Darth Vader (ROTJ) vs Darth Sidious (ROTS)

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Void_Reborn

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@mygod000:

It was a struggle those. I call it a struggle because if he was so far above maul, and just decided to abuse the force he would have easily raggdolled maul.

You know just because something is not a struggle does not mean one character is completely on a whole nother level and out of the league of the other character, right? There was no 'struggle' but certainly Maul is not a joke to Windu. The fight lasted at most 12 seconds. You can't even call it struggling.

instead it was a fight which was cut short before it's conclusion, Mace also struggled with a droid as well.

I remember Anakin struggled with a Magnaguard, Eeth Koth with Commando Droids and some other situations. Everyone has low showings.

I think Mace is clearly above Maul...but he isn't far above him to where he can laugh at his attempts to kill him like TCW Sidious did, Mace would struggle to kill Maul.

Those are your thoughts. Yet to be proven. Mace may or may not have legitimately outdueled Palpatine and that can easily decide what happens with Maul. Frankly, because of Vaapad (Legends) and how it takes advantage of the opponent's rage and hatred, Maul would be in very deep trouble.

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Void_Reborn

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@firelordiroh:

"99% of the mythos have never held a lightsaber in their life. Lol." Lol true but I just meant the force-sensitive characters.

Ik lol.

"Also no, Obi-Wan and Luke with Legends feats are definitely above Maul." Oh Luke definitely is a better duelist than Maul and Maul is at least equal to Obi-Wan if not slightly below him in dueling. This is really off-topic lol

Yeah it is really off topic lol. I acknowledge that. I think Maul is slightly below him. Obi-Wan dueled evenly with Maul and Savage and when they did get the upper hand and pushed him into a corner, he got out, disarming Savage and almost killing him even while Maul was there. On the other hand, Kenobi has been pushed around by Maul a few times in TCW. But, looking at prime versions (ROTS Obi-Wan), if he can beat Anakin and Grievous in the novelisation, he can certainly beat Maul straight up.

OT: Vader could win in canon but that also means ROTJ Luke is at the level of the ROTS titans.

Vader by then is well past his prime. Wouldn't be a stretch to say Dooku > ROTJ Vader but some may say Luke was fighting a Vader who was holding back/not trying to kill him and only won due to a rage amp.

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DVader000

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Sarah Connor solos both with her bare hands literally (and bare feet)

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MyGod000

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#104  Edited By MyGod000

@void_reborn:

You know just because something is not a struggle does not mean one character is completely on a whole nother level and out of the league of the other character, right? There was no 'struggle' but certainly Maul is not a joke to Windu. The fight lasted at most 12 seconds. You can't even call it struggling.

I am not saying because he struggled that puts them on a Whole Different "level" I am just acknowledging that it wasn't a walk in the park with them. it was a struggle Because Maul and Mace dueling wise are in the same tier. Vapaad gives Mace the advantage completely.

I remember Anakin struggled with a Magnaguard, Eeth Koth with Commando Droids and some other situations. Everyone has low showings.

okay. That was Base Anakin not Dark side Anakin...that argument would also put Dooku below Magnaguards which makes Zero Sense. Maul Giving Mace a Hard time make sense, and from your argument you don't disagree that maul gives mace a hard time.

Those are your thoughts. Yet to be proven. Mace may or may not have legitimately outdueled Palpatine and that can easily decide what happens with Maul. Frankly, because of Vaapad (Legends) and how it takes advantage of the opponent's rage and hatred, Maul would be in very deep trouble.

Mace wouldn't get the same Boost From Maul anger as he did from Sidious. The rage that Sidious held is way higher than Maul's rage sorry to tell you this. This has been Every mace Windu Fans Argument that "any" Dark side user would put him on Palpatine level which is unfounded.

Regardless of weather Sidious out dueled Mace or Not...what we can confirm is that Sidious struggled with Mace. From there we can say that the Gap isn't as huge as people pretend it to be. all what needs to be proven is that Vader is more much more powerful than mace to really prove that he more powerful than ROTS Sidious.

The Fact that ROTS Suit Vader can already Force push Sidious across the room, already puts Vader Above Mace Windu, and a Peer of ROTS Sidious. From their he kept getting way more powerful.

5 years after ROTS Lords of the Sith Vader>Dark side Anakin>=ROTS Sidious>Yoda>Suit ROTS Vader>Dark side Mace

Rebels Vader>Lords of the Sith Vader>Dark Side Amp Anakin>=ROTS Sidious.

ROTJ Vader>Rebels Vader>Lords of the Sith Vader>Dark Side amp Anakin>ROTS Sidious.

I think the chain is a bit higher than this because between each iteration of Vader is about 5+ years easily, in canon it was never stated or implied that Vader lost his potential to get much more powerful, and even with the this chain it puts any Vader after Lords of the Sith above ROTS iteration of Sidious easily.

ROTJ Vader>>>ROTS Dark Side Amp Anakin=>ROTS Sidious

that is being nice since i think it more than that.

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The_Holocrom

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@void_reborn: I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters, and has proved to be superior to grievious. Sidious thought he was enough of a threat to deal with him personally...that simple act carries much weight with it. Ofcourse arguments could be made for other duelist, but not even in top 25? That's a bold statement my friend. This is the man that sidious trained for 20 odd years since birth.

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Void_Reborn

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@the_holocrom:

I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters, and has proved to be superior to grievious

When exactly has he proven this? More likely the opposite.

Sidious thought he was enough of a threat to deal with him personally...that simple act carries much weight with it.

It is likely Sidious said that because Maul had both an apprentice, was in control of Mandalore, multiple system spanning crime syndicates and was amassing forces very quickly; not just because of Maul alone.

Ofcourse arguments could be made for other duelist, but not even in top 25? That's a bold statement my friend. This is the man that sidious trained for 20 odd years since birth.

Okay, I'll agree that top 25 is fine. But I can't put him in top 20, not decisively or confidently at least. Arguments can be made for it but I think there are too many contenders for spots 16-20 around his tier.

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Void_Reborn

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@void_reborn: I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters,

When has Maul done this? He barely duels anyone in TCW save Kenobi, who isn't Council-level yet. He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency. Aside from that, he's only fought Ventress(not Council-level), and possibly Kit Fisto in legends, and he lost both fights.

and has proved to be superior to grievious.

Maul was almost instantly dismissed by Grievous on Zanbar, and only gained the upper hand over him in a later duel that took place in a major dark side nexus. Not to mention, other people who have outfought Maul, like Kenobi & Ventress, have been trounced by Grievous in similar fashion.

Sidious thought he was enough of a threat to deal with him personally...that simple act carries much weight with it.

That has more to do with positional power -- Maul literally took control of an entire world almost immediately, and had the three biggest crime syndicates under his thumb, including Black Sun & the Hutts, which is insane. Maul was a threat to the Grand Plan, and his very existence as a Sith Lord violated Sith doctrine, so Sidious took him out.

This is the man that sidious trained for 20 odd years since birth.

And by TCW he's spent over 12 years in a state of insanity. He hasn't used his lightsaber in well over a decade, so he's vastly past his prime.

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Eredin12

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#109  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@alextheboss: This is maybe a bit of topic( although it still affects it) but may i ask did you read ROS novel, if you did, did it say that Palpatine lifted fleet or that ships did that by themselves

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Void_Reborn

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@the_holocrom said:

@void_reborn: I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters,

When has Maul done this? He barely duels anyone in TCW save Kenobi, who isn't Council-level yet. He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency. Aside from that, he's only fought Ventress(not Council-level), and possibly Kit Fisto in legends, and he lost both fights.

and has proved to be superior to grievious.

Maul was almost instantly dismissed by Grievous on Zanbar, and only gained the upper hand over him in a later duel that took place in a major dark side nexus. Not to mention, other people who have outfought Maul, like Kenobi & Ventress, have been trounced by Grievous in similar fashion.

Sidious thought he was enough of a threat to deal with him personally...that simple act carries much weight with it.

That has more to do with positional power -- Maul literally took control of an entire world almost immediately, and had the three biggest crime syndicates under his thumb, including Black Sun & the Hutts, which is insane. Maul was a threat to the Grand Plan, and his very existence as a Sith Lord violated Sith doctrine, so Sidious took him out.

