around TCW S5.

Now he should've spent his time in isolation plotting his revenge, presumably training and even studying the Dark Side for a dozen years and and they bring him back only to make him to get his ass kicked.

That's interesting, although bringing him back to get his ass kicked is kinda unused potential- though Filoni would love to make that happen. I think it would be interesting that he teamed up with Obi-Wan, then they fight Vader and Sidious. Ol' Ben vs Vader (I know this kinda contradicts ANH, but still interesting to see) and Maul vs Sidious. Then, somehow, Ben Kenobi is injured, and then he's distracted by Stormtroopers or some sh!t. Then Maul is left alone. Maul enters a Oneness-like state, and somehow manages to hold off the Sith Lords long enough for Kenobi to escape. Then he finally dies, unleashing a final Repulse that injured the Sith- thus explaining why Vader is in the bacta tank for Rogue One. Or perhaps they could have made him team up with Ezra, plan an ambush on Sidious and have a fight much like Ventress and Savage vs Dooku, with the master, in the end, emerging the battered and bruised victor.

But really, I don't know why they put Maul in the show just for his plans always to fail and then get his ass kicked by Ben.

I feel like there's unused potential.

Same here.

Even his death was poorly done and wasn't worth the hype IMO.

I actually really liked Maul's death, but they shouldn't have hyped it to make it seem like another prolonged duel.

@nfactor1995: It's because Vader's only offensive Force ability is Telekinesis. And while he may be more powerful, he's not powerful enough to ragdoll Dooku, so his TK is useless. It's not an inherently lethal ability, so the only way Vader could do any harm with it is if he could penetrate Dooku's barriers, which he can't, so he can't do anything to Dooku either, really. A prime example of a similar situation would be Dooku's fight with Yoda, where the latter was forced to engage in a lightsaber duel in order to win. While significantly more powerful than the Count, he wasn't powerful enough to ragdoll him, so his power advantage was rendered moot. Vader is in the same situation here, and the best he can hope for is a stalemate, like in Yoda's case.

Unfortunately for Vader, Dooku possesses Lightning - which is an inherently lethal ability designed with the clear intent to hurt or kill - and while Vader wouldn't go down easily, he would go down eventually, and the only thing Vader can really do here is delay the inevitable.

Vader's saving grace is his lightsaber, with which he could block Dooku's Lightning and level the plain field. As such, Force abilities become irrelevant to this fight, and the outcome is decided solely by way of the blade, which I believe Vader wins.

@frankenmidget:

I can already hear the clicks across the keyboard of Ahsoka's ever loyal disciple.

I genuinely don't understand why people consider authoritative and canonical hype to be 'wankery'?

Do you have an actual argument here, or are you really just going to bandwagon with the erkan tiers that make up Maul's fan club?

@azronger: Nothing is preventing Vader from blasting the Count around. Which on it's own could injure him thus leading to a lapse in defense to execute a ragdoll. Even relative equals have been shown to be able to knock each other around. Vader is noticeably superior to Dooku.

I see no reason why (ala Kenobi vs Ventress in the TCW movie) Vader could not simple crack his ribs with a force blast and proceed from there. The gap between the Count and Vader is very much comparable to said gap from the example.

The Yoda comparison doesn't really hold when you consider his "knowledge and defense only" mentality. Since Yoda is unable to ragdoll Dooku, that would leave him to thrash him with TK. An aggressive application Yoda would not wish on his former student when he could simply take him with his lightsaber.

Vader has tanked disintegration level lightning from Starkiller before adding additional insulators. I don't see how the Count is winning via this method. Even then Vader might be able to deflect via TK. We know he is aware of the ability due to his earlier holding of the Theta storm and even one-armed Mace was able to defend himself from Palp to a degree. Should push come to shove I don't see why Vader could not defend himself this way.

@azronger:

Unfortunately for Vader, Dooku possesses Lightning - which is an inherently lethal ability designed with the clear intent to hurt or kill - and while Vader wouldn't go down easily, he would go down eventually, and the only thing Vader can really do here is delay the inevitable.

Because he is weak, or because Dooku's lightning is extremely powerful? I guess it's the latter.

Anyway, just like Vader can't penetrate Dooku's active barriers, neither should the latter be able to do so with Lightning, even if it is a more lethal ability than TK. Vader can also use a Force shield to repel it, especially if he is more powerful than Dooku, and given that astronomically weaker beings like AOTC Kenobi had no trouble blocking it with a saber, Vader would logically be able to do so as well with little effort. Dooku would give Vader trouble with lightning only if he finds a lapse in his defenses, and even that wouldn't be enough, imho.

Sabers wise, Vader might win, though I wonder if Dooku would be susceptible to his strength (I assume you're referring to that when you say Vader wins, aren't you?), given that he is pretty strong himself and pushed Yoda himself back in a bladelock. Still, Vader's strength would probably bridge the small gap between him and Dooku, making them equals in combat.

@azronger

Well, Vader does possess abilities like Choke, which he is shown to be a prodigy of. And as in so many examples across the PT era, you don't need to be vastly more powerful than someone to choke them. Dooku isn't choking someone noticeably more powerful than him successfully( and by that I mean, maintaining the choke for any length of time), but Vader definitely can. It takes a lot more effort to counter choke once the opponent has gotten hold of you, so your only hope to counter if someone chokes you is to be more powerful than them. Vader has a clear cut advantage here, but the opposite is true for Dooku. It won't be easy but Vader does have a way to win through here.

I also fail to see why lightning is so relevant here. Vader can casually absorb it on his sabers, and being more powerful than the Count, he should be able to deflect it if push came to shove. Granted I don't seem to recall him showing the ability to deflect lightning, but logically, he should be capable of doing so, since he spent almost twice the time studying the Banite Sith powers as Dooku did, in addition to Sidious actually wanting him to be extremely powerful( as RoDV states), in addition to having noticeably more sheer power than the Count. Also, he has shown the power to deflect lightsaber blades while infinitely pre-prime, and Dooku's lightning most definitely cannot match lightsaber blades( as we've seen with several examples). I actually don't see Dooku getting anywhere with lightning at all. In fact, Vader would be at an advantage, since it is laughably easy for him to deflect with his sabers. I would presume in the midst of a lightning barrage, Dooku wouldn't really focus on defense. A quick choke from Vader, and it's over. He definitely can decide the contest with the force.

