Darth Vader replaces Dooku in his fight with Yoda in AoTC, can he fare better?

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takenstew22

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#1  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator
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RoTJ Vader. Canon versions.

Might aswell celebrate May 4th with a SW thread.

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Grinningf0x

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Vastly

Vader is a better duelist with the added bonus of armor

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frozen

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#4 frozen  Moderator

Vastly

Vader is a better duelist with the added bonus of armor

He is below ROTS Anakin in skill, per canon sources. He's not a better duelist.

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americanspeeddemon

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I think Vader vs Yoda would be a really intense fight. I might lean Yoda winning but man it would be close.

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Grinningf0x

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@frozen: he’s also stated to be better per “multiple sources “ and actually has the feats to back it up

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frozen

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#7 frozen  Moderator

OT: Vader wins if its canon. He scales above his ROTS self in the force, who was recently confirmed as the most powerful Jedi in the prequel order. Whereas AOTC Yoda was confirmed as equal to Dooku in the force. He's no slouch in sabers either. He could lose to ROTS Yoda though, who is considerably above AOTC Yoda.

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deactivated-627d8daf1de25

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Vader > ROTS Anakin > Count Dooku, so yeah he should perform better than Yoda did assuming this is canon. Yoda as of ROTS is > Vader though.

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#9 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: he’s also stated to be better per “multiple sources “ and actually has the feats to back it up

Those sources refer to force power, not skill. He is actually confirmed as below ROTS Anakin in sabers. He beats Anakin due to the force.

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Bayman007

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Yeah, he does better.

Prime rebels Vader>post prime Vader>Dooku.

May the 4th be with Stew

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incursion2

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He does much better but he doesn't win imo

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Canon Vader is below prime Obi-Wan in skill, and therefore below Dooku. Yoda annihilates him in sabers.

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rawsos

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Idk about sources but i think Vader>RoTS Anakin>Dooku

So Vader

Also

May the 4th be with you all

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alextheboss

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I think Vader vs Yoda would be a really intense fight. I might lean Yoda winning but man it would be close.

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takenstew22

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#16  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator
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#17 frozen  Moderator
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TheSpartanB345T

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@frozen:

He is below ROTS Anakin in skill, per canon sources. He's not a better duelist.

What said this?

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killbilly

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#19 killbilly  Moderator

@frozen said:
@grinningf0x said:

Vastly

Vader is a better duelist with the added bonus of armor

He is below ROTS Anakin in skill, per canon sources.

Which ones are these?

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eslay03

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The real question is whether @takenstew22 wants to be added to the SW tag list again...lol

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takenstew22

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#21  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator

@eslay03 said:

The real question is whether @takenstew22 wants to be added to the SW tag list again...lol

The problem was just tagging me to threads where I don't know the characters lol.

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eslay03

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@eslay03 said:

The real question is whether @takenstew22 wants to be added to the SW tag list again...lol

The problem was just tagging me to threads where I don't know the characters lol.

Yeah, well there was a phase there for a while where every SW thread was dealing with characters with only a few short appearances.

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#23 frozen  Moderator

@killbilly: @thespartanb345t:

The book Skywalker A Family at War says that he is worse in sabers than his ROTS self, and that he would never get back to that level:

No Caption Provided

The same book also confirms that ROTS Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of the prequel order. So Vader (who scales above Anakin in the force) and by extension ROTJ Luke should scale above Yoda in the force:

No Caption Provided

Anakin was already shown and confirmed to be more powerful than Dooku in ROTS. While ROTS Yoda is considerably above Dooku in the force, AOTC Yoda is equalled by Dooku in the force (but not in sabers):

No Caption Provided

As far as the force goes, Vader >>> ROTS Anakin >>> AOTC Dooku = AOTC Yoda.

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Windshieldwiper

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@americanspeeddemon said:

I think Vader vs Yoda would be a really intense fight. I might lean Yoda winning but man it would be close.