This is the man that sidious trained for 20 odd years since birth.

And by TCW he's spent over 12 years in a state of insanity. He hasn't used his lightsaber in well over a decade, so he's vastly past his prime.

^^^^^ Same exact thoughts.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000: I'll get back to you in a bit.

hey...take as much time as you need friend good friend.

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Void_Reborn

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#112  Edited By Void_Reborn

@mygod000:

I am not saying because he struggled that puts them on a Whole Different "level" I am just acknowledging that it wasn't a walk in the park with them.

Yes it was definitely no walk in the park but struggle is definitely not the word to use here as far as Mace's performance. Duel was too brief to judge anything aside from Aayla and Tiplee being fodder and Mandalorians being MVPs.

it was a struggle Because Maul and Mace dueling wise are in the same tier.

I wouldn't exactly say they are in the same tier. Their performance against Sidious pretty much says why.

Vapaad gives Mace the advantage completely

Definitely.

okay. That was Base Anakin not Dark side Anakin

What exactly do you mean when you say base? You used it to describe Mace against Maul as well. Do you mean as in when they are not amped? Because I could understand you seeing Vaapad as an amp when used to a high degree or to its full extent. Same goes with Anakin having a rage amp.

that argument would also put Dooku below Magnaguards which makes Zero Sense.

No it wouldn't. If anything, Anakin struggles with Dooku a lot more than any Magnaguard he has ever fought.

Maul Giving Mace a Hard time make sense, and from your argument you don't disagree that maul gives mace a hard time.

Again, I don't really see how we can judge their performance here with such a brief duel being displayed and almost nothing to go off of aside from very few comic panels that don't show anything significant going on between Maul and Mace. If 'hard time' means would be pressured and find difficulty then yes; if they ever fought each other.

Mace wouldn't get the same Boost From Maul anger as he did from Sidious. The rage that Sidious held is way higher than Maul's rage sorry to tell you this.

Firstly, I never said Maul fights with more rage than Sidious or that Mace would get as much of a boost from the former's anger as compared to the latter's. Secondly, how do you know?

This has been Every mace Windu Fans Argument that "any" Dark side user would put him on Palpatine level which is unfounded.

I don't advocate for this. Windu would be getting a much smaller Vaapad 'amp' or 'advantage' from someone like Dooku compared to Maul. Emotion plays a big factor here not only in the inner code of the Sith and how the individuals choose to use it during combat but also by how Vaapad takes advantage of it as a form of lightsaber combat.

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AlexTheBoss

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@eredin12: I haven't read it myself so unfortunately I don't know as of this moment.

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deactivated-5e80d2cfcca66

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Vader in a hard fight.

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MyGod000

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@void_reborn:

Yes it was definitely no walk in the park but struggle is definitely not the word to use here as far as Mace's performance. Duel was too brief to judge anything aside from Aayla and Tiplee being fodder and Mandalorians being MVPs.

my point is even those it was short...we know Mace isn't beating Maul like Sidious beat maul so it is clearly going to be a fight not a stomp.

I wouldn't exactly say they are in the same tier. Their performance against Sidious pretty much says why.

They are it just that Mace is higher in the Tier than maul. I have Maul a tier 8, Same with Base ROTS Anakin and Obi-wan. Mace in his base would be like a 8.3, and while using Vapaad 8.9, Dooku I have as a 8.5.

Even those these numbers don't really exist in Disney Canon they seem to be accurate...since it would put Mace still Weaker than ROTS Sidious but Powerful enough to take him down. Both Dooku and Mace are able to challenge Yoda but in there own Way.

Mace is the better Duelist and can give Yoda a fight, while Dooku could give Yoda a great duel...It his force powers that and knowledge of the Force that Rivals Yoda and made him struggle, not his dueling even those Dooku's dueling was superb.

Definitely.

Okay...then we agree on that Vapaad used to it limits make Mace much better, and nearly puts him in tier 9 with Yoda and Sidious.

What exactly do you mean when you say base? You used it to describe Mace against Maul as well. Do you mean as in when they are not amped? Because I could understand you seeing Vaapad as an amp when used to a high degree or to its full extent. Same goes with Anakin having a rage amp.

Yeah. It just them without the amps. Mace without using Vapaad, and Anakin without using the Dark side to boost himself even higher.

No it wouldn't. If anything, Anakin struggles with Dooku a lot more than any Magnaguard he has ever fought.

That was at the start when he was in base...but once he started using the Dark side after Dooku Taunt him...Anakin pretty much dominated Dooku to the point Dooku needed to use soo much of his power just so that he wouldn't be cut in halve.

Firstly, I never said Maul fights with more rage than Sidious or that Mace would get as much of a boost from the former's anger as compared to the latter's. Secondly, how do you know?

I wasn't speaking about you specifically...I was talking in general. If you look at most mace windu Thread people usually assume that Mace would get the same boost as he did against Sidious.

I don't advocate for this. Windu would be getting a much smaller Vaapad 'amp' or 'advantage' from someone like Dooku compared to Maul. Emotion plays a big factor here not only in the inner code of the Sith and how the individuals choose to use it during combat but also by how Vaapad takes advantage of it as a form of lightsaber combat.

I know, I am speaking in general, that most of the fans do that.

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firelordiroh

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@mygod000:

"Thread people usually assume that Mace would get the same boost as he did against Sidious." Yeah, this is always unfortunate to see in Mace threads. Vaapad is always either heavily wanked or low-balled. Vaapad at it's core is still a lightsaber form not some instant amplifier against any Sith and it requires the users internal darkness just as much as the opponent.

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The_Holocrom

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#117  Edited By The_Holocrom

@void_reborn said:
@lord_tenebrous said:
@the_holocrom said:

@void_reborn: I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters,

When has Maul done this? He barely duels anyone in TCW save Kenobi, who isn't Council-level yet. He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency. Aside from that, he's only fought Ventress(not Council-level), and possibly Kit Fisto in legends, and he lost both fights.

and has proved to be superior to grievious.

Maul was almost instantly dismissed by Grievous on Zanbar, and only gained the upper hand over him in a later duel that took place in a major dark side nexus. Not to mention, other people who have outfought Maul, like Kenobi & Ventress, have been trounced by Grievous in similar fashion.

Sidious thought he was enough of a threat to deal with him personally...that simple act carries much weight with it.

That has more to do with positional power -- Maul literally took control of an entire world almost immediately, and had the three biggest crime syndicates under his thumb, including Black Sun & the Hutts, which is insane. Maul was a threat to the Grand Plan, and his very existence as a Sith Lord violated Sith doctrine, so Sidious took him out.

This is the man that sidious trained for 20 odd years since birth.

And by TCW he's spent over 12 years in a state of insanity. He hasn't used his lightsaber in well over a decade, so he's vastly past his prime.

^^^^^ Same exact thoughts.

@void_reborn: I find that hard to believe. Maul has already fought and held his own against council level masters,

When has Maul done this? He barely duels anyone in TCW save Kenobi, who isn't Council-level yet. He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency. Aside from that, he's only fought Ventress(not Council-level), and possibly Kit Fisto in legends, and he lost both fights.

Here: fighting mace windu along with master aayla secura. He is able to kick secura off guard while simultaneously defending against mace windu. The duel is Short, so the points they chose to display are interesting. As far as ventress I'm not going to get into that, but ventress has tossed a few council members and has killed many jedi masters including quinlan vos masters. In dark disciple Dooku shows quinlan a cabinet with over 30 lightsabers all with jedi ventress and grievious killed. Bro smh, you underestimate Kenobi so bad its almost ridiculous.

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Again don't sleep on ventress, I would argue ventress dispatched greivious better then maul, both were essentially in the same situation a losing battle. Best of all ventress defeated him toe to toe no tricks or gimmicks just a straight up slugfest.

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and has proved to be superior to grievious.

"Maul was almost instantly dismissed by Grievous on Zanbar, and only gained the upper hand over him in a later duel that took place in a major dark side nexus. Not to mention, other people who have outfought Maul, like Kenobi & Ventress, have been trounced by Grievous in similar fashion."