Ultimately in a force battle, it will come down to who can outlast the other, endure the storm and seize the initiative. My money's on Vader for that for pretty obvious reasons.

Yes, it was because of Luke, but not exclusive to Luke duel, it was exclusive to this time of period, because of Luke.

Vader : ''You were right about me Luke, tell your sister you were right.''

And what Luke was right about ?

Luke : ''I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father. It's the name of your true self you've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate.''

Luke hindered him in this time of period, Vader was thinking about his previous Jedi life a lot, he sees his younger self on Luke, he was in the conflict. He wasn't focused enough. So if he has to face off with Dooku, in this time of period when he was in the conflict, then Dooku could've won.

But when there was no Luke (which is between RotS-ANH) then Vader is the favorite one.

LotS stated that Vader never felt more powerful in the Force before since he wasn't focused on dark side like he did in this time of period before.

''When man and machine were one, he no longer felt the absence of his legs or arms, the pain of his flesh, but the hate remained, and the rage still burned. Those, he never relinquished, and he never felt more connected to the Force than when his fury burned.

Yoda once had told him that fear led to hate and hate to suffering. But Yoda had been wrong. Fear was a tool used by the strong to cow the weak. Hate was the font of true strength. Suffering was not the result of the rule of the strong over the weak, order was.

By its very existence, the Force mandated the rule of the strong over the weak; the Force mandated order. The Jedi had never seen that, and so they'd misunderstood the Force and been destroyed. But Vader's Master saw it. Vader saw it. And so they were strong. And so they ruled.''

--- Lords of the Sith

It's directly related with his connection to the dark side of the Force. And post-ANH, he was getting closer and closer to the light side which hindered him a lot.

Vader was electrocuted by Palpatine in the first issue of the new Darth Vader comic. This is more evidence that Vader isn't quite as weak to lightning as ROTJ made us believe, but rather that Sidious was simply putting the absolute entirety of his power into the lightning that caused Vader's suit to shut down before he was thrown over the ledge. I don't think Dooku's lightning is too much for Vader to handle at all and he would beat Dooku a pretty solid majority.

@lordofthelight: @zapan871: @greysentinel365: Oh jeez, I'm getting triple penetrated.

This seems pretty clear to me. No way can Dooku take the majority against Vader. In a way, Vader would be the perfect counter to Dooku. Vader 8/10... on a bad day...

@lordofthelight: As I said, I'll respond here, so let's get started.

Vader is canonically above Dooku. That leaves each of their respective scalings and feats to take into account and honestly, Vader's are a lot better. Dooku's elevation as I said earlier, makes him powerful enough to not be stomped by Yoda, but nothing else. That still leaves a lot of room for Vader.

Excuse me, canonically above? I assume you're referring to the Sedriss quote:

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

-- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

If that's the case, the quote doesn't state that he was the strongest apprentice Sidious ever had after Vader, so it might very well be referring to him after Vader's death, especially since it's written in a source that by its own name seems to be referring to the Dark Empire time period or to the time of the GE as a whole. Granted, even if you don't apply it directly to Dooku, there might be a way to put Sedriss above the Count if you scale him from Cronal, but that powerscaling is a bit sketchy.

Besides, the Emperor viewed Sedriss as unworthy of being a Sith apprentice, which would put him below Dooku.

As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice.

-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

Granted, that quote is a bit exaggerated because Sedriss is far from moderate in power, and this might have been before Sidious amped him. Still, if he can amp people to the point of being Dooku level, I wonder why choosing a Sith apprentice in the first place, given that he could amp any adept to be that strong.

One thing to point out, is that ROTJ Vader simply being in the passive presence of Sidious is more powerful than KF Vader. I know that Sidious is a nexus of the force, but his passive presence shouldn't amp Vader by anything significant. Indeed, the novel too indicates this, implying that most of the power was from within. Which should leave ROTJ Vader as very close to KF Vader, someone who is more powerful than Zonakin, who has pretty solidly humbled Dooku.

Actually, I find the notion itself that Vader was amped questionable. That's because Palpatine is not a place but a Force user, and arguably the most masterful in the mythos on top of that, so the only way he would amp Vader is by being unable to control himself. Otherwise why amp Vader when he clearly wanted Luke to win given that he would gain an apprentice with greater potential in that case? In fairness, however, Sidious himself said this in DE:

"Flesh does not easily support this great power."

-- Dark Empire

Which implies the nexus within him is quite difficult to control due to its power, but still, that was referring to his clones, and that was a significantly superior version of Sidious anyways.

But assuming he was amping Vader, why would the amp be negligible? All Vader says is that his greater power came from within, and resonated with the Emperor's wave of darkness, which means he grew stronger than he was, in TESB and SOTE, and then was further enhanced by the Emperor. I really don't get how all of that is related to KF Vader though.

Another indication of this is that ANH Vader is more powerful than Mustafar Vader, and becomes far more powerful by ESB, and continues to grow until ROTJ. Mustafar Vader can't have been hindered to such an extent from KF Vader as to indicate any kind of significant disparity between KF Vader and ROTJ Vader, especially since he has spent more time soaking on the dark side. Stuff like this, put ROTJ and KF Vader as pretty close, which is more than enough to put him noticeably above Dooku.

Now, that's already more quantifiable. However, Knightfall Vader is a guy who would be able to stomp Kenobi at least in the Force, which Mustafar Vader couldn't do. Unless you wish to argue Kenobi is "just" inside KF Vader's ragdoll zone, I don't see how the difference isn't significant, given the huge emotional hindrance Mustafar Vader was experiencing. And if you believe ROTJ Vader is far above ANH Vader, yet still below KF Vader, even if slightly, then logically the difference would have to bepretty huge. Which means Mustafar Vader is likely below Dooku.

Though of course ROTJ Vader isn't hugely below KF given that the latter's superior can't stomp him. Still, that doesn't mean he is just slightly below him.

