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#1 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

-Darth Vader from Episode 6.

-Count Dooku from Episode 3.

-Fight takes place where Vader dueled Obi-Wan in Episode 4.

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#2 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader, I'd say.

I mean he killed Dooku back in the day and should still be able pull such a thing off.

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#3 Posted by Samuel L. Jackson (11 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll take Vader.

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#4 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader wins because I like him more.

[I know next to nothing about SW, you might want to keep that in mind. I'm thinking about rewatching the prequels though. ]

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#5 Posted by cattlebattle (17680 posts) - - Show Bio

Count Dooku wins via Force Lightning

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#6 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

Count Dooku wins via Force Lightning

I would think that would fail so long as Vader has his weapon.

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#7 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: If Vader Could block the Lightning. He could win. Plus his skills and power has grown since Ep.3.

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#8 Posted by cattlebattle (17680 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@cattlebattle said:

Count Dooku wins via Force Lightning

I would think that would fail so long as Vader has his weapon.

True, I completely forgot about the Light Saber absorption factor.....The thing is, I'm no Star Wars expert, Silver posted some amazing scans from Vader the other day where he was hunting down Jedi and offing them with massive badassery, although his actual feats in the movies were nothing, if anything he was slow and able to be beaten by someone who started studying the Force about 5 years prior to their encounter (Luke)...So I have no idea
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#9 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle:

All my knowledge comes from the movies.

*Flexes*

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#10 Posted by jeanroygrant (20442 posts) - - Show Bio

vader

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#11 Posted by cattlebattle (17680 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@cattlebattle: If Vader Could block the Lightning. He could win. Plus his skills and power has grown since Ep.3.

wait...I always thought his skills were hindered because of his mechanical body parts and such.....his full potential was never realized..
 
Star Wars stuff is so confusing
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#12 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like to hear JediX's take on this, just because I am partially undecided about this myself. Vader is more powerful and versatile than Dooku, but Dooku has impressed me slightly more as a duelist. However, Djem So, which is Vader's preferred lightsaber form, can be very difficult to defend against for a Makashi adept, which Tyranus is. So that could level a potential edge in saber proficiency or even possibly grant the edge to Vader. Vader being more powerful could tip the scales in his favor further, as he could employ powers such as Telekinesis (he has utilized TK in several of his duels) and possibly Alter Environment (as he did in his duel against Luke on Bespin). On the other hand, Dooku's Lightning has proven powerful enough to kill multiple Kiffar soldiers concurrently. If he manages to land a hit with it, that could slow Vader enough for him to win. I sincerely doubt Dooku would one-shot Vader with Lightning, as his Lightning has never shown to be especially powerful, and Vader has resisted electrical attacks before (such Purge: Seconds to Die when he withstood a high voltage electrical discharge from a net, for instance). But if the Count's Lightning hit, it would have an effect, even if not a fatal one. Now, Vader does have a lightsaber he can of course reflect it with. So, unless Dooku connects it the way he did against Sora Bulq at close range when Sora lost one of his lightsabers, Vader should be sufficiently defended.  

I might give Vader a small majority, but I'm not completely sure yet.

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#13 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader tanked force lightning for quite a while in episode 6. It killed him sure, but not before he offed the person hitting him.

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#14 Posted by cattlebattle (17680 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@cattlebattle:

All my knowledge comes from the movies.

*Flexes*

me too!!!
 
Expanded what now??
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#15 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Yeah I know.....Well i suppose your right.

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#16 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:

Vader tanked force lightning for quite a while in episode 6. It killed him sure, but not before he offed the person hitting him.

This is true. And Palpatine's Lightning>>>>>>>>Dooku's Lightning.
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#17 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Vader tanked force lightning for quite a while in episode 6. It killed him sure, but not before he offed the person hitting him.

This is true. And Palpatine's Lightning>>>>>>>>Dooku's Lightning.