Fight on Zanbar: Not as asimple as being dismissed. Maul had to cut his way through several magna guards to even reach grievious in the first place. In their brief encounter grievious got one kick in. He did not dismiss maul, maul made a tactical retreat after re-examining the battlefield and realized he was fighting a losing battle. A quote from thrawn sums it up perfectly. Funny that maul follows the quote almost perfect, he fled only to lay an ambush that captured both grievious and Dooku at the same time while resulting in master tiplee's death later on.

"I am a warrior, your majesty. A warrior may retreat, he does not FLEE. He may lay in AMBUSH he does not HIDE" - thrawn

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Later on in that day when he meets up with grievious again, he is not dismissed.

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Then in their duel, it turns out it was grievious who was dismissed.

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That darkside nexus excuse is not that simple. Anakin skywalker is a walking nexus yet nobody is boosted around him, at least that we know of. Both he and a planet nexus are what are called Vergences in the force. Now if Anakin is present and connects with something or someone in the force it allows things to flow or see easier, example is when yoda and mace meditated with Anakin to see the visions in TCW. As the force binds and penetrates all things, a nexus/vergence then by definition is a place or spot connected to all things. however people don't get automatically boosted..in the words of finn "THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS" lol.

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The_Holocrom

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#118  Edited By The_Holocrom

@eredin12: It was a vision, I have the audiobook. Anyone interested in a shared link?

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Void_Reborn

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#119  Edited By Void_Reborn

@the_holocrom:

Here: fighting mace windu along with master aayla secura. He is able to kick secura off guard while simultaneously defending against mace windu. The duel is Short, so the points they chose to display are interesting.

So Maul has fought against ONE council master briefly while simultaneously kicking away fodder Secura. That's what you call holding his own against Jedi Council Masters? We can't even judge anything based on that panel aside from Aayla being consistently useless in all of her showings even when she is or is not tired.

Again don't sleep on ventress, I would argue ventress dispatched greivious better then maul, both were essentially in the same situation a losing battle. Best of all ventress defeated him toe to toe no tricks or gimmicks just a straight up slugfest.

Ventress was on a dark side nexus. Grievous has defeated Ventress AND Durge before. No reason he can't beat her alone in a normal fight. Their performance against Kenobi is the best way to judge this. Ventress is usually toyed with Kenobi or the fight goes in a way where the latter does not have to be focus everything into defending because it is not overly difficult. The only good showing for Ventress in this regard is ragdolling Skywalker and Kenobi while rage-amped. Similar move to what Savage later did to her and Dooku. Meanwhile, Grievous has outfought Obi-Wan on 5 occasions during the TCW series with inconclusive fights. In some of those fights Kenobi gets 2 shotted. Even when they were both in their prime, Kenobi was hard pressed more than ever in his final duel with Grievous. 21 strikes per second attack speed overloaded his defenses and he had to go 150% in order to keep up against it. Nobody in this tier has ever given Obi-Wan such a relentless attack. Not Ventress, not Maul.

Besides:

He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist.

~Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Pretty much confirms what I've said.

Fight on Zanbar: Not as simple as being dismissed. Maul had to cut his way through several magna guards to even reach grievious in the first place. In their brief encounter grievious got one kick in. He did not dismiss maul, maul made a tactical retreat after re-examining the battlefield and realized he was fighting a losing battle.

If you look at the panel, Maul casually cuts through those Magnaguards with no issues whatsoever. It was casual work for him and Grievous, who fought through Mandalorian warriors to get to him all the same, found an opening to kick him when they got into a blade lock. This same exact move has been done to both Kenobi and Ventress and potentially other Jedi he has faced. I would definitely call it a dismiss. His retreat was because of the losing battle yes but Maul is in no way at any fatigue disadvantage here as you are arguing. This is the sith who, as a boy, survived on a remote planet for weeks with no food, shelter and only assassin droids for company. Swinging his darksaber through a couple of droids is nothing.

Later on in that day when he meets up with grievious again, he is not dismissed.

It was an ambush; irrelevant.

Then in their duel, it turns out it was grievious who was dismissed.

If you call being force pushed away while distracted and your enemy is on a potent dark side nexus dismissed and think it is a relevant scene to judge that Maul >/= to Grievous then yeah sure. Hate to break it to you but everything points at Canon Grievous > TCW/SOD Maul and Canon Grievous is inferior to his Legends counterpart while TCW Maul is his most 'powerful' incarnation as he is reborn anew and boosted by his hatred for Kenobi.

darkside nexus excuse is not that simple. Anakin skywalker is a walking nexus yet nobody is boosted around him, at least that we know of. Both he and a planet nexus are what are called Vergences in the force. Now if Anakin is present and connects with something or someone in the force it allows things to flow or see easier, example is when yoda and mace meditated with Anakin to see the visions in TCW. As the force binds and penetrates all things, a nexus/vergence then by definition is a place or spot connected to all things. however people don't get automatically boosted..in the words of finn "THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS" lol.

Lol that Anakin = Planet as a force nexus.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000:

"Thread people usually assume that Mace would get the same boost as he did against Sidious." Yeah, this is always unfortunate to see in Mace threads. Vaapad is always either heavily wanked or low-balled. Vaapad at it's core is still a lightsaber form not some instant amplifier against any Sith and it requires the users internal darkness just as much as the opponent.

I agree with that. i do think it gets downplayed a bit as well as wanked. We just need to find a happy medium with it...which is why I Agree that when Mace uses Vapaad to it limits it puts him around The ROTS Sidious and Yoda tier level at 8.9 which is him boarding a tier 9, and powerful enough to actually beat ROTS Sidious.

I don't believe Dooku is a tier 9, but I believe his force powers alone can make Yoda tier fighters Struggle heavily like he did in Attack of the clones movie. Both Mace and Dooku have their own little thing where they can make Yoda tier fighter struggle Dooku with the force and his force lightning, and mace with his dueling with vapaad. I think that seem more fair for them because they both were able to make them the ROTS Top tier struggle but in their own way.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@the_holocrom:

Here: fighting mace windu along with master aayla secura. He is able to kick secura off guard while simultaneously defending against mace windu. The duel is Short, so the points they chose to display are interesting.

Aayla Secura isn't a Council-level Jedi, and I already acknowledged this fight in my earlier post:

He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency.

As far as ventress I'm not going to get into that, but ventress has tossed a few council members

Who?

and has killed many jedi masters including quinlan vos masters.

Good for her, that's definitely impressive. But it's not necessarily Council-level feats.

In dark disciple Dooku shows quinlan a cabinet with over 30 lightsabers all with jedi ventress and grievious killed.

Also good for her, but this doesn't change what I said.

Bro smh, you underestimate Kenobi so bad its almost ridiculous.

It's not underestimation, it's just calling it how it is. Kenobi at this point simply cannot handle Grievous -- not until ROTS.

Again don't sleep on ventress, I would argue ventress dispatched greivious better then maul, both were essentially in the same situation a losing battle. Best of all ventress defeated him toe to toe no tricks or gimmicks just a straight up slugfest.

I agree that she performed inherently better than Maul, but there were circumstances. As @Void_Reborn noted, Ventress was on a dark side nexus:

"The Nightsisters' rule was but a memory, but Dathomir remained steeped in dark-side powers."

-- StarWars.com: History Gallery

"The planet had a strong connection to the Force... This presence was tapped into by Allya, a rogue Jedi who had been expelled by the Order and exiled to Dathomir."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

"[Dathomir] resonates with the dark side of the Force."

-- Empire at War: Forces of Corruption

"The dark side saturates Dathomir..."

-- Star Wars Republic: Infinity's End

"DATHOMIR: Shadowy Force-sensitive world of the Nightsisters."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

Not only that, but it's a unique nexus for Nightsisters as well:

"The strange magicks of the Nightsisters are strongest when on their native world of Dathomir..."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

"Bordering dense swamplands are the massive stone fortresses of the Nightsisters, a witch clan capable of wielding unique magic fueled by the life forces of the planet."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

"The Nightsisters can tap into the magical ichor of the planet, which flows from its depths as a luminescent green mist. Wielding sorcery unique to their clan, the witches had the power to compel and transform."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

So Ventress would be double-amped. In fact, I'd go on to venture that she was probably rage-amped too. She only makes any progress against Grievous after he brutally kills a fellow Nightsister and taunts Ventress. She's even fighting like she's in a mad bloodlust, swinging wildly:

No Caption Provided

Before that, Ventress was being routinely dismissed within seconds of engaging Grievous:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Fight on Zanbar: Not as simple as being dismissed. Maul had to cut his way through several magna guards to even reach grievious in the first place.