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In Disney canon, Dooku is inferior to Yoda in skill, despite being on the same level as ROTS Anakin and Obi Wan who are above Vader in that aspect, per @breakofdawn & @frozen

Yoda > Dooku ~ Anakin ~ Obi Wan > Suited Vader

Darth Vader might be stronger in the force at this stage though, but its unlikely he can rag doll Yoda helplessly, once it comes down to sabers, I suspect Yoda will kill him.

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SheevSmacker

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Vader solo

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americanspeeddemon

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@frozen: I don't think those statements really are as definitive as you say. The first one doesn't seem to relate to combat abilities at all but to him being physically in his prime in that he is young and before his injuries. I don't think that has any bearing on thier lightsaber skills.

The second statement is really vague and generalized. It states Anakin has superior force power to the Jedi. That could mean he is the strongest, or that he is stronger than all combined or that he is above the average curve of the jedi. I don't think this is definitive proof that Anakin is above Yoda in the force. Yoda's scaling to RotS Sidious is probably superior to where I'd place Anakin (Just a bit but notable)

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#29  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@kirkseven: Yeah Vader is worse in sabers than Obi and Anakin, though I don't think he would lose against them in an all out fight.

Yoda has the supremacy quotes of being the best duelist as of ROTS. Though there is one quote which says Mace is the better duelist as of AOTC. All other ones which encompass ROTS say Yoda is the best duelist.

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: I don't think those statements really are as definitive as you say. The first one doesn't seem to relate to combat abilities at all but to him being physically in his prime in that he is young and before his injuries. I don't think that has any bearing on thier lightsaber skills.

The second statement is really vague and generalized. It states Anakin has superior force power to the Jedi. That could mean he is the strongest, or that he is stronger than all combined or that he is above the average curve of the jedi. I don't think this is definitive proof that Anakin is above Yoda in the force. Yoda's scaling to RotS Sidious is probably superior to where I'd place Anakin (Just a bit but notable)

The first quote is said in the context of lightsaber forms. The passage of "immortalized in his prime" is rather explicit. We also have other sources saying that Vader's suit restricted him and that he had to completely change his style to accommodate that. Factor in his showings against Ashoka and Koth and it's pretty clear that he is a worse duelist than his ROTS self, whereas ROTS Anakin flat out outduelled Dooku.

Also, ROTJ Luke was stated to be an equal to him in sabers. Luke was confirmed as below ROTS Obi Wan in sabers. So naturally, that lends even greater evidence to the argument of Anakin > Vader in skill. I do think that Vader takes a solid majority over Anakin in an all out fight though.

It's not that vague if you see the previous pages. The previous passages are talking about the order as a whole and specifically mentions Mace. So at the very least, he is above Mace in the force. I think the quote is rather clear though given that it says "superior strength" in the force. That's unequivocally clear, and the preceding passages make it further clear.

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DarthAdi

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#31  Edited By DarthAdi

@frozen: Being worse in skill doesn't necessarily mean you lose in sabers since force augumentation is a thing. Vader should likely beat Kenobi even in sabers. Probably he loses to Anakin tho (In sabers).

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DarthAdi

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#32  Edited By DarthAdi

@americanspeeddemon: There is another quote that says ROTJ Luke was less skilled than ROTS Kenobi. If you think that Luke was equal to Vader in skill, it would scale Anakin above Vader.

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#33 frozen  Moderator

@darthadi said:

@frozen: Being worse in skill doesn't necessarily mean you lose in sabers since force augumentation is a thing. Vader should beat Kenobi even in sabers. Probably he loses to Anakin tho (In sabers).

I didn't say he would lose to them, I just said he is less skilled. Agree that augmentation gives him the win.

@darthadi said:

@americanspeeddemon: There is another quote that says ROTJ Luke was less skilled than ROTS Kenobi. If you think that Luke was equal to Vader in skill, it would scale Anakin above Vader.

Yes.

We also have a quote which says ROTJ Luke was an equal to Vader in the force and in skill.

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americanspeeddemon

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@frozen: The literal next line is being young. The quote doesn't say he is better in combat skills it mentions that his youth and also is preceded by his legendary status. It seems to be a statement on his youth and virtue as being him in his prime. Yes his suit did restrict him and he did have to change his style but that doesn't mean he was worse especially since we also know he grew in power.