Yeah, I'm pro Vader for now( then again I don't have EU knowledge on Dooku at all)

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#18 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Although Vader has proven to be quiet effective in the suit. Especially on Kessel.

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#19 Posted by cattlebattle (17680 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@cattlebattle: Although Vader has proven to be quiet effective in the suit. Especially on Kessel.

Yeah, I don't know really...I love Star Wars, I just don't really care for the Expanded Universe, not saying a lot of the stories don't seem intriguing. I imagine he was quite powerful even after he was in his uit, going by the movies though, he didn't do anything absurdly impressive
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#20 Edited by SpidermanWins (4142 posts) - - Show Bio

NOT TAKING SIDES YET.....but I believe it was said (ad/or implied as well) in theRise and Fall of Darth Vader that Vader is unable to utter or absorb force lightning due to his Cybernic form and loss of Midi Chlorians. (blocking it may be possible, though, I believe force lightning is different than a blaster bolt) The one time he did and may have been capable of absorbing it to my knowledge was when he came in contact with the Kaiburr Crystal and that didn't work out as planned. Also, would force lightning compromise his suit and life support and all that like at the end of the last battle? Or is it not really electricity so that wouldn't happen? Or is Dooku maybe not powerful enough to do that?

Again.. not taking sides. If anything I'm probs for Vader

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#21 Posted by Azrael66 (278 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader would take this. By episode 6 he's killed countless Jedi and amassed a number of years as a galactic ruler with Palpatine as Master.

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#22 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:

@Silver2467 said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Vader tanked force lightning for quite a while in episode 6. It killed him sure, but not before he offed the person hitting him.

This is true. And Palpatine's Lightning>>>>>>>>Dooku's Lightning.

Yeah, I'm pro Vader for now( then again I don't have EU knowledge on Dooku at all)

Dooku has some nice feats of his own but primarily in lightsaber skill. As with Maul, Dooku was more of a duelist than a Force practitioner. Vader seemed not to be particular toward either one. That said, Vader is more powerful than Dooku based on feats; so listing showings from Dooku in that regard is pointless. However, their dueling feats should be compared with one another. 
 
Dooku has: 
  • held his own against Yoda (he lost in every encounter he had with Yoda though even while amped)
  • sparred as an equal with and beaten Mace Windu
  • beaten Obi-Wan and Anakin consecutively
  • beaten Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously
  • beaten Quinlan Vos
  • beaten Grievous several times
  • beaten Asajj Ventress

Vader has:
  • beaten the Dark Woman
  • beaten Celeste Morne
  • beaten Roan Shryne
  • fought as an equal with Darth Maul
  • fought as an equal with Luke 
  • fought as an equal with Obi-Wan (whose skills had increased since Mustafar)
  • effortlessly beaten five or six Jedi, two to three at a time in succession (basically a gauntlet of Jedi)
  • beaten four out of eight Jedi; one of them killed another; the last three defeated Vader by combining their powers to hurl objects at him (this was shortly after RotS; so Vader was still new to his armor and substantially grew in power and skill later on)
  • beaten countless other individual no-name Jedi and Dark Jedi (Bol Chatak, Sha Koon, Sardoth, Hylon, etc.)
  
Honestly, the characters that Dooku has fought have their own respective feats to credit their skills, while many (but not all) of the opponents Vader has dueled are virtually featless, which is largely why I consider Dooku a slightly better swordsman. But as I said, Djem So might even that out.
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#23 Posted by spartan92 (2804 posts) - - Show Bio

vader breaks dooku's hip

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#24 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

I give great credit too dooku for this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lgO1UTjNnJc

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#25 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

I give great credit too dooku for this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lgO1UTjNnJc

Eh. That looks more like a low showing to me. Savage disarmed Dooku, and although Dooku landed quite a few hits with Lightning, Savage TK'd him and Ventress.  
 