Apart from all this, Dooku's scaling kind of pales in comparison to Vader's( Cronal, Gethzerion, Joruus, Ben, Karness Muur, Starkiller, Galen). His scalings aren't as decisive as Vader's, or Mace's. I am stating a more-than-noticeable gap, because logically, there shouldn't be a gap wider than that( although it is possible). But Vader has impressed me a lot more. His substantially greater durability, willpower and endurance (especially the kind of willpower we see from him in ROTJ) should only increase the gap.

Imo, the only guy who could support that conclusion is C'baoth, who could indeed possibly be argued to be on Tyranus' level. But even then that depends on the difference between 9 ABY Luke and DE Luke, especially after the latter's training under Sidious. Bearing in mind that we're dealing with people capable of growing vastly in short amounts of time here, e.g. Anakin growing vastly in six months, (though in fairness the latter was fighting non stop during the Outer Rim Sieges) so it's not that easy to make assessments on how impressive 9 ABY Luke is just because there is a mere 1 year gap. All other people are probably below Dooku.

His substantially greater durability, willpower and endurance (especially the kind of willpower we see from him in ROTJ) should only increase the gap.

Actually, I think Vader willing himself back from the dead decades before his prime is another willpower feat that is worth mentioning I have never seen another Sith lord replcating it before (chronologically, I mean), tbh. Regardless, Maul has greater endurance and durability than Dooku as well, but he clearly is below the Count, so I don't see why bring this up.

@echostarlord117:

8/10 on a good day for Vader is probably too much, but on a bad day... that's exaggerating a bit.

What do you think gives Vader so many wins over Dooku?

@thesithmaster: He's better in every way (stronger, tougher, smarter, more skilled, more versatile, more powerful in the Force, etc.), he actually knows how Dooku fights while Dooku wouldn't be familiar with Vader, and his one of his favored lightsaber forms, Form V, is the perfect counter to Form II.

Are we talking current canon? Then vader, going by feats, is supposed to be second only to Sidious and Yoda. Actually, I'd even give him a good chance against CW/ROTS Yoda, as in his novels and comics he's that good. Immediately after taking his first few steps in the suit, he force pushes the emperor into a wall, tanks his lightning until his armor is smoking, then just walks it off, a few hours later receives multiple blaster shots with no significant damage, and proceeds to murder entire squads of troopers.

Later in his career he defeats Ahsoka, faces an army of about a thousand rebels troopers supported by tanks, fighters and bombers and stomps through them alone, and performs a whole bunch of other unbelievable feats for a canon character. Reading some of this made me think they pulled a legends power level char and just dropped him into canon with almost no nerfing.

Dooku, in similar situations, usually escapes or surrenders.

@zapan871

Excuse me, canonically above? I assume you're referring to the Sedriss quote:

The thing is, Palpatine didn't have many apprentices after Vader. I think, since my knowledge of the era after ROTJ and before YJK is sketchy, that Sedriss was the only one( aside from DE Luke but you can hardly include Luke in the criteria). The quote most probably, thus, refers to "after" as in chronological power levels. That is to say, Vader is the strongest, and "perhaps" Sedriss comes after that.

Count Dooku is likely above Sedriss though. But Sedriss's feat on Ossus would suggest some sort of comparability between him and Exar Kun, and that is enough to make the "perhaps" kind of viable.

There is also Jeremy Barlow's quote putting Vader above Dooku, though that's hardly to be displayed as WoG but still.

As for the "Sith apprentice" thing, it is unfair on Sedriss actually, since Palpatine might very well, and likely means "the" Sith Apprentice, or the Banite apprentice who actually has a shot at beating the master or at least has comparable potential.

Actually, I find the notion itself that Vader was amped questionable. That's because Palpatine is not a place but a Force user, and arguably the most masterful in the mythos on top of that, so the only way he would amp Vader is by being unable to control himself. Otherwise why amp Vader when he clearly wanted Luke to win given that he would gain an apprentice with greater potential in that case? In fairness, however, Sidious himself said this in DE:

Fair.

The amp wouldn't be negligible per se, but it certainly wouldn't be anything significant given your argument, and the fact that Vader referred to the power as it shimmered from within( his words imply that . So most of that power was his own.

It is related to KF Vader because Vader as of this time is more powerful than he has ever been, which includes him in his KF state.

Now, that's already more quantifiable. However, Knightfall Vader is a guy who would be able to stomp Kenobi at least in the Force, which Mustafar Vader couldn't do. Unless you wish to argue Kenobi is "just" inside KF Vader's ragdoll zone, I don't see how the difference isn't significant, given the huge emotional hindrance Mustafar Vader was experiencing. And if you believe ROTJ Vader is far above ANH Vader, yet still below KF Vader, even if slightly, then logically the difference would have to bepretty huge. Which means Mustafar Vader is likely below Dooku.

Actually, Mustafar Vader was stomping him in the force initially. Forget the force, he was administering a worse beating to Obi Wan in sabers than Anakin was administering to Dooku, and this is despite Obi Wan's innate familiarity to Anakin and Soresu being a lot well suited to face Djem So than Makashi. It required Obi Wan 2 power boosts in the middle of the fight itself to even it out with him and actually start competing.

It is a fair suggestion to say that Obi Wan is "just" inside KF Vader's ragdoll range. ROTS itself was a period of growth for him. He receives multiple power boosts throughout the novel. After Dooku's fight, he receives one, in which he becomes the first Jedi ever to cut through Palpatine's cosmic nexus and feel the full power of the light which was fleeting, but he also notes that the darkness of the galactic DS nexus has lightened around him considerably and that's clearly his for keeps; something he clearly wasn't experiencing before. And this is on(over) Coruscant and near Palpatine, where the darkness was extremely thick by ROTS.

In his fight with Grevious, he has completely devoted himself to the light, and let go of everything. That increases a light sider's connection to the force. That might explain why in the novel, he literally decimates Grevious and is able to deflect omnidirectional blaster fire from tens of thousands of droids. Another situation like that is present after he discovers Order 66 fully on Bail's ship. So, yes, Obi Wan being "just" inside KF Vader's domination range would not be unseemly.

