Darth Vader (ROTJ) vs TOR team

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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VS

Vader vs Kira Carsen, HoT, Lord Scourge & Barsen'Thor.

RULES

All in prime (ROTJ for Vader, act 3 for team 2).

Start 20 metres apart.

Fight to the death.

Battle takes place here:

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • Seen as though the pre Disney acquisition LFL hierarchy system (G canon, C canon etc) was phased out as early as 2012 (per Leland Chee), it will not apply here. Therefore, G canon will not have supremacy. Although Lucas is still a filmmaker so his WoG can apply when it pertains to his own films, but not the wider verse
  • In Legends, sources can be weighed equally but given that CV is a feats oriented website, it can be assumed that people will debate on who has the better feats. That said, scaling chains, in universe logic/intent and accolades can still counter balance
  • In case it isn't obvious, content such as lego SW, alternate endings/DLC, crossovers with other universes etc aren't allowed
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deactivated-5cd6fe3f211bb

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team 6.5/10

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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deactivated-5cd6fe3f211bb

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@superluigic: Reasoning?

I don't really Have one for this I think it would be just in a close fight

if you want a reason shouldn't you mention that in the op?

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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Bump. Let's see if anyone else has some thoughts.

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nfactor1995

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#7  Edited By nfactor1995

So this is Vader vs all 4 of the protagonists as of Chapter 3?

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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CuckedCurry

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One scores a minor slash on his armour and he proceeds to choke them all out simultaneously

Vader 10/10

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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Vader wins, with some issues.

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WollfMyth209

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One scores a minor slash on his armour and he proceeds to choke them all out simultaneously

Vader 10/10

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LadyKulvax

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Vader gets absolutely slaughtered, lmfao.

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Vader.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Both the HoT and Barsen'Thor should be able to press Vader individually, and a prime Scourge is going to at least hold his own. The presence of Carsen only makes Vader's loss quicker. Team wins 10/10

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jarrodskufca

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Darth Vader wins easily. first off he single handly hunted down and killed many Jedi without breaking a sweat, only an idiot would say otherwise.

Vader wins 10/10

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jarrodskufca

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@lord_tenebrous: Darth Vader easily wiped out most of the Jedi after the Clone Wars, those 4 would stand no chance against him. You are a moron

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jarrodskufca

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jarrodskufca

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@deactivated-5cd6fe3f211bb: you are an idiot if you think it would be a close fight, Darth Vader is far superior than all 4 of them.

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jarrodskufca

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Darthor

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this is a lot of nonsense to respond to

lol, not at all

@deactivated-5cd6fe3f211bb: you are an idiot if you think it would be a close fight, Darth Vader is far superior than all 4 of them.

That depends on the version of HoT. But he is most certainly not "far superior" to any of them except for Kira and Scourge. HoT scales vastly above temple level and the Barsen'thor also has multi'ton TK. If this is the Outlander tho, he solos. Also, calling other people idiot is not respectful.

@ladykulvax: Vader wins end of discussion

Terrible reasoning

@lord_tenebrous: Darth Vader easily wiped out most of the Jedi after the Clone Wars, those 4 would stand no chance against him. You are a moron

1. What does him being a moron or not have to do with this debate

2. He is not a moron and will destroy you in a debate

3. Killing fodder Jedi who has no feats is not impressive at all. I can think of so many other ways for Vader to win then say he kills some Jedi after TCW. Most of the Jedi are merely padawans that HoT can easily ragdoll

Also, seeing as these 5 posts are you first 5, I'd advice you to not make so many enemies on the site yet.

Darth Vader wins easily. first off he single handly hunted down and killed many Jedi without breaking a sweat, only an idiot would say otherwise.

Vader wins 10/10

Not breaking a sweat lol?

He was sweating from head to toes against a single Jedi master and got pushed off a cliff:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Try harder next time

And it's not like he killed them 1 v many, he hunted them down individually

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Darthor

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OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

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Uhu123

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#22  Edited By Uhu123

Team takes a majority.

@darthor said:

Not breaking a sweat lol?

He was sweating from head to toes against a single Jedi master and got pushed off a cliff:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Try harder next time

And it's not like he killed them 1 v many, he hunted them down individually

Canon Vader tbf, although Legends Vader has his fair share of low showings too.