And he did so easily, there's no evidence that he was tired out.

In their brief encounter grievious got one kick in

Exactly. Maul attacked Grievous, who halted his offensive and promptly breached his guard with a kick. In other words, he dismissed him.

He did not dismiss maul, maul made a tactical retreat after re-examining the battlefield and realized he was fighting a losing battle. A quote from thrawn sums it up perfectly. Funny that maul follows the quote almost perfect, he fled only to lay an ambush that captured both grievious and Dooku at the same time while resulting in master tiplee's death later on.

Why Maul chose not to go back and engage Grievous, and the fact that he rejoined the fight later on do not change the fact that Maul was removed from the fight by Grievous in the first place.

Later on in that day when he meets up with grievious again, he is not dismissed.

Because an armed Maul tackled an unarmed and visibly distracted Grievous, which does not qualify as a legitimate fight.

Then in their duel, it turns out it was grievious who was dismissed.

By your logic, Grievous was not dismissed. He jumped right back into the fight. But that's not what matters. What matters is the fact that Maul had to breach Grievous' guard in order to land a blow in the first place, which is in fact a supremacy showing. The effect of the blow itself falls under the physicals department. Maul outfought Grievous on Dathomir, yes, but again it was uneven ground.

That darkside nexus excuse is not that simple. Anakin skywalker is a walking nexus yet nobody is boosted around him, at least that we know of. Both he and a planet nexus are what are called Vergences in the force. Now if Anakin is present and connects with something or someone in the force it allows things to flow or see easier, example is when yoda and mace meditated with Anakin to see the visions in TCW. As the force binds and penetrates all things, a nexus/vergence then by definition is a place or spot connected to all things. however people don't get automatically boosted..in the words of finn "THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS"

How do you know that people aren't boosted around him? If he's a Force nexus, that's how it would be. A nexus of the Force is just a particular area where the Force is especially strong. Since the Force is stronger, people who are within the Force become stronger. Simple.

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@eredin12 said:

@alextheboss: This is maybe a bit of topic( although it still affects it) but may i ask did you read ROS novel, if you did, did it say that Palpatine lifted fleet or that ships did that by themselves

If you're referring to the opening scene where he tries to bribe Kylo, the novel reveals that the fleet lifting from beneath the surface was only a vision that Palpatine created, as the actual ships were not yet ready for deployment.

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@mygod000:

"Thread people usually assume that Mace would get the same boost as he did against Sidious." Yeah, this is always unfortunate to see in Mace threads. Vaapad is always either heavily wanked or low-balled. Vaapad at it's core is still a lightsaber form not some instant amplifier against any Sith and it requires the users internal darkness just as much as the opponent.

The version of Vaapad that channels inner darkness is indeed solely an instant amplifier in any battle against anyone, and Mace can use it whenever he wants to instantly boost himself to levels of power far higher than his normal ability.

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It's not underestimation, it's just calling it how it is. Kenobi at this point simply cannot handle Grievous -- not until ROTS.

Yes I second this.

So Ventress would be double-amped. In fact, I'd go on to venture that she was probably rage-amped too.

So, in other words, Grievous is outdueling someone who is potentially double or triple amped up until the very end.

She only makes any progress against Grievous after he brutally kills a fellow Nightsister and taunts Ventress.

I never knew that part of the fight existed. Why did a Nightsister randomly jump at Grievous? Also the way he dismisses her there is almost like: "Get off me for a moment *kick* I need to deal with this Nightsister", casually does so lol.

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firelordiroh

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@mygod000: Yeah I agree with you but I think Mace is also a ROTS top tier in canon as well but he's still behind Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin/Vader.

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@void_reborn:

I never knew that part of the fight existed.

Neither did I until recently. During the fight in the finished episode, it cuts away to Dooku & Talzin. Originally, there was no such cut, so the animators designed the duel that took place in the meantime. They decided to make a cut instead, so it wasn't used. Like the movie scripts, this scene doesn't contradict the finished source, and just shows us what happened off-screen.

Why did a Nightsister randomly jump at Grievous?

I'm guessing she only just arrived at the scene, and decided to help not knowing that it was a 1v1.

Also the way he dismisses her there is almost like: "Get off me for a moment *kick* I need to deal with this Nightsister", casually does so lol.

Oh yes. It's actually pretty astonishing how consistent lore has been in regard to people of that tier. Grievous has essentially dismissed the whole Kenobi-tier brigade at one point or another, and all in similar fashion. Be it Ventress, Maul or Kenobi himself.

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#127  Edited By Void_Reborn

I'm guessing she only just arrived at the scene, and decided to help not knowing that it was a 1v1.

Uninformed and unfortunate.

Oh yes. It's actually pretty astonishing how consistent lore has been in regard to people of that tier. Grievous has essentially dismissed the whole Kenobi-tier brigade at one point or another, and all in similar fashion. Be it Ventress, Maul or Kenobi himself.

One of the few consistent things about combat in TCW.

You know what, I think you're right in assuming Ventress is rage amped on top of the nexus. It just doesn't make sense that she was getting dismissed twice casually and proceeds to defeat Grievous at the end by swinging at him otherwise. Logical conclusion imo. If we go by that, that means Grievous was outfighting a dark side nexus amped Ventress up until the point of anger.

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@mygod000

my point is even those it was short...we know Mace isn't beating Maul like Sidious beat maul so it is clearly going to be a fight not a stomp.

Mace is still pre-prime here though. Pre-prime Sidious fought Savage and Maul without much difficulty and overcame rage amped Maul in their 1v1. Meanwhile, Maul can be seen holding off Aayla and Mace and finding an opening in Fodder Secura's guard while dueling the two in their brief encounter. At the same time, ROTS Windu may or may not have outdueled ROTS Palpatine. It is no certainty Mace would do worse than Sidious. He may do better.

Okay...then we agree on that Vapaad used to it limits make Mace much better, and nearly puts him in tier 9 with Yoda and Sidious.

Yes.

Yeah. It just them without the amps.

Alright, got it.

That was at the start when he was in base

Well he was not rage amped when fighting the Magnaguard either so your statement does not change my point.

If you look at most mace windu Thread people usually assume that Mace would get the same boost as he did against Sidious.

Yes, a lot of people generally assume such a thing. There is nothing suggesting this would be the case but at the same time nothing suggesting it would not. By case of how Vaapad works, channeling the darkness and emotions of both the user and the opponent, I would conclude that he would give Mace quite a significant amp. Regarding this, I also asked you how you know that: "Mace wouldn't get the same Boost From Maul anger as he did from Sidious. The rage that Sidious held is way higher than Maul's rage sorry to tell you this."

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The_Holocrom

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#129  Edited By The_Holocrom

@lord_tenebrous said:

@the_holocrom:

Here: fighting mace windu along with master aayla secura. He is able to kick secura off guard while simultaneously defending against mace windu. The duel is Short, so the points they chose to display are interesting.

Aayla Secura isn't a Council-level Jedi, and I already acknowledged this fight in my earlier post:

He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency.

As far as ventress I'm not going to get into that, but ventress has tossed a few council members

Who?

and has killed many jedi masters including quinlan vos masters.

Good for her, that's definitely impressive. But it's not necessarily Council-level feats.

In dark disciple Dooku shows quinlan a cabinet with over 30 lightsabers all with jedi ventress and grievious killed.

Also good for her, but this doesn't change what I said.

Bro smh, you underestimate Kenobi so bad its almost ridiculous.

It's not underestimation, it's just calling it how it is. Kenobi at this point simply cannot handle Grievous -- not until ROTS.

Again don't sleep on ventress, I would argue ventress dispatched greivious better then maul, both were essentially in the same situation a losing battle. Best of all ventress defeated him toe to toe no tricks or gimmicks just a straight up slugfest.