There is actually nothing binding Vader to be necessarily below KF Vader, unlike someone like Dooku, who "is" necessarily inferior to either. Indeed, if there is no amp from Palpatine in ROTJ, then he is above KF Vader. I was just arguing that they are close either way. To say that there is some great difference between them is clearly absurd.

Imo, the only guy who could support that conclusion is C'baoth, who could indeed possibly be argued to be on Tyranus' level. But even then that depends on the difference between 9 ABY Luke and DE Luke, especially after the latter's training under Sidious. Bearing in mind that we're dealing with people capable of growing vastly in short amounts of time here, e.g. Anakin growing vastly in six months, (though in fairness the latter was fighting non stop during the Outer Rim Sieges) so it's not that easy to make assessments on how impressive 9 ABY Luke is just because there is a mere 1 year gap. All other people are probably below Dooku.

I was talking about Vader's scaling relative to Tyranus's. Dooku doesn't really have as impressive a scaling as Vader does. Not even close. Aside from the "not being ragdolled by Yoda" thing, which is null anyways since Vader is canonically better.

Also, Luke's growth can't be compared to Anakin, because Anakin's training is vastly better. Actually, it is infinitely better. You may notice that Luke doesn't grow at the same pace after ROTJ despite having his father's potential. This is perfectly natural because he was technically on his own, and there is only so much you can learn on your own. He didn't even have a normal training to begin with. Yoda only taught him the bare basics. He managed to become a Jedi Master only due to his sheer potential.

As for the Luke and C'Baoth thing, Filoni has said that deflecting lightning with sabers itself is a special power( which the likes of Savage didn't know). Luke struggled so badly because he actually didn't know this power( presumably) and was using his talent to compensate.

Nevertheless, C'Baoth can be argued to be Dooku's superior in the force.

Actually, I think Vader willing himself back from the dead decades before his prime is another willpower feat that is worth mentioning I have never seen another Sith lord replcating it before (chronologically, I mean), tbh. Regardless, Maul has greater endurance and durability than Dooku as well, but he clearly is below the Count, so I don't see why bring this up.

I meant these attributes will only enhance the gap.

Bump.

@lordofthelight: Sorry for being late, I just remembered this thread and didn't receive a notification (or missed it, whatever).

The thing is, Palpatine didn't have many apprentices after Vader. I think, since my knowledge of the era after ROTJ and before YJK is sketchy, that Sedriss was the only one( aside from DE Luke but you can hardly include Luke in the criteria). The quote most probably, thus, refers to "after" as in chronological power levels. That is to say, Vader is the strongest, and "perhaps" Sedriss comes after that.

Actually, Palpatine had his adepts as well. But yes, that's what I was saying. Which means that Vader has no direct quote putting him above Dooku, only more indirect implications.

Count Dooku is likely above Sedriss though. But Sedriss's feat on Ossus would suggest some sort of comparability between him and Exar Kun, and that is enough to make the "perhaps" kind of viable.

There is also Jeremy Barlow's quote putting Vader above Dooku, though that's hardly to be displayed as WoG but still.

This is Legends we're discussing, and Palpatine's opinion would be more reliable if you want to use Canon sources, imo. And regardless, that feat is an amped one, not really what one should use for Sedriss. That's impressive for Luke though, given that he repelled the attack. None of that points to a noticeable gap, anyway.

As for the "Sith apprentice" thing, it is unfair on Sedriss actually, since Palpatine might very well, and likely means "the" Sith Apprentice, or the Banite apprentice who actually has a shot at beating the master or at least has comparable potential.

Not really, you can be worthy of being a Sith and still be unable to succeed your master, otherwise Vader wouldn't be worthy either. Not that being "a moderate Force user" leaves much room to interpretation anyway, especially when Sidious could have chosen Sedriss as a placeholder like he did with Dooku. Of course, as I said, this might be before Sedriss improved, given that the quote in question has no date.

The amp wouldn't be negligible per se, but it certainly wouldn't be anything significant given your argument, and the fact that Vader referred to the power as it shimmered from within( his words imply that . So most of that power was his own.

It is related to KF Vader because Vader as of this time is more powerful than he has ever been, which includes him in his KF state.

It might not be significant, but the problem is that the quote in question would put him at least on level with Knightfall Vader. Because if the amp is negligible, then that would still leave room for Rotj Vader being above his former self. Besides, Vader views Anakin as another person entirely, so he would only referring to himself as a Sith, and I do recall various quotes saying that Darth Vader was only truly born once he got the suit.

There is also the problem of release date. While there is no direct rule establishing that sources have an expiration date, apllying older accolades to newer characters creates some problems, e.g. Viatiate and Kun. I question if it is a fair way to go. At least when, per Lucas' own intentions, Vader is supposed to be below his former self (you know, that stuff about the PT being supposed to be Force users at their peak), etc.

Actually, Mustafar Vader was stomping him in the force initially. Forget the force, he was administering a worse beating to Obi Wan in sabers than Anakin was administering to Dooku, and this is despite Obi Wan's innate familiarity to Anakin and Soresu being a lot well suited to face Djem So than Makashi. It required Obi Wan 2 power boosts in the middle of the fight itself to even it out with him and actually start competing.

Ah but then, ANH is below Mustafar Vader in sabers, given that he wasn't beating Ben (who is also below Rots Kenobi in skill) that harshly, not to mention the familiarity argument goes both ways. Kenobi was also hindered for part of the fight, and he got free of Vader's choke anyway, and even disarmed the latter with electronic manipulation. Not to mention he stalemated him in a Force push contest. How is that a stomp Force wise?

It is a fair suggestion to say that Obi Wan is "just" inside KF Vader's ragdoll range. ROTS itself was a period of growth for him. He receives multiple power boosts throughout the novel. After Dooku's fight, he receives one, in which he becomes the first Jedi ever to cut through Palpatine's cosmic nexus and feel the full power of the light which was fleeting, but he also notes that the darkness of the galactic DS nexus has lightened around him considerably and that's clearly his for keeps; something he clearly wasn't experiencing before. And this is on(over) Coruscant and near Palpatine, where the darkness was extremely thick by ROTS.