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Darthor

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@uhu123 said:

What a BS thread, team takes a comfortable majority.

@darthor said:

Not breaking a sweat lol?

He was sweating from head to toes against a single Jedi master and got pushed off a cliff:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Try harder next time

And it's not like he killed them 1 v many, he hunted them down individually

Canon Vader tbf, although Legends Vader has his fair share of low showings too.

I know that is canon, but his legends showing doesn't show scenes from the purge so that is why I used the Vader comics

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SheevSmacker

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#24  Edited By SheevSmacker

Adding the Tenebrae to TOR team and Vader still solo them all by feat

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CJ_the_DJ

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@darthor said:

OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

How on earth can you hold Thanaton with Obi-Wan - which you mentioned in another thread - and have Vader beating The Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Kira and Scourge? Do you hold Vader tiers above Kenobi, lol?

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Spider-Simp

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The HoT and Barsen'Thor can give Vader decent fights on their own tbh.

Team 6-7/10

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killbilly

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#27  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
@cj_the_dj said:

@darthor said:

OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

How on earth can you hold Thanaton with Obi-Wan - which you mentioned in another thread - and have Vader beating The Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Kira and Scourge? Do you hold Vader tiers above Kenobi, lol?

Would this be surprising?

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CJ_the_DJ

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@killbilly said:

@cj_the_dj said:

@darthor said:

OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

How on earth can you hold Thanaton with Obi-Wan - which you mentioned in another thread - and have Vader beating The Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Kira and Scourge? Do you hold Vader tiers above Kenobi, lol?

Would this be surprising?

Yes.

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Darthor

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@darthor said:

OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

How on earth can you hold Thanaton with Obi-Wan - which you mentioned in another thread - and have Vader beating The Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Kira and Scourge? Do you hold Vader tiers above Kenobi, lol?

The reason I have Thanaton close to Obi Wan is due to his exotic abilities such as Sith spell Obi Wan has no defense against. Vader on the other hand, have studied Sith sorcery. And yes, I do have Vader a lot above Obi Wan. We have:
ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > KFV >>> ROTS LS Vader > Obi Wan

On the other hand, Kira Karsen lacks real feats to compare, and Scourge is not surviving long. So again, it all depends on version

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Lord_Tenebrous

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killbilly

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#31  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
@cj_the_dj said:

@killbilly said:

@cj_the_dj said:

@darthor said:

OT: This depend solely on the version of Outlander. If it is prime version (EoO) he solos easily. If it is HoT and not the Outlander tho, Vader wins decisively.

How on earth can you hold Thanaton with Obi-Wan - which you mentioned in another thread - and have Vader beating The Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Kira and Scourge? Do you hold Vader tiers above Kenobi, lol?

Would this be surprising?

Yes.

Huh, now that's surprising.

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Darthor

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@darthor:

Thank you.

No problem. And tbh, that person has a grand total of 5 posts, I think any of us can beat him in a debate given the quality of these 5 posts

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CJ_the_DJ

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#33  Edited By CJ_the_DJ

@darthor:

The reason I have Thanaton close to Obi Wan is due to his exotic abilities such as Sith spell Obi Wan has no defense against.

You compared the two in other categories (e.g. TK and their ability to block Lightning) neither of which are predicated on esoteric skills, and thus result in some level of closeness independent of them. Direct parity isn't really needed considering the orders of magnitude the Hero and Scourge are above him (with the Barsen'thor likely being far more powerful, too).

Vader on the other hand, have studied Sith sorcery. And yes, I do have Vader a lot above Obi Wan. We have:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > KFV >>> ROTS LS Vader > Obi Wan

GL has confirmed Vader is below Anakin circa ESB, so this argument doesn't hold (this is also ignoring the Jinn stuff).

On the other hand, Kira Karsen lacks real feats to compare,

If you're going to roast an absolute GOAT, at least spell her name right.

:(

I do, however, accept that Kira is lacking in feats directly relevant to being able to put up a fight against Vader by her lonesome. That's not to say she wouldn't be a useful asset in the fight, though.

and Scourge is not surviving long. So again, it all depends on version

Why is he not surviving long? Scourge, by all indications, is with the upper Dark Council members who would absolutely smoke Thanaton who - according to yourself - isn't vastly below Kenobi.