I agree that she performed inherently better than Maul, but there were circumstances. As @Void_Reborn noted, Ventress was on a dark side nexus:

"The Nightsisters' rule was but a memory, but Dathomir remained steeped in dark-side powers."

-- StarWars.com: History Gallery

"The planet had a strong connection to the Force... This presence was tapped into by Allya, a rogue Jedi who had been expelled by the Order and exiled to Dathomir."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

"[Dathomir] resonates with the dark side of the Force."

-- Empire at War: Forces of Corruption

"The dark side saturates Dathomir..."

-- Star Wars Republic: Infinity's End

"DATHOMIR: Shadowy Force-sensitive world of the Nightsisters."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

Not only that, but it's a unique nexus for Nightsisters as well:

"The strange magicks of the Nightsisters are strongest when on their native world of Dathomir..."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

"Bordering dense swamplands are the massive stone fortresses of the Nightsisters, a witch clan capable of wielding unique magic fueled by the life forces of the planet."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

"The Nightsisters can tap into the magical ichor of the planet, which flows from its depths as a luminescent green mist. Wielding sorcery unique to their clan, the witches had the power to compel and transform."

-- StarWars.com: Encyclopedia(old)

So Ventress would be double-amped. In fact, I'd go on to venture that she was probably rage-amped too. She only makes any progress against Grievous after he brutally kills a fellow Nightsister and taunts Ventress. She's even fighting like she's in a mad bloodlust, swinging wildly:

No Caption Provided

Before that, Ventress was being routinely dismissed within seconds of engaging Grievous:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Fight on Zanbar: Not as simple as being dismissed. Maul had to cut his way through several magna guards to even reach grievious in the first place.

And he did so easily, there's no evidence that he was tired out.

In their brief encounter grievious got one kick in

Exactly. Maul attacked Grievous, who halted his offensive and promptly breached his guard with a kick. In other words, he dismissed him.

He did not dismiss maul, maul made a tactical retreat after re-examining the battlefield and realized he was fighting a losing battle. A quote from thrawn sums it up perfectly. Funny that maul follows the quote almost perfect, he fled only to lay an ambush that captured both grievious and Dooku at the same time while resulting in master tiplee's death later on.

Why Maul chose not to go back and engage Grievous, and the fact that he rejoined the fight later on do not change the fact that Maul was removed from the fight by Grievous in the first place.

Later on in that day when he meets up with grievious again, he is not dismissed.

Because an armed Maul tackled an unarmed and visibly distracted Grievous, which does not qualify as a legitimate fight.

Then in their duel, it turns out it was grievious who was dismissed.

By your logic, Grievous was not dismissed. He jumped right back into the fight. But that's not what matters. What matters is the fact that Maul had to breach Grievous' guard in order to land a blow in the first place, which is in fact a supremacy showing. The effect of the blow itself falls under the physicals department. Maul outfought Grievous on Dathomir, yes, but again it was uneven ground.

That darkside nexus excuse is not that simple. Anakin skywalker is a walking nexus yet nobody is boosted around him, at least that we know of. Both he and a planet nexus are what are called Vergences in the force. Now if Anakin is present and connects with something or someone in the force it allows things to flow or see easier, example is when yoda and mace meditated with Anakin to see the visions in TCW. As the force binds and penetrates all things, a nexus/vergence then by definition is a place or spot connected to all things. however people don't get automatically boosted..in the words of finn "THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS"

How do you know that people aren't boosted around him? If he's a Force nexus, that's how it would be. A nexus of the Force is just a particular area where the Force is especially strong. Since the Force is stronger, people who are within the Force become stronger. Simple.

Here: fighting mace windu along with master aayla secura. He is able to kick secura off guard while simultaneously defending against mace windu. The duel is Short, so the points they chose to display are interesting.

Aayla Secura isn't a Council-level Jedi, and I already acknowledged this fight in my earlier post:

He briefly duels Mace, but that fight is an inconsistency.

True aayla secura is not council level nevertheless she is a jedi master, however the main take away point I was attempting to establish was that maul has fought council level jedi which was mace windu, who arguably is one of the greatest of the council. Hence by extrapolation you can argue that he can handle other council masters.

As far as ventress I'm not going to get into that, but ventress has tossed a few council members

Who?

She has tossed Luminera during the clone wars along with overpowering Kenobi and Skywalker, and ofcourse one ogf thre greatest council masters former jedi Dooku. However skywalker was not council officially but he was on par with council members.

Bro smh, you underestimate Kenobi so bad its almost ridiculous.

It's not underestimation, it's just calling it how it is. Kenobi at this point simply cannot handle Grievous -- not until ROTS.

Again where is this statement coming from. Kenobi outsmarted grievious and was able to fight him off along with magnaguards. Again heavily underestimating Kenobi.

Loading Video...

Again all that nexus stuff is an excuse. That is not how the force works at all. Now how does the nexus work? It allows mother talzin to conjure her magiks more effectively as we saw in SOD, dathomir is a unique case given that the darkside is a little different there. The nexus allows vader to open a portal between life and death as we saw in Fortress Vader, and it allows Anakin to revive Ahsoka on mortis. A nexus does not automatically improve a warriors speed, strength and skill. That is a massive misunderstanding on how it works. The nexus on Coruscant did not boost Sidious in his fight against yoda or mace, neither did it do so for Anakin.

Fight on Zanbar: Not as simple as being dismissed. Maul had to cut his way through several magna guards to even reach grievious in the first place.

And he did so easily, there's no evidence that he was tired out.

No where did I mention that he was tired, but the simple fact that as always grievious has his personal bodyguards you must deal with before fighting him.

In their brief encounter grievious got one kick in

Exactly. Maul attacked Grievous, who halted his offensive and promptly breached his guard with a kick. In other words, he dismissed him.

Bro that's ,no a dismiss. This is a dismiss: Grievious did not do this to maul. Maul did this to him...

Loading Video...

He did not dismiss maul, maul made a tactical retreat after re-examining the battlefield and realized he was fighting a losing battle. A quote from thrawn sums it up perfectly. Funny that maul follows the quote almost perfect, he fled only to lay an ambush that captured both grievious and Dooku at the same time while resulting in master tiplee's death later on.

Why Maul chose not to go back and engage Grievous, and the fact that he rejoined the fight later on do not change the fact that Maul was removed from the fight by Grievous in the first place.

Ok now its just nitpicking bro. Please man look at this logically I honestly don't know what the argument is being made. Yes grievious got a kick in. THEY ENCOUNTERED EACH OTHER TWICE AFTERWARDS. In both occasions grievious was tossed. MAUL DID COMEBACK AND FACE GRIEVIOUS ON HIS CAPITAL SHIP and rushed him. What is so hard about that? Then on dathomir they faced off again and grievious was bested. What is hard to understand? You said he chose not to go back and engage him becuase maul is not an idiot, he set an ambush up and then WENT BACK TO ENGAGE HIM. Why do you keep going back to a single kick man that's petty. DID you forget Sidious got kicked twice by maul on their duel? If you ever got into a real fight you are always going to get hit that is a given.

Later on in that day when he meets up with grievious again, he is not dismissed.

Because an armed Maul tackled an unarmed and visibly distracted Grievous, which does not qualify as a legitimate fight.

Again comciously neglecting their fight on dathomir, but ok.

Then in their duel, it turns out it was grievious who was dismissed.

By your logic, Grievous was not dismissed. He jumped right back into the fight. But that's not what matters. What matters is the fact that Maul had to breach Grievous' guard in order to land a blow in the first place, which is in fact a supremacy showing. The effect of the blow itself falls under the physicals department. Maul outfought Grievous on Dathomir, yes, but again it was uneven ground.

Yeah I didn't mean to say that, none of them were dismissed until grievious on dathomir. This term is so out of context in this situation it is best if it is dropped. Literally doesn't make any sense at all.