Really? That seems a fantastic feat. Can you post it please?

In his fight with Grevious, he has completely devoted himself to the light, and let go of everything. That increases a light sider's connection to the force. That might explain why in the novel, he literally decimates Grevious and is able to deflect omnidirectional blaster fire from tens of thousands of droids. Another situation like that is present after he discovers Order 66 fully on Bail's ship. So, yes, Obi Wan being "just" inside KF Vader's domination range would not be unseemly.

So I assume you think that Dooku can't legitimately ragdoll him.

There is actually nothing binding Vader to be necessarily below KF Vader, unlike someone like Dooku, who "is" necessarily inferior to either. Indeed, if there is no amp from Palpatine in ROTJ, then he is above KF Vader. I was just arguing that they are close either way. To say that there is some great difference between them is clearly absurd.

I was saying there is a great difference between ANH/Mustafar Vader and KF Vader, actually, at least if we accept the notion that ROTJ Vader grew significantly. I'm curious as to where you rank Mustafar Vader, though. Close to Dooku to say the least, judging from your argument.

I was talking about Vader's scaling relative to Tyranus's. Dooku doesn't really have as impressive a scaling as Vader does. Not even close. Aside from the "not being ragdolled by Yoda" thing, which is null anyways since Vader is canonically better.

You mean that the people he gets scaling from are much more impressive than the ones Dooku gets his own scaling from? That's probably true, though there isn't a ragdoll difference in Vader's case.

Also, Luke's growth can't be compared to Anakin, because Anakin's training is vastly better. Actually, it is infinitely better. You may notice that Luke doesn't grow at the same pace after ROTJ despite having his father's potential. This is perfectly natural because he was technically on his own, and there is only so much you can learn on your own. He didn't even have a normal training to begin with. Yoda only taught him the bare basics. He managed to become a Jedi Master only due to his sheer potential.

Training or not, we're still dealing with the Skywalker family here. And considering that even Savage has grown in little time without training, chances are a Skywalker would do better in more time (i.e. one year as opposed to a few months or weeks).

Not to mention he grew a lot after TESB without any master to train him.

Also keep in mind that he was trained by Sidious, albeit briefly.

As for the Luke and C'Baoth thing, Filoni has said that deflecting lightning with sabers itself is a special power( which the likes of Savage didn't know). Luke struggled so badly because he actually didn't know this power( presumably) and was using his talent to compensate.

You know, it's curious that you would bring this up, because that's a point in C'baoth's favor. Luke was capable of deflecting Lightning from Rotj Sidious with the Force, and granted, that was a holding back Sidious, but we're talking about the most powerful Sith ever.

And yet, a much more powerful version of Luke had trouble deflecting C'baoth's lightning with a lightsaber, even to the point of being damaged by it without being stricken directly. Bearing in mind that while deflecting lightning with a lightsaber might not be a feat everyone can do, repelling it with the Force is "near impossible" or "a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi masters". I think that says a lot about the potency of C'baoth lightning, even when comparing him to Dooku. And indeed, I think he is better in this area.

This is to say that Luke has no training problems when it comes to Lightning deflection, which is also a metter of mastery not just raw power.

The main problem is TK: Luke lacks overly impressive Telekinetic feats that would compare him to Dooku. Also, all of that would put Vader far above Dooku given his presumed OT growth. No that I necesaarily disagree with him being noticeably above the Count, I just question some of the means used to reach the conclusion.

I meant these attributes will only enhance the gap.

How? Granted, I heard some arguments about willpower on KMC, but I'm not entirely convinced.

Dooku should have no problem winning this. He has every advantage. He is faster and more agile then Vader who is taxed by his suit, he has equally impressive telekinesis and force lightning that will kill Vader's life support if he hits even once, and he has advantage in style as well. Vader can't possibly counter Dooku's makashi like he did when he was young and agile, his suit restricts him to using only heavy and powerful styles that Dooku perfectly counters.

@thoromdil:

How is Dooku winning with no problem against a foe nearly as skilled as him, much stronger, and more powerful?

OT, Vader wins.

lmao

And Vader hasn't beaten opponents more agile than he is?

A pre-prime Vader has tanked disintegration-level lightning.

Based on what?

I think most of the stances being held here are respectable. The stance I'm having difficulty sympathizing with is the idea of Vader being almost on par with Tyranus as a swordsman. Not that I think it's impossible, but I do wonder if there's concrete material for that. How big do we judge his improvement from ANH to ESB to be? We know that by ANH he's not in the Count's league, so there has to be a colossal improvement up to RotJ to make up for that. Which isn't altogether impossible to imagine, but again I'm looking for evidence to support such a big growth.

Vader should win.

In terms of technical skill, he's matured a lot over Anakin, though he has lost some of his ferocious speed and pure Djem-So talent that made Anakin such a threat in Lightsaber combat.
He's a lot more reserved and defensive than Anakin once was, which might actually play into Dooku's hand more, since Dooku only really seemed to struggle when forced onto being defensive, which normally required a great deal of superior speed and power anyways.
See Yoda and Anakin. Even Grievous has pressured him and by Dooku's admission Mace could possibly defeat him. All of which are extremely fast and ferocious/overwhelming fighters. Kenobi on the other hand, despite being close in technical skill and whilst able to effectively defend against Dooku's attacks and considered a threat had no chance of pressuring Dooku and I don't find it suprising that perhaps is why Dooku found it so easy to either land a physical strike or force attack on him.

Vader will be having a harder time than Anakin against Dooku.

When it comes to the force, Vader is more powerful and I doubt the Count will make use of his lightning. But I do wonder how much Vader will be willing to fall back on the force. He often focuses on combating with blades when it comes to rival force users.

Physically, Vader should be as strong as he once was, if not more, but I doubt strength alone is enough to overwhelm the Count. Anakin had speed and talent and fury to back it up, none of which Vader seems to have. The count will be faster, and will try and lead combat and probably will end up doing so.

However, I do wonder how effective the Counts usual method of dissecting his foes by slipping in cuts past their defenses will be, considering Vader can tank direct blows to some areas of his armor.
I think the count will find his modus operandi of disabling his foes rather ineffective.