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CJ_the_DJ

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@killbilly:

Huh, now that's surprising.

I accept that people here aren't going to buy into the idea that Vader is sub-Jinn, at least not right now, but I thought the era of holding him above Anakin/vastly beyond people like Kenobi had passed. I guess not, though.

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killbilly

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#35 killbilly  Moderator

@cj_the_dj: If I’m being honest, I think it would definitely be wise to recalibrate what you think people will buy into if you ever thought the former would become a widely held position.

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BreakOfDawn

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#37  Edited By BreakOfDawn

Vader might be significantly post-prime, but even here he's well above anyone on the team. He wins pretty decisively. However, him being > ROTS Anakin is very yikes.

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CJ_the_DJ

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@killbilly said:

@cj_the_dj: If I’m being honest, I think it would definitely be wise to recalibrate what you think people will buy into if you ever thought the former would become a widely held position.

I didn't ever think the former would be a widely held position here, and my post basically says as much.

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killbilly

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#39  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
@cj_the_dj said:

@killbilly said:

@cj_the_dj: If I’m being honest, I think it would definitely be wise to recalibrate what you think people will buy into if you ever thought the former would become a widely held position.

I didn't ever think the former would be a widely held position here, and my post basically says as much.

I honestly mean in most places, lol. But fair enough.

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Darthor

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@darthor:

The reason I have Thanaton close to Obi Wan is due to his exotic abilities such as Sith spell Obi Wan has no defense against.

You compared the two in other categories (e.g. TK and their ability to block Lightning) neither of which are predicated on esoteric skills, and thus result in some level of closeness independent of them.

I was trying to go for the idea that Thanaton is comparable to Obi Wan in areas Obi Wan is better in (TK) and then his exotic abilities such as force spell can give him an edge.

Direct parity isn't really needed considering the orders of magnitude the Hero and Scourge are above him (with the Barsen'thor likely being far more powerful, too).

Firstly, Scourge is not far above Thanaton. He was managing to win against chapter 2 Nox. And within the force sensitives I do no have a huge gap between the protags.
Second, again, but feats, Obi Wan should be above Thanaton. But by his exotic abilities he might be able to pull out some victories due to the lack of counters

Vader on the other hand, have studied Sith sorcery. And yes, I do have Vader a lot above Obi Wan. We have:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > KFV >>> ROTS LS Vader > Obi Wan

GL has confirmed Vader is below Anakin circa ESB, so this argument doesn't hold (this is also ignoring the Jinn stuff).

I will ignore the Jinn stuff or else I will have to go into a lot of stuff. Firstly, when did Lucas confirm that? Secondly, a large amount of quotes states that Vader in ANH > KFV, and according to Frozen, our representative in terms of LFL matters, Lucas quote is no longer binding even for his own materials. Sure, he still has authority, but sourcebook quotes can easily outweigh him

On the other hand, Kira Karsen lacks real feats to compare,

If you're going to roast an absolute GOAT, at least spell her name right.

:(

A mere slip of my fingers my friend.

I do, however, accept that Kira is lacking in feats directly relevant to being able to put up a fight against Vader by her lonesome. That's not to say she wouldn't be a useful asset in the fight, though.

She is likely going to be dominated by TK at the start...

and Scourge is not surviving long. So again, it all depends on version

Why is he not surviving long? Scourge, by all indications, is with the upper Dark Council members who would absolutely smoke Thanaton who - according to yourself - isn't vastly below Kenobi.

Yes, and in retrospect, Obi Wan is far below Vader...

Again, I'm not saying that Vader wins necessarily. I'm just saying that it depends on the versions being used

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CJ_the_DJ

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#41  Edited By CJ_the_DJ

@darthor:

I was trying to go for the idea that Thanaton is comparable to Obi Wan in areas Obi Wan is better in (TK) and then his exotic abilities such as force spell can give him an edge.

This is all that is necessary for my point to function, and supports my idea last post that you have the two close to one another independent of esoteric abilities.

Firstly, Scourge is not far above Thanaton. He was managing to win against chapter 2 Nox.

