Darth Vader(Rebels) vs Anakin Skywalker(TCW)

Darth Vader, Star Wars Rebels

Anakin Skywalker, The Clone Wars

• Anakin as of TCW, season 5
• Vader as of his duel on Malachor
• In character
• Canon only
• Petrenaki Arena
• 5 meters starting distance
• Zero knowledge of each other whatsoever
• Physical fight, no Force usage beyond mid-fight shoving & augmentation

Round 1: Anakin is at his base level

Round 2: Anakin is angry, can become angrier

Callouts:

@void_reborn, @lord_tenebrous, @theoverdaddy, @thebluedragon20,

@anakinvader99, @dirtyluna, @erkanbeater, @kbroskywalker, @alextheboss,

@willvalentine2:@red12789:@palpatine005:@subline: @silentnightz: @mygod000:

@drunkhc:@emmafrostxmen: @flolikeyou:@subline:@ct-5555:@kirkseven:@g_race:

@windshieldwiper:@mrsportsguy13:@gangorca:@bayman007:@blackpantherisb:

@rdcdesmond:@spinach:@hittheassasin:@darthadi:@lord_god:@eslay03:

@dothetwist_:@yousufkhan1212:@citgo:@commanderming1:@boutatakeanl:

@richard96:@breakofdawn:@ffs91:

In canon, Vader is supposed to have become more powerful when going into his suit. He wins every time, even if TCW Ani is enraged.

Anakin dies in round 1.

Vader probably dies in round 2.

I feel like even ROTS Anakin enraged would have difficulty with Vader, not just because of his strength abuse being useless but because Vader knows how he fights, and is more patient/calculative.

Ironically, Vader is like the best Anakin counter.

As far as I know, the only source for Vader becoming more powerful is Vader himself.

Even so, 14 BBY Vader was stalemated by Eeth Koth in sabers, so I'd argue that even by Rebels he's not as good as Anakin (who was one of the finest swordsmen in the Order, up there with the top 5) given that he didn't face any real threats after that until Rebels. He's stronger, but he's not as agile or nimble, and that'll be a problem.

I'll give it to Vader in an amazing fight, simply because of his strength and (potentially) greater power.

@void_reborn: OP says neither have any knowledge of each other

Vader. I don’t think Rebels Vader was much weaker than Vader in his prime.

Agreed. RotS Anakin would give Vader a great fight. RotS Anakin in Round 2 has a decent chance of winning a few rounds, as he is basically Knightfall Vader.

Without knowledge Anakin’s impulsive nature combined with Vader’s calculated approach does the Jedi in. Vader decisively.

This purely a duel correct? In that case:

R1:Their skill is pretty even with each other, Vader is a tiny bit more refined at this point, but he also has less mobility, and is pretty solid in his stance IE- he doesn't move around much. Vader is also a little bit stronger. Anakin on the other hand is faster and has more mobility. What I think wins it for Vader is his tactical mind, and his cold outlook

Vader 6/10

R2: This time Anakin wins in a very tough fight. With his anger, he gets more focus and almost negates any strength advantage Vader might have. He also get more tenacious, he never stops coming and is constantly offensively trying to destroy his opponent which will not give Vader time to analyze a strategy.

Anakin 6/10

@breakofdawn:

There is this quote.

“This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thrist for revenge.” — Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2016).

Good find. Yeah, Vader wins in a great fight.

To be fair, that only applies to ANH Vader. This isn't him.

There's a case for Rebels Vader being > ANH Vader, given that Rebels is stated by Hidalgo to be his emotional prime. His power might have grown, but his ability to apply that power might not have, as was the case after ANH.

@void_reborn said:

Vader wins every round, Vader being calm and collective vs an impatient version of his self.

Precisely.

Vader stomps.

Vader stomps and Lucas cries that his words don't matter anymore

@void_reborn said:

Well that doesn't really mater because ROTS Anakin unlike TCW has enough strength to compete if not surpass Vader with a significant difference in speed much greater than anyone Vader ever fought plus an added force counter and we have a mismatch with Vader.

Anakin is actually is a very bad match up for Vader at least in Legends where he is explored.

Vader has the hype advantage of being stronger while Anakin has the actual feats to prove he is superior.

On topic Anakin gets stomped this is probably the fourth weakest version of Anakin next to Canon ATOC Anakin, canon TPM Anakin and Legends TPM Anakin.

This is an accurate conclusion.

@greysentinel365: Even so.

Legends Sith Anakin > Legends Vader > Legends Anakin pre RoTS.

@camilopezo: Ummmm no. As per G-Canon in legends Vader is perma locked as far below Anakin. In fact far below even Qui-Gon Jinn by other sources.

So more accurately Sith Anakin >>>> Jedi Anakin >>>>>>> Vader in Legends.

@breakofdawn:

There's a case for Rebels Vader being > ANH Vader, given that Rebels is stated by Hidalgo to be his emotional prime. His power might have grown, but his ability to apply that power might not have, as was the case after ANH.

The identity of Vader being at its most firm does not translate to his power being at its best.