Also, Vader's endurance is nigh unending, wheras the count appears to require breaks in combat to reinvigorate himself.

It really depends on how much Vader is willing to press forward during the latter end of the fight and if he manages to legitimately push Dooku on his back foot.
However, I'm also struggling to see how Dooku would achieve a legitimate victory/majority via his usual methods.

That being said, while he is more defensive, Vader has pressed more agile opponents before with skill and strength, as well as stringing in force blasts. I think this is a fight between celebrated duelists, but eventually Vader will likely decide to make a move on the offensive and that's when he'll take advantage.

There is the argument for Dooku having greater technical skill, but frankly Vader holds a lot of advantages that are going to put odds in his favour.

Strength, Power, Endurance, Durability (Saber resistant), Knowledge of Dooku's style, at least Comperable technical Skill.

Vader's victory certainly won't be as flashy or overwhelming as an enraged Anakin's was, but his advantages will add up and I think he'll eventually take the Count down in a good contest.

@shootingnova:

wasn't it stated vader grew far more formidable between anh and esb?

@kbroskywalker:

I think Shootingnova's question is 'How much more formidable?' and the follow-up 'Is there evidence to suggest that?'

@emperor339

It is actually stated that he grew far more formidable between ANH and ESB, both in lightsaber mastery and in the force. There is a direct quote for that.

and he still had three years to do it again between esb and rotj

@lordofthelight:

for the sedriss quote it seems fairly obvious to me that the after is chronological here

If Vader's prime is now Rebels, which is debatable, Dooku wins 6-7/10.

Dooku wins

I fail to understand how Dooku wins a majority.

@kbroskywalker: Tis not me questioning his increase in power.

The Insider issue with the Fightsaber article explains (some) of Vader's growth as a swordsman throughout the movies, as you are well aware. Vader could actually be close to Dooku's league by ANH in lightsaber skill, as he had already developed his multi-form lightsaber style.

@biodynamicape: Yeah, it mentions he grew immensely between ANH and ESB. I was hoping we could get a more specific gauge on how much he grew, though.

Close to Dooku's league - but how big are you defining a league to be? Given that Vader at this point is most comparable to ANH Obi-Wan, a pale shadow of RotS Obi-Wan, never mind Dooku.

@zapan871:

Really? That seems a fantastic feat. Can you post it please?

I'll drop it since Lord seems occupied.

The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.

There are other parts of him here, as well; there is nothing here that is not a part of him, from the scuff mark on R2-D2's dome to the tattered hem of Palpatine's robe, from the spidering crack in one transparisteel panel of the curving view wall above to the great starships that still battle beyond it.

Because this is all part of the Force.

Somehow, mysteriously, the cloud that has darkened the Force for near to a decade and a half has lightened around him now, and he finds within himself the limpid clarity he recalls from his schooldays at the Jedi Temple, when the Force was pure, and clean, and perfect. It is as though the darkness has withdrawn has coiled back upon itself, to allow him this moment of clarity, to return to him the full power of the light.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Obi-Wan cuts through Palpatine's cosmic nexus. Something only Yoda has been able to do.

Also a timeline note. Obi-Wan states that the force is like it is in his schooldays. i.e. before Plagueis died.

As we know, at the time of Plagueis' death a massive shift in the force occurred, Obi-Wan is basically undoing that for himself, which speaks to a ridiculous level of power.

I'd go as far as to say this is his best single feat, period.

@greysentinel365:

great feat, hard to quantify though, the megalith remains his most usable feat for the purpose of battle forums

@greysentinel365: Mmm, that reminds me of what Tenebrous' master did. If we take that at face value of course. Also, forgive the perhaps stupid and reaching remark, but the quote doesn't really specify if this was Kenobi's doing, though. The cloud might have lightened temporarily on its own. Indeed, Kenobi himself said the dark side cloud "misteriously" lightened, as if it was something beyond his control.

But regardless of the validity of this feat, glad to see Kenobi is being viewed more and more as an extremely powerful Force user. The days where every Sith worth their salt could stomp him seem finally long gone.

@zapan871

Actually, Palpatine had his adepts as well. But yes, that's what I was saying. Which means that Vader has no direct quote putting him above Dooku, only more indirect implications.

Still don't see why. It's as I said, the "after" could be a reference to power comparisons as well, instead of time.

Could you post the full quote or words surrounding it? The context of that may become more clear.

This is Legends we're discussing, and Palpatine's opinion would be more reliable if you want to use Canon sources, imo. And regardless, that feat is an amped one, not really what one should use for Sedriss. That's impressive for Luke though, given that he repelled the attack. None of that points to a noticeable gap, anyway.

You mean Barlow's quote? Don't see why it can't be used for composite versions. After all, Filoni's quotes are.

Sedriss used alter environment and Ood used the same energies of Ossus that he did to defeat Exar Kun. Ood was the amped one here, actually.

Not really, you can be worthy of being a Sith and still be unable to succeed your master, otherwise Vader wouldn't be worthy either. Not that being "a moderate Force user" leaves much room to interpretation anyway, especially when Sidious could have chosen Sedriss as a placeholder like he did with Dooku. Of course, as I said, this might be before Sedriss improved, given that the quote in question has no date.

But Vader's potential even after being burnt was still comparable to Sidious's. Maul's own potential would be comparable to Sidious's. This would be the kind of standard that Sidious would expect Sith apprentices to have. Clearly Dooku wasn't one for it, since he was a lot older than Sidious and substantially inferior in regards to the force.

It might not be significant, but the problem is that the quote in question would put him at least on level with Knightfall Vader. Because if the amp is negligible, then that would still leave room for Rotj Vader being above his former self. Besides, Vader views Anakin as another person entirely, so he would only referring to himself as a Sith, and I do recall various quotes saying that Darth Vader was only truly born once he got the suit.

I never said it would be negligible, just that it is not significant( presumably).

Vader views Anakin as another person, but I am pretty sure he wouldn't view the person that slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple as Anakin. He clearly viewed himself as Vader from the moment Sidious anointed him.

Also, this is tangential, and a red herring. There is no need to go into this level of depth, because frankly, this is wordplay. There can easily be arguments constructed against this.