Chapter 2 Nox is utterly irrelevant to this discussion unless you can reasonably quantify his abilities relative to Scourge. As for why Scourge is vastly better than Thanaton, he - according to his codex entry - frightened the upper levels of the Dark Council who didn't even blink/weren't threatened by Nox when he utterly obliterated Thanaton. In general, it makes absolutely no sense that The Emperor's Wrath wouldn't be above/on par with the top level Sith considering his job is to kill them if they step out of line.

And within the force sensitives I do no have a huge gap between the protags.

Well, for one, there's the stuff I wrote about Scourge who - per himself - would get telepathically dominated by Vitiate circa Act 3 placing The Hero of Tython several orders of magnitude beyond Nox. For two, the Hero is above Vitiate's conventional power level - ignoring the energies he absorbed from Nathema - placing him beyond all the Sith in the Empire and Novel/KOTOR Revan.

Firstly, when did Lucas confirm that?

Here:

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Credit: The Empire Strikes Back DVD Commentary

---

Secondly, a large amount of quotes states that Vader in ANH > KFV,

There are many quotes which say the opposite independent of Lucas, too. Read the info under the heading "THE BLITZKRIEG" in Ant's final post in his Superfight debate.

and according to Frozen, our representative in terms of LFL matters, Lucas quote is no longer binding even for his own materials. Sure, he still has authority, but sourcebook quotes can easily outweigh him

I don't agree with Frozen's declaration that LFL policy was phased out as of 2012 - I think he's misinterpreting the quotes - as Chee and co. repeatedly reaffirmed its existence in 2013 and 2014.

She is likely going to be dominated by TK at the start...

When a weaker character is surrounded by stronger ones this generally doesn't happen. For example, Caedus didn't dominate ordinary Jedi Knight's due to Katarn's presence, Vaylin didn't one-shot Lana and Theron when the Outlander was there, Abeloth didn't one-shot low level Lost Tribe members when Luke was there, etc.

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#42 frozen  Moderator

@cj_the_dj: I'd just like to state that links to that SI blog aren't allowed on CV, so I've went ahead with editing it out of your post. As for LFL, this thread isn't abiding by the LFL - but if you want to discuss this matchup under those rules, you can recreate the thread with those stipulations.

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Darthor

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@darthor:

I was trying to go for the idea that Thanaton is comparable to Obi Wan in areas Obi Wan is better in (TK) and then his exotic abilities such as force spell can give him an edge.

This is all that is necessary for my point to function, and supports my idea last post that you have the two close to one another independent of esoteric abilities.

I do not have them close without exotic abilities at all. Obi Wan is a massively better duelist and probably still superior in terms of TK. And I also don't think Thanaton > Obi Wan with his spell, I call them split or maybe slight edge to Obi Wan. All I stated was Thanaton is on Obi Wan's level.

Firstly, Scourge is not far above Thanaton. He was managing to win against chapter 2 Nox.

Chapter 2 Nox is utterly irrelevant to this discussion unless you can reasonably quantify his abilities relative to Scourge. As for why Scourge is vastly better than Thanaton, he - according to his codex entry - frightened the upper levels of the Dark Council who didn't even blink/weren't threatened by Nox when he utterly obliterated Thanaton. In general, it makes absolutely no sense that The Emperor's Wrath wouldn't be above/on par with the top level Sith considering his job is to kill them if they step out of line.

The fact that they fear his powers doesn't quantify necessarily him being above them. Also, given how he was made mysteriously and his purpose is to keep them in line, I don't think the council members will even properly know how powerful he is. Council members such as Darth Malgus will also stomp Scourge, so I don't see why it applies the Thanaton necessarily.

And within the force sensitives I do no have a huge gap between the protags.

Well, for one, there's the stuff I wrote about Scourge who - per himself - would get telepathically dominated by Vitiate circa Act 3 placing The Hero of Tython several orders of magnitude beyond Nox. For two, the Hero is above Vitiate's conventional power level - ignoring the energies he absorbed from Nathema - placing him beyond all the Sith in the Empire and Novel/KOTOR Revan.