@greysentinel365 said:

@camilopezo: Ummmm no. As per G-Canon in legends Vader is perma locked as far below Anakin. In fact far below even Qui-Gon Jinn by other sources.

So more accurately Sith Anakin >>>> Jedi Anakin >>>>>>> Vader in Legends.

And so you've got a single (presumably post-prequel) quote from Lucas that I would love to see audio/video for, versus clear intent that Lucas committed to film -- Vader stating in Episode IV that he has improved since his last encounter with Obi-Wan.

@lord_tenebrous:

And so you've got a single (presumably post-prequel) quote from Lucas that I would love to see audio/video for

versus clear intent that Lucas committed to film

Lucas considering Vader an old weak cripple, especially in comparison to Anakin is one the most consistent stances in the verse. And if you read the comment I linked there's Pablo (who's job in that interview was to answer in Georges stead) noting that AoTC Anakin (the interview is from 2003) is better than Vader. He also notes that his equal/superior in RotJ Luke is "not that strong of a Jedi"

I wonder where Pablo got that viewpoint from? Who could have given it too him?

Vader stating in Episode IV that he has improved since his last encounter with Obi-Wan.

Vader saying he has gotten better doesn't mean it was Lucas' intent for him to be better than Anakin. It just means Vader thinks he is. Which considering every commentary Lucas has ever given on the ANH fight has been "an old man vs a cripple" I think it's clear what his intent was.

Also if you want to play this game the next line is Kenobi saying "only a master of evil". Which is clearly Lucas indicating he's lying /s

Vader is trash wherever Lucas holds any authority. And far beneath Anakin even by AotC

@greysentinel365:

Lucas considering Vader an old weak cripple, especially in comparison to Anakin is one the most consistent stances in the verse. And if you read the comment I linked there's Pablo (who's job in that interview was to answer in Georges stead) noting that AoTC Anakin (the interview is from 2003) is better than Vader. He also notes that his equal/superior in RotJ Luke is "not that strong of a Jedi"

I wonder where Pablo got that viewpoint from? Who could have given it too him?

Given that the film commentary quote has been sourced, there's no point in me disputing the above claims beyond being needlessly argumentative.

Vader saying he has gotten better doesn't mean it was Lucas' intent for him to be better than Anakin. It just means Vader thinks he is.

For this to be true you would have to endorse the idea that:

A) Lucas was throwing out 210%, ludicrously erroneous dialogue that does nothing other than mislead the audience for no reason.

B) Vader is hilariously delusional, with an incredibly ignorant take on his own abilities

Which considering every commentary Lucas has ever given on the ANH fight has been "an old man vs a cripple" I think it's clear what his intent was.

You cannot very well take prequel-era quotes and contend they're representative of Lucas' ever-changing intent when he created the original trilogy.

Also if you want to play this game the next line is Kenobi saying "only a master of evil". Which is clearly Lucas indicating he's lying /s

If you're being sarcastic there's no reason to bring this up. Kenobi is just retorting, and hasn't even fought Vader yet. He cannot judge skills he has not tested or witnessed.

And so like I said before, we have Lucas' intent as of the prequels, that Vader is far from the power level of his ROTS incarnation, and we have Lucas' intent as of the OT, with Vader being written as confidently boasting about how he has been waiting ages to face his old master again and has decisively improved since their last encounter. One was committed to film, the other was not.

Anakin has no feats above Vader in strength even if we are to include Legends continuity.

@lord_tenebrous:

A) Lucas was throwing out 210%, ludicrously erroneous dialogue that does nothing other than mislead the audience for no reason.

B) Vader is hilariously delusional, with an incredibly ignorant take on his own abilities

A) Unless you have a window into his head you have no idea what George meant by that line. But every. Single. Interview and source of Lucas has made it clear what he thought of that fight. It an old man and a cripple. If you have anything to contradict this feel free.

But it seems like your trying to argue with the ultimate authority of SW for no the hell reason other than your own interpretation.

B) Vader is not so much delusional as he is boasting. Ultimately it's ambiguous. But thankfully Lucas has clarified for us.

And so like I said before, we have Lucas' intent as of the prequels, that Vader is far from the power level of his ROTS incarnation, and we have Lucas' intent as of the OT

And his OT views (prove it beyond one ambiguous piece of dialogue) supersede his prequel ones because? Again, Lucas has been very consistent in his terming of Vader in comparison to Anakin.

with Vader being written as confidently boasting about how he has been waiting ages to face his old master again and has decisively improved since their last encounter. One was committed to film, the other was not.

This is just your subjective take on one line Vader is throwing out as trash talk in a fight.

1. Prove Lucas meant it that way

2. Prove why that would outweigh every single other time Lucas has clarified that Vader is and has always been a crippled half-machine far weaker than Anakin.

@greysentinel365:

A) Unless you have a window into his head you have no idea what George meant by that line.

Now here's a guess: he meant what he wrote.

But every. Single. Interview and source of Lucas has made it clear what he thought of that fight. It an old man and a cripple.

You're just needlessly regurgitating acknowledged statements when you should be focused on the point of dissent.