Where is it stated that Luke is below Obi-Wan?

Mace Windu in canon isn't anything special in terms of force potential for his tier. I'd probably already argue Anakin is probably number 2 in the jedi order in terms of force power. Can you show me the previous passage in this context I would think it is a statement that could be given to any high tier jedi.

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americanspeeddemon

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@darthadi: I mean I'd personally put Luke below Vader but I think their may be a quote somewhere that says they are equal.

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#37 frozen  Moderator

@americanspeeddemon:

The literal next line is being young. The quote doesn't say he is better in combat skills it mentions that his youth and also is preceded by his legendary status. It seems to be a statement on his youth and virtue as being him in his prime. Yes his suit did restrict him and he did have to change his style but that doesn't mean he was worse especially since we also know he grew in power.

It says "forever young" to mark a distinction between his pre-suit self and his post-suit self. That phrase works against the idea that he grew as a duelist. He will never move like a young man again. The operative phrasing here is also in relation to lightsaber forms.

Growing in power doesn't mean he became more skilled. If you look at his actual fights, he struggled with Ashoka and Koth in pure sabers. ROTS Anakin on the other hand, took on Dooku and completely outduelled him.

There's also the fact that one canon guidebook states that ROTJ Luke is an equal to ROTJ Vader in sabers and the force. Same Luke is sub ROTS Obi in skill. ROTS Anakin isn't sub Obi in skill.

Where is it stated that Luke is below Obi-Wan?

From the same book:

No Caption Provided

Mace Windu in canon isn't anything special in terms of force potential for his tier.

He is though. He beat Sidious in sabers. Sidious had blitzed 3 council members. The fact that he not only went toe to toe with him but actually beat him would require him to be close to Sidious in the force, otherwise he would have been blitzed. The force augmented his speed to match Sidious.

K'd probably already argue Anakin is probably number 2 in the jedi order in terms of force power.

I'd argue he is number one based on these pssages.

Can you show me the previous passage in this context I would think it is a statement that could be given to any high tier jedi.

The previous passages make reference to the council, which would encompass Yoda:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

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DirtyLuna

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RoTS Yoda vs prime Vader is close but a decisive win for Yoda in the end. Yoda in AoTC does not seem to be drastically weaker than in RoTS, so I think Yoda would still win, albeit with more effort.

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MyGod000

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Vader completely stomps Yoda here. He matched ROTJ Sidious in the force powers.

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#40 frozen  Moderator

@mygod000 said:

Vader completely stomps Yoda here. He matched ROTJ Sidious in the force powers.

When did he match ROTJ Sidious? He was inferior to OT Sidious. The movies make that clear and so do the recent Vader issues.

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MyGod000

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@frozen said:
@mygod000 said:

Vader completely stomps Yoda here. He matched ROTJ Sidious in the force powers.

When did he match ROTJ Sidious? He was inferior to OT Sidious. The movies make that clear and so do the recent Vader issues.

In the new Comic, where He fights of early snoke clones Creations.

Prior to that Vader matched Sidious in Raw force powers, Sidious trying to force a monster to kill itself while Vader was trying to force the monster to fight Sidious the monster ended up exploding from there force powers. Then Vader defeated 4 Clones That the comic insinuates were created by Lukes DNA from his severed Hand. It indirectly states that Snoke was also Created by Lukes DNA from his hand that Sidious stated he can create anything from.

Exegol is Just a Lab where Sidious uses Luke DNA (that he got from Vader and Lukes battle in Ep 5) to create clones and abominations from. Vader went there and wrecked all of them, then At the end Sidious offered to share the Unlimited power he gained from it with Vader.

Vader is curbstomping This Yoda, even if you put Dooku in this fight Vader still stomps them.

Anakin is only better in Light saber dueling than Vader, while Vader is far more powerful in the force.

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Its also noteworthy that Dooku was at least somewhat familiar with Yoda's fighting style, and likewise Yoda was familiar with Dooku's.

No Caption Provided

Vader on the other hand has no experience fighting characters of Yoda's stature and power in canon, he mostly fights humanoids 5-6 ft in height that are far slower than less powerful.