There is also the problem of release date. While there is no direct rule establishing that sources have an expiration date, apllying older accolades to newer characters creates some problems, e.g. Viatiate and Kun. I question if it is a fair way to go. At least when, per Lucas' own intentions, Vader is supposed to be below his former self (you know, that stuff about the PT being supposed to be Force users at their peak), etc.

Yes, but the same can be said of Bane. It's just the matter of the number of sources that are taken into consideration, as well as the overall feats and context. For example, the ROTS junior novel states Obi Wan and Anakin to be the best warriors of the Jedi Order. Yet another source states Mace Windu to be the best Jedi of the order. What puts Yoda above them all, is the number of sources he has, and the feats, as well as creator's intent, and the character portrayal and consistency. Vitiate has many more quotes( as opposed to Kun's singular quote), and vastly better feats( even taking Kun's rituals into account).

Lucas's intentions of the era and such are debatable, yes( and open to interpretation as well), but he never made a direct comparison to ROTJ Vader with Anakin. He merely said that Vader couldn't overthrow the emperor from then on. Also, the "shadows of their former selves" would be retconned many times in Legends, forget canon, so I really don't think that's applicable.

Ah but then, ANH is below Mustafar Vader in sabers, given that he wasn't beating Ben (who is also below Rots Kenobi in skill) that harshly, not to mention the familiarity argument goes both ways. Kenobi was also hindered for part of the fight, and he got free of Vader's choke anyway, and even disarmed the latter with electronic manipulation. Not to mention he stalemated him in a Force push contest. How is that a stomp Force wise?

The thing is, Obi Wan wasn't hindered in a traditional sense. He just wasn't willing to deal an offensive strike, but his defenses were taking an extremely strong battering. Vader blasts him to a wall once, and pins him using the force( and his hands) another time. His desperation in the fight is quite evident, and is much above the desperation he feels in any other fight( except against Dooku on Geonosis). He notes that it is only his familiarity against Anakin's fighting style that allows him to even survive. Yet after a boost, Obi Wan is able to defend against Vader's blasts quite well.

He didn't do them by virtue of power. Both were results of surprise, and he even admitted that EM wouldn't work twice on Vader. This is in stark contrast to later, where he is actually able to match Vader's sheer power and strength head on. Initially, only his innate familiarity with Vader's style helped him even survive. The passages that show the initial confrontation highlight this very well. Obviously on comparing to Dooku, he was taking a worse beating here. A much worse beating.

The thing is, resolving your emotions and confronting them, or letting them go increases a Jedi's connection to the light side. Even Sith use this method. Sidious straight up asked Anakin soon-to-be-Vader to confront his emotions in ROTS, and than Vader notes that his power had increased. Forget that, this is even a thing in canon, where perfecting your spirit increases your connection to the force and all that.

Really? That seems a fantastic feat. Can you post it please?

It is directly in ROTS. After when he confronts Dooku and regains consciousness, and lets the force flow through him fully. Just before confronting Grevious on the IH. I believe Grey has posted the feat.

He lets the force flow through him fully and notes that more power of the light is available to him from then on. Actually cutting through the shroud of the dark side and feeling the absolute "full power" of the light isn't permanent though. But that's still incredibly impressive. It is a trait of his, letting go fully and surrendering himself to the force( which is something basic). Except this time, more of the force' energies are available to him. In the process, he may have cut through Palpatine's nexus, and felt the force in its purest form temporarily. Imagine it like Plagueis's feat on Naboo.

So I assume you think that Dooku can't legitimately ragdoll him.

Actually, it's not that simple. You need to use the words "ragdoll" more carefully. To summarize, if there is full blown force battle, Dooku would be at least somewhat strained to take him out. In fact, there is a quote that states that Dooku had expended a lot of energy into choking Obi Wan, and we know from Obi Wan's perspective that he was caught off guard, and only actually tried to counter once Dooku had him firmly in the choke hold. Too late to do anything about it, since breaking out of the choke hold is incredibly hard. I am assuming this is where Dooku would be strained to keep it on, and just threw him away. Obi Wan couldn't do anything about that either, since aside from his disadvantageous position, it's more to do with the fact that he is straight up inferior to Dooku as a force user.

There is a pretty significant disparity between Dooku and Obi Wan. Exponential? No. Drastic? No. If Obi Wan uses the force offensively, I find it rather difficult to believe that he wouldn't pressure Dooku even slightly( a pre-prime Obi Wan on Oba-Diah just staggered a few steps back, despite using the force defensively). I put Dooku right in the middle of Obi Wan and Yoda, like a mathematical progression. Substantial disparities in both cases, but obviously not enough to fodderize the other should the other attempt a proper and adequate counter.

At the very least, this should be true of post-Mustafar Obi Wan( the one who was giving a head on confrontation to Vader after 2 level up's), who is all but above the version Dooku faced.

TL:DR-There is quite a significant difference between them. But nothing exponential.

I was saying there is a great difference between ANH/Mustafar Vader and KF Vader, actually, at least if we accept the notion that ROTJ Vader grew significantly. I'm curious as to where you rank Mustafar Vader, though. Close to Dooku to say the least, judging from your argument.

Not sure. Mustafar Vader's placement could be anywhere. You must understand, this isn't as simple as ABC logic. Even the force. Mustafar Vader opts to use the traditional method of "hit them till they give up" and gives Obi Wan a battering of force blasts and strikes. Obi Wan is able to confront such power head on late in the fight( he is almost fodderized early in the fight), but the case with Dooku is a lot different. From his own perspective, being choked by Dooku involved a lot more than just sheer power, as I have explained earlier. Whereas Vader's barrages would have a lot more profound effect on Dooku( since his fighting style is much more aggressive than Anakin's, as said in the ROTS feature) due to his susceptibility to the like. This is as much a case of rock-paper-scissors, perhaps even more, than a case of ABC logic.

You cannot base a linear relationship here. Many do it to simplify their analysis of characters fighting, but they are a lot more complicated than we generally imagine. Deriving a relation based on power is a lot harder than it looks. As it stands, Mustafar Vader most certainly isn't very far from Dooku. I am not sure just where he stands w.r.t. Dooku in terms of power. Obviously sabers is a different story.