The main takeaway because comicvine has one of the worst reply setups I ever witnessed, is this. Maul did not run from grievous on zanbar in the words of thrawn "YOUR MAJESTY, I AM A WARRIOR. A WARRIOR MAY RETREAT, HE DOES NOT FLEE. HE MAY LIE IN AMBUSH, HE DOES NOT HIDE" I don't know what's hard to understand about this, maul followed it to the T. He retreated zanbar after realizing a losing battle, setup an ambush for Dooku and grievous and captured them both. Ventress beat grievous in a slug fest, yes grievous got a kick in because its a fight. If you ever been in one you do realize everyone gets hit, even Sidious in his duel with maul. At the end of the day when no droids fired on them ventress defeated grievous. Obiwan is contending with grievous as we clearly see, again underestimating obiwan. Lastly, that's not how a force nexus works at all. You don't go to a force nexus and automatically fight better lol. If that was the case Anakin should have never lost on Mustafar, but that is only proof to show the opposite. However most people not understanding this will make the wrong assumption that Anakin was weak, since with the nexus he couldn't defeat obiwan.

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#130  Edited By Void_Reborn

@the_holocrom:

you can argue that he can handle other council masters.

The comic fight is too brief to conclude anything but we don't need it to know that, yes, Maul can contend with and handle other council members.

She has tossed Luminera during the clone wars along with overpowering Kenobi and Skywalker, and ofcourse one ogf thre greatest council masters former jedi Dooku. However skywalker was not council officially but he was on par with council members.

Hate to break it to you but Luminara is not a council member and she is also fodder like Aayla Secura. Ventress overpowering Kenobi and Skywalker was one instance due to a rage amp. Otherwise she tends to get outdueled by both of them in their fights. Also, as far as I know, Ventress has done terribly every time she fights Dooku. Failed to break him with the help of Savage, was stomped in a 1v1 right after that and thrown out of a window by a blinded, poisoned, impaired, unprepared and ambushed Dooku even while she had the help of 3 nightsisters.

Again where is this statement coming from. Kenobi outsmarted grievious and was able to fight him off along with magnaguards. Again heavily underestimating Kenobi.

Grievous outfought Kenobi 5 times during TCW and that scene you posted is one of them when he lands the kick after Obi-Wan jumped over him. As by virtue of plot and Grievous being a cocky bastard in that iteration, he proceeds to say "The story of Obi-Wan Kenobi ends here" and spins his blades instead of attacking Obi-Wan while he is on the ground. Then he gets force pushed away a few seconds later. This happens a lot of times but it doesn't change the fact Grievous outfights Obi-Wan. When Grievous actually attacks and pins a downed Kenobi this happens:

Loading Video...

This is also Kenobi who is VERY close to his prime version compared to the distance between him in the clip you showed to ROTS Kenobi if that changes anything.

No where did I mention that he was tired, but the simple fact that as always grievious has his personal bodyguards you must deal with before fighting him.

Why bother stating that then? Everyone knows that it's just a no shit Sherlock moment. Grievous always opens up with his Magnaguards whenever he has them except vs Eeth Koth. The way you said it makes it seem like you're trying to say Maul was in some way put at a disadvantage because he had to go through the Magnaguards to get to Grievous.

Bro that's ,no a dismiss.

Definition of dismiss: "To send away". That's what he did lol. He sent Maul flying away, is that not what happened?

Another definition of dismiss is: to treat as unworthy of serious consideration. which is exactly what he did to Ventress when he looked away from the bladelock and casually kicked her aside to focus on defending himself from the attacking Nightsister. Dismiss is very accurately used in BOTH of these situations.

MAUL DID COMEBACK AND FACE GRIEVIOUS ON HIS CAPITAL SHIP and rushed him. What is so hard about that?

Nothing is so hard it's just that this feat is irrelevant because Grievous is visibly confused and surprised during the whole situation. He feels that something is off and is ambushed by Maul out of nowhere. Grievous is taken by surprise and unprepared while Maul rushed him. This is nothing to go off of that suggests how they would fair against each other in a normal fight. Also, just in case you try to use the fact that Grievous felt something might be off as a way to suggest he was prepared for Maul but was still successfully ambushed, it was a fleeting thought. Grievous considered the possibility that something was not right at the moment and may have pondered on it but he was in no way prepared for what happened or expected it.

Then on dathomir they faced off again and grievious was bested. What is hard to understand?

Again, nothing is so hard to understand. The fact is, Grievous wasn't bested. He was visibly distracted and Maul is on a potent dark side nexus. Maul got a force push in on a distracted Grievous while being amped.

Yeah I didn't mean to say that, none of them were dismissed until grievious on dathomir. This term is so out of context in this situation it is best if it is dropped. Literally doesn't make any sense at all.

Actually the term 'dismissed' is totally accurate for almost everything here. Even Maul force pushing Grievous away is a dismiss. The thing is it wasn't done while both characters are on an even playing field and while one of the two was not completely focused on the fight so it can't be used as a feat to suggest anything about what Maul's performance against Grievous would be.

The main takeaway because comicvine has one of the worst reply setups I ever witnessed

Yeah man it's a real hassle replying to everything like this lmfao.

"YOUR MAJESTY, I AM A WARRIOR. A WARRIOR MAY RETREAT, HE DOES NOT FLEE. HE MAY LIE IN AMBUSH, HE DOES NOT HIDE" I don't know what's hard to understand about this, maul followed it to the T. He retreated zanbar after realizing a losing battle

Yes, Maul, like any remotely sensible individual with any cognitive capability who witnessed their army get slaughtered as the opposing forces begin to close in on your last troops, decided to make a tactical retreat.

If you ever been in one you do realize everyone gets hit,

Not trying to nitpick but there have been duels where nobody got a hit in. For example the brief duel between Maul and Mace we keep using. Neither Maul nor Mace hit each other. Another example was the brief duel between Qui Gon and Maul on Tatooine.

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@mygod000: Yeah I agree with you but I think Mace is also a ROTS top tier in canon as well but he's still behind Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin/Vader.

Mace is definitely > Anakin as of ROTS. Vader in later iterations may be superior to Mace.

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#132  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@the_holocrom:

True aayla secura is not council level nevertheless she is a jedi master,

True, however that's not really enough.

However the main take away point I was attempting to establish was that maul has fought council level jedi which was mace windu, who arguably is one of the greatest of the council. Hence by extrapolation you can argue that he can handle other council masters

There are multiple ways to attack this fight. On the one hand, you could argue that the duel was too brief, and thus, we cannot draw any conclusions from it. On the other, you can argue that it portrays Maul as Mace's superior, and is therefore an inconsistency.

She has tossed Luminera during the clone wars

Luminara isn't Council level, and Ventress wasn't doing well against her. Ventress initially ambushes Luminara, injuring her with a blast of hot steam to the eye. Then she charges Luminara, who simply dances around her:

No Caption Provided

Ventress attacks, Luminara outmanuevers her, then stonewalls the next couple of strikes. At one point, you can see Ventress nearly runs off the cliff.

This whole dancing around thing is similar to how Dooku outmanuevered Savage:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

In anycase, after being repeatedly outmanuevered by an injured Luminara, the duel pauses, and Ventress taunts her opponent. However, Luminara then makes this remark as to Ventress' abilities:

"Even with my vision clouded, I recognize the fighting style of Count Dooku. Your version is unrefined... amateurish, sloppy."

In other words, "you're trash." Not exactly a flattering analysis, and it definitely doesn't sound like Ventress is actually pressuring Luminara.

Ventress only does well after this scathing criticism -- she visibly becomes enraged, screaming in anger as she attacks. It's confirmed in other source material that this rage empowered Ventress and caused her ability to compete with Luminara:

"Luminara's strict discipline makes it hard for her to believe that a wild, untrained user of the Force like Asajj Ventress could ever be her equal in lightsaber combat. Aboard the Tranquility, she discovers her error: Ventress' rage gives her surprising power."

-- The Clone Wars: Character Encyclopedia

In reality, base Ventress was doing poorly against an injured Luminara -- given the dialogue, I'd wager that Luminara wasn't struggling either. Early war Ventress is good, but she's not that good. Luminara should be around the level of early war Kenobi, who also experienced no true issues against Ventress. By the end of the war, Ventress is much better than her earlier incarnations. Just like how Kenobi by ROTS has improved in his ability to duel Grievous.

along with overpowering Kenobi

Early TCW, Kenobi casually toyed with Ventress:

"It was a lot of fun to do this scene with James. Kenobi, most of the time has to play the serious one. But here we get to see him relax and just have a bit of fun banter with Ventress. He's very relaxed, he ultimately is in no danger from her. He's just buying time for Anakin."