Dooku and Yoda is close for the same reason Obi Wan and Mustafar Vader is close, Vader's superiority to Dooku in some aspects isn't a guarantee that he'd handle Yoda with the same effectiveness.

Dooku's experience helps him out more with certain situations than Vader's would, given that he's half Dooku's age.

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#43 frozen  Moderator

@mygod000: Vader didn't match Sidious. He lost Sidious when wrestling for control of the creature. He also got curb stomped by Sidous in Vader #8. Its clear from the series and the OT films that he needs Luke to overthrow the emperor.

Vader was also matched by Luke in ROTJ, whereas Sidious fodderized Luke.

I agree that Vader is more powerful than ROTS Sheev though.

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MyGod000

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Its also noteworthy that Dooku was at least somewhat familiar with Yoda's fighting style, and likewise Yoda was familiar with Dooku's.

No Caption Provided

Vader on the other hand has no experience fighting characters of Yoda's stature and power in canon, he mostly fights humanoids 5-6 ft in height that are far slower than less powerful.

Dooku and Yoda is close for the same reason Obi Wan and Mustafar Vader is close, Vader's superiority to Dooku in some aspects isn't a guarantee that he'd handle Yoda with the same effectiveness.

Dooku's experience helps him out more with certain situations than Vader's would, given that he's half Dooku's age.

Why would this matter? Sidious had no experience fighting Against Yoda and did pretty decent.

ROTJ Vader lightsaber Skills>Sidious Lightsaber skills.

Vader Matched a far more powerful Sidious in raw Force powers. Yoda doesn't stand much of a chance here.

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americanspeeddemon

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It says "forever young" to mark a distinction between his pre-suit self and his post-suit self. That phrase works against the idea that he grew as a duelist. He will never move like a young man again. The operative phrasing here is also in relation to lightsaber forms.

Forever young is a qualification on the previous statement of being in his prime. It is showing what they mean when they say that he was in his prime. The quote also follows a sentence on Anakin being a legendary hero. Again it seems to refer to Anakin's prime both in an age sense but also morally. This prime Anakin is the idealized version of Anakin, its him at his best as a character. At least that's how it reads to me.

Growing in power doesn't mean he became more skilled. If you look at his actual fights, he struggled with Ashoka and Koth in pure sabers. ROTS Anakin on the other hand, took on Dooku and completely outduelled him.

I mean Anakin struggled with Dooku around the same amount if not more than Vader did with Ahsoka.

There's also the fact that one canon guidebook states that ROTJ Luke is an equal to ROTJ Vader in sabers and the force. Same Luke is sub ROTS Obi in skill. ROTS Anakin isn't sub Obi in skill.

Where is it stated that Luke is below Obi-Wan?

From the same book:

No Caption Provided

This is a pretty direct statement though we start getting into issues with scaling. Their are statements that claim Old Ben is stronger than Obi-Wan as a swordsman and Vader was above him. This leads to two completely contradictory scalings:

  • Anakin>=Obi-Wan>Luke=Vader
  • Vader=Luke>Old Ben>Obi-Wan

I'm not sure how to resolve this conflict actually. I obviously want to believe the one that supports my argument but meh, i'm at an impasse.

Mace Windu in canon isn't anything special in terms of force potential for his tier.

He is though. He beat Sidious in sabers. Sidious had blitzed 3 council members. The fact that he not only went toe to toe with him but actually beat him would require him to be close to Sidious in the force, otherwise he would have been blitzed. The force augmented his speed to match Sidious.

Yeah but anyone on his tier could do that and most people on his tier are still better force users.

K'd probably already argue Anakin is probably number 2 in the jedi order in terms of force power.

I'd argue he is number one based on these pssages.

Can you show me the previous passage in this context I would think it is a statement that could be given to any high tier jedi.

The previous passages make reference to the council, which would encompass Yoda:

Even with the previous passages it doesn't seem clear to me. The quote about his strength in the force seems unqualified. It is very open ended on what it entails, it could be the jedi or specifically the council. But to me it seems a general statement that Anakin has superior strength in the force in general. That's just my reading I can't see how this ties back to the Council or Mace Windu personally.

