Darth Vader (ROTJ) vs Darth Sidious (ROTS)

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The_Holocrom

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@alextheboss: man I'm doing it on a mobile phone, I don't see the image symbol

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The_Holocrom

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@alextheboss: ok, I'ma have to do it on computer. I was on mobile phone

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MyGod000

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@alextheboss:

You said it in a few weeks ago in another thread.

"how is someone surprised for a whole 2 mins? that doesn't even make Sense at all, the point was Sidious couldn't break out of Vader's Grip, which was strong enough to overpower Sidious. which means Sidious Couldn't overpower Vader."

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-maul-and-darth-vader-vs-darth-sidious-2067937/?page=4

So you actually said it was 2 minutes, which is even worse. You made me waist my time, but I proved you were a liar, and now I caught you in your lie. Either that our you have a bad memory and I just proved you just say random crap to make Vader seem stronger than he is.

Again, I never said he pinned him for 2 mins. I asked you where was it ever said he was held for a minute since you said I said this. I asked a legit Question, How was he surprised for 2 mins. You are lying again.

But you are going on every thread saying Vader is stronger... So this argument makes no sense at all. It makes me sense your rationality.

context. I said Lord of the Sith Vader, rebels Vader, and ROTJ Vader are stronger and more powerful than ROTS Sidious. the Fact that they are massively above Dark side ROTS Anakin who is easily ROTS Sidious level and up. The Novel proves that ROTJ Vader was literally in ROTJ Sidious level the fact that Sidious was scared of him and could do nothing but try and make clone bodies of himself to survive him proves my point.

So what is so irrational about that? Why do you lie so much?

You are right, you actually said two minutes LMAO. So yeah, there really isn't much proof debating you if you just lie about the things you say and then call me a liar when I call you out is there?

you said 1 min so then you lied yourself. Trying to exaggerate the situation when I legit asked a question...how was he surprise when He can literally foresee events? if anyone Rationality needs to be questioned it is your.

There is no definite proof either way. I have given plenty of evidence on why Palpatine threw the fight before, I'm not going to get into that again.

Until there is proof he didn't throw the fight, using it as an anti feat for him doesn't hold much weight.

then why are you making claims that you can't even back up or prove? THAT IS THE Definition of Headcanon.

you make no sense what so ever, He lost to Mace. ROTS Dark side Amp Anakin>>Mace Windu. So by logic Anakin is at least ROTS Sidious tier when amped by the dark side which Is what I was saying which puts Lords of the Sith Vader above ROTS Sidious. So rebels Vader, and up would handily beat ROTS Sidious...and saying otherwise is downplaying.

Yoda doesn't know that, and nothing in the movie even directly states that.

Proof? Snoke was able to Sense Kylo Ren being unbalanced after he Killed his Father...

Anakin didn't stomp him.

He pretty much did. because it was saying Dooku got Overwhelmed by Anakin.

No Caption Provided

It took most of Dooku's Power to not get cut in half and to meet Anakin blade. Note that it also stated Anakin was getting stronger.

The Anakin that overwhelmed Dooku is weaker than KF Vader who was much more powerful. Yoda didn't even do that to Dooku Defenses and he knew Dooku fighting style so this directly put Anakin in league with Yoda and ROTS Sidious.

He isn't stronger than Sidiouis, and both Yoda and the Emperor acknowledged this.

yes he is, the proof is above when he did Something Yoda didn't do. Anakin doesn't have as much knowledge of the force as they have but he is clearly in the level of power and above.

No, Dooku is old and powerful. But his age is still a hindrance. Anakin was physically superior and he used it to his advantage.

The force doesn't really care about how good your physical Physique is. Yoda is almost 900 years old and can still out duel 98% of the Jedi Order who are in their prime by just using the force.

Anakin Beat Dooku plain and simple like Mace Beat Sidious Plain and simple.

He was completely scared, he just wanted to get rid of a threat. Dooku + Ventress would beat Anakin anyways.

Maybe Base Anakin, but not Dark side Amp Anakin.

i already showed you Anakin taking on both Dooku and Ventress and out running them.

Obi-wan beat dark side Anakin, so no.

Yea he beat him, just like Rey Beat Kylo even those it stated Kylo was massively more powerful than she was in multiple source. Just because Obi-wan lured Anakin into doing something Foolish to beat him doesn't mean anakin isn't way more powerful than he is.

that is the trope in Star wars the strongest doesn't always win. otherwise ROTS Sidious would have beaten Mace windu, Anakin would have destroyed Obi-wan, Kylo in Force Awakens would have destroyed Rey.

I never said it was proof, but Anakin beat Dooku just like he did in ep 3, and it was a mental attack on Yoda that was supposed to be realistic.

then why even tried to use that vision in an argument to even insinuate that The events would happen that way? that doesn't even make any sense. the point is it was a Vision, and that Anakin from TCW is much weaker than KF Vader/Anakin and Dark side Amp ROTS Anakin.

That's a bit different as that's just a personal vision, while Yoda's vision was a result of sith alchemy.

But like I said, I don't think Yoda's vision is proof. I just think with current canon feats that was pretty accurate.

Sidious also casually force choked Dooku. There is no reason he can't catch Anakin off guard with the force and zap him with lightning.

again, that doesn't make any sense at all. you are using double Standards in your arguments. they were both Visions. Sidious choked a Dooku who didn't even look to defend himself... Anakin force pushed Dooku if you want to go there.

Anakin would block that lightning.

It clearly wasn't easy. Look at his face in the gif you posted.

Okay, the point is he did it and Vader is far more powerful than Mace anyways.

Rey was amped by all of the jedi, and it was shown two lightsabers were better than one.

novel implied that Sidious was "All" the Sith long before TROS after he killed his master.