-- Dave Filoni

Late TCW, she put up a fight but still lost.

And Skywalker

Ventress has consistently stalemated Anakin. Kamino, Teth, Yavin, above Sullust & the comics. He typically outfights her in a close duel, but she overpowers him in the Force.

and ofcourse one ogf thre greatest council masters former jedi Dooku.

In legends EU, she could be casually one-shot by Dooku, and in TCW, he stomped her.

However skywalker was not council officially but he was on par with council members.

By ROTS, yes. But not at this point, given his relative parity with Ventress, and by default, Maul & Kenobi.

Again where is this statement coming from. Kenobi outsmarted grievious and was able to fight him off along with magnaguards. Again heavily underestimating Kenobi.

Like Void said, Grievous has outfought Kenobi numerous times in TCW. On Kamino:

No Caption Provided

Above Saleucami:

No Caption Provided

On Saleucami:

No Caption Provided

Aboard the Negotiator:

No Caption Provided

On Utapau:

No Caption Provided

So yeah. Just like how Ventress doesn't reach Kenobi's level until the late stages of TCW, Kenobi doesn't reach Grievous' level until the end of the war.

Bro that's ,no a dismiss. This is a dismiss:

That's just dismissing someone with the Force, which is not representative of your combat abilities unless it is done mid-fight. This is a dismissal:

No Caption Provided

Vader engages, and swiftly breaches his opponent's guard, smashing them away with a physical strike.

Grievious did not do this to maul. Maul did this to him...

Maul did it mid-fight, so props to him -- he had to spare the necessary focus to perform the action while dealing with Grievous, and breach his guard. But using the Force on someone mid-fight is not as impressive as landing a kick. It takes less skill, and involves less risk. Grievous also had to spare the necessary focus to perform the action while dealing with Maul, and breach his guard, but Grievous is also setting himself off-balance while exposing his leg.

By your logic, Grievous didn't do anything noteworthy to Maul since the latter could have kept fighting, but the same is true for the fight on Dathomir.

Again all that nexus stuff is an excuse. That is not how the force works at all. Now how does the nexus work? It allows mother talzin to conjure her magiks more effectively as we saw in SOD, dathomir is a unique case given that the darkside is a little different there. The nexus allows vader to open a portal between life and death as we saw in Fortress Vader, and it allows Anakin to revive Ahsoka on mortis. A nexus does not automatically improve a warriors speed, strength and skill. That is a massive misunderstanding on how it works.

Like I said before, a nexus is where the Force is especially strong. Force users are connected to the Force via the midi-chlorians. It's just plain logic that where the Force is stronger, so are Force users, who are just weaker presences in the Force.

It's outright stated that the unique Dathomir nexus amps the Nightsisters' abilities, and among other examples, Darth Plagueis attributed the seemingly impossible feats of the ancient Sith to the fact that the dark side had a stronger presence in the galaxy then. And, the increasing darkness of the Force in the prequels weakened the powers of the Jedi.

The nexus on Coruscant did not boost Sidious in his fight against yoda or mace, neither did it do so for Anakin.

Coruscant is a light side nexus, albeit an incredibly weak one.

Ok now its just nitpicking bro. Please man look at this logically I honestly don't know what the argument is being made. Yes grievious got a kick in.

Landing a kick mid-fight is an indication of superiority, because it's a breach of guard, just like a slash or disarming. Maul didn't just allow himself to be kicked. Grievous had to actively rip through his guard, sacrificing balance and exposing himself in order to hit Maul. And he had to do it without getting his leg chopped off, or having Maul dodge the blow and kill Grievous while he's vulnerable. That's how a lightsaber duel works.

Just like with any other breach of guard, the quicker it's done, the easier it was, and the wider the gap between the two fighters. There's a difference between disarming someone in 3 seconds, and disarming someone in 30 seconds. It's the same with kicks, cuts, or any other breach of guard.

Grievous plainly asserted his superiority in that fight.

THEY ENCOUNTERED EACH OTHER TWICE AFTERWARDS. In both occasions grievious was tossed. MAUL DID COMEBACK AND FACE GRIEVIOUS ON HIS CAPITAL SHIP and rushed him.

Doesn't change the fact that Grievous had the upper hand in their fight prior. And, Grievous was unarmed and not battle-ready when Maul attacked him:

No Caption Provided

What is so hard about that? Then on dathomir they faced off again and grievious was bested. What is hard to understand? You said he chose not to go back and engage him becuase maul is not an idiot, he set an ambush up and then WENT BACK TO ENGAGE HIM.

According to you, Grievous wasn't bested since he came right back and wanted to keep fighting.

Not to mention, it took an amped Maul much longer to BFR Grievous with a less impressive breach of guard than it took Grievous to dismiss an unamped Maul with a more impressive breach of guard on Zanbar.

Why do you keep going back to a single kick man that's petty. DID you forget Sidious got kicked twice by maul on their duel? If you ever got into a real fight you are always going to get hit that is a given.

Maul was rage-amped when he kicked Sidious. In his base form, he's not able to compete with his former master.

If you get in a swordfight, and try to hit someone, you will die, no matter how skilled you are. Lightsaber duels are much more extended and physical than real swordfights, but the general principles still apply. Landing a hit is an indication of superiority.

The main takeaway because comicvine has one of the worst reply setups I ever witnessed, is this

Unfortunately true. It's all a bit complicated.

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#134  Edited By Void_Reborn

@lord_tenebrous Yeah Grievous outfought him again on Saleucami. Forgot about that. That battle increases the tally to 6 times now.

Obi-Wan has been dismissed or outfought by him on several occasions and we already have the necessary information to put Grievous > Maul. Ventress' performance against Dooku when trying to kill him is even worse than Grievous' performance in regular sparring. It is also stated that Grievous is a more powerful and formidable opponent than Ventress in Dark Disciple along with what we know of her and Durge losing to Grievous in a 2v1 prior to TCW and how that scales to the time of the series. That being said, I have also argued in the past that Grievous > Skywalker in both TCW and their prime ROTS versions or with Legends included. Regarding lightsaber dueling. With all of this that we can gather, Grievous is probably one of the best fighters in his tier during TCW.

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NOOOOOO

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@firelordiroh said:

@mygod000: Yeah I agree with you but I think Mace is also a ROTS top tier in canon as well but he's still behind Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin/Vader.

Mace is definitely > Anakin as of ROTS. Vader in later iterations may be superior to Mace.

base Anakin yes. Rage Amped Anakin nope.

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#137  Edited By Void_Reborn

@mygod000 said:
@void_reborn said:
@firelordiroh said:

@mygod000: Yeah I agree with you but I think Mace is also a ROTS top tier in canon as well but he's still behind Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin/Vader.

Mace is definitely > Anakin as of ROTS. Vader in later iterations may be superior to Mace.

base Anakin yes. Rage Amped Anakin nope.

You regard rage amped Anakin as if he obtains an automatic boost in every way and advantage in every scenario. Not the case. While it works to overpower and bust through the defenses and guard of individuals incapable of handling the assault, bolstering Anakin's strikes in his anger, a skilled duelist who can handle this onslaught can find breaches in his attacks and gaps in his emotionally motivated and potentially unfocused offensive. With the existence of Vaapad, this will serve to further draw the fight into Mace's favor. Not saying Mace has an easier chance with rage amped Anakin than base Anakin but I see the result as being no different.

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@mygod000 said:
@void_reborn said:
@firelordiroh said:

@mygod000: Yeah I agree with you but I think Mace is also a ROTS top tier in canon as well but he's still behind Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin/Vader.

Mace is definitely > Anakin as of ROTS. Vader in later iterations may be superior to Mace.

base Anakin yes. Rage Amped Anakin nope.

You regard rage amped Anakin as if he obtains an automatic boost in every way and advantage in every scenario. Not the case. While it works to overpower and bust through the defenses and guard of individuals incapable of handling the assault, bolstering Anakin's strikes in his anger, a skilled duelist who can handle this onslaught can find breaches in his attacks and gaps in his emotionally motivated and potentially unfocused offensive. With the existence of Vaapad, this will serve to further draw the fight into Mace's favor. Not saying Mace has an easier chance with rage amped Anakin than base Anakin but I see the result as being no different.