Even if it was read as so, doesn't it contradict RotS where Yoda states Sidious is too powerful for Obi-Wan to fight and Sidious states Anakin will become more powerful than either him or Yoda, implying that he wasn't yet more powerful. I guess strength could refer to potential as most argue it does in TLJ (I've seen this raw strength only once before) or it could be Anakin has a lot of raw force strength but not the skill to use it effectively. I'm again unsure. What are your thoughts on this?

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@mygod000 said:
@kirkseven said:

Its also noteworthy that Dooku was at least somewhat familiar with Yoda's fighting style, and likewise Yoda was familiar with Dooku's.

No Caption Provided

Vader on the other hand has no experience fighting characters of Yoda's stature and power in canon, he mostly fights humanoids 5-6 ft in height that are far slower than less powerful.

Dooku and Yoda is close for the same reason Obi Wan and Mustafar Vader is close, Vader's superiority to Dooku in some aspects isn't a guarantee that he'd handle Yoda with the same effectiveness.

Dooku's experience helps him out more with certain situations than Vader's would, given that he's half Dooku's age.

Why would this matter? Sidious had no experience fighting Against Yoda and did pretty decent.

ROTJ Vader lightsaber Skills>Sidious Lightsaber skills.

Vader Matched a far more powerful Sidious in raw Force powers. Yoda doesn't stand much of a chance here.

Because Sidious is more powerful than Dooku? He handled Yoda for different reasons than Dooku did.

Source? direct comparison? or speculation?

Depending on how your argument with Frozen goes, I'll watch and see if that's the case.

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#47  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@kirkseven: Vader didn't even match Sidious lol. Sidious curb stomped him in issue 8 of the Vader series and then in issue 11 beat Vader when they both wrested for control of the Summa-verminoth creature. Vader was unable to stop Sidious killing the creature.

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killbilly

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#48  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

@frozen: Thanks.

OT: Vader. ANH Vader > Rebels Vader > Lords of the Sith Vader > Anakin > Yoda.

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@frozen: Yeah, I never said he was?

EDIT: Nvm I think you're backing up my stance with the comparison.

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#50  Edited By MyGod000

@frozen said:

@mygod000: Vader didn't match Sidious. He lost Sidious when wrestling for control of the creature. He also got curb stomped by Sidous in Vader #8. Its clear from the series and the OT films that he needs Luke to overthrow the emperor.

Vader was also matched by Luke in ROTJ, whereas Sidious fodderized Luke.

I agree that Vader is more powerful than ROTS Sheev though.

Vader didn't match Sidious. He lost Sidious when wrestling for control of the creature.

No, the Creature exploded from their Combined force powers, Sidious was trying to get the Creature to Kill itself. My point here is Sidious was unable to overpower Vader's Force powers to make the Creature Kill itself, instead the creature exploded from their force powers. That is basically a Tie.

He also got curb stomped by Sidous in Vader #8.

Against a Vader That sidious said was Weakened by His emotions and Lost his way. How is that Even Relevant here when Vader has found new found Hate for Sidious...It stated that Hate leads to more power?

Its clear from the series and the OT films that he needs Luke to overthrow the emperor.

That what he Thinks, But in reality It was verbatim stated Vader has the power to Kill Sidious in the new issue comic.

Vader was also matched by Luke in ROTJ, whereas Sidious fodderized Luke.

That was a conflicted Vader. That is a completely moot point now, Vader was able to kill 4 abominations created by Luke's DNA. You Honestly think he couldn't do the Same to Luke if it wasn't for the Fact that was his son?

I agree that Vader is more powerful than ROTS Sheev though.

That fine, But you also think ROTJ Luke is more powerful than ROTS Sheev if you think Luke can actually Match ROTJ Vader and use that as a Serious argument.

Yes, Vader is above ROTS Sidious, As It was shown He can Kill 4 Abominations created from Luke's DNA, the same DNA that created Snoke, and Match Near ROTJ Sidious in raw force powers.