Regardless of Rey being a Conduit for the Jedi, Sidious was already All of the Sith even when he fought Mace.

All jedi Rey is arguably more powerful than Vader. Mace is weaker than Vader, but Palpatine purposefully stopped shooting force lightning, so Mace didn't actually overpower it.

Vader can definitely block Palpatine's lightning, but he can always get caught off guard mid fight and get his circuits fried.

Possibility. as I said Clone Sidious is weaker than the actually Sidious and it was stated by the actor who played Sidious that He was massively weaker. He couldn't even channel force lightning or anything, but he was still way more powerful than Rey and Kylo where.

That makes no sense what you just said how is he going to get caught of guard? and why didn't he just do that with Mace?

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AlexTheBoss

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@mygod000:

Again, I never said he pinned him for 2 mins. I asked you where was it ever said he was held for a minute since you said I said this. I asked a legit Question, How was he surprised for 2 mins. You are lying again.

Dude wtf...

The conversation went like this. You said Vader overpowered Palpatine with the force. Then I said it was because Palpatine was surprised. Then you asked how he could be surprised for a whole two minutes, which would imply you meant that's how long Vader was overpowering for. When I called you out for it on that thread you never even said that wasn't what you meant.

So no, you are either completely confused on what you actually said, or you are desperately trying to continue your lie even though I flat out showed you what you said.

So what is so irrational about that?

You said I was bias for going on a bunch of threads saying a certain thing, but that's what you are also doing. So trying to prove I'm the bias one by saying I do something that you also do is irrational. I didn't say what you were actually said in those threads were irrational. Your lack of reading comprehension is what keeps taking our debate off topic. You probably still don't even know what I mean and will say something else that's completely irrelevant in the next post.

Why do you lie so much?

At this point I think I'm just debating with a child. I asked you for your age before and you didn't answer so I assume you are young.

then why are you making claims that you can't even back up or prove? THAT IS THE Definition of Headcanon.

I'm not making the claim you are. You are saying Mace beat Palpatine. I'm not claiming Palpatine definitely threw the fight, I'm saying we don't know for sure so we can't use it as an anti feat. There is plenty of evidence to back this up, so it isn't head canon. It would only be head canon if I said it was a fact.

you make no sense what so ever, He lost to Mace. ROTS Dark side Amp Anakin>>Mace Windu

If Mace actually won, that would just mean he is better than Anakin.

yes he is, the proof is above when he did Something Yoda didn't do.

Yoda would have beaten Dooku if the fight kept going.

Yoda is almost 900 years old and can still out duel 98% of the Jedi Order who are in their prime by just using the force.

Yeah, but when he was really old, like in the original trilogy, he seemed past his prime.

i already showed you Anakin taking on both Dooku and Ventress and out running them.

When did you show this? And out running them doesn't mean he is stronger. It just means he can run faster.

And when two people work together they don't run faster.

Yea he beat him, just like Rey Beat Kylo even those it stated Kylo was massively more powerful than she was in multiple source.

Kylo was also injured. Anakin wasn't. Obi-wan was also mentally unstable considering he was fighting his best friend who just betrayed him.

Just because Obi-wan lured Anakin into doing something Foolish to beat him doesn't mean anakin isn't way more powerful than he is.

I agree Anakin was stronger, but even in their force push clash they were even. Obi-wan was almost as good as Anakin, but Anakin was a bit better but let his cockyness get the better of him.

novel implied that Sidious was "All" the Sith long before TROS after he killed his master.

Regardless of Rey being a Conduit for the Jedi, Sidious was already All of the Sith even when he fought Mace.

Ok? That either means all of the sith are weak or he wasn't using their power at that time/holding back. Regardless of his power, all jedi Rey is stronger than regular Rey.

That makes no sense what you just said how is he going to get caught of guard?

I mean in the middle of the fight he can try to surprise him with lightning like he did with Yoda, which knocked Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand.

and why didn't he just do that with Mace?

Because I don't think Palpatine wanted to beat Mace Windu until Anakin showed up.

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MyGod000

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@alextheboss:

Ventress couldn't even Beat Dooku even after she and her 6 other Night Sisters blinded him with a Dart that took away his sight.

Anakin proved to be way above Dooku when he was using the dark side, Ventress would get chopped down quickly if it Took Most of Dooku powers just to meet Dark side Anakin Blows, then Ventress is of no help in that fight when she can barely handle a Toying Dooku, or Blind Dooku when she has 6 of her sisters helping.

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AlexTheBoss

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@mygod000: The night sisters were useless. Her and Savage almost beat Dooku.

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Void_Reborn

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@mygod000: The night sisters were useless. Her and Savage almost beat Dooku.

Indeed, Nightsisters are complete fodder. Grievous slaughtered nearly their entire population on Dathomir. Savage was getting shut down the entire fight though. It turned from a 2v1 with Ventress having a useless teammate to a sith free for all after Savage gave into his rage and attacked them both. A few minutes later, Ventress chased Dooku and got stomped in a brief duel. Clearly not on the same level.

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Void_Reborn

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Mind you, that duel with Ventress and Savage against Dooku was around the same length if not longer than Anakin and Obi-Wan. If Dooku was tired out and Anakin battered him down to get the win, clearly Ventress and Savage are not on their level as Dooku was either not tired or was tired but still capable of easily defeating Ventress.

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AlexTheBoss

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@void_reborn: I agree, I don't think either of them are on Dooku's level. But Dooku was clearly having trouble dealing with both of them at once.

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Jerrah13

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As stated in Darth Vader: Sith Lord, the Sith were constantly testing each other and remained at odds while they were looking for weaknesses to exploit. Palpatine maintained his position as the master, but was cautious of Vader's strength. Even so, he continually tested Vader and pushed him to become more powerful with the dark side throughout his time with the Empire.