That what the Dark side Does...it boost your power making you much more powerful.

Yoda acknowledge Dooku's powers has gotten a great deal Stronger since he last saw him, implying that Dark side Strengthened him a good deal.

like I said Anakin has the most potential in Star wars. I am not saying When Anakin wins against anyone, I am saying he has the most potential power in the series. when Anakin is Rage Amped with the dark side he is mentality unbalanced and Yes, Mace could exploit Anakin's Attacks, and unfocused offensive. My main point is that Dark side Anakin is more powerful than Mace.

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@mygod000:

That what the Dark side Does...it boost your power making you much more powerful.

Yes I did not deny that but I did say it does not improve absolutely everything the duelist has to offer. There are definitive drawbacks especially in someone like Anakin who is no stranger to losing control when digging deep and tapping into the darkness inside him.

like I said Anakin has the most potential in Star wars.

Yes he certainly does but key word: potential

Potential is something you have the ability to gain after practice, training or other methods. It is not a power you currently have. Entering a rage amped state does not bring Anakin close to or at his full potential either. It just bolsters his power and abilities but leaves him vulnerable to the disadvantage of fighting with emotion as the main backbone of his offensive. It can be as much a bad thing as it is a good thing and this applies to everyone who does not have a very high level of self control. Whether or not it results in victory or proves to be the reason of failure depends on the circumstances and combatants in question. In this instance, I believe Mace would defeat ROTS Anakin whether Rage amped or not. Do you agree?

My main point is that Dark side Anakin is more powerful than Mace.

I agree then.

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MyGod000

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#140  Edited By MyGod000

@void_reborn:

Yes I did not deny that but I did say it does not improve absolutely everything the duelist has to offer. There are definitive drawbacks especially in someone like Anakin who is no stranger to losing control when digging deep and tapping into the darkness inside him.

I agree with the overall point of this post you made here and that is that Their are draw backs to Anakin just tapping into the dark side. However, there is none for Vader who is far better in control of his emotions than Anakin, as well is far more experienced than Anakin, and Far more powerful than Dark side Anakin.

Yes he certainly does but key word: potential

Potential is something you have the ability to gain after practice, training or other methods. It is not a power you currently have. Entering a rage amped state does not bring Anakin close to or at his full potential either. It just bolsters his power and abilities but leaves him vulnerable to the disadvantage of fighting with emotion as the main backbone of his offensive. It can be as much a bad thing as it is a good thing and this applies to everyone who does not have a very high level of self control. Whether or not it results in victory or proves to be the reason of failure depends on the circumstances and combatants in question. In this instance, I believe Mace would defeat ROTS Anakin whether Rage amped or not. Do you agree?

I agree to a degree. Only because In a "what If" They had the Son of Mortis give Anakin Essences of the full power of the Dark side...which boosted Anakin to his full powerful to the point he could Solo Both ROTS Sidious and Yoda at the same time with Mid diff.

Other than that I agree you do have to train for it...which Dark side Anakin was motivated to do and become the most powerful person in the universe.

I agree then.

okay than...so Like My argument was that Lords of the Sith Vader>Dark side Anakin.

Mace was able to defeat and nearly Kill ROTS Sidious. in turn Vader would easily beat able to do that, just of the fact 5 years After ROTS Vader surpassed Anakin>Vapaad Mace.

Vader still had like 9 more years till he reached him Prime and got even more powerful so their is no way ROTS Sidious wins here unless he can summon as much force lightning as possible into Vader's Suit to overload it and shut it down then he can win but if not Vader wins handily against him.

I am not saying Vader stomps by any means...but he does win with mid diff since This Vader we are discussing is 18 years more powerful than Lords of the Sith Vader who Surpassed Anakin powers, who in turn is more powerful than Vapaad Mace, who is in league of Yoda and ROTS Sidious and was able to defeat Sidious with extremely high diff.

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@lord_tenebrous: Good evidence and supporting sources. I see what you mean as far as ventress and luminara and other things. You are knowledgable and wise my friend. Let's agree to disagree on some things. Nevertheless that vader and cere fight is 100% dismissal lol. From now on that is the epitome of comparison for future debates pertaining to dismissals lol.

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@the_holocrom:

Good evidence and supporting sources. I see what you mean as far as ventress and luminara and other things. You are knowledgable and wise my friend

Thanks, that's very kind. Your arguments were logicial and well-supported too.

Let's agree to disagree on some things.

Alrighty, sounds good.

Nevertheless that vader and cere fight is 100% dismissal lol. From now on that is the epitome of comparison for future debates pertaining to dismissals lol.

Oh yes, without a doubt. That's as decisive as it gets.

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@lord_tenebrous: Good evidence and supporting sources. I see what you mean as far as ventress and luminara and other things. You are knowledgable and wise my friend. Let's agree to disagree on some things. Nevertheless that vader and cere fight is 100% dismissal lol. From now on that is the epitome of comparison for future debates pertaining to dismissals lol.

Wow I get no recognition. Okay, I see how it is. :(

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@lord_tenebrous I wanted to ask you something. What makes you say TPM Maul > TCW Maul and in what aspects is the former superior to the latter?

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Sidious couldn't even beat Mace Windu, so I'll go with Vader.

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@the_holocrom said:

@lord_tenebrous: Good evidence and supporting sources. I see what you mean as far as ventress and luminara and other things. You are knowledgable and wise my friend. Let's agree to disagree on some things. Nevertheless that vader and cere fight is 100% dismissal lol. From now on that is the epitome of comparison for future debates pertaining to dismissals lol.

Wow I get no recognition. Okay, I see how it is. :(

Maybe he's preparing something extra special for you

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@lord_tenebrous I wanted to ask you something. What makes you say TPM Maul > TCW Maul and in what aspects is the former superior to the latter?

The fact that Maul hasn't used a lightsaber in over 12 years logically makes him significantly past his prime as a swordfighter, and tbh this shows in his feats. Losing badly to Grievous, losing to Ventress who has lost badly to Grievous, and near-equaling a pre-prime Kenobi who also lost badly to Grievous. Grievous on the other hand is roughly Council-tier, and TPM Maul has outfought both ANH Vader and Qui-Gon Jinn, who are also Council-tier.

In regard to the Force, TCW Maul should be a lot weaker too. We know that as per Lucas, losing parts of your living form results in a loss of power and potential. Anakin lost his arm and legs at the knee, and lost massive amounts of potential, as well as a fair amount of power. Maul in TPM lost more body mass than Anakin, meaning that according to Lucas' rule, he lost significant amounts of power and potential. More than Anakin, and he had less potential than Anakin to begin with.

So, after experiencing this substantial power/potential loss, Maul doesn't train or anything(unlike Vader), he spends well over a decade in a state of insanity. Clearly he wouldn't improve. In fact, he probably got worse. At best, he stagnated. In TCW/SOD, he's only around for a few months. Even if he trained 24/7 for the entirety of that time period, it still wouldn't be nearly enough to regain his former power, much less surpass it. It took Vader years to surpass his former prime, and Maul has even less talent than Vader. Much less time and resources too.

If Maul in TCW somehow managed to become more powerful than his TPM incarnation, he would have accomplished in months what Vader took years to do, and he would have done so with less talent, less training and training of worse quality at that.

Oh, and he would also be less physically powerful. TPM Maul was shredded, TCW Maul is in decent shape but he's generally a bit scrawny.

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#148  Edited By The_Holocrom

@void_reborn: lmao my bad man you too, 100 percent. Both of you guys are knowledgeable and have abundance of sources. If you guys are ever interested send me a message and I can give you access to any star wars audiobook you want from legends to canon. From the ancient sith before even revan to the rise of Skywalker and every story in between. Star wars fan to star wars fan.

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@lord_tenebrous: I see your point. That's a logical conclusion to make. I'd think Maul was definitely in his physical prime during TPM and perhaps in lightsaber dueling as well. I always wondered why he never chose to pick up the saberstaff again during TCW. Maybe he just never found one.