How is HoT even close to Vitiate level in chapter 1-3? Also, the fight with Scourge happened in Chapter 2, and Revan, who just got back from 300 years of mental torture is already solidly above HoT. HoT only grew above Novel Revan level by KOTFE. Besides, that is irrelavent, as it is not like Scourge managed to stalemate HoT when he was in his prime in chapter 1-3, he did so in Chapter 2, so your argument make no sense.

Firstly, when did Lucas confirm that?

Here:

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Credit: The Empire Strikes Back DVD Commentary

---

Right. Well, first of, given the LFL policy, Lucas quotes being outweighed by the vast majority of sources will makes this irrelevant. He specifically talked about the example of Anakin vs Vader. And given how he is CV's connection to the creators for the new meta, I think his work should more or less represent the new meta

Secondly, a large amount of quotes states that Vader in ANH > KFV,

There are many quotes which say the opposite independent of Lucas, too. Read the info under the heading "THE BLITZKRIEG" in Ant's final post in this debate.

Most of the sources Ant posted was about ROTS suited Vader, he could easily have grown past that up until ESB

and according to Frozen, our representative in terms of LFL matters, Lucas quote is no longer binding even for his own materials. Sure, he still has authority, but sourcebook quotes can easily outweigh him

I don't agree with Frozen's declaration that LFL policy was phased out as of 2012 - I think he's misinterpreting the quotes - as Chee and co. repeatedly reaffirmed its existence in 2013 and 2014.

He has proof.

She is likely going to be dominated by TK at the start...

When a weaker character is surrounded by stronger ones this generally doesn't happen. For example, Caedus didn't dominate ordinary Jedi Knight's due to Katarn's presence, Vaylin didn't one-shot Lana and Theron when the Outlander was there, Abeloth didn't one-shot low level Lost Tribe members when Luke was there, etc.

true but she will also has a limited contribution and will probably die pretty fast

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Darthor

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@darthor:

I was trying to go for the idea that Thanaton is comparable to Obi Wan in areas Obi Wan is better in (TK) and then his exotic abilities such as force spell can give him an edge.

This is all that is necessary for my point to function, and supports my idea last post that you have the two close to one another independent of esoteric abilities.

I do not have them close without exotic abilities at all. Obi Wan is a massively better duelist and probably still superior in terms of TK. And I also don't think Thanaton > Obi Wan with his spell, I call them split or maybe slight edge to Obi Wan. All I stated was Thanaton is on Obi Wan's level.

Firstly, Scourge is not far above Thanaton. He was managing to win against chapter 2 Nox.

Chapter 2 Nox is utterly irrelevant to this discussion unless you can reasonably quantify his abilities relative to Scourge. As for why Scourge is vastly better than Thanaton, he - according to his codex entry - frightened the upper levels of the Dark Council who didn't even blink/weren't threatened by Nox when he utterly obliterated Thanaton. In general, it makes absolutely no sense that The Emperor's Wrath wouldn't be above/on par with the top level Sith considering his job is to kill them if they step out of line.

The fact that they fear his powers doesn't quantify necessarily him being above them. Also, given how he was made mysteriously and his purpose is to keep them in line, I don't think the council members will even properly know how powerful he is. Council members such as Darth Malgus will also stomp Scourge, so I don't see why it applies the Thanaton necessarily.

And within the force sensitives I do no have a huge gap between the protags.

Well, for one, there's the stuff I wrote about Scourge who - per himself - would get telepathically dominated by Vitiate circa Act 3 placing The Hero of Tython several orders of magnitude beyond Nox. For two, the Hero is above Vitiate's conventional power level - ignoring the energies he absorbed from Nathema - placing him beyond all the Sith in the Empire and Novel/KOTOR Revan.

How is HoT even close to Vitiate level in chapter 1-3? Also, the fight with Scourge happened in Chapter 2, and Revan, who just got back from 300 years of mental torture is already solidly above HoT. HoT only grew above Novel Revan level by KOTFE. Besides, that is irrelavent, as it is not like Scourge managed to stalemate HoT when he was in his prime in chapter 1-3, he did so in Chapter 2, so your argument make no sense.

Firstly, when did Lucas confirm that?