I am really behind in that show; so my knowledge of how skilled Savage is is limited. But if anything, Dooku should have been able to beat both. Tyranus' track record in fighting two opponents simultaneously has always been good (Tholme and Sora; Anakin and Obi-Wan).
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#26 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: i thought it was good because right after this Savage was able to hold his own against kenobi and skywalker for a short amount of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OCuJwz0DQDA

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#27 Posted by Typhenstein (467 posts) - - Show Bio

Vadar all the way!

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#28 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@Silver2467: i thought it was good because right after this Savage was able to hold his own against kenobi and skywalker for a short amount of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OCuJwz0DQDA

It looks more like they just defended while he attacked. They never even returned a counterattack even after he stopped attacking them.
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#29 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Uh...Acutally your right. Althoug Dooku is still a very skilled duelist. Im mean look at those feats you listed out. I think if Vader can counter and withstand Dooku's lightning he could win.

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#30 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@Silver2467: Uh...Acutally your right. Althoug Dooku is still a very skilled duelist. Im mean look at those feats you listed out. I think if Vader can counter and withstand Dooku's lightning he could win.

I was just saying it was a low showing and therefore nor particularly valid. I know very well what Dooku can do. He is a favorite of mine, as is Vader. 
 
Just for reference, here are the showings I was referring to with Grievous, Mace, Sora/Tholme, and Quinlan Vos. Anakin and Obi-Wan, everyone has seen that (Anakin and Obi-Wan have had other duels with Dooku as well but still lost); same with Yoda.  
 
Dooku has beaten Grievous on a number of occasions. 

Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

He has beaten Mace Windu. 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook  
 
He casually handles Quinlan Vos. 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144589-new_picture__0_.jpg  
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144591-new_picture__1_.jpg  
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144592-new_picture__2_.jpg 
 
He beats Sora Bulq and Tholme. 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144593-new_picture__3_.jpg 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144594-new_picture__4_.jpg 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2144595-new_picture__5_.jpg 
 
 
One a sidenote: LOL @ that kick Dooku throws at Quin.
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#31 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Oh yes I see. Dooku was impressive. Most impressive. He might edge Vader in lightsaber combat and Force Lightning is very useful. He was also impressive against Obi-Wan and Anakin in Ep.3. I really like that Force move he did on Obi-Wan to knock him out. I think it's called Force Grip but It could be called something else. And when Dooku defeated Mace I think it was in sparring sessions when Dooku was a jedi wasn't it. Also I must do more research on Force Grip I remember someone telling me about a year ago that it was a Sith Force power only like Force Lightning. But my friend was wrong i think. And when you and I talked about Mace vs Dooku before we agreed there were equal but doesn't that prove Dooku's better sorry for going off topic there mate.

And that kick helarious :P

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#32 Posted by OmegaDynasty (10500 posts) - - Show Bio
@spartan92 said:

vader breaks dooku's hip

More like cuts off his hand for revenge. lol
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#33 Posted by Stompa (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm what stops Dooku from locking blades with Vader and then use lightning in the infight? If that dosen´t work i think Vader takes it due to having more raw force power and his cyborg body enhances his strength wich is even better with him using Djem So.

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#34 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stompa said:

Hmmm what stops Dooku from locking blades with Vader and then use lightning in the infight? If that dosen´t work i think Vader takes it due to having more raw force power and his cyborg body enhances his strength wich is even better with him using Djem So.

1. Because that would mean moving one of his hands off his blade and getting overpowered by Vader.

2. As I pointed out Vader can tank quite a bit of force lightning from a stronger Sith than Dooku.

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#35 Posted by The Devil Tiger (1278 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader. He had enough resilience to take the lightning of the emperor, then throw him in the heart of the deathstar and he killed Dooku when he was young. Maybe not easy as it seems, but he will kill Dooku.