Training or not, we're still dealing with the Skywalker family here. And considering that even Savage has grown in little time without training, chances are a Skywalker would do better in more time (i.e. one year as opposed to a few months or weeks).

The Skywalker brand itself doesn't guarantee a demigod status. Leia for one, and she trained for decades. And Savage was a veritable scrub, before Talzin's "darkest magic" made him the monster that he was known for. It was basically a continuous enhancement, and a very powerful one at that ( darkest magic doesn't leave much else to conclude). And power growths are not linear. I believe I have already described a few factors about that above.

And Savage was training. With Dooku and then with Maul. Not to mention, Savage was trained in fighting before in the nightsister village, as well as in some aspects of the force. His training would be vastly more than Luke, for sure.

Not to mention he grew a lot after TESB without any master to train him.

Because he still had much to learn. More importantly, he had to learn the basics fully at least. I would presume growth here would be pretty rapid, by common sense. By ROTJ, he has learnt the basics and has completed his training, but he is still essentially a rookie. He should have had no business confronting Vader still and only manages to do so due to his near/equal to "Chosen One" potential which compensates for his enormous lack of experience and laughable training, his periodic gravitation to the dark side which serves as an even better conduit for that potential, and Vader holding back, arguably.

You know, it's curious that you would bring this up, because that's a point in C'baoth's favor. Luke was capable of deflecting Lightning from Rotj Sidious with the Force, and granted, that was a holding back Sidious, but we're talking about the most powerful Sith ever.

And yet, a much more powerful version of Luke had trouble deflecting C'baoth's lightning with a lightsaber, even to the point of being damaged by it without being stricken directly. Bearing in mind that while deflecting lightning with a lightsaber might not be a feat everyone can do, repelling it with the Force is "near impossible" or "a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi masters". I think that says a lot about the potency of C'baoth lightning, even when comparing him to Dooku. And indeed, I think he is better in this area.

This is to say that Luke has no training problems when it comes to Lightning deflection, which is also a metter of mastery not just raw power.

The main problem is TK: Luke lacks overly impressive Telekinetic feats that would compare him to Dooku. Also, all of that would put Vader far above Dooku given his presumed OT growth. No that I necesaarily disagree with him being noticeably above the Count, I just question some of the means used to reach the conclusion.

Well, there is Luke shaking a Star Destroyer when he would be vastly weaker than his ROTJ version. Scaling from that would put him at another level entirely. There is also him Tk'ing Palpatine in DE, although simply Tk'ing means almost nothing. And deflecting the blast on Ossus.

Also, by the time Luke arrived, the Ysalamiri may have been removed but it would still take time for C'Baoth to be at full power, so he was likely hindered there.

How? Granted, I heard some arguments about willpower on KMC, but I'm not entirely convinced.

I mean, aside from Vader being more-than-noticeably more powerful than the Count, his willpower would only give him a greater advantage. It increases a dark sider's connection to the dark side canonically.

Also, Dooku simply can't beat him in the force. Vader has an answer for almost if not everything he will get from Dooku, but the reverse is not true at all.

And as far as indirect implications go, Sidious feared Vader's potential in TRoDV, and feared that reawakening Vader's power would be a peril to him. We know that he mostly has scorn for Dooku, relative to himself of course. Honestly, there are a lot of indirect implications. Another being Palpatine's opinion of him in Jedi vs Sith, which is actually kind of direct.

Vader should win. While his potential and actual power was severely compromised following Mustafar, his far superior strength, comparable lightsaber skill and speed, and comparable if not superior mastery of the Force should allow him to pull a win more often than not, albeit in a very good fight.

I just used the word ''league'' because you did, don't put too much stock into its exact meaning. I don't entirely agree with the comparison to ANH Obi-Wan, because ANH Obi-Wan certainly isn't on Galen Marek's level, whom Vader fought closely with (I don't remember the details). There is some inconsistency regarding that, and I really prefer the out-of-universe explanation (that movie~Vader and TFU/DL:TRoDV~Vader were ''created'' differently) to simply saying that Marek sucks, when he clearly doesn't (Juyo pracititioner, requiring high-level mastery of multiple forms, for one). There probably isn't that much of a difference between Vader and Dooku, in neither lightsaber skill nor Force mastery. Of course, I haven't watched any of Rebels (or kept up with any relevant source material, really), so I'm unaware of any developments to Vader's character and abilities since then.

@lordofthelight: Nice points. It's good that we're moving away from linear comparisons and ragdolls require nothing more than a power disparity. Just saying, though, Leia received minimal and on-and-off training up until the end of Dark Nest I: The Joiner King, which is when she actually trains to be a Jedi Knight.

I don't really conflate Rebels Vader with Legends Vader since that's exclusively canon. Rebels Vader is supposed to be prime Vader. On a strictly canon basis, I see nothing wrong with Vader being on par with Dooku. Legends is where it's considerably harder to prove.

Listing Galen as a Juyo practitioner is fine but doesn't exactly place him above even relative nobodies like Vrook Lamar, who can claim identical credentials. Certainly not comparable to Dooku, who has repeatedly beaten pre-TCW Grievous (a practitioner of all forms including Juyo, along with monstrous physicals) with ease. Not to mention that Dooku's a factually superior swordsman to any Jedi who has come before him (bar Yoda and Mace), including the likes of Revan and Meetra Surik who would clown Vrook.

And using feats doesn't exactly move Galen any closer to Dooku (struggling with Kota, struggling with the Desolous simulacrum whilst amped, struggling with Shaak Ti, struggling with a lone Shadow Guard). He improved since those instances, but again I see no reason to put him anywhere near Dooku. If anything Galen's own record provides stronger evidence that a rival of his, like Vader, would only be so much above a "shadow" of RotS Obi-Wan.

Also, if you choose that approach, then you'll have to ditch the "vast improvement" thing that Fightsaber peddles. If so, then he's stuck at Galen's level, which even with some generosity on my part, I find hard to place in a similar vein to Dooku's. I'm open to arguments for moving Galen up, though.