Multiple statements and feats now give Vader rough parity with Palpatine and the 20% gap between them is no more, though Palps remains the superior Sith.

Vader wins, high-difficulty.

alextheboss said:

There is no definite proof either way. I have given plenty of evidence on why Palpatine threw the fight before, I'm not going to get into that again.

There most certainly is. And if by "plenty of evidence" you mean your rejection of official lore and use of personal interpretation, then sure, you have "plenty of evidence."

alextheboss said:

Show me where Disney canon states this.

"Upon discovering that Palpatine was a Sith, Mace forms a Jedi strike team to arrest him. While his comrades fall, Mace is nearly successful. However, Anakin arrives and defends Palpatine, allowing an opening for Palpatine to kill Mace." - The Complete Visual Dictionary New Edition, pg.27

"It was Anakin Skywalker who severed Mace Windu's arm, allowing Darth Sidious to win the fight with a blast of Force lightning." - Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force, pg.61

"Mace cornered Sidious, and the Sith Lord unleashed torrents of dark Force lightning at his opponent, some of which were deflected back at Sidious, forever scarring his face." - Darth Sidious biography gallery.

"Force lightning is a dark side ability used to torture, disfigure, and even kill one’s victims." - Star Wars databank, Force lightning

"When Jedi Master Mace Windu deflects Sidous's Force lightning back at him, his face is forever transformed. The disfigurement further fuels Sidious's hatred for the Jedi, as it serves as a reminder of his own weakness and mortality." - The Visual Dictionary, pg.59

The same proof I posted over a month ago is still canon and isn't going away. As for your response, would you care to lie some more? Or will you just hide away for another three weeks, let it blow over and then resurface in a new thread, so we can do this dance all over again?

@mygod000

You can't shift Burden of proof on me. you are the one who claimed Sidious throw the fight. I am telling you no such thing was ever said in Disney canon so you need to show me the proof of where you got that idea from. If you mention George Lucas Just know he also stated dark side Anakin beats Sidious.

You'll have to forgive him for the mental snafu. He has a tendency to "forget" anytime he's proven wrong. Or worse, goes on a month-long smoke break whenever he's asked to provide supporting evidence for his claims.

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AlexTheBoss

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@jerrah13: Allowing someone to win and needing something to win are two entirely different things. Palpatine's face being scared from the lightning or not is irrelevant to him winning or lossing, but that sources that say it was from the lightning came out before the rise of skywalker, and now it's confirmed his body in the rise of skywalker is a clone, yet it still received the same scarred look even though it wasn't hit by lightning.

The same proof I posted over a month ago is still canon and isn't going away. As for your response, would you care to lie some more? Or will you just hide away for another three weeks, let it blow over and then resurface in a new thread, so we can do this dance all over again?

First off

No Caption Provided

Second off, I remember someone posting all of that same stuff to be before, which I guess was you, but I already countered it all, like I just did now. Don't act like because you think you won the debate means I decided to revert back to my old way of thinking. You never changed my mind because your evidence was non conclusive, so why would I have a different opinion now?

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The_Holocrom

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@alextheboss:

@the_holocrom:

not true at all. Rebels ahsoka is a better duelist then Maul in his fight with sidious and even SOD maul, let alone more powerful.

Prove it.

First lets go to the beginning. As a Padawan Ahsoka has already shown the ability to duel and defend against ventress who in the same duel outclassed high council member luminera. Later on Ahsoka has dueled Grievious twice and was able to briefly match him in their second duel. Where each over powered the other momentaril, grievious by way of Brute force, Ahsoka by way OF the Force lol, play on words. In SOD which is PSD maul (PSD = Post Sidious Duel), he was able to match grievious In their duel and like Ahsoka overpower him by way of the force, although more brutally. Ahsoka has fought and defeated pre viszla although no rockets were used as in mauls case. I would argue pre season 7 Ahsoka is not far off the mark from maul, keep in mind she was, like Anakin skywalker, a prodigy in the temple. By season 5 she could have become the youngest jedi knight in jedi history, beating Anakin by 2-3 years. Now approximately one year post ROTS Ahsoka is extremely powerful due to her deep connection to the force.

She was able to defeat the sixth brother with no lightsaber at all. Completely outmaneuvering him, out smarting him, and disrupting him with the force. Almost a niman form of combat.

here she redirects his blows and at points even outright deflects them using the force.

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Here she is outmaneuvering him once again and as stated easily.

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Here she is able to manipulate him using the force. Shifting him off balance, changing the grip of his blade.

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Finally, she outright kills him by connecting to his kyber crystal and causinig it to overload the hilt and explode

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The point is by rebels Ahsoka is extremely skilled, powerful and can use the force combatively but in a very subtly way...this is dangerous. Yes maul killed the seventh sister and the fifth brother however Ahsoka has literally toyed and played with the same two at the same time. She could have killed either of them or both of them at almost any point if she wished. When she touched the seventh sisters lightsaber she could have overloaded the kyber crystal and instantly killed her like she did the sixth brother, but instead opted to shut it off temporarily. Ahsoka outclassed them so bad, at one point she smiled and sat in a meditative pose in the middle of the duel (Throwback to TPM qui gon)

Then there is this from sam witwer during the 2016 star wars celebration. he flat out said PSD maul cannot meet vader in rebels due to being in serious serious trouble. Basically implying maul is no match for him, yet Ahsoka is powerful and skilled enough to contend with vader both in the force and blade wise.

Loading Video...

Ok? How is that combat relevant?

and has transversed the world between worlds.

Only because Ezra pulled her through it... And that was after her fight with Vader. And again, not combat relevant.

True. However as far as bleeding the crystal not only does it show her deep connection in the force but she can overload the crystal if it in a hilt and explode a lightsaber.