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#36 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@Silver2467: Oh yes I see. Dooku was impressive. Most impressive. He might edge Vader in lightsaber combat and Force Lightning is very useful. He was also impressive against Obi-Wan and Anakin in Ep.3. I really like that Force move he did on Obi-Wan to knock him out. I think it's called Force Grip but It could be called something else.

It is Force Grip, and Force Grip is generally a dark side power. However, I really do agree with the point that some writers have made that how and why a Force power is used is more of a determining factor of what side of the Force it belongs to than anything else. For instance, Luke used Force Choke in The Courtship of Princess Leia, but he did so to prevent a young Nightsister from speaking her spells and attacking him. If she attacked him, he would have to defend himself and hurt/kill her. He wanted to avoid that. So instead he Choked her and asked her to surrender. In that situation, is Choke still a dark side power? I believe not.
 

And when Dooku defeated Mace I think it was in sparring sessions when Dooku was a jedi wasn't it. And when you and I talked about Mace vs Dooku before we agreed there were equal but doesn't that prove Dooku's better sorry for going off topic there mate.

They were equals. When the sourcebook says that Dooku has beaten Mace, I think it just means he had the ability to, not that he did in every single duel. In a Star Wars Insider issue (forget which), it was said that Dooku was equal with Mace in the Order. So Dooku could beat Mace; Mace could beat Dooku. 
 
@Decoy Elite said: 

1. Because that would mean moving one of his hands off his blade and getting overpowered by Vader.

Exactly. Dooku used Lightning against Sora Bulq in their duel, but he disarmed him first (so basically, he beat Sora in the duel and with the Force, just for good measure).
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#37 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Ah yes, I see. I like Force Grip. Although I wonder if there is a way to counter it like When Obi-Wan Was Gripped by Dooku is there a way to break out of it. The only evidence I have ever seen is Starkiller using Force Repulse to break out of Force Grip when Vader did it to him.

And I apologize I will not go off-topic again.

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#38 Posted by Stompa (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@Stompa said:

Hmmm what stops Dooku from locking blades with Vader and then use lightning in the infight? If that dosen´t work i think Vader takes it due to having more raw force power and his cyborg body enhances his strength wich is even better with him using Djem So.

1. Because that would mean moving one of his hands off his blade and getting overpowered by Vader.

2. As I pointed out Vader can tank quite a bit of force lightning from a stronger Sith than Dooku.

1. It´s not like it takes him very long to take his hand of and unleashing his lightning.

2. Yes Vader can tank some lightning it still scrambels with his cyborg parts and hurts him way more then a biological opponent and would rob him of a lot of his strength for some time.

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#39 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stompa: 1. It won't be enough to take down Vader if it doesn't take long plus,

2. Palpatine's Force Lightning > Dooku's Force Lightning. If Vader can tank that long enough to kill Palpatine the same is true for Dooku.

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#40 Posted by Stompa (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@Stompa: 1. It won't be enough to take down Vader if it doesn't take long plus,

2. Palpatine's Force Lightning > Dooku's Force Lightning. If Vader can tank that long enough to kill Palpatine the same is true for Dooku.

It don´t think it should one-shot Vader but he is way more vulnerabel to electrical attacks then other opponents and by using this he could gain a great advantage considered that should be pretty equal in a lightbsaber skills.

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#41 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stompa said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@Stompa: 1. It won't be enough to take down Vader if it doesn't take long plus,

2. Palpatine's Force Lightning > Dooku's Force Lightning. If Vader can tank that long enough to kill Palpatine the same is true for Dooku.

It don´t think it should one-shot Vader but he is way more vulnerabel to electrical attacks then other opponents and by using this he could gain a great advantage considered that should be pretty equal in a lightbsaber skills.

And I think taking even the small amount of time needed to use said attacks would give Vader the edge.

Dooku is the better duelist here, Vader's edge here is his style and sheer power.