Here:

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Credit: The Empire Strikes Back DVD Commentary

---

Right. Well, first of, given the LFL policy, Lucas quotes being outweighed by the vast majority of sources will makes this irrelevant. He specifically talked about the example of Anakin vs Vader. And given how he is CV's connection to the creators for the new meta, I think his work should more or less represent the new meta

Secondly, a large amount of quotes states that Vader in ANH > KFV,

There are many quotes which say the opposite independent of Lucas, too. Read the info under the heading "THE BLITZKRIEG" in Ant's final post in this debate.

Most of the sources Ant posted was about ROTS suited Vader, he could easily have grown past that up until ESB

and according to Frozen, our representative in terms of LFL matters, Lucas quote is no longer binding even for his own materials. Sure, he still has authority, but sourcebook quotes can easily outweigh him

I don't agree with Frozen's declaration that LFL policy was phased out as of 2012 - I think he's misinterpreting the quotes - as Chee and co. repeatedly reaffirmed its existence in 2013 and 2014.

He has proof.

She is likely going to be dominated by TK at the start...

When a weaker character is surrounded by stronger ones this generally doesn't happen. For example, Caedus didn't dominate ordinary Jedi Knight's due to Katarn's presence, Vaylin didn't one-shot Lana and Theron when the Outlander was there, Abeloth didn't one-shot low level Lost Tribe members when Luke was there, etc.

true but she will also has a limited contribution and will probably die pretty fast

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#45 frozen  Moderator
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@cj_the_dj: did you really link one of the SI blogs here ? damn , i guess they still have some fans

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#48  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

Just wanted to let you know I also edited the following section of your post since it contained another link to SI:

@cj_the_dj said:

There are many quotes which say the opposite independent of Lucas, too. Read the info under the heading "THE BLITZKRIEG" in Ant's final post in his Superfight debate.

Remember, you can debate by any standard you like, but you have to specify them in your OP or the rules revert to CV's standard policy for Star Wars debate. Happy debating.

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#49  Edited By CJ_the_DJ

@frozen:

I'd just like to state that links to that SI blog aren't allowed on CV, so I've went ahead with editing it out of your post.

How very interesting. Regardless I don't see why it should be disallowed as the content of the blog isn't offensive - it's just disagreeing with a claim you made. I linked it to save the trouble of re-iterating the exact same arguments myself.

As for LFL, this thread isn't abiding by the LFL - but if you want to discuss this matchup under those rules, you can recreate the thread with those stipulations.

But the rules are contingent on a premise which I'm disputing? If said premise isn't true then there's no reason for me - nor anyone posting in this thread - to buy into them. It'd be like if I made a thread on MCU vs DCEU with one of the rules saying "Zack Snyder said Superman is weaker than the Hulk, so when comparing characters you should follow from this starting idea" and then started complaining when people don't want to follow said rules because they don't think Zack actually said that.

@darthor:

I do not have them close without exotic abilities at all. Obi Wan is a massively better duelist and probably still superior in terms of TK. And I also don't think Thanaton > Obi Wan with his spell, I call them split or maybe slight edge to Obi Wan. All I stated was Thanaton is on Obi Wan's level.

You're joking, right?

I was trying to go for the idea that Thanaton is comparable to Obi Wan in areas Obi Wan is better in (TK)

Credit: Darthor

You clearly have them close in regards to power - else you wouldn't have used the word comparable here - and you didn't clarify any areas in which Kenobi is vastly better (even though you apparently do think he has some big edges). Next time you want to convey you think there's a big gap between characters, I recommend you actually properly explain where you think the difference lies - else someone (me) will get the wrong impression. Regardless, I don't think your extra declaration that Kenobi is a considerably better duellist means very much. Thanaton being close in power is all that's necessary considering the big gaps between the other characters.

The fact that they fear his powers doesn't quantify necessarily him being above them.

I never said it did. I said that their attitude towards him vs their utter negligence towards Nox puts him beyond Nox, and that he should at least be on the level of some of the stronger members.

Also, given how he was made mysteriously and his purpose is to keep them in line, I don't think the council members will even properly know how powerful he is.

Given that the in-universe codex is aware of the number of people Scourge has killed, it would seem as though his achievements are known: "As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith." Furthermore, this statement is directly followed by the codex noting the Dark Council's fear of him, so it seems implicit that the aforementioned is the cause. Not only that, but I just don't buy that someone who's served the Empire for 300 centuries, and has probably had to assassinate several Dark Council members who've pissed the Emperor off in that time wouldn't have met his match if he wasn't even better than Sith like Thanaton.