As a Padawan she was able to contest with maul only leaving due to order 66 and the clone betrayal.

Lets wait and see what actually happens. In the book she had help from the clones as far as I'm aware.

True, but the book only showed her locking blades with maul once before the clones activated the ray shield. However season 7 shows a fight and we know both survived.

In their second short duel, ahsoka was out classing him. Pushing him back, attacking from all angles and keeping the pressure on him...yes I know it's just normal form 4 but ahsoka was a master.

In their short fight they were pretty much even. Ahsoka even showed strain while fighting him.

Ahsoka was holding back man. Not only was she always pushing maul back in the few sequences we saw, but even implies he must defeat kanan before he is even ready to challenge her. As we saw PSD maul stood no chance (A sly comment, but easy to believe).

Loading Video...

The fact that maul ran from Vader where as Ahsoka confronted him also shows she is stronger then him in her confidence, yes she also went to save Ezra.

Maul didn't run from Vader, he fell of the pyramid.

Maul admitted he couldn't defeat vader alone. And I believe he admitted even he ezra and kanan stand no chance. So yeah bro he was scared.

Also force Lightning is not as big an advantage as we were led to believe, if Rey can easily block it I garuantee Vader can aswell.

Rey was being amped by the past jedi.

True.

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firelordiroh

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The_Holocrom

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@firelordiroh: What's the face for? That's is not hard to believe, given that ventress has defeated Ahsoka and high council member luminera at the same time. Has dueled obiwan Kenobi and Anakin skywalker simultaneously, has quickly overwhelmed and defeated grievious, and was able to fight off A darkside enraged Quinlan Vos while showing major restraint who himself has literally almost choked out Dooku and had him begging for his life.

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firelordiroh

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#66  Edited By firelordiroh

@the_holocrom: It's hard to believe because ROTJ Luke matched Darth Vader blow for blow and any arguments of Vader "holding back" fall short when the ROTJ comic and novel dispute it.

"given that ventress has defeated Ahsoka and high council member luminera at the same time." A 14 year old Ahsoka and IIRC Luminira got the upper hand whilst blinded in one eye.

Ventress is powerful and impressive I'm not trying to down play her but Luke has a significant power and skill edge over her.

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Jerrah13

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alextheboss said:

@jerrah13: Allowing someone to win and needing something to win are two entirely different things.

Second off, I remember someone posting all of that same stuff to be before, which I guess was you, but I already countered it all, like I just did now. Don't act like because you think you won the debate means I decided to revert back to my old way of thinking. You never changed my mind because your evidence was non conclusive, so why would I have a different opinion now?

Oh are we doing that again?

allow: " to give the necessary time or opportunity for."

Just like in the last thread, you bolted the second the quotes came out. Your move.

alextheboss said:

Second off, I remember someone posting all of that same stuff to be before, which I guess was you, but I already countered it all, like I just did now.

You didn't counter anything. What happened was you disappeared and never responded.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mace-windu-vs-obi-wan-and-anakin-in-rots-fight-1916294/?page=4

It's not good to lie when there are written records showing your trail.

alextheboss said:

Don't act like because you think you won the debate means I decided to revert back to my old way of thinking. You never changed my mind because your evidence was non conclusive, so why would I have a different opinion now?

What you think and believe are irrelevant. The lore says Palps lost fair and square. You've yet to disprove it and have no canonical evidence to offer as a counter.

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DrunkHC

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#68  Edited By DrunkHC

The double standard!

If books statements are more important than feats in Star Wars then you should consider the same for other verses regardless of how ridiculous and absurd the statements are! If a character is said to be invincible by the author like Saitama (One punch man) and Databooks naruto statements where kurama is said to be a planetary threat you can't refute any of that.

Otherwise you are being a hypocrite!

Kurama planet level and Saitama invicible! after all databook and author said, it doesn't matter the feats ...

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ferriserris

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lf lt were ROTJ Vader ln ROTS Anaklns body, he would wln

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AlexTheBoss

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@the_holocrom:

Then there is this from sam witwer during the 2016 star wars celebration. he flat out said PSD maul cannot meet vader in rebels due to being in serious serious trouble. Basically implying maul is no match for him, yet Ahsoka is powerful and skilled enough to contend with vader both in the force and blade wise.

Ahsoka would have died if Ezra had not stepped through time to save her. Neither Maul or Ahsoka can beat Vader 1v1, so this statement is irrelevant.

Ahsoka was holding back man. Not only was she always pushing maul back in the few sequences we saw, but even implies he must defeat kanan before he is even ready to challenge her. As we saw PSD maul stood no chance (A sly comment, but easy to believe).

All she did was push his lightsaber back a bit. She only left Maul to fight Kanan because she needed to go save Ezra.

Maul admitted he couldn't defeat vader alone. And I believe he admitted even he ezra and kanan stand no chance. So yeah bro he was scared.

I'm sure he was a bit scared, but even though he said he couldn't defeat Vader alone, he ended up turning on his allies anyways, even though he knew Vader was there.

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AlexTheBoss

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@jerrah13:

allow: " to give the necessary time or opportunity for."

Just like in the last thread, you bolted the second the quotes came out. Your move.

You must not understand the English language, because that definition didn't contradict anything I said.

You didn't counter anything. What happened was you disappeared and never responded.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mace-windu-vs-obi-wan-and-anakin-in-rots-fight-1916294/?page=4

It's not good to lie when there are written records showing your trail.

I must have missed that, but you didn't say anything groundbreaking in that post. Everything you said there was already addressed before, you just brought it back up again.

The lore says Palps lost fair and square.

The lore said Snoke was an ancient force user older than the empire, and then the new movie changed that.

You've yet to disprove it and have no canonical evidence to offer as a counter.