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#42 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@Silver2467: Ah yes, I see. I like Force Grip. Although I wonder if there is a way to counter it like When Obi-Wan Was Gripped by Dooku is there a way to break out of it. The only evidence I have ever seen is Starkiller using Force Repulse to break out of Force Grip when Vader did it to him.

It depends on the user's Force aura. A Force aura is a natural ability inherent with Force sensitives that allow them basic resistance to standard powers, like Telekinesis. This is why you can see someone like Luke crush a walker or destroy a mountain sized fortress, and yet when he releases a Force Wave against Caedus, the latter survives. However, just because Force auras blunt the effects of TK does not necessarily render the user immune to it. In Obi-Wan's case, his Force aura was insufficient to protect him from Dooku's Grip.
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#43 Posted by Stompa (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@Stompa said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@Stompa: 1. It won't be enough to take down Vader if it doesn't take long plus,

2. Palpatine's Force Lightning > Dooku's Force Lightning. If Vader can tank that long enough to kill Palpatine the same is true for Dooku.

It don´t think it should one-shot Vader but he is way more vulnerabel to electrical attacks then other opponents and by using this he could gain a great advantage considered that should be pretty equal in a lightbsaber skills.

And I think taking even the small amount of time needed to use said attacks would give Vader the edge.

Dooku is the better duelist here, Vader's edge here is his style and sheer power.

Well i think that´s the point where we disagree i think that would give the edge to Dooku.

Both have mastered their favourite style and are very good duelists but i agree that if one is better it would propably be Dooku. Force power clearly goes to Vader.

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#44 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stompa: How? Vader has tanked force lightning before and has an edge with sheer power. Letting up in order to performed force lightning would get Dooku killed and wouldn't really be effective enough to quickly kill Vader.

Indeed, but Vader's style is very unique(and thus would be tricky for Dooku to counter) and I think Silver said it goes well against Dooku's personal style. So I think things even out from a dueling perspective

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#45 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:

I think Silver said it goes well against Dooku's personal style.

It does. Vader's underlying form is Djem So, which is designed to be deliver very powerful, two-handed blows to the opponent, as well as work as an offensive and defensive form that relies very heavily on the user's speed and strength. A person without the needed physical stats would be incapable of properly practicing in Djem So. That said, Vader has always been extremely strong, even before he gained his prostheses. With his prosthetic limbs and the Force amping his strength to show feats like tearing steel doors off ships, his blows should be hard for Dooku, as a Makashi practitioner, to defend against. This was part of the reason Anakin beat Dooku in RotS; when he used the dark side against him, his strength was increased, which overpowered Dooku. 

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Given Vader's strength feats, he very well could accomplish a similar effect here. Now whether anyone believes that advantage will be enough to circumvent Dooku's skill edge is open for discussion.
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#46 Posted by They Killed Cap! (2268 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader wrecks the Dookster

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#47 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Oh yes, So once Dooku got Obi-Wan in Force Grip there was no way to break out of it.

And you talked about Djem so there.

Do you think Mace Windu would have the physical stats to use Djem So

Sorry for going off-topic yet again..

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#48 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@MaceWindu said:

@Silver2467: Oh yes, So once Dooku got Obi-Wan in Force Grip there was no way to break out of it.

Basically. Now someone more powerful than Obi-Wan might have been able to, but Dooku was just more powerful than Kenobi. 
 

And you talked about Djem so there.

Do you think Mace Windu would have the physical stats to use Djem So

Sorry for going off-topic yet again..

Maybe so. Shatterpoint described Mace as well muscled, and I think he has the speed for it. But I doubt Mace would be as adept with Djem So as someone like Luke or Vader or Bane, considering their strength feats.
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#49 Posted by Blacklightning13 (937 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader takes this. He already beat dooku in episode 3 and since then he has learnt how to use the dark side of the force as well as the light.

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#50 Posted by MaceWindu (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Ah yes I see. Thanks. This thread is getting interesting as both Vader and Dooku appear quite even...