Council members such as Darth Malgus will also stomp Scourge, so I don't see why it applies the Thanaton necessarily.

Malgus is a special case. Firstly, the above statement about the DC's fear of Scourge isn't including him, because he joined said council after it was made. Secondly, he's the been described as the Empire's "deadliest warrior", and, per the developers, is on par with Arcann. He's clearly not cut from the same cloth as the rest of the DC, so you can't attribute his ability to stomp Scourge to exempt people like Thanaton from being inferior.

How is HoT even close to Vitiate level in chapter 1-3?

I don't think he's on par with Vitiate's full power, lol. I specifically clarified he's on par with/better than the power Vitiate wields that's not from Nathema. This is evident from his ability to beat Vitiate in Act 3 who - while he'd had the energies he drained from Nathema depleted - would still wield such power.

Also, the fight with Scourge happened in Chapter 2,

[...]

Besides, that is irrelavent, as it is not like Scourge managed to stalemate HoT when he was in his prime in chapter 1-3, he did so in Chapter 2, so your argument make no sense.

I didn't even mention the Scourge fight in Chapter 2??? I'm not trying to scale Scourge off the Hero, I'm trying to scale the Hero above Scourge, as the Hero is likewise one of the combatants in this thread. Let me make this simple for you:

  • Scourge says that even a weakened Act 3 Vitiate can TP dominate him.
  • The Hero defeats the aforementioned iteration of Vitiate.
  • Thus, the Hero is >>>> Scourge.

and Revan, who just got back from 300 years of mental torture is already solidly above HoT.

Why?

HoT only grew above Novel Revan level by KOTFE.

The entire point of the Jedi Knight storyline is that the Hero is better than Revan and could do what Revan couldn't. Scourge was fully confident that the Hero could kill Vitiate before they even found out about him being weakened - necessitating he believes the Hero is stronger than Revan.

Right. Well, first of, given the LFL policy, Lucas quotes being outweighed by the vast majority of sources will makes this irrelevant. He specifically talked about the example of Anakin vs Vader. And given how he is CV's connection to the creators for the new meta, I think his work should more or less represent the new meta

LFL policy dictates that Lucas generally trumps all sources unless it's specifically clarified to be an exception, so, no, it's not irrelevant.

Most of the sources Ant posted was about ROTS suited Vader, he could easily have grown past that up until ESB

They weren't? Let's go through them:

(1) The question asked directly mentions ESB and ROTJ.

(2) Refers to ROTJ Luke who's equal to ROTJ Vader.

(3) General character summary, so it's not limited to a specific time frame.

(4) Says Anakin's peak is Mustafar which places him above all other iterations of himself - including ROTJ.

(5) Literally says "for the rest of his life".

(6) Is the Lucas quote which you already agree is semantically solid.

Don't be so dismissive, please, actually write a proper rebuttal explaining your POV. Right now it's just an unsubstantiated claim.

He has proof.

And the proof was refuted? Seeing as I'm apparently not allowed to link to the blog directly, I'll link to a thread which links to the blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/frozen-is-wrong-or-whatever-2240058/, because CV - contrary to what has been claimed - does allow the thread to be linked.

true but she will also has a limited contribution and will probably die pretty fast

I don't agree. Ordinary Jedi Knights managed to cover Katarn so he could kick Caedus in the face, and Lana and Theron allowed The Outlander to get close to Vaylin. I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it actually is to fight multiple opponents - even when they're not strong individually.

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#50  Edited By CJ_the_DJ

@killbilly:

Just wanted to let you know I also edited the following section of your post since it contained another link to SI:

You've got to be kidding me? I don't see any problem with linking threads with explanations for arguments - it's literally no different from linking any other kind of writing. I get that you guys don't like the site, but - as far as I'm concerned - what I'm doing is not remotely harmful.

Remember, you can debate by any standard you like, but you have to specify them in your OP or the rules revert to CV's standard policy for Star Wars debate. Happy debating.

Edit: Retracted after BoD's clarification.