The new movie showed Palpatine getting his wrinkled face again. His new body was confirmed to be a clone, it didn't have the scars, but when he got back to full power he got his old face back. Please explain why his face would get the same look even though it wasn't hit by lightning. The only logical explanation is that massive amounts of dark side power transforms someone's body like that. Nobody hit with force lightning but Palpatine ever got that same look, which also implies that's just his dark side degradation look. We saw what deadly force lightning does to him, and hit melted his face off, it didn't make him look evil.

As for Palpatine throwing the lightsaber duel, there isn't as much solid evidence, but there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence. Anyone who read the lords of the sith novel would know that Palpatine should have had the power to plan that entire thing out. The fact Anakin showed up right when he lost is either a huge coincidence, or a part of Paplatine's plan. Considering everything went EXACTLY as Palpatine wanted, it is more likely that it was his plan. If you want to say Mace won the duel, I'm completely fine with that opinion, but there is definitely compelling evidence of the opposite.

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Jerrah13

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alextheboss said:

You must not understand the English language, because that definition didn't contradict anything I said.

Actually it does. But props for showing everyone your fundamental inability to comprehend the basic definition of a word.

alextheboss said:

I must have missed that, but you didn't say anything groundbreaking in that post. Everything you said there was already addressed before, you just brought it back up again.

Correction, you chose to forget about it due to being unable to provide any form of citation or factual evidence to support your denial and personal conjecture; just as you are here.

alextheboss said:

The lore said Snoke was an ancient force user older than the empire, and then the new movie changed that.

Irrelevant to this discussion, but nice attempt at moving the goal post.

alextheboss said:

The new movie showed Palpatine getting his wrinkled face again. His new body was confirmed to be a clone, it didn't have the scars, but when he got back to full power he got his old face back. Please explain why his face would get the same look even though it wasn't hit by lightning. The only logical explanation is that massive amounts of dark side power transforms someone's body like that. Nobody hit with force lightning but Palpatine ever got that same look, which also implies that's just his dark side degradation look. We saw what deadly force lightning does to him, and hit melted his face off, it didn't make him look evil.

Wrong again, as quoted in the above material, and Secrets of the Jedi. Lightning causes scarring and disfigurement. You pretending it doesn't has no bearing on what the actual story confirms.

alextheboss said:

As for Palpatine throwing the lightsaber duel, there isn't as much solid evidence, but there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence.

Solid evidence = Everything I quoted confirming he didn't throw the fight.

Circumstantial evidence = You covering your eyes and turning away from the lore that proves you wrong.

alextheboss said:

Anyone who read the lords of the sith novel would know that Palpatine should have had the power to plan that entire thing out. The fact Anakin showed up right when he lost is either a huge coincidence, or a part of Paplatine's plan. Considering everything went EXACTLY as Palpatine wanted, it is more likely that it was his plan.

Except the part where he was legitimately disarmed, maimed by his own attack and at Mace's mercy, yeah it all went to plan.

alextheboss said:

If you want to say Mace won the duel, I'm completely fine with that opinion, but there is definitely compelling evidence of the opposite.

Except it's not an opinion, but a fact that's been definitively proven. Now like you were offered before, post up some quotes and references of that "compelling evidence" you have, ones that are officially licensed by Disney and not just your denial-filled fanfic and speculation.

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: I agree, I don't think either of them are on Dooku's level. But Dooku was clearly having trouble dealing with both of them at once.

It is mostly because of him having to divide his attention. This difficulty is not present because of the combatants' skill but just for the fact there are two of them. Individually, Dooku is a tier or tiers above either one.

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AlexTheBoss

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MyGod000

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@mygod000:

Again, I never said he pinned him for 2 mins. I asked you where was it ever said he was held for a minute since you said I said this. I asked a legit Question, How was he surprised for 2 mins. You are lying again.

Dude wtf...

The conversation went like this. You said Vader overpowered Palpatine with the force. Then I said it was because Palpatine was surprised. Then you asked how he could be surprised for a whole two minutes, which would imply you meant that's how long Vader was overpowering for. When I called you out for it on that thread you never even said that wasn't what you meant.

So no, you are either completely confused on what you actually said, or you are desperately trying to continue your lie even though I flat out showed you what you said.

So what is so irrational about that?

You said I was bias for going on a bunch of threads saying a certain thing, but that's what you are also doing. So trying to prove I'm the bias one by saying I do something that you also do is irrational. I didn't say what you were actually said in those threads were irrational. Your lack of reading comprehension is what keeps taking our debate off topic. You probably still don't even know what I mean and will say something else that's completely irrelevant in the next post.

Why do you lie so much?

At this point I think I'm just debating with a child. I asked you for your age before and you didn't answer so I assume you are young.

then why are you making claims that you can't even back up or prove? THAT IS THE Definition of Headcanon.

I'm not making the claim you are. You are saying Mace beat Palpatine. I'm not claiming Palpatine definitely threw the fight, I'm saying we don't know for sure so we can't use it as an anti feat. There is plenty of evidence to back this up, so it isn't head canon. It would only be head canon if I said it was a fact.

you make no sense what so ever, He lost to Mace. ROTS Dark side Amp Anakin>>Mace Windu

If Mace actually won, that would just mean he is better than Anakin.

yes he is, the proof is above when he did Something Yoda didn't do.

Yoda would have beaten Dooku if the fight kept going.

Yoda is almost 900 years old and can still out duel 98% of the Jedi Order who are in their prime by just using the force.

Yeah, but when he was really old, like in the original trilogy, he seemed past his prime.

i already showed you Anakin taking on both Dooku and Ventress and out running them.

When did you show this? And out running them doesn't mean he is stronger. It just means he can run faster.

And when two people work together they don't run faster.

Yea he beat him, just like Rey Beat Kylo even those it stated Kylo was massively more powerful than she was in multiple source.