If you have anything to contradict this feel free.

The movie is a good start.

But it seems like your trying to argue with the ultimate authority of SW for no the hell reason other than your own interpretation.

Needless jabs are needless jabs. Try and stay focused here.

B) Vader is not so much delusional as he is boasting. Ultimately it's ambiguous.

And by "ambiguous", you mean Vader states that he has been awaiting another confrontation with Obi-Wan and is more formidable than ever. Yes, very ambiguous. And if Vader believes himself decisively superior to his former self when in fact he is vastly inferior, yes that would make him hilariously delusional.

But thankfully Lucas has clarified for us.

Just like he "clarified" that Yoda was in reality a real Jedi, and that Padme died in childbirth. Ah, no, my bad, he changed his mind, as he is known for.

And his OT views supersede his prequel ones because?

This is just your subjective take on one line Vader is throwing out as trash talk in a fight.

"Trash talk"

Vader states that he has been preparing for a second encounter with Obi-Wan for a long time and is better than ever.

1. Prove Lucas meant it that way

Him writing it that way is a good indicator.

2. Prove why that would outweigh every single other time Lucas has clarified that Vader is and has always been a crippled half-machine far weaker than Anakin.

Intent that went into the film would clearly trump intent that was not present in the film as the films overrule even Lucas.

We have Lucas, setting up for the climatic showdown between the old mentor and the big villain, who have a history, writing Vader as talking about how he's been waiting for this rematch a long time and is decisively stronger than before. Clear as day signaling that Vader is as good as ever, conveying facts through dialogue.

But no, to the contrary of the film dialogue, Vader is in fact vastly past his prime and thus we are being mislead by a delusional Vader who is written as delusional by Lucas because he who is known for altering his ideas after committing them to film said many years later that Vader wasn't nearly as good then as he was during the movies that didn't exist yet.

I had no idea the gymnastics sections of the Olympics were already accepting tryouts.

Never change Tene.

Right.

(George Lucas, circa 1970s)

"I have been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."

The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes. Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound.

...

Vader and Ben Kenobi continue their powerful duel. As they hit their lightsabers together, lightning flashes on impact. Troopers look on in interest as the old Jedi and Dark Lord of The Sith fight.

Oh no, that's all just ambiguous, what mental gymnastics! Don't you see? Years later, Lucas says that they're weak, vastly past-prime cripples! So he never saw them in any other way, no matter what his past writings indicate.

I literally said "his power might have grown, but his ability to apply that power might not have".

@void_reborn said:

What has this Vader done to suggest he is significantly stronger than Anakin? Both have destroyed stone and have physically manhandle people before and Anakin has also been declared the physically strongest jedi among people like Mace, Yoda, Obi-wan and plenty of others. Anakin has also shown feats like overpowering Dooku who has better strength feats than anyone Vader fought.

@lord_tenebrous said:

Right.

(George Lucas, circa 1970s)

"I have been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."

The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes. Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound.

...

Vader and Ben Kenobi continue their powerful duel. As they hit their lightsabers together, lightning flashes on impact. Troopers look on in interest as the old Jedi and Dark Lord of The Sith fight.

Oh no, that's all just ambiguous, what mental gymnastics! Don't you see? Years later, Lucas says that they're weak, vastly past-prime cripples! So he never saw them in any other way, no matter what his past writings indicate.

I don't think anyone denies that hell that was before he changed Vader to Anakin so it's not like he had perfect idea of Vader and during that time he wasn't even sure there would be more than one movie. George later retconned they are weaker sure it's a retcon but it's more a clear idea of what he wants to write and actually makes more sense in the grand scheme of things compared to Vader getting stronger than Anakin but not killing Palpatine anyways despite the fact he could.

Vader is fr the perfect Anakin counter tbh.

Indeed

@anakinvader99 Vader physically broke through and tore apart a massive metal door:

This is a similar but even higher level feat than Durge beating Anakin through this metal door:

Here Vader proves to be stronger than the Lylek Queen, blocking one of her massive tentacles with one hand and overpowering her:

Desperately, instinctively, she drove the spiked, poisoned tip of another tentacle at his chest.

Enmeshed in the Force, he caught the spike in his gauntleted fist and stopped it before it reached his armor. He grunted with pain, with exertion, the thick, muscular appendage of the giant creature straining against his Force-fueled strength. He was the stronger, and stared into her face as his lightsaber tore through her innards and his Master's lightning charred her flesh.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Lyleks are enormous apex predators on Ryloth who have skin impervious to blaster fire and are difficult to cut through with a lightsaber. Their size is greater than that of the Felucian Acklay and the Lylek Queen is the greatest beast among their hive, possessing larger size, superior strength, speed and a more lethal biological arsenal of spikes, tentacles, poison and sharp teeth.

Anakin doesn't have any comparable strength feats.

Btw @lord_tenebrous this thread is in the wrong category. Should be in VSbattles.

Why are Legends feats being used for Canon?

Because I challenged him on the fact that Anakin even with Legends feats isn't on Vader's level of physical strength.

...