Kylo was also injured. Anakin wasn't. Obi-wan was also mentally unstable considering he was fighting his best friend who just betrayed him.

Just because Obi-wan lured Anakin into doing something Foolish to beat him doesn't mean anakin isn't way more powerful than he is.

I agree Anakin was stronger, but even in their force push clash they were even. Obi-wan was almost as good as Anakin, but Anakin was a bit better but let his cockyness get the better of him.

novel implied that Sidious was "All" the Sith long before TROS after he killed his master.

Regardless of Rey being a Conduit for the Jedi, Sidious was already All of the Sith even when he fought Mace.

Ok? That either means all of the sith are weak or he wasn't using their power at that time/holding back. Regardless of his power, all jedi Rey is stronger than regular Rey.

That makes no sense what you just said how is he going to get caught of guard?

I mean in the middle of the fight he can try to surprise him with lightning like he did with Yoda, which knocked Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand.

and why didn't he just do that with Mace?

Because I don't think Palpatine wanted to beat Mace Windu until Anakin showed up.

I know what I said, But Don't strawman me. I asked how was he surprise for 2 mins. which was a Legit Question. the time was just me throwing a number out their as it was never said how long Sidious was like that in that position.

overall, All of this is irrelevant. Your argument is pretty irrelevant, because Mace windu Beat ROTS Sidious. So far, you don't have anything to dismiss that in your argument but Assumptions. By Vader being leagues more powerful than Mace windu to the point Lords Of the Sith Vader would beat the crap out of Mace Windu there is no way ROTS Sidious Beats Any Version of Vader past Lords of the Sith.

what you just said is an assumption, for all intents and proposes, Sidious was actively trying to kill Mace in that fight, and failed because of Maces Defense and skill. even if you go back to Old Canon it stated that Mace, Yoda and Sidious are on par. However, That is old Canon...in New Canon ROTS Sidious>=Yoda>dark side amp Mace Windu. Occam's razor agrees that ROTS Sidious Lost to Mace.

This what was said by the people who make the new canon in Star wars.

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Topcomment states: I Guess it's sort of like sports. one team may rank higher than another but that doesn't mean the lower ranked team can't win the game.

Even those Mace is weaker than Sidious it doesn't mean he can't beat Sidious. Which how Star wars has always been in a sense. the Strongest doesn't always win. Examples: TPM Maul Vs Obi-wan, ROTS Anakin Vs Obi-wan, ROTJ Vader Vs Luke, Kanan Vs Maul.

those are all Examples of the stronger fighters losing the fight to weaker opponents in star wars.

If a Dark side amp Mace was able to beat ROTS Sidious, than a Dark side Amp Anakin who is way more powerful than Mace would ever get to is definitely beats ROTS Sidious.

Vader isn't Anakin, he knows what Sidious can do, there is literally no way ROTS Sidious is catching him off Guard...Especially a Rebels or ROTJ Vader who is massively more powerful than Mace and Suit Vader from ROTS.

I said the only Way ROTS Sidious can even have a chance of winning this fight is if he can somehow Damage Vaders suit and make it shut down. That is the only way ROTS Sidious is winning otherwise Vader is going to dominate and Crush This Sidious handily.

There is nothing you've said in the months that you've been on this thread is changing that. ROTS Sidious Lost to Mace and no amount of Mental Gymnastic changing that.

Lords of the Sith Vader>>Mace Windu

Rebels Vader>>Lords of the Sith Vader.

ROTJ Vader>>Rebels Vader.

Now, your Concession is accepted.

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The_Holocrom

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@void_reborn: not neccasarily true. Sidious duel with mace and the other 3 masters prove that. It doesn't matter how many you bring, of course to a reasonable degree, if the disparity in power and skill between the single combatant against the multitude is large enough then the multitude fall off over the course of the duel with only those within range of said power lasting.

Examples:

1) Sidious taking out the three masters within seconds in ep 3.

2) Anakin taking out two Jedi within seconds while fighting the battlemaster of the order.

3) Maul fight with qui Gon and obiwan.

4) Sidious duel with Savage and maul at the same time.

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The_Holocrom

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#77  Edited By The_Holocrom

@jerrah13: For the Sidious vs mace fight it is a hard call honestly. Did mace defeat Sidious in single blade combat? Without a question, both the movie and novel confirm this, he disarmed Sidious and cut the lightsaber hilt in half.

The true question is was whether mace totally and utterly defeat Sidious? Did he win the larger battle outside the battle? According to the novel it seems like mace was being overwhelmed by Sidious lightning with mace calling for anakins help stating the power is to much for him with his blade being pushed back towards him and getting dangerously close to slicing his shoulder. However the book perfectly makes clear that vaapad is more then a fighting style so it was able to redirect the current back to its source, hence sidious was dying as well. So if the barrage continued would Sidious have died before maces blade was pushed back far enough to kill him? This is the ultimate question that is the deciding factor. Sadly, we may never know unless Vader or Sidious himself speaks more on the matter.

Vader pondered this question once, wondering whether his master truly was defeated or whether it was another test of his loyalty.

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Jerrah13

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The true question is was whether mace totally and utterly defeat Sidious? Did he win the larger battle outside the battle? According to the novel it seems like mace was being overwhelmed by Sidious lightning with mace calling for anakins help stating the power is to much for him with his blade being pushed back towards him and getting dangerously close to slicing his shoulder. However the book perfectly makes clear that vaapad is more then a fighting style so it was able to redirect the current back to its source, hence sidious was dying as well. So if the barrage continued would Sidious have died before maces blade was pushed back far enough to kill him? This is the ultimate question that is the deciding factor.

In Legends you can argue both sides all day. RotS Novel is non-canon in Disney, however. According to the new reference material, Mace had Palpatine completely defeated and without Anakin's interference, would have killed him.

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firelordiroh

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#79  Edited By firelordiroh

Even legends arguments of Palpatine holding back fall short when there are G-canon quotes of Mace being on Palpatine's level. It all comes down to speculation so it shouldn't be discussed outside of threads that don't have Mace or Palpatine against each other.

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AlexTheBoss

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@mygod000:

I know what I said, But Don't strawman me. I asked how was he surprise for 2 mins. which was a Legit Question. the time was just me throwing a number out their as it was never said how long Sidious was like that in that position.

I said Sidiouis was pushed back because he was surprised, so the only logical reason you would say he was surprised for 2 minutes is because that's how long you thought he was held up against the wall. If that wasn't what you were talking about, then what were you?

As for the Mace Windu stuff. You haven't even proved Vader is stronger than Mace Windu. If Mace legit beat Palpatine, that means he legit has a chance of beating Vader as well. Just because you want Vader to be way stronger than Mace, that doesn't mean he is.

Either Palpatine threw the fight, and both he and Vader are stronger than Mace, or Palpatine didn't throw the fight, and Mace is on par with both Palpatine and Vader.

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MyGod000

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#81  Edited By MyGod000

@alextheboss said:

@mygod000:

I know what I said, But Don't strawman me. I asked how was he surprise for 2 mins. which was a Legit Question. the time was just me throwing a number out their as it was never said how long Sidious was like that in that position.

I said Sidiouis was pushed back because he was surprised, so the only logical reason you would say he was surprised for 2 minutes is because that's how long you thought he was held up against the wall. If that wasn't what you were talking about, then what were you?

As for the Mace Windu stuff. You haven't even proved Vader is stronger than Mace Windu. If Mace legit beat Palpatine, that means he legit has a chance of beating Vader as well. Just because you want Vader to be way stronger than Mace, that doesn't mean he is.

Either Palpatine threw the fight, and both he and Vader are stronger than Mace, or Palpatine didn't throw the fight, and Mace is on par with both Palpatine and Vader.

Again it irrelevant...because Vader is par with ROTJ Sidious who is much more powerful than ROTS Sidious.

Mace barely Beat ROTS Sidious, the fact that ROTJ Sidious is far more powerful than Mace proves Vader is way more powerful.

No Caption Provided

a weaker Vader than ROTJ Vader is able to casually pull Ships out of the sky and send them Crashing.

Vader while using the force was able to survive a planetary attack from a super weapon, something neither ROTS Sidious has not done.

Dooku was able to make Yoda Struggle with force Lightning and Vader is stated to beyond Dooku in power with the force.

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In Disney it stated Vader is light Years above Dooku, the same Dooku made Yoda Struggle. statements and Feats all put Vader massively above Mace and ROTS Sidious.

so until you stop wasting my time and show me a force feat of Mace doing what Vader did he isn't even close to Vader at all.

Vader>>>>>ROTS Sidious>Mace

Your concession is accepted.

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DrunkHC

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#82  Edited By DrunkHC

Vader is able to block and reflect a tank's blaster and can survive a natural lightning strike even with his body and cybernetics severely damaged

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Vader is fast

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Vader(rebels) is affirmed as someone without weaknesses (he is not weak against lightning force)

Vader(ROTJ)>>Vader(rebels)

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Windu is at best, a lightsaber duelist better than Sidious (ROTS) and driven by extra factors he was able to win

Windu is not comparable much less more higher than Sidious (ROTS) in using The force. Windu feats (The Force) are insignificant!

Sidious (ROTS) is superior to Yoda in the use of force

Vader (ROTJ) overcomes Sidious (ROTS) in both Force and Lightsaber in addition it surpasses it in physical strength and durability by a large margin

Vader wins

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: not neccasarily true. Sidious duel with mace and the other 3 masters prove that. It doesn't matter how many you bring, of course to a reasonable degree, if the disparity in power and skill between the single combatant against the multitude is large enough then the multitude fall off over the course of the duel with only those within range of said power lasting.

Examples:

1) Sidious taking out the three masters within seconds in ep 3.

2) Anakin taking out two Jedi within seconds while fighting the battlemaster of the order.

3) Maul fight with qui Gon and obiwan.

4) Sidious duel with Savage and maul at the same time.

The difference is that here the disparity is very much present. Those 3 masters are fodder to Sidious. He blitzed them within a second and killed Fisto in the next few seconds. Mace dueled evenly, better or worse depending on your interpretation of that scene and whether or not Palpatine threw the fight which I believe he did not.

Also, Maul was definitely having difficulty with Qui Gon and Obi-Wan.

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MyGod000

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#84  Edited By MyGod000

Mace biggest accomplishment was being able to barely defeat ROTS Sidious. Prior before that Mace was getting no sold by Maul in a duel.

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Mace probably got boost since we know TCW Sidious can defeat Maul with not much diff. From the time Maul got those Legs in the TCW to ROTS is about 6 months to over a year. If Mace got that big of a boost from that short of time then their is no way Vader is weaker than ROTS Sidious with 5-22 years of training and power growth.

In canon Vader never lost his potential.

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The_Holocrom

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@void_reborn: Well qui gon isn't a push over so I never expect maul to blitz them but eventually defeat them. Yet, that's not the point. The point is if the disparity in power and skill is large enough the other combatants will fall off, just like obi vs maul in ep 1. My point is that it is not a numbers game, but more so a power game. Hence why a the jedi in the temple could not stop skywalker even if he encountered 10 v 1 in certain instances, ofcourse neglecting clones.

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The_Holocrom

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@mygod000: The difference is intent. With Sidious mace pushed vaapad to its limit. He was not trying to arrest or capture Sidious but kill him. However maul is arguably one of the greatest duelist in star wars. Don't be fooled. TCW Sidious is honestly one of a handful of people who can defeat maul....and that is out of thousands

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The_Holocrom

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@drunkhc: I love the Vader down comics, you should have put the pic when he fought the upgraded version of grievious amd literally toys with the man

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DrunkHC

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@drunkhc: I love the Vader down comics, you should have put the pic when he fought the upgraded version of grievious amd literally toys with the man

I like Marvel comics "alternatives" more than their main titles like X-men or Avengers, besides Star Wars I like the Conan comics it seems that writers take the universe of the verse more seriously. although I’m really enjoying the current Daredevil

About Karbin he received the hype of being an improved version of Grievious but I don't take that statement seriously I mean his cybernetic body can be better but his battle experience and skill are not on par with Grievious

It is now possible to compare Vader's performance against Karbin with that of Windu against AD-W4 ...

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: Well qui gon isn't a push over so I never expect maul to blitz them but eventually defeat them. Yet, that's not the point. The point is if the disparity in power and skill is large enough the other combatants will fall off, just like obi vs maul in ep 1. My point is that it is not a numbers game, but more so a power game. Hence why a the jedi in the temple could not stop skywalker even if he encountered 10 v 1 in certain instances, ofcourse neglecting clones.

I already agreed with you on two statements. My point is that Maul is not a good example of this disparity law because Obi-Wan fell off but he was already treading close to rejoining the fight. Maul had to separate the two in order to kill one of them.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000: The difference is intent. With Sidious mace pushed vaapad to its limit. He was not trying to arrest or capture Sidious but kill him. However maul is arguably one of the greatest duelist in star wars. Don't be fooled. TCW Sidious is honestly one of a handful of people who can defeat maul....and that is out of thousands

I know that, my point is that Base Mace Was struggling against Maul. Sidious even in TCW would still be more powerful than mace. Vader is massively more powerful than maul...you can't say Mace is Massively more powerful than Maul...but he is more powerful than maul.

Any the fact that Vader is way more powerful than mace puts Vader above ROTS Sidious.

Vader being parity with ROTJ Sidious put Vader way above ROTS Sidious.

those two things alone put Vader comfortably ahead of ROTS Sidious...which is what I was trying to get that member Alex to understand.

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Void_Reborn

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@mygod000:

I know that, my point is that Base Mace Was struggling against Maul

He was not struggling lol. This is just Aayla being fodder and making it look like Maul is strong enough to handle a 2v1 with no problems. Secura is giving Mace a bad rep. If you've read the comic, the actual duel is so incredibly brief you can't actually get anything on how Mace or Maul faired against each other before the Mandalorians disrupted everything.

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Void_Reborn

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@drunkhc said:

About Karbin he received the hype of being an improved version of Grievious but I don't take that statement seriously I mean his cybernetic body can be better but his battle experience and skill are not on par with Grievious

It is now possible to compare Vader's performance against Karbin with that of Windu against AD-W4 ...

Yes. Precisely. Vader would actually have a lot of trouble with Grievous in a pure saber duel. Karbin is narcissistic fodder.

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Void_Reborn

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#93  Edited By Void_Reborn
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firelordiroh

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@void_reborn: Maul is surely in the top 25, he's arguably in the top 15.

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: Maul is surely in the top 25, he's arguably in the top 15.

I can agree with top 15 canon wise but not composite. Definitely not. Dooku, Exar Kun, Caedus, Luke, Grievous, Vader, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Bane, Sidious, Yoda, Windu, Revan, Malgus, Ahsoka, Kit Fisto and a bunch of others are arguably above him dueling wise. Some to a great degree and some by a slim advantage.

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firelordiroh

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#96  Edited By firelordiroh

@void_reborn: Even in legends Maul has greater raw skill with a saber than a good 90% of the mythos. Out of all the characters you listed only Windu, Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Grievous, Exar Kun and Anakin could be put comfortably ahead of Maul in dueling the rest is incredibly arguable. Even as far back as TPM Maul is still better than a decent majority of other force sensitives.

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Darkthunder

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Palpatine

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: Even in legends Maul has greater raw skill with a saber than a good 90% of the mythos. Out of all the characters you listed only Windu, Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Grievous, Exar Kun and Anakin could be put comfortably ahead of Maul in dueling the rest is incredibly arguable. Even as far back as TPM Maul is still better than a decent majority of other force sensitives.

99% of the mythos have never held a lightsaber in their life. Lol.

Also no, Obi-Wan and Luke with Legends feats are definitely above Maul. The rest may be arguable but there are a large number of feats suggesting they can be put above Maul. Also the other way around.

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firelordiroh

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@void_reborn:

"99% of the mythos have never held a lightsaber in their life. Lol." Lol true but I just meant the force-sensitive characters.

"Also no, Obi-Wan and Luke with Legends feats are definitely above Maul." Oh Luke definitely is a better duelist than Maul and Maul is at least equal to Obi-Wan if not slightly below him in dueling. This is really off-topic lol

OT: Vader could win in canon but that also means ROTJ Luke is at the level of the ROTS titans.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000:

I know that, my point is that Base Mace Was struggling against Maul

He was not struggling lol. This is just Aayla being fodder and making it look like Maul is strong enough to handle a 2v1 with no problems. Secura is giving Mace a bad rep. If you've read the comic, the actual duel is so incredibly brief you can't actually get anything on how Mace or Maul faired against each other before the Mandalorians disrupted everything.

It was a struggle those. I call it a struggle because if he was so far above maul, and just decided to abuse the force he would have easily raggdolled maul.

instead it was a fight which was cut short before it's conclusion, Mace also struggled with a droid as well.

I think Mace is clearly above Maul...but he isn't far above him to where he can laugh at his attempts to kill him like TCW Sidious did, Mace would struggle to